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  1. #1
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    ok, so you got a beef with weight weenies?

    First of all, I'll just comment on the fact that I've just been noticing (ongoing since joining mtbr) the ridiculous hate towards these claimed and coined "weight weenies".... seriously, what is the deal? is it just part of the American underlying ideals that some were brought up with, that MORE is automatically better, or somehow more masculine as well? garbage if you ask me...
    the entire point of this thread I'm putting up here is the fact that I've always been into checking out new parts that are hitting the market or being designed, but I have been very intrigued with the BMX parts in particular. (this may end up being a long post, but I just feel like ranting on these thoughts and ponderings, sorry for drawing it out).

    Anyway, this year, among others, it seems that the BMX'ers, 99% of pros and manufacturers included, are the BIGGEST "WEIGHT WEENIES" of them all right now! and I DIG it!
    these guys are taking what they like (not necessarily what we like) from each aspect of biking, and using it in their advantage, and shredding! urban/dj/park mtb'ers are just struggling to keep up with the stuff they throw down on their simple "little" bikes.
    For the first example, take a look at Tree Bicycle Company. They have some super innovative parts coming up, which all started with their very light and simple sprocket a few years ago (even evil4BC had them custom make him one for a 9-spd chain, which I drooled over quite a bit) Tree:
    - Bar-ends that thread into tapped handlebar bores, so simple and strong, why not?
    - 1 piece steerer preload bolt and top cap combined. why are ours separate pcs?
    - and best of all, what I'm looking at picking up next, is their "Lite" sprocket that doesn't use a bolt to attach to the crank-arm, but is machined with a 48spline pattern to connect and mate up directly to your spindle! SICK. so light and machined out, the I-beam machining on those is just pure art!!!! but of course, still tough.
    - they also have some sick new hubs coming out.
    http://www.treebicycleco.com/newspg.html - look around, nice stuff. man, can't get over the art and function all combined up in that Lite sprocket...
    photo courtesy of their site... check it out, sweet stuff.

    And, speaking of hubs, the bmx SS cassette hubs with 1-pc drivers (optional ti too) are amazing, so simple, awesome direct engagement, and still half the price of ridiculous chris blings. not saying they are light though, but still.... better than a nashbar SS hub, haha.
    Next, I would just like to mention the Macneil Seat and post innovation, that is just so simple and light why wasn't it thought of earlier, man.... I like that one too.
    Take a look at Eastern bikes too, first with the Harvester, now the Grim Reaper and some others... These are "speed-hole" drilled out to the max! and integrated seatpost clamp too. oh, whose using that now? oh, hey, it's blackmarket on the mob. not that it hasn't been used for like 30 years on old bikes too, but who brought it back?



    http://www.easternbikes.com/ - just go to "frames" tab, and look at the grim reaper. The grim reaper even has more cut-out sections. hey, my frame isn't under warranty, since it was a proto anyway, I've thought of attempting some sort of speed hole wizardry myself. maybe over winter.

    Take note, current bmx'ers also have no shame in rocking the integrated headsets which 99% of the mtb world shunned as a roadie part and horrible on top of it, including the notorious chris bling! (they just want people to cater to them and their perdido shict) now look whose using it, oh, mtb'ers! after watching bmx convert almost immediately.
    Next comes the Spanish BB, which, in fact was designed by bmx'ers. just press it in! simple and light, yet again, hey, now mtb is using it, which makes me glad to see.
    Now, also, I have been seeing some pros who have actually been drilling out their rims, like Trials riders. here, we have suspension, and we're all worried about taco'ing a rim cuz our diameters are so huge, so we need more beef, etc... but, then they guys take theirs and drill out unnecessary metal.... and still are landing like 10ft drops to flat on cement. very interesting.... speed holes strike again!
    here is a link to one example of a "weight weenie" bmx rig:
    http://www.simplebmx.com/bikecheckmitchsite.htm - just note his drilled rims!

    Now, look at this guy's bike:
    http://www.simplebmx.com/bikecheckjimmysite.htm
    Check out his hubs. hard to tell to most, but the guy actually cut down his heavy 14mm rear axle, drilled it out on each end, then tapped it so he could eliminate using heavy bolts and the extra axle sticking out. similar to "fun bolts" idea front too.
    He also went through the trouble to shorten his crank spindle to cut even more weight.
    somewhere else on that simplebmx site one of the guys took the already "slim" seat of theirs, and shaved out most all of the padding, then stapled the covering back over it. extreme, I've seen it on others bikes too, like eddie cleveland's for example.

    check the Odyssey Wombolt cranks on this, as well as the Odyssey Elementary stem. Also, that is one sweet downtube, look at that crease, I dig it... 41thermal processed tubing on that sunday as well as the cranks. and, another thing I liked about it, they are using the Vermont sprocket with integrated bash, but it is mounted backwards to conventional, smooth IMO. logically, you would put more weight on stalls or sprocket grinds on the inside of the chain, not outer...


    pic courtesy of sunday bmx's site.

    another popular mod is to drill out their seatpost and seatpost clamp with speedholes, and some grind off the excess dropout material too. Man, this is mostly all just custom experimental work too. Heavy use of titanium is also very popular, just to drop weight even further, and hollow chromo stem bolts...

    anyway, those are just my examples, and of course "my" opinions, pretty obviously biased in one way or another, so take them how you will. At least take into account what I've mentioned, and think about it next time you call a poster a "weight weenie" for getting 1.95 krad tires instead of some sweet 2.5 hookworms or something.... you have your susp. fork, big wheels, etc. and think you need all the gussets possible on your frame, then just take a look at what's being done in bmx these days... rad.

    lets hear what you think.... if you're too lazy to read the entire thing, no worries, at least click on the links and look at the pics, haha....
    Last edited by BikeSATORI; 11-10-2006 at 08:05 PM.
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  2. #2
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    i cant read.....


    holy **** long post

  3. #3
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    Thats a really good post. My bike wieghs 27 lbs and it throws down great for urban, park, trials, bmx track. Good race bike too. I'm to old to huck around a heavy bike anymore.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by turrick
    Thats a really good post. My bike wieghs 27 lbs and it throws down great for urban, park, trials, bmx track. Good race bike too. I'm to old to huck around a heavy bike anymore.
    hey, thanks for reading! yeah, 27 is pretty light for a 26" street bike, unless it is aluminum or very high grade 4130, and/or rigid (no susp. fork)... also, "too old" is a very relative term, haha. what is ironic is the fact that once you get to the stereotypical "too old" phase, most people have health insurance, but just don't want to "huck". But, the young guns, are all out there hucking it no worries, regardless of health insurance, haha....
    Schralp it Heavy.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    hey, thanks for reading! yeah, 27 is pretty light for a 26" street bike, unless it is aluminum or very high grade 4130, and/or rigid (no susp. fork)... also, "too old" is a very relative term, haha. what is ironic is the fact that once you get to the stereotypical "too old" phase, most people have health insurance, but just don't want to "huck". But, the young guns, are all out there hucking it no worries, regardless of health insurance, haha....
    or live in canada and dont need to worry about health insurance....just go out and huck!

  6. #6
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    I haven't weighed my DK Dayton, but the websites say it weighs 33 lbs. OUCH!! Thats pretty damn heavy. I'm trying to figure out how to get it down to about 27-28lbs. My guess is lighter wheels, tires, seat, bars, etc. Hopefully its not the frame thats HEAVY.

  7. #7
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    My goal for my Nemesis Project: Reach 30lbs, or under. My 416 is currently at 33lbs. And I think I know just where I'll lose the weight.

    I'm ditching the dj3 for a Pike
    Ditching the front MTX for a Pimp with torque nips
    Might ditch the bashguard, it hasn't seen any use all summer long.
    I'll use an actual singlespeed rear hub, that is not made by formula(so it isn't unessecarily heavy)
    Same goes for front hub
    Might switch to higher quality cranks, I'm thinking holzfellers or saints, mine are cr-mo 3 piece, but made by axiom(which means they are strong, but also WAY overbuilt.)
    I'm switching to lighter but grippier tires(arrow launch or dmr moto RT, maybe both)

  8. #8
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    just read the full post, very cool points for sure. i like the drilled rims. definitely a cool idea to save some weight. like i've said in a few of my other posts, im a total weight weenie no doubt! im even more of one then my dad who rides road i've done a few things to my bike to save weight and have some other ideas in the future.

    for one im going to convert my bike to SS as soon as possible, then possibly get a true SS rear hub. i got a saint crankset and took off the bash. i use a roadie seat, mite even get a lighter one in the future. my bike at the moment weighs in at around 32-33lbs which i was kind of bummed to find out, i thought it was lighter...(partly because it has slime in the rear tube). i want to get it down to 29-30 when i go SS and have a different tube in the rear. also new bars and stem will come soon which will hopefully help.

  9. #9
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    Good stuff. I have been really surprised by the pro BMX street bikes I have seen or read about recently. They are all REALLY light compared to four or five years ago, but the tricks are bigger than ever. Go figure.

    I always tell myself that it's stupid to put Ti bolts on a stem when the bike weighs 30lbs, but I rationalize it and say it's so the bolts don't rust!

    I don't see the point (unless you are on a tight budget) in riding a bike that is way overbuilt for your riding style. Take cranks, for instance - I don't do drops bigger than about 4' when riding street, and my current setup handles crank stalls and missed bunnyhops just fine. If XC ISIS cranks can handle what I currently dish out, why go steel? If I eventually break something, I can put something stronger on.

    Good post.

    JMH

  10. #10
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    thanks for checking it out everyone.... still tons of other stuff to add actually, but I cut it off...

    for those looking at cranksets that are as strong as normal 3-pc. bmx, but lighter, check out (well if you have the cash, the Easter Titaniums, haha),
    the ODyssey Wombolt Cranks!!!!! Very very awesome. If I had a prob. with my wtp Royals, I'd be swapping them out right now. also, I see that atomlab has a hybrid bmx/mtb external euro bearing chromo crankset out now. I wonder how that is, looks very nice, as long as the spider is removeable.

    Snaky69, you will have no problem getting that NemPro under 30, those frames are light! I'm at 30, and that's with a frame weight of around ~6.2# (after grinding) and a Marz '06 DJ2. - Maybe you would want to go with a PimpLite in the front? the Pimp is heavier than the MTX I believe, and you really don't need anything that wide for street imo. take a look at the Wombolts!

    JMH, are you on some m750 xt cranks? I rocked those for quite awhile myself, painted them flat black after sanding... but I don't know what bb you are using, but mine cracked on the side with the fit on threads... cranks were not that bad though. Still have them laying around for another beater ss project.
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  11. #11
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    Seriously BikeSATORI, how much caffeine were you on when you wrote that? Just kidding, but anyways I've noticed the trend too. Everybody likes a light bike, but I think the backlash is a result from the explosion in carbon products and all the roadie stuff stirred up by Armstrong. Being a weight weenie is one thing, and we're all guilty of it somehow, but counting weight in the tens of grams is ridiculous. That is just plain overkill. I've heard a few XC guys talk about how light their bike are but when you ask them how much they ride they kind of give an indistinguishable answer. It's become a bragging thing. As for my weight weenie issues, I plan on throwing out my dirt jam pro because that thing is simply a boat anchor.

  12. #12
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    I would say I'm a weight weenie, but don't think I really qualify. My ride is a Trek 8000 weighing in at 22lbs or less. That's pretty much as light as they get in mountain bikes, but I didn't change components solely based on which are the lightest.

    My choice of pedals for instance are the Shimano 959s. These are the best functioning pedals out there in my opinion (as a former ski mechanic) and I chose them while measuring them weight and function-wise against the Time ATAC and the Eggbeaters (both of which failed in my opinion).

    My saddle is a Bontrager Race-Lite with titanium rails and a gel dot. I could go lighter or I could have bought the BS about Body Geometry saddles (aint true, don't bother with 'em) which weigh a ton, but ended up with the saddle that fit me the best and provided the comfort difference of titanium (not to mention the overall quality workmanship of the folks at Selle San Marco).

    XT vs. XTR crankset? I went with the XT because it's functionally the same damn thing, only a pinch of sand heavier than the XTR, and priced much better (especially in Japan, where I bought it).

    I'd say I'm more a fan of the engineering than the weight, but weight certainly matters too. I just wouldn't make a performance or comfort sacrifice in the name of shedding grams.

    If you want to shed weight off your ride, start with the rider. If the rider isn't underweight, then don't bother with the trouble and expense of lightening the bike. Losing five pounds from the human body is far cheaper and easier.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprocketeer
    I would say I'm a weight weenie, but don't think I really qualify. My ride is a Trek 8000 weighing in at 22lbs or less. That's pretty much as light as they get in mountain bikes, but I didn't change components solely based on which are the lightest.

    My choice of pedals for instance are the Shimano 959s. These are the best functioning pedals out there in my opinion (as a former ski mechanic) and I chose them while measuring them weight and function-wise against the Time ATAC and the Eggbeaters (both of which failed in my opinion).

    My saddle is a Bontrager Race-Lite with titanium rails and a gel dot. I could go lighter or I could have bought the BS about Body Geometry saddles (aint true, don't bother with 'em) which weigh a ton, but ended up with the saddle that fit me the best and provided the comfort difference of titanium (not to mention the overall quality workmanship of the folks at Selle San Marco).

    XT vs. XTR crankset? I went with the XT because it's functionally the same damn thing, only a pinch of sand heavier than the XTR, and priced much better (especially in Japan, where I bought it).

    I'd say I'm more a fan of the engineering than the weight, but weight certainly matters too. I just wouldn't make a performance or comfort sacrifice in the name of shedding grams.

    If you want to shed weight off your ride, start with the rider. If the rider isn't underweight, then don't bother with the trouble and expense of lightening the bike. Losing five pounds from the human body is far cheaper and easier.

    Hey I agree, function is ALWAYS the number one priority no doubt! not solely weight, that is not where my thread was directed, it was just to point out that losing weight is a main concern of the engineering and design standpoint, which I love to see all these little companies devoting themselves to (mostly always very rider driven as well).
    Sprocketeer, I'm not going to condemn, but I just think your ways stray a bit from those on this urban/dj/park board, but hey, it's all relative to the function of the bike, eh? In this post specifically, i was referring to the term and philosophy of "weight weenie" being used on a street, dirt-jump, or park bike though...
    btw- so, you spent some time in Japan? I've lived in Shiga-ken for awhile, as well as Osaka... travelled many other places too of course. will be returning there in the next couple of years or so....
    Schralp it Heavy.

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    Yeah, I know I'm out of place, but with Freeriders and All Mountain folks calling themselves 'true XC' riders, and me being once again an Urban XC guy (where my roots are anyway) upon moving back to the States and to NYC, I figure this might be my place at least a bit.

    Truth be told, I'd like to learn how to do a lot of the urban BMX technical stuff on a mountain bike. This can be done, right?

  15. #15
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    BikeSATORI, I never noticed weight cautious people getting bashed. Now yea I've heard them being referred to as "weight weenies" but hell all included referred to themselves as a "weight weenie". With that said I don't see why one would take offence to a remark like that, if one was actually made. If I were one I would be a bit proud, being that passion for the sport drove me to these levels of shedding oz or lbs.

    Now you bringing up Tree Co., I love what they're doing to the bike industry. The splined sprocket is bad ass. Another product I don't recall you bringing up that I love is their front staggered hub allowing you to lace the spokes on the inside for grinding. Killer idea along with the rest of their lineup.

    A big thanks to you for shedding light on Eastern's frames. I haven't checked them out before but I love the drilled out Grim Reaper frame. Most likely my next frame purchase.
    BTW, is there any mtn bike frames out there that have drilled out frames?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI

    Snaky69, you will have no problem getting that NemPro under 30, those frames are light! I'm at 30, and that's with a frame weight of around ~6.2# (after grinding) and a Marz '06 DJ2. - Maybe you would want to go with a PimpLite in the front? the Pimp is heavier than the MTX I believe, and you really don't need anything that wide for street imo. take a look at the Wombolts!
    I was also thinking of the Pimplite, my rear rims usually get way beat up that's why I went with the pimp, and the only reason i want a pimp up front is to balance tire width and rotational mass, I guess it's more of a looks thing than an actual need.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ServeEm
    BikeSATORI, I never noticed weight cautious people getting bashed. Now yea I've heard them being referred to as "weight weenies" but hell all included referred to themselves as a "weight weenie". With that said I don't see why one would take offence to a remark like that, if one was actually made. If I were one I would be a bit proud, being that passion for the sport drove me to these levels of shedding oz or lbs.

    Now you bringing up Tree Co., I love what they're doing to the bike industry. The splined sprocket is bad ass. Another product I don't recall you bringing up that I love is their front staggered hub allowing you to lace the spokes on the inside for grinding. Killer idea along with the rest of their lineup.

    A big thanks to you for shedding light on Eastern's frames. I haven't checked them out before but I love the drilled out Grim Reaper frame. Most likely my next frame purchase.
    BTW, is there any mtn bike frames out there that have drilled out frames?

    LIke I mentioned above, there was more stuff to add, but I cut it off....
    yeah, I didn't really go into the front BMX hubs since they really don't relate to the MTB area quite as much, and this is an mtb forum.... but, the EJECT Option hub is where it's at right now, we'll see what Tree comes out with next. I don't grind anyway, so I like to see alot of riders nowadays shedding their pegs for more flow and spin tricks...

    As far as I know, no, there are no mtb/bmx hybrid bikes that come already with "speed-holes" in them, that is why in that "Eastern26" thread I was pondering the question, when they will come out with the mtb version of the Grim Reaper.... I just might attempt it myself in some minor areas on mine over the winter here.... I won't even go near as extreme as the grim, maybe just a few carefully placed drill bits, haha.... (probably only seattube and bb shell) like I said, my current frame was a cheap proto, so no warranty, and I've already taken the die grind wheel to her in a number of places to chop stuff off and round it down....

    and I just noticed your post on the Solid big wheel offering... Never seen it, but I don't really doubt it. Volume has a 26"er, but it's a cruiser straight up, not really my thing. Too bad it's hard to find info on the BMX stuff from interbike. I really like to see all these other companies jumpin' on, just for the sake of a wider range of products out there, also shows some more open'mindedness just for the sake of riding and designing.
    Schralp it Heavy.

  18. #18
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    sorry didnt read the hole post or all the comments ((way too much)

    but i think that eastern w/ all the cut outs is flatland, ive seen that before. ive heard of 24(ish) pound bmxs, but these guys run pegless brakless, and proby cut everythibg down, a bought ti stuff

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggiebiker
    sorry didnt read the hole post or all the comments ((way too much)

    but i think that eastern w/ all the cut outs is flatland, ive seen that before. ive heard of 24(ish) pound bmxs, but these guys run pegless brakless, and proby cut everythibg down, a bought ti stuff

    well, most of the high end Eastern completes (not flatland) all have cutouts, along with the integrated post clamp. Don't quote me on this, but right now, I don't think Eastern does much in the Flatland world anyway.... I could be very wrong.
    Jimmy Rostlund's Simple is around 22lbs.... not flatland.

    it's a shame more of you can't read it.... you're already sitting at your computer, what else are you going to do?
    Schralp it Heavy.

  20. #20
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    I've seen some of these BMX guys bunny hop obstacles that look to be 4ft tall. They gotta have a real lightweight bike to do that, right? Please tell me thats the secret, because currently I can only get my bike a few inches off the ground.

    I saw a video where Hamilton hopped over a tall railing, and another where he was riding a manual up to a railing and then hopped up over it from his back wheel. How the f*(&^*(^(*&*( does he do that. A light bike must help.!!

  21. #21
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    Well it should be no shock to anyone here that all the new Nemesis Project frames are designed to be as strong and as light as possible . We use the best materials True-Temper butted OX platinum !!

    My new 07 Streetfighter complete I built up to be tough but also to save weight in every area possible ,The parts spec was ment to compliment this way of thinking with the custom I-9 wheels Tree sprocket spanish B/B specific chainguide and new Nemesis sliding disk system . I also opened up the vent areas and used computer tested ovals instead of big hole saw cuts to take as much possible weight out of the inside tube are as possible . We also used thinner straight gauge heat-treated OX platinum chain-stays instead of thicker straight gauge 4130 material to save weight in the rear end .
    We also increased the dia of the seat-stays from 3/4 to 7/8 to improve the rear end stiffness after taking some of the wall thickness out .

    Funny that TREE bicycle co was mentioned in your list of companies that are pushing the limit of the weight vs strength game .
    After working with Sam on the sprockets for my bike and adapting them to work with our new chain-guide design . ( we also have a new one-piece bash sprocket with TREE pattern being made right now for the guide also )
    Sam from TREE came to us asking for some engineering help with the light sprocket pictured above , so were currently doing a full 3d solid model of the pattern trying to figure out how we can make Sam's original design lighter and stronger without compromising his design . We here at NP design are very honored to be working with Sam and TREE bicycle co on this project .

    This same type of thinking is what went into the development of our chain-guide .
    We have a few more products in the works which feature the light bmx type esthetic wile still using everything we have learned from our outside designs projects .
    Follow me on Instagram for up to date build pics -Brad4130
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil4bc
    Well it should be no shock to anyone here that all the new Nemesis Project frames are designed to be as strong and as light as possible . We use the best materials True-Temper butted OX platinum !!

    My new 07 Streetfighter complete I built up to be tough but also to save weight in every area possible ,The parts spec was ment to compliment this way of thinking with the custom I-9 wheels Tree sprocket spanish B/B specific chainguide and new Nemesis sliding disk system . I also opened up the vent areas and used computer tested ovals instead of big hole saw cuts to take as much possible weight out of the inside tube are as possible . We also used thinner straight gauge heat-treated OX platinum chain-stays instead of thicker straight gauge 4130 material to save weight in the rear end .
    We also increased the dia of the seat-stays from 3/4 to 7/8 to improve the rear end stiffness after taking some of the wall thickness out .

    Funny that TREE bicycle co was mentioned in your list of companies that are pushing the limit of the weight vs strength game .
    After working with Sam on the sprockets for my bike and adapting them to work with our new chain-guide design . ( we also have a new one-piece bash sprocket with TREE pattern being made right now for the guide also )
    Sam from TREE came to us asking for some engineering help with the light sprocket pictured above , so were currently doing a full 3d solid model of the pattern trying to figure out how we can make Sam's original design lighter and stronger without compromising his design . We here at NP design are very honored to be working with Sam and TREE bicycle co on this project .

    This same type of thinking is what went into the development of our chain-guide .
    We have a few more products in the works which feature the light bmx type esthetic wile still using everything we have learned from our outside designs projects .
    hey, glad to see you chime in here, as you are quite obviously more involved in the field than I... very interesting about the collaboration with Tree.... I'm hoping to get one in 25t if they hit by january...
    you wanna let me drill some "speed holes" in your streetfighter? c'mon, I'm real steady with this drill, hahaha... yeah right.
    did you ever put a chain on that bike yet?
    Schralp it Heavy.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ServeEm
    BTW, is there any mtn bike frames out there that have drilled out frames?

    The new StreetFighter I built has much larger outer vent holes on the upper spreader similer to the speed holes on the grim reaper , what you coulnt see Saturday night is the size and way the inner vent holes on the 07" streetfighter are cut .
    Both at the seatpost/ toptube area and the tuptube/ headtube and downtube/ headtube junctions we used FEA softwear to product vent ovals that increse streangh wile still removing as much weight as a oversized very hole .
    Thes ovals work together with our gussetts to increse streangh and diapate stress from the tube joints to the butted section's of the tube .
    Follow me on Instagram for up to date build pics -Brad4130
    Nem-Pro store
    Nem-Pro Blog

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Evil4bc's Avatar
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    Apr 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    hey, glad to see you chime in here, as you are quite obviously more involved in the field than I... very interesting about the collaboration with Tree.... I'm hoping to get one in 25t if they hit by january...
    you wanna let me drill some "speed holes" in your streetfighter? c'mon, I'm real steady with this drill, hahaha... yeah right.
    did you ever put a chain on that bike yet?
    You cant see them now but the bike is filled with computer designed vent ovals to remove as much weight as possible without comprimising streangh .

    Yup ... had to do a bit of extra machine work to the upper lip to add some clearence .
    So I machined a 2mm tall keeping lip into the top edge too so the chain has no way of escapeing .

    Been riding the bike all weekend , even crashed Saturday night at mach 9 in some fish guts wile riding in the city and scratched up my Animal Hamiltons all up .


    Shino from Grindstate.com and i got to hang out yesterday and ride a bit , there's an interview on his site with me and some cool rideing pics .
    Follow me on Instagram for up to date build pics -Brad4130
    Nem-Pro store
    Nem-Pro Blog

  25. #25
    I post too much.
    Reputation: snaky69's Avatar
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    Mar 2005
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    For some reason that chain looks transparent in that pic Brad.

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