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  1. #1
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    Yet Another TNT Thread

    Lots of engineering theory bouncing around, but as we all know there are some really crappy examples of HL bikes (Giant NRS, anyone) and really good ones like the Turners.

    So, here's a practical suspension test that I wish I could do with one TNT Spot and one HL Spot. Or maybe it's a test that I wish I'd asked Ts to do at the Intergalactic Bipedalling Show.

    1. Lock the fork as well as can be accomplished.

    2. Put the front tire against the wall.

    3. Push down on the rear sus.

    4. Push down on the rear sus again, with the rear brake locked tight.

    If the rear sus is noticeably stiffer with the rear brake on, it means there absolutely will be some degradation of sus activity while braking. I think, however, with good pivot placement, etc., this can really be minimized.

    And now a question: I wonder if the TNT bikes are spec'd with a little firmer platform in the RP3? Doesn't Ventana use a firmer platform on the X5 to minimize pedalling bob than is necessary with the HL 5-Spot?

  2. #2
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Lots of engineering theory bouncing around, but as we all know there are some really crappy examples of HL bikes (Giant NRS, anyone)
    Errr Uhhh, not sure NRS is really a HL bike...and besides, there are folks who actually do like it...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Errr Uhhh, not sure NRS is really a HL bike...and besides, there are folks who actually do like it...
    Yes the nrs is a horst link, and I like mine... I like my Turner a lot more, but the nrs is not a bad bike at all.
    Last edited by mtn hack; 10-04-2005 at 09:16 PM.

  4. #4
    post-ride specialist
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    Good heavens, you're right! And to think all the energy I've wasted trying to push over walls by pedaling into them with my brakes on. And all the suspension plushness I've failed to enjoy. Think I'll just go back to using my forehead on those damn walls!

  5. #5
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    i suspect yer wall therory to be a pile of hooey but who knows? we seldom come accross a shear wall that needs to be pile driven on a trail. i, for one prefer to go over it, not through it but im silly like that.

    the nrs is indeed not a true whorst link. similar, yes but not within the patent parameters. furthermore, for the nrs to do its no bob job as advertised, you must run such a huge shock psi that it becomes much less plush than acceptablr to most riders in my eyes. perhaps this is why it was discontinued. not a bad bike mind you, just not a great one.

    you bring up a good point on the rp3. as far as i know, turner uses the med platform version of fox's 3 choices on their bikes that use this damper and a horst link. this ones a david question and since ill be talkin with him tomororrow, ill ask and get back to ya. i might have a new bigger toy by mid month.
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  6. #6
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    Yes the nrs is a horst link, and I like mine... I like my Turner a lot more, but the nrs is not a bad bike at all.
    Actually, the NRS was a hard bike for me to sell (as a giant dealer), I would be honest with people and tell them that their compramise is harsher suspension, because it's meant to run at zero sag. At zero sag, it is going to be harsher than many other bikes, may also have less traction up steep hills due to this. If you are used to a hardtail, it will feel like a lot more suspension than you've ever felt before, but it stacks up pretty poorly against other suspension bikes out there in terms of absorbing impacts (the number one role of suspension). When giant came out with the Maestro bikes it was a breath of fresh air, becuase now we had great pedaling and great suspension action, all in one bike, with no real compramises.

    Given when the NRS was selling (as recently as 05), most competitors bikes were significantly better in this catagory.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #7
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    i suspect yer wall therory to be a pile of hooey but who knows? we seldom come accross a shear wall that needs to be pile driven on a trail. i, for one prefer to go over it, not through it but im silly like that.

    the nrs is indeed not a true whorst link. similar, yes but not within the patent parameters. furthermore, for the nrs to do its no bob job as advertised, you must run such a huge shock psi that it becomes much less plush than acceptablr to most riders in my eyes. perhaps this is why it was discontinued. not a bad bike mind you, just not a great one.

    you bring up a good point on the rp3. as far as i know, turner uses the med platform version of fox's 3 choices on their bikes that use this damper and a horst link. this ones a david question and since ill be talkin with him tomororrow, ill ask and get back to ya. i might have a new bigger toy by mid month.
    YES IT IS A HORST LINK! It comes with the specialized patent sticker.

    If you want to argue that it is a different setup than other horst link bikes fine. It is different as it is setup with no sag as JM points out.

    However, all horst link means is that it has a chainstay link in front of and below the rear axle.

  8. #8
    Mexican e-rider
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    Who says NRS is an inferior design!

    If it can get me an accesory like this, I am getting one!!!

    Giant NRS
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  9. #9
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    easy there hack man, yer gettin all red in the face. if its a whorst and has the sticker, its certainly news to me as a former dealer having never seen the sticker and thinkin i knew somethin about the patent. but hey, maybe im wrong as ive proven to be so many other times. now take a deep breath and let me buy ya a beer.
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  10. #10
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    I think it's a good idea. An attempt to prove or disprove the horst link superiority. Who knows maybe the specialized fsr marketing has really done its job all these years making us buy into a pivot placement that may not be any better than the next?

    I would believe a real world test over a theory anyday.

  11. #11
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    holy shnikies! im sellin all my turners as ive found pure up and down perfection! bet that model rides nice. i think i might upgrade the rear to accomidate a longer stroke.
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  12. #12
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    Uh, there will be a suspension stiffening under the conditions described, if my sketch is right. Problem is, though, these conditions are bloody unlikely in normal riding situation.



    For the suspension to compress normally, the rear wheel have to rotate forward, and the point of contact between tire and ground have to move rearward (C to C-prime), which is not possible unless the tire skids or the bike moves forward. This is the source of the stiffening.

    Without much calculations, for rear axle travel of 120 mm and with the length of chainstay of 415mm we are talking about 45-50mm of rearward movement. In other words, if during the compression, the bikes moves forward > 50mm, the biker, very likely, will notice no stiffening at all.

    To recap the conditions of this experiment, during the compression, you have to have zero speed AND your front brake 100% locked AND your rear brake 100% locked and your front and rear tires not sliding on the surface at all AND your tires having zero elasticity and glued to the rims with Loctite.

    IF any of this conditions is not respected, I suppose, the stiffening fades to the point of becoming unnoticeable.

    This amazing display of armchair engineering was brought to you by greenskin.

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  13. #13
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    Just when I think I am starting to get it, ya'll got to confuse me some more. For a while there I was thinking that the only time the HL added benefit was when the rear wheel was locked up... Now I have to be facing the back of the bike, steering with my feet and sipping a martini to get any benefit....

  14. #14
    Mexican e-rider
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    Longer Stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    holy shnikies! im sellin all my turners as ive found pure up and down perfection! bet that model rides nice. i think i might upgrade the rear to accomidate a longer stroke.

    Cactus: Dunno if that model will accomodate your 2" shaft
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  15. #15
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    option #1) its a 2" shaft but it gives 12" of travel, pal!
    option #2) it may be short but it sure is skinny!
    option #3) hey!
    option #4) {tears of realization}
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  16. #16
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    yer right, i blew it. the nrs is indeed a licensed horst. now i owe ya 2 beers.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  17. #17
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    yer right, i blew it. the nrs is indeed a licensed horst. now i owe ya 2 beers.
    Sorry if I blew up there scorn. I've been having this argument throughout these boards for quite some time.

    I'll take you up on that beer. I'm in Reno right now, so head on out and we'll do it up. And maybe even find a couple of those models that have that incredibly efficient rear end.
    And although I am sure it could take some big hits, I doubt it could ever be described as a freeride.

    PS: They seem to be all over the place out here!

  18. #18
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    no worries pal. i too know the frustration at times and on this one i flat hosed it up. alls cool by me. i have a friend in reno. a d/h gal named paula s. id love to go back and ride there with ya both, on bikes ya sicko! beers all around! ever get to the midwest?
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