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  1. #151
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    slightly modified "Big" loop with smaller tables on main line and also sort of accellerating rollers on the bottom line (but only 20% increase in size for each one).
    My plan during construction is to start with the smallest loop first and use any experience gained to improve the design of the other two loops. Whether this will happen in practice is not certain as the town planners want their workmen to do the majority of the construction.
    Watch this space!

  2. #152
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    Good stuff Fastfish! I like how motivated you are.

    First off, a 'big picture' comment: The Town wanting to use their own workers to do most of the construction is a red flag. The ideal situation is where experienced rider-designer-builders are simply given a huge pile of dirt and reimbursement for front-end-loader/Bobcat rental. At a minimum, make sure that rider-designer-builders are there to point where the town employee or contractor dumps each scoop of dirt, then you guys shape it. There is no way a non-riderdesigner can appropriately shape jumps and rollers. I have a lot more to say about that, but I'll leave it at that (and we can discuss privately or even talk on the phone).

    Next . . . Accelerating Rollers. You're absolutely right that each roller does not necessarily have to be double the size of the previous. They should be specifically tailored to the rider's speed (whether increasing or decreasing), the incline/decline, and to the style of how you want the track to feel. Watch 1:24 - 1:34 in this edit from our spot. This is the third side of a roughly rectangular pump track. It is slightly upgradient. It starts with two regular rollers out of the berm, then a bigger roller, then an even larger one ('monster roller'), then a roller table, then a full sized tabletop jump. It took several re-builds to get it right. The goal was to increase speed in order to be able to hit a jump.

    I have also used accelerating rollers on a decline. If you look at the left side of this pic, you'll see a small roller, then a larger 'monster' roller , then a "camel-back" table (aka rollable double). Because you're starting with some speed and the entire line is slightly downgradient, I made it so that the "dirt waves" (if you wanna think of them that way) stretch out. I have some video I can upload later.


  3. #153
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    I realise that its not ideal but Ill be on hand as well as a few guys from the local BMX club. A mountain biking friend is also a minio-digger driver and has his own mini-excavator which will probably come in very handy. Im actually located in France, though my French isnt bad, its not perfect ... so more challenges! ANyhow the town came to us to see if we could build them something -- so I was hardly going to say "no" -- Will have to play it by ear and see how things pan out!
    Im not that experienced with buiding pump-tracks/DJ tracks so its a big learning curve! My plan is to start with the smaller loop and get that fine tuned and use what we learn there in the bigger loops where its going to be more critical. Apparently one of the town workforce is a mountain biker -- though Ive not met him. Will let you know how we get on ...

  4. #154
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    That thing looks awesome! what software did you use for those graphics?

  5. #155
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    hi -- Im a developer for Formation Design Systems: www.formsys.com Its actually ship-design software!
    I wouldnt recommend it really for designing pump-tracks, but I know it well so was able to produce the drawings pretty quickly -- but Id already done some hand sketches with pen and paper -- but I needed some fairly detailed drawings to submit for approval. Ended up doing 2D drawings in autocad.



    Im thinking about seeing if I can do a plugin for Google Sketchup, but dont currently know the software well enough. If there are a number of people who would be interested on this forum, I might be able to find some time to look into it a bit more ...

  6. #156
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    Cost is a huge variable. I've build two pump tracks for home owners. We had 3-5 guys on the crew, paid for dirt, rented heavy equipment when needed.

    One cost $2800.00 and the other was $5500.00. If you involve the city it could go up dramaticly or be fairly low cost....

  7. #157
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    this pump track is a good example of the rectangle-with-rounded-corners concept. it's much better than thinking of a track and field style oval. if you have a big track, you don't want huge oval-end berms.

    it's also a good example of integrating a pump track into the woods.



    Adventure Racer: Blessingbourne MTB Trail Centre

  8. #158
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    Here's a shot of my buddy's pump track. It's a blast with some really good transfer options.

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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfactor1 View Post
    that video is a great example of how spaced-out larger rollers are much more fast and flowy than some of the tiny speed-bump designs that are out there. great job.

    i'm particularly looking at the line from 0:24 to 0:27. that set of 3 looks like they're spaced, i'm guessing at least 15' or 17' peak to peak. they appear to have about 3 bike lengths peak to peak.

  11. #161
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    if anyone is interested I did a quick spreadsheet for plotting out rollers and tables based on some of the data from cmc4130
    The rollers are based on arcs of circles, as are the take-off and landing of the table. You edit the yellow cells. The table also shows you a trajectory (ignoring any rider input!) I should make it so that you input the speed, but at the moment ist just a parameter.

    cheers,
    pat

  12. #162
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    humble beginnings of the pump track our group have been working on heaps ore work been done since these pix but anyway


    ILIKENORTHSHOREANDICANNOTLIE
    glory, glory hallelujah...


    any1 guess what bike I ride?

  13. #163
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    This is the first time I've checked out this thread and I'm stoked to see of of these pumptracks on here! I've built 5 tracks now, here's the latest one I just finished in my yard. the pictures aren't that good, but I'll take some better ones and post them up. I'll try to get some pics of the other tracks I've done too. Some of the pics were from the construction phase.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DJ , Pump Track plans-dsc00097.jpg  

    DJ , Pump Track plans-dsc00103.jpg  

    DJ , Pump Track plans-dsc00101.jpg  

    DJ , Pump Track plans-dsc00108.jpg  

    DJ , Pump Track plans-dsc00112.jpg  


  14. #164
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    Your comment on my design

    Hey, I am building a bit bigger dirt line, so here is my plan. Any comments and ideas would be appreciated,....

    Details can be seen in pdf,...:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DJ , Pump Track plans-dirt-line-l.jpg  


  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikezigo666 View Post
    Hey, I am building a bit bigger dirt line, so here is my plan. Any comments and ideas would be appreciated,....

    Details can be seen in pdf,...:
    I can't read that. Try posting something with higher resolution or a link to the .pdf you mention.

  16. #166
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    Link to the pdf,...

    I didnt notice that the link was missing,... thanks
    Attached Files Attached Files

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikezigo666 View Post
    I didnt notice that the link was missing,... thanks
    looks great ! the only thing i noticed is that the second double has 1m (3.28 feet) longer gap than the first double. unless you're going downhill, that will cause you to have to struggle a little to make the gap without casing. you'd have to scrub-jump the first one and compress a lot and boost the second one. after a while that gets not as fun/flowy as having gaps that are matched, so you just can float through the line. if you don't want them matched, then i'd suggest have your longer jump first make it lower/flatter like race-style then make the second tall. that's a real common setup in bmx trails. long-and-low to booster.

  18. #168
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    Dj

    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4130 View Post
    looks great ! the only thing i noticed is that the second double has 1m (3.28 feet) longer gap than the first double. unless you're going downhill, that will cause you to have to struggle a little to make the gap without casing. you'd have to scrub-jump the first one and compress a lot and boost the second one. after a while that gets not as fun/flowy as having gaps that are matched, so you just can float through the line. if you don't want them matched, then i'd suggest have your longer jump first make it lower/flatter like race-style then make the second tall. that's a real common setup in bmx trails. long-and-low to booster.
    Thanks CMC for your reply. I have the same thoughts that is why I have reduced the gaps in the second and third kicker. Furthermore I have also made the landing a little less steep - I have used a bit larger radius for the landing than in the original version so that it would be easier to catch the landing,... What do you think?
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  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikezigo666 View Post
    Thanks CMC for your reply. I have the same thoughts that is why I have reduced the gaps in the second and third kicker. Furthermore I have also made the landing a little less steep - I have used a bit larger radius for the landing than in the original version so that it would be easier to catch the landing,... What do you think?
    I think that looks awesome. Note that although they're definitely cool and work well, landings don't always have to have a circular radius throughout. Theres the flat bank-to-transition style which is common. There are also elliptical and parabolic ones. With dirt , guys aren't actually measuring these shapes but a lot of times eyeballing it gets you pretty close to them.
    Rule of thumb though is that longer and mellowed is better. There tends to be a common mistake of people making landings too steep which shortens up the area you can actually land on. 30 degrees may sound mellow, but it actually works really well. That would be a 30-60-90 triangle where the landing is 6 feet tall and the surface length of the landing is 12 feet. Even 20-25 degree landings work well, especially for trick jumps where you don't want to be required to have an ultra precise nose-dive.

    these are about the steepest a landing generally should be. 45 degrees may sound mellow but it's not. similarly, landing into a 60 degree arc means that the riders trajector would need to be even more steep than that. you would only use a landing that steep if you have a jump where you boost straight up and then really dive down.


    this drawing, from rampplan.org, shows a landing with a 20 foot radius. notice how much more horizontal space there is to land on. especially if you're learning 360s, tailwhips etc.


    http://rampplans.org/forums/uploads/Box_Jump.jpg



    old school style bmx box jump. appears to be about 3 1/2 or 4' tall with about 8 to 10 feet down the slant of the landing. that would make it roughly 30 degrees or slightly less.


    parabolic landing:






    on your roll-in, i suggest making the transition at the bottom of the slant a little bigger. i took this pic at whistler air dome. one of the coolest roll-ins i've ever seen. note how the transition you roll into is as big as large launch. i'm guessing 6' tall and 12'-ish radius.
    Last edited by cmc4130; 07-22-2012 at 11:40 AM.

  20. #170
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    dark muck

    Hi all,

    Does anyone have experience with black muck soil(see picture) for creating pump track. Seems like it never going to dry out. Its still pretty "mushy" after leaving it alone for a day.

    I`m almost finished with one roller consisting of lots of rocks(70%-ish of rocks) and this black muck soil. I also "sprayed" a little rocky-sand over the mud just in case. Probably wont make much difference?

    Will the black muck get hard enough? How long will it take to dry?

    I found some clay a little walk away. Some of it seem like 100% clay. Will black muck soil with a tin top layer of clay be good?

    I`m building in the forrest. Impossible to get any dirt from the place i`m building. To many roots. But there is this little swamp with black muck right by.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DJ , Pump Track plans-skjermbilde-2012-07-28-kl.-00.01.14.jpg  


  21. #171
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    We've got a low area that sometimes turns into a pond when it floods. It's got good dirt/clay in the bottom of it (part of the reason it holds water for so long). Give it a chance to dry out and see what you end up with.

  22. #172
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    Valmont Park Pump Tracks - Boulder, CO

    If you haven't been here, you should go. This is the sickest bike park ever. Skills area, Flow track, 4 dirt jump lines, 4 slopestyle lines, dual slalom, and 2 pump tracks. Professionally maintained.
    Go and take one of Lee McCormack's public clinics, or even better, set up a private training session or two. My son and I just spent 3 days with him. Awesome. Worth every penny and two days driving time - and more.
    (Lee Likes Bikes)

    Upper Mesa Pump Track
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/73026863@N03/7687321210/" title="valmont_upper mesa all by pumptrackaddict, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8431/7687321210_93fc22d991.jpg" width="500" height="131" alt="valmont_upper mesa all"></a>

    Lower Creekside Pump Track (that's my son)
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/73026863@N03/7687130156/" title="lower creekside_denton by pumptrackaddict, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7273/7687130156_0f822bd4f2.jpg" width="500" height="260" alt="lower creekside_denton"></a>

    Lee himself railing my Canfield Brothers Yelli Screamy 29er on both tracks:
    How to Ride a Pump Track - on a 29er (Canfield Brothers Yelli Screamy) - YouTube

    Two sweet flowing tracks, and the Creekside has a pretty small footprint which would make it a good pattern for a backyard track.
    2011 Canfield Yelli Screamy
    2012 Canfield DJ

    www.pumptrackaddict.com

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaveDude View Post
    We've got a low area that sometimes turns into a pond when it floods. It's got good dirt/clay in the bottom of it (part of the reason it holds water for so long). Give it a chance to dry out and see what you end up with.
    Thanks, will give it a try. I should probably cover it with something so it wont rain on it? Its rare with more then a few days with no rain here, at least this summer it seems.

  24. #174
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    The mixture of wood and dirt and the Texas Toast Jam in Austin in October was incredible.

    2012 Texas Toast Jam: Dirt Final Highlights - TransWorld RideBMX - YouTube

    Note the step-up... Landing higher than launch adds to smoothness. Rolled-over corner makes it case-friendly.


    Note how the wood berm wall is a 90 to flat to 90 rather than a semi-circle 180 design. This allows the rider to pump in the first corner, then pump again in the second corner. Because the radius of each corner is tighter than a full 180 would have been, it's much faster. Also the rider launches up into the wall and exits by dropping into a transition, which also adds speed.


    The jumps did not have massive gaps. I paced them to be roughly in the 13-15 ft. lip to landing range.


    On berm thing . . . remember when you need to turn 180 and get going the other direction in a set of trails, there are two ways (or more) to do it. You can do the full 180 radius. Or you can do 90, straight, 90. In skatepark terms, it's the equivalent of the difference between these two bowl endings. The 90-/-90 is definitily the faster of the two. If you're soaking up speed, use a full 180 radius. If you're wanting the rider to pump around it, use 90 - flat - 90.

    Like I've said before in this thread, you can learn a lot about pump track design by riding cement skateparks. Pay particular attention to bowl corners that are fast and ones that feel slow.


  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4130 View Post
    Note how the wood berm wall is a 90 to flat to 90 rather than a semi-circle 180 design. This allows the rider to pump in the first corner, then pump again in the second corner. Because the radius of each corner is tighter than a full 180 would have been, it's much faster.
    Hi cmc, I'm currently building our back-yard pump track (still working on drainage and sorting one line out) and was wondering what the minimum radius would be for a 90º to flat to 90º rather than a straight 180º? We're limited by trees and have got a maximum 4m or 13ft outer diameter to play with for both berms.

    Track is for my young son as well as myself, so the radius can't be crazy tight

    Thanks for any advice.
    si

  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by si618 View Post
    Hi cmc, I'm currently building our back-yard pump track (still working on drainage and sorting one line out) and was wondering what the minimum radius would be for a 90º to flat to 90º rather than a straight 180º? We're limited by trees and have got a maximum 4m or 13ft outer diameter to play with for both berms.

    Track is for my young son as well as myself, so the radius can't be crazy tight

    Thanks for any advice.
    si
    When you say "outer diameter," are you referring to the widest area that there will be any dirt (including the backside of the berm) or are you referring to the top edge of the riding surface (which would be equivalent to the coping in a skate bowl) ?

    Depending on how steep you slant the backside of the berm, the bottom of the backside of the berm could be another 2'6" (like in this picture) or more further out.



    So if your outer diameter of space to work with is only 13, then that only leaves you a 6'6" radius to the back of the berm, meaning the radius at the riding line might only be 4'-ish. IMO, that's just not going to work well with a 180 berm.

    That said, Lee McCormack's Welcome to Pump Track Nation e-book has a diagram of The Fix pump track (I guess from back in 2004 or so) that shows a super-tight 180 berm with a 38" radius to the riding line. I have talked with a friend who rode that pump track. He's a guy who used to win 4x races and he thought the Fix pump track was crazy tight/tech/difficult-and-not-in-a-good-way. But he also said that once you kind of got the hang of a full body tilt-should-drop-lunge into that tiny radius, you started to get the hang of it.... It kind of seems like the tighter a 180 radius gets, the more the face of the berm has to go to almost-vert. You really have to get sideways to pin it.

    I saw this pic on Facebook, of the Sombrio Ladies pump track jam, Whistler.
    Even though they're wood, these transitioned-face bowl corner style berms are rad. Note how they continued the transition up to almost-vert, just to ensure that no one is going over the top.
    Last edited by cmc4130; 12-04-2012 at 11:52 AM.

  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by si618 View Post
    Hi cmc, I'm currently building our back-yard pump track (still working on drainage and sorting one line out) and was wondering what the minimum radius would be for a 90º to flat to 90º rather than a straight 180º? We're limited by trees and have got a maximum 4m or 13ft outer diameter to play with for both berms.

    Track is for my young son as well as myself, so the radius can't be crazy tight

    Thanks for any advice.
    si
    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4130 View Post
    When you say "outer diameter," are you referring to the widest area that there will be any dirt (including the backside of the berm) or are you referring to the top edge of the riding surface (which would be equivalent to the coping in a skate bowl) ?

    Depending on how steep you slant the backside of the berm, the bottom of the backside of the berm could be another 2'6" (like in this picture) or more further out.
    CMC sums it up well. If you have a 6.5 radius, a 90 berm-pump-90 berm could work. With exit bumps, you could berm - double - berm which would be cool

    If you have to build inside the 13 then maybe going to a hybrid track would help. A smooth transition to a wall could give you enough vert to maintain (and increase speed on the exit). That way you can come straight at it and leave straight away from it. (think half a half pipe and tall )
    On our track, I don't want any 180 berms because I'd like every berm to pump and
    I don't want anything smaller than a 10ft radius to maintain a high speed track.

  28. #178
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    good points YRG!

    i hope this doesn't derail the thread . . . but cement skatepark bowls / pools can be very inspiring with pump track design. visualize the line(s) your tires are going to take.



    This guy's taking what is kind of the green line above... Sideways pump first corner, ride the back wall straight across, pump second corner....








    Pool Archive - Longboardism.com

    okay now look at this.... what a call a low-high-low berm. you enter low you carve high and you exit low. that's what skaters typically do when carving bowls...
    (from Red Bull Pump Ride video)

    this is also a low-high-low banked turn:


    however, when you have a roller into a turn and a roller out... it's an attempt to reverse it. going down the roller into the berm, makes you go low around the middle of the turrn, then you start to go up again when you exit. even more extreme is a landing down into a turn... definitely makes you take a low line and means the berm does not have to be tall. like this one:


    this one is more like ribbon in, then horiztontal around, then ribbon out:


    see how this guy is taking a low line around this berm. (from Mark Weir pump track video):
    Last edited by cmc4130; 12-04-2012 at 03:18 PM.

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4130 View Post
    When you say "outer diameter," are you referring to the widest area that there will be any dirt (including the backside of the berm) or are you referring to the top edge of the riding surface (which would be equivalent to the coping in a skate bowl)?
    Widest area I have for dirt. On the west-side berm I might be able to squeeze another foot or two of radius, but east-side is maxed out without removing a big bush, which might not go down well with the better ½ ;-) since I've already cleared a fair bit of vegetation.

    I'll post some pictures in my next post, as my count will be 10 by then.

    Depending on how steep you slant the backside of the berm, the bottom of the backside of the berm could be another 2'6" (like in this picture) or more further out.

    So if your outer diameter of space to work with is only 13, then that only leaves you a 6'6" radius to the back of the berm, meaning the radius at the riding line might only be 4'-ish. IMO, that's just not going to work well with a 180 berm.
    One problem I can see is I've got a big pine tree on the east berm, and a big gum tree on the west berm, both are right at the exit points. I'm planning on using rollers on all entries and exits, but it could get messy if there's too much speed being created in the berms.

  30. #180
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    Here's a picture of the east berm, note the pine tree and big diosma bush on the exits:


    And the west berm, on the right you can just see the big grey box gum tree on the exit on the right:


    One issue with widening the west berm radius is that whilst I could squeeze a bit extra on the northern side, the entry is quite narrow and due to the bushes, a fixed location on the southern side:

    So if it was widened, on entry there would need to be a small berm on the inside to kick you left before turning right, and conversely (to work both directions) the berm might have to keep going a little further than a straight 90º on the exit. Not sure how that would work.

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by si618 View Post
    Here's a picture of the east berm, note the pine tree and big diosma bush on the exits:


    And the west berm, on the right you can just see the big grey box gum tree on the exit on the right:

    So if it was widened, on entry there would need to be a small berm on the inside to kick you left before turning right, and conversely (to work both directions) the berm might have to keep going a little further than a straight 90º on the exit. Not sure how that would work.
    Wow, that is tight and the better you make the berm to accommodate the tightness, the tighter it becomes.
    If it were me, I'd come in and cut anything in my way out, but your yard looks nice so that could pose a problem. Maybe wall hits will get you in and out of tight places and let you keep speed going in and out.

  32. #182
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    I had a backyard pump track for the last 1.5 years and decided to level it because of the dirt it was built with. I dug my natrual soil to get the track dirt, but it does not compact well so made for a very high maintance track.
    This time around I am going to purchase better compacting soil and probably add a sprinkler system. I don't have a lot of space for the track, 88'x16' oval. My last track was an oval with the center filled in with rollers and a small tabletop so that I could change directions any where with in it.
    With my limited space, I want to see if anyone might have some input on raising the fun factor on such a small track? Here is a sketch. I know the size is not very big, but thats what I have to work with.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DJ , Pump Track plans-scan0001.jpg  


  33. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    Wow, that is tight and the better you make the berm to accommodate the tightness, the tighter it becomes.
    If it were me, I'd come in and cut anything in my way out, but your yard looks nice so that could pose a problem. Maybe wall hits will get you in and out of tight places and let you keep speed going in and out.
    I took your advice and dug another 50cm or so of dirt out of the hill side of the berm, and used rock to build up the low side, so it's now as wide as I can make it, and the berms should be able to be steeper and narrower now.

    It's taken ages to finish the problem area of the track, my place is on a sloping block so I had to cut a bench and build a drystone wall and infill in one section of the rollers to make it level and wide enough. Site access is a biatch, so no dingo diggers, all done by hand, but it's done now and the drainage is in.

    Took me a while to find a good local source of heavy clay soil, but just found some and hiring a tipper truck on Friday to transport it. Then have to shift 10-20? tonne from the top of our garden to the bottom!

    Really got no idea how much dirt will be needed, I'm going to start with 10 tonne and see how I go.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuenstock View Post
    I had a backyard pump track for the last 1.5 years and decided to level it because of the dirt it was built with. I dug my natrual soil to get the track dirt, but it does not compact well so made for a very high maintance track.
    This time around I am going to purchase better compacting soil and probably add a sprinkler system. I don't have a lot of space for the track, 88'x16' oval. My last track was an oval with the center filled in with rollers and a small tabletop so that I could change directions any where with in it.
    With my limited space, I want to see if anyone might have some input on raising the fun factor on such a small track?.
    That's almost the same size as my track, my plan is to have a pimple roller/transition in the middle of the track, not sure what else you can do to up the fun factor?

    I hear you with the dirt woes, ours is pretty crappy so I didn't want to build with it, but a local graveyard has good heavy clay soil which should be ideal, and they are always wanting to get rid of dirt to make space for bodies ;-)

  34. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by si618 View Post
    That's almost the same size as my track, my plan is to have a pimple roller/transition in the middle of the track, not sure what else you can do to up the fun factor?

    I hear you with the dirt woes, ours is pretty crappy so I didn't want to build with it, but a local graveyard has good heavy clay soil which should be ideal, and they are always wanting to get rid of dirt to make space for bodies ;-)
    Kind of your same Idea, I had a small 4' gap jump in the middle that could be hit in both directions. I also made multiple options to change direction within the track. Makes it alot more fun then just going in a circle. I've already leveled my track and will rebuild with good dirt this time.

  35. #185
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    curved wall rides at either end, spine in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuenstock View Post
    With my limited space, I want to see if anyone might have some input on raising the fun factor on such a small track? .....


    Quote Originally Posted by pnj View Post
    curved wall rides at either end, spine in the middle.
    yeah definitely. i was going to say something similar... which is that the best way to increase the fun factor in a small area is to build UP vertically. you need artificial elevation on both ends of the yard. either in the form of platforms with roll-ins, quarter pipes, wall-rides, dirt tranisition up to wood slant, whatever.... then you can put something jumpable in the middle, like a box jump, dirt tabletop or double, a spine, etc.
    so even if you're not necessarily thinking of wanting ramps or riding in a bmx style.... just note how the elevation at both ends of this area allow you to generate speed.
    Steven Moxley Backyard Ramp Session - YouTube



    Roll-ins

    this now-dead pump track had a slant-wall-ride at the bottom end. riding up that slant and dropping down again gave you momentum to get back up the slight incline... You could make the wall less slanted if you want it to act more like a wedge than a wall ride. and, as pnj said, curved wallrides, which act like berms. Austin local Pierce:

    Ninth Street BMX, the official local's site -Austin, Texas. Non profit, Non biased, Digger run.

  37. #187
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    Waiting for spring

    Here is the work we started last fall. Got lucky and some local construction brought us about 100 dump truck loads of near perfect dirt. Can't wait to get it up and going. First phase is a pump n jump with a full jump line skirting the side.
    DJ , Pump Track plans-img_0366.jpgDJ , Pump Track plans-img_0380.jpgDJ , Pump Track plans-img_0381.jpgDJ , Pump Track plans-img_1956.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    Here is the work we started last fall. Got lucky and some local construction brought us about 100 dump truck loads of near perfect dirt. Can't wait to get it up and going. First phase is a pump n jump with a full jump line skirting the side.
    nice !

    you probably already know this, but i'll say it for everyone's benefit regarding building with a Bobcat: if you get dirt delivered and it's dry throughout . . . it really helps to have someone spraying water while the bobcat is dumping dirt... you need dampness throughout the pile for it to pack down properly. you can't just move all the dirt with a bobcat and then water at the end and hope it soaks through. that will just create a crust on top that looks packed, but later it may crack in big chunks, since it hasn't binded to the dirt underneath. even best is when you shape and pack as you go. so you'd basically water and pack in layers, which is basically what road builders and house foundation builders do.

  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmc4130 View Post
    nice !

    you probably already know this, but i'll say it for everyone's benefit regarding building with a Bobcat: if you get dirt delivered and it's dry throughout . . . it really helps to have someone spraying water while the bobcat is dumping dirt... you need dampness throughout the pile for it to pack down properly. you can't just move all the dirt with a bobcat and then water at the end and hope it soaks through. that will just create a crust on top that looks packed, but later it may crack in big chunks, since it hasn't binded to the dirt underneath. even best is when you shape and pack as you go. so you'd basically water and pack in layers, which is basically what road builders and house foundation builders do.
    Thank you for the tip. I would be surprised if dry was a problem since it's all under snow right now, but the well is right next to the track.

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    So I have just read through this entire thread and there is a ton of useful information on here! Thanks to all the contributors!
    I notice in this thread most people have very small space...I have the opposite problem I live on seven acres of property want to devote about 4-5 acres to build an awsome pump/jump slash DJ spot. The only problen is the property only has one natuaral hill thats about 30' elevation change and don't know how to utilize the rest of the property.
    One big plus I have is we have a family excavtion business and I have acess to heavy equipment free of charge but am unsure how to use my space the best
    any help is apperciated.

  41. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1533clydesdale View Post
    So I have just read through this entire thread and there is a ton of useful information on here! Thanks to all the contributors!
    I notice in this thread most people have very small space...I have the opposite problem I live on seven acres of property want to devote about 4-5 acres to build an awsome pump/jump slash DJ spot. The only problen is the property only has one natuaral hill thats about 30' elevation change and don't know how to utilize the rest of the property.
    One big plus I have is we have a family excavtion business and I have acess to heavy equipment free of charge but am unsure how to use my space the best
    any help is apperciated.
    30 feet is plenty to get speed. Once you have it is easy to keep if the track is designed well. Flat can be an advantage is some ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1533clydesdale View Post
    So I have just read through this entire thread and there is a ton of useful information on here! Thanks to all the contributors!
    I notice in this thread most people have very small space...I have the opposite problem I live on seven acres of property want to devote about 4-5 acres to build an awsome pump/jump slash DJ spot. The only problen is the property only has one natuaral hill thats about 30' elevation change and don't know how to utilize the rest of the property.
    One big plus I have is we have a family excavtion business and I have acess to heavy equipment free of charge but am unsure how to use my space the best
    any help is apperciated.
    This might seem like an extreme amount of effort, but I think it's worth talking about the concept anyway.... When you have only one elevation on a piece of land, it means that once you go down it, you have to turn around and hike/crank back up the hill. It's worth considering creating an artificial elevation opposite the natural elevation so that when you go down one, across some flat then up the other side, not only do you have something to turn around on, you can also hang out there for a breather, then drop in off it to crank back up your hill.



    In skatepark design, skateboarders often use a "basin" design, which means that there is elevation around the perimeter, then you drop into the middle area to hit stuff like pyramids grind boxes etc. then you use your momentum to get up the other side of the basin. The same can apply in biking situations.

    If you ever ride at Valmont, you'll notice the slopestyle hill . . . You hike up it, ride down... then have to hike up it again.

    Considering that they made several artifical elevations there, I'm a little surprised they didn't build a "turn-around" hill for the slopestyle lines....



    See how they created an artifical elevation with a platform to start from here:


    One year at Crankworx, they built a quarter pipe at the end of the runs. Besides being a cool thing to hit, it also operated as an artificial elevation that allowed riders to re-gain some gravity momentum to turn around and go back up to the top of the course.


    All this said.... even though you have a lot of space and access to heavy equipment, I advise just building one section or even just one jump at a time. Moving the dirt is only part of it. Shaping and packing takes just as much if not more effort. You want to build your lines progressively. If you try to lay out the whole track in the beginning, you can easily make mistakes on spacing and gap distances and have to rebuild stuff.

    This spot, my friend Abel primarily built with help from a lot of our crew.
    Allied Compound -- End of the World Jam - January 2012 He decided that down-gradient run was fine, without the turnaround aspect that I've been talking about.
    If you watch this video, you can kinda see the how the layout works. You end up at a lower elevation.
    Jumps heading downgradient can be fun though, because you get the opportunity for step-downs like this:


    Dual-slalom and 4-cross tracks tend to side-wind down a hillside.
    http://dirtdivas.files.wordpress.com...19_ddrf8-o.jpg

    heh, there's a lot to think about...

  43. #193
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    Little help please

    Got a question. I would like to put in a bmx style line (or 2) of rollers, step up rollers, and rollers with tables. (look at the 3 pics I took out of a vid). It appears the rollers are raised up from the rest of the track. Why is that? I would also like to know about spacing and height so we can have something fast (come in with speed and leave with maybe even more). Been reading as much as I can but would appreciate some input on this one particular aspect. Pulled the pics from here.
    Anyone shed some light as to why the rollers stay mostly above the bottom of the track?

    What is a good size, radius, and spacing for fast?
    Thanks
    DJ , Pump Track plans-bmx_roller.jpgDJ , Pump Track plans-bmx_rollers_with_table.jpgDJ , Pump Track plans-bmx_stepup_roller.jpg

  44. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    Got a question. I would like to put in a bmx style line (or 2) of rollers, step up rollers, and rollers with tables. (look at the 3 pics I took out of a vid). It appears the rollers are raised up from the rest of the track. Why is that? I would also like to know about spacing and height so we can have something fast (come in with speed and leave with maybe even more). Been reading as much as I can but would appreciate some input on this one particular aspect. Pulled the pics from here.
    Anyone shed some light as to why the rollers stay mostly above the bottom of the track?

    What is a good size, radius, and spacing for fast?
    Thanks

    I'm glad you posted that. That spot is an EXCELLENT example of a bmx-racer-designed-and-focused pump track.

    Now watch this: Stowe Bike Park Pump Track - YouTube . Note the different style of riding. At the Stowe pump track, the rider keeps both wheels on the ground and does full-bike pumps...wheelbase up, wheelbase over, wheelbase down. It is more like surfing dirt waves.....

    The BMX race version is a lot more technical. Notice how he mostly manuals.... I love the BMX race style because you get to work on different skills like multiple roller manualing, pre-manualing (where you manual on the flat then press the nose down on the backside of a roller), speed-jumping roller sets, etc. The reason there are raised roller sets, is to add fun and difficulty of having more up-and-down elevation on an area that is otherwise flat; the other reason is that it provides more technical challenge--you have to double-up-manual and double-down-manual etc.

    I like to mix both these styles in my designs. Sometimes the rollers on BMX race tracks can be too peaky. I think this comes from the unique history of BMX tracks, where, like in motocross, the "whoop-de-doo" section was not designed to generate speed or be smooth, it was designed to mess you up !! The idea was to get through it with technical skill and not get bucked. Gradually the "whoops" were mellowed out into rollers that flowed better. BMX racers got really good at pressing the nose into the backsides and creating pump. But still, the idea was not exactly the same as full-bike "wave" pumping. Mixing the two styles together is an art form.

    The key design principle with rollers is "less is more." If it looks awesome/sweet/killer, it is probably too much (i.e. too peaky/too abrupt/too spine-ish/too speedbump-ish) !! MELLOW them out. I personally believe 10 foot peak to peak is a minimum distance, 11 seems to be great for slower speeds, 13 works awesome for general riding, and 15+ works well for relatively faster trails. Forget about speed bumps and think about waves. (However, if you want gap-able sets of rollers then pair them up... a set that is 7-9 foot spaced, then 11-13 foot bowl, then 7 foot again etc. You will then gap every short set. Multiple-gapping of evenly spaced rollers is a skill that expert and pro BMX racers have down, but is actually pretty tough.

    This is a shot from 4 1/2 years ago at my spot. They start close together and small and gradually get more stretched out and elongated:


    I did this drawing to illustrate domed-over rollers rather than peaky rollers. I'm not saying rollers have to be exactly to this design--there are LOTS of ways to do it, and tons of shapes are rideable. I'm trying to help/educate y'all to design ideas, not to provide one-size-fits-all plans ! Think about and experiment with your shapes... pack them in, ride them, change them . . . this sport is about creativity. It's not about cookie-cutter ! ! Nothing gets me stoked more than a new tweak to rideable landscape!

    Last edited by cmc4130; 03-18-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  45. #195
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    cmc4130 Thanks!
    I like the comment on creativity. What a great feeling having a blank canvas. I am looking to incorporate aspects from the "surf" style, bmx style and dj into one track. So the competition pump tracks (sea otter etc), bmx tracks and dirt jumps along with this thread are the source for ideas.
    I have a follow up question about your statement "one jump at a time", I've been getting mixed advice that falls into two camps.
    1) build a piece, then build the next so they flow
    2) lay out the design so that spacing and radii are consistent and go
    It seems that (in general) dirt jumpers favor the first school and pump track and trail builders favor the second. Since radius and flow are so critical in a pump track, I am leaning towards the second, but I hear you advocating the first. Could you please elaborate???

  46. #196
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    cmc is on point with his advice.

    as for your 1) and 2) ideas, I see them as the same idea. Layout the track but BUILD each thing/pump/jump/etc one at a time. Start at the beginning and work your way towards the end.

    it's ok if your layout changes a bit but DO NOT draw your design and randomly put the pumps in. I've seen tracks that had a good layout but were built with a 'work party' where 50 different people built the track. So the first jump didn't set you up well for the second and so forth.

    Also, remember that it is dirt so it's easy to change/fix. and as your skills increase you'll find ways to change the track. There is no perfect track.

    If you're in the NW part of the USA, I'd be happy to come help.

  47. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by pnj View Post
    cmc is on point with his advice.

    as for your 1) and 2) ideas, I see them as the same idea. Layout the track but BUILD each thing/pump/jump/etc one at a time. Start at the beginning and work your way towards the end.

    it's ok if your layout changes a bit but DO NOT draw your design and randomly put the pumps in. I've seen tracks that had a good layout but were built with a 'work party' where 50 different people built the track. So the first jump didn't set you up well for the second and so forth.

    Also, remember that it is dirt so it's easy to change/fix. and as your skills increase you'll find ways to change the track. There is no perfect track.

    If you're in the NW part of the USA, I'd be happy to come help.
    I was hoping for that kind of answer. Start with a design and then build one at a time and check for flow. Thanks for the offer. We are in Park City so if you find yourself out this way shoot a message and come ride

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    anyone in the DE/PA/MD area who has built one of these? Looking to put one on my property and would love to see any local examples.

    Great thread

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    Hey sorry if I missed this, but I looked through the thread a couple times but didn't see anything that addressed jump size and spacing when going down hill. A group of us are working with the city of Cottage Grove MN to build a bike park and the area we are working with has a 5% natural Grade loss as well we will put probably a 6ft tall starting hill for the jumps. The jump line we have around 400 linear feet to work with. I am looking for input on the spacing and jump size. We are looking to do more of the big step up style jumps and are really going for more of the lofty competition style jumps over the tight trail rhythm style jumps but not extremely huge so how far peak to peak for the jumps, how tall should the lip be to the landing and how far would you all recommend between jumps?

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    kind of like this picture DJ , Pump Track plans-cgbp-jump-sample.jpg
    I'm thinking kind of like the last jump in this video but smaller Martin Söderström and Xavi Pasamonte at Morrilla trails - Just for fun - YouTube

    dose like a 4ft lip and 7 ft landing with maybe 5-6 ft peak to peak seem appropriate for the first jumps in the line of probably 5-6?

    and this is the general lay out for the park that has been approved

    DJ , Pump Track plans-1-2-.jpg

    there will be a entrance/chill area, that box in the top right of the picture then a return line to get too the top and then a 4x track about 850-900 linear foot long, then that is the big jump line just below that, below that on the picture is the medium and small jump lines side by side and then the big box will be the MTB skills area, drops/skinnies/rocks that stuff. then on the right side will be 2 pump tracks and a tot track, the shapes of the pump tracks were hard to cad so we just put basics in there. they will be way cooler then that when done.
    here is a link to the FB page for this park https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cotta...96908407004866

    and here is the link to the park we built last summer, just a couple things to finish and that is located in Eagan MN

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Eagan...77695292318263

    thanks for your help. We've never built a jump line with a down hill with that much grade loss

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