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  1. #1
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    wow!!!! the real world - mtbr

    you have GOT to see this! a 29er pal of mine clued me in. what a friggin riot! or should i say what a friggin travesty?

    Walt Works frame NOT right - public challenge to Walt

    please never let this pissant walk into our shops or buy a turner.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  2. #2
    Mexican e-rider
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    Wow, the customer from hell--- someone needs to get on Prozac ASAP
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  3. #3
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    Two words:
    Nut Job

    I dig how he's so attached to his cage that he won't try anything else or even accept a free one to check out. Durn nice of shiggy who as far as I know is just an in the know bike guy with a tire fetish, not Walt. He's more concerned over the ability to use a specific stinkin cage than actually having a bike to train on and race. As Bugs Bunny would say: "What a maroon!"
    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  4. #4
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    He has to use a specific cage, as it seems. Not try anything else. Return a frame, because of a bottle cage. Could have asked Walt about what combo he was designing around, no? Could have supplied his cage and bottles for the build, but doesn't seem like it.

    One thing that has to be noted is the magnitude of the race he's in. He doesn't want to worry about the access to the bottle being impeded by anything, nor worry about a cage he doesn't know much about ejecting the bottle. Understandable too.

    The solution lies in the middle, but I dare not post that because demoslug will certainly follow me to that thread, too.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The solution lies in the middle, but I dare not post that because demoslug will certainly follow me to that thread, too.

    Got the Titus gestapo of your tail huh?

    That ds guy is a real tool.

  6. #6
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    Yeah, he's following me all around mtbr. He's got to have my post history in his bookmarks.

    Those guys take criticism real personal. The best was when this dude started lying about things I said, so I just sent the links to the poster really said them to craigH to have the flaming threads finally closed.

    Then he warned the Foes board about me when I was inquiring about the FXR, but my post history shows I'm a Foes fan, too.

    He also doesn't like bringing up the couple of occasions where I defended Titus. Oh well. There are dipsticks all around and I will continue to eat cookie dough.
    Last edited by Jerk_Chicken; 03-24-2006 at 06:31 AM.

  7. #7
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    Yeah, if you can't get what you want with a custom then ouch, your hopeless. I like how Walt offered a fix but the nutjob wouldn't apologize. I was in the hotel business for 10 years and I saw all kinds, this guy reminds me of one of those nuts that goes on the road for business and is all pissed off about it and takes it out on everyone along the way.

  8. #8
    Negative Rep Points!!!!
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    Wth???

    Friggin' 29" wheel nutcases!
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I like how Walt offered a fix but the nutjob wouldn't apologize.
    WTF rroeder????
    I said NUT JOB was two words. It doesn't fit properly in the sentence as two words. Whack Job is two words and works well but I like the sounds of nut job much better and won't change!

    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  10. #10
    Lay off the Levers
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    Thank DOG he didn't order an EBM mount...those things are notoriously difficult to get fitted.

    But then, he doesn't appear to be properly equipped to use an EMB anyway.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  11. #11
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    Uhh...

    That's 15 minutes of my life I wish I had back.

    That guy must have a hard time getting through life.

  12. #12
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    IMO, Walts more in-the-wrong than this poster. Serious problem or not, the guy paid out the ducats for Walks product and is unsatisifed. Walt now needs to stand behind his product and if nothing else, he owes this guy a serious review of the situation and if appropriate, some kind of make-good. A quick email in response is not enough.

    Remember guys....whats a huge reason we all own Turners?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    IMO, Walts more in-the-wrong than this poster. Serious problem or not, the guy paid out the ducats for Walks product and is unsatisifed. Walt now needs to stand behind his product and if nothing else, he owes this guy a serious review of the situation and if appropriate, some kind of make-good. A quick email in response is not enough.

    Remember guys....whats a huge reason we all own Turners?
    Oh, come on! The Walt guy offered to fix the frame, but the nutjob refused to send it back in. Instead, he sold it for $400 to another mtbr'er (like half the original price). Totally crazy. He also didn't tell Walt that the frame had to be designed around one particular cage, just that he wanted two mounts. Which he got.

  14. #14
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Goddamnit, the thread is closed. I wanted to add some fuel to the fire.

    Anyone that has looked at small frames (like 13-15s) for any length of time knows how difficult it is to get a water bottle in there and have it fit. This guy basically asked for something that's not necessarily possible, and the frame builder pulled it off the best he could. If he wants more space for a water bottle, he needs to compramise or as was suggested, specificy exactly what components he's going to be running (front derailer). The poster wanted a "custom" frame, but didn't do all the research and didn't really understand enough about frames. It's his fault, and no one elses in this respect.



    I remember back in 1992 when I used to have a water bottle....
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    Oh, come on! The Walt guy offered to fix the frame, but the nutjob refused to send it back in. Instead, he sold it for $400 to another mtbr'er (like half the original price). Totally crazy. He also didn't tell Walt that the frame had to be designed around one particular cage, just that he wanted two mounts. Which he got.
    Easy, baby. I didnt see that part. That goes a long way. But I STILL dont think Walt's initial reaction was good. You stand behind your product first, ask questions later. Walt seems to have done the opposite. And sometimes, you have to bite the bullet and satisfy an unreasonable customer, even as a business owner you KNOW youre right. Becuase you know what? Youre NEVER right. The customer is. Always. You do it the other way and you know what youre eventually known as? "Tony."

    Hey, dont get me wrong. Walt sounds like a fine guy who builds nice bikes. I just think IMHO he could have handled this better.

    FWIW, the two cages on my 52cm Trek Madone have lousy clearance, too.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=SpeedThrills]But I STILL dont think Walt's initial reaction was good. You stand behind your product first, ask questions later. QUOTE]

    Well, if you read it all, you'll find out that the first time the dude called Walt, it was at 11 or 12 at night and he was in bed asleep with his wife. Not a big surprise that he didn't get a favorable reaction. Then he hauled off and started his post at 8AM the next morning.

    Personally, I don't think that business owners have to cater to every customer's demands. IMO, the customer isn't always right, particularly when they're clearly wrong.

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=Jayem]Goddamnit, the thread is closed. I wanted to add some fuel to the fire.
    QUOTE]

    I don't know what the heck is wrong with the moderators on that board. Don't they know a good time when they see it? Apparently not. There are several other related threads that are locked. It's too bad, because the "I'm a whiny little jerk" thread could've been a classic.

  18. #18
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    I don't know what the heck is wrong with the moderators on that board. Don't they know a good time when they see it? Apparently not. There are several other related threads that are locked. It's too bad, because the "I'm a whiny little jerk" thread could've been a classic.
    Dude, you're *this* close to making me call the moderators on you. That comment is just too offensive to me.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  19. #19
    Making fat cool since '71
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    He has a fetish or two...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedRocker
    Two words:
    Nut Job

    I dig how he's so attached to his cage that he won't try anything else or even accept a free one to check out. Durn nice of shiggy who as far as I know is just an in the know bike guy with a tire fetish, not Walt. He's more concerned over the ability to use a specific stinkin cage than actually having a bike to train on and race. As Bugs Bunny would say: "What a maroon!"
    Shig is a way nice guy *and* a bit of a fetish-ish dude. Not that it's a bad thing to know what you like...or don't.

    It's customers like that 514-tool that really reinforce my tendency towards being asocial (boardering on antisocial...). Have fun all.

    Kraig...

    BTW: Loving my Spack so far (not sold on the DHX though).
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  20. #20
    Baked Alaskan
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    That's a real winner in terms of what not to do when you're unhappy, give it a few days - not hours - to sort everything out. Walt could have responded better, but don't call him out publicly the next morning. Damn, you wait 4 months for a frame and can't even go 24 hours before declaring that the builder is a snake.

    But with all the alternatives being presented to the original poster and his unwillingness to even TRY a different cage, it was pretty obvious that he had a major case of buyers remorse. There was no way he would have been happy with the frame under any circumstances.

    I wasn't surprised at all when he just sold the frame for next to nothing. I personally thought he was gonna post pic of the frame after running over it with his car or something like that - the direction of his posts had meltdown written all over them.

    The comedy of a 5'10" rider on a 14" frame, whining about water bottle placement or making assumptions about a custom frame instead of having half a brain and discussing it with the builder before the frame was made -- especially if it was SO crucial to use that cage and only that cage. Makes me wonder if that's another screen name for Davide.

    The frame was being built with such wacky dimensions - who's buying custom and doesn't know small frames have water bottle issues? He did sign off on the design before it was built. Its his own fault for assuming Walt knew every little minute detail of what he wanted and then for being such a dumbass for not even taking him up on his offer to fix it. Proof positive you can't please everyone.
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  21. #21
    No, that's not phonetic
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    If the buyer had SPECIFIED EXACTLY which bottle cage he wanted to be able to run, then his complaint was justified. If he simply said "I want two bottle mounts" and Walt made a bike which accepted two bottles (even if it required an obscure, but available, cage), then the buyer has no one to blame but himself (for not making his specific cage fetish clear).

    It was a dumb thread any way you slice it.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis

    Personally, I don't think that business owners have to cater to every customer's demands. IMO, the customer isn't always right, particularly when they're clearly wrong.
    Not to defend the dummy in that post, but how do you blast HIM, but then come up with the above?

    With all due respect, youd make a really lousy businessman or owner with that attitude.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    Not to defend the dummy in that post, but how do you blast HIM, but then come up with the above?

    With all due respect, youd make a really lousy businessman or owner with that attitude.
    I was actually responding to a previous comment from you:

    'And sometimes, you have to bite the bullet and satisfy an unreasonable customer, even as a business owner you KNOW youre right. Becuase you know what? Youre NEVER right. The customer is. Always. You do it the other way and you know what youre eventually known as? "Tony."'

    I totally disagree with it. Why should business owners be blackmailed by any nut-case with a computer and access to the internet? Does it help out other customers if these guys get their way all the time, wrong or right? Uh, that would be a big "no." For instance, what if the next 100 people who buy a Flux decide that it's a great trials bike, and start dropping it off the roofs of their houses. Do you really think that Turner should give them new frames for free when they predictably destroy their original frames? How long could Turner stay in business doing that? Not too long, would be my guess.

    In any event, you're saying that Walt handled things the wrong way. But if you check out the posts on the 29'er board, it's pretty clear that the vast majority of the posters there feel as though he came out a winner. I really doubt that he's done anything to hurt his business. As for you last comment about my "attitude," I've got to tell you that you know nothing about me, my qualifications in any profession, or my attitude. Peace out.
    Last edited by Fat Elvis; 03-25-2006 at 05:39 PM.

  24. #24
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    Heyyyyyyyyyy. Wait a sec. It just hit me: if my XL Spot that DT/Greg hooked me up with has room for two tacos and a hose routing braze-on on the TT then surely it could have had room for two cage mounts on the down tube. Life is just not fair sometimes
    That was serious sarcasm folks





    Oh, speaking of poor service from complete jerks - big thanks to Chad at Red Barn for getting ahold of some hard-to-find pulleys to fit my 2004 X.9 RD! Holy cow, they really do fit!!!!!! You're the man Chad. The stem and bars feel great too, many thanks for helping me make up my mind.
    Big hoopy.
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  25. #25
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    I know that old design has those bearing equipped pulleys and mine are in need of replacement soon, but are they that hard to find?

    I was suspecting they were related to the old 9.0 style, but never confirmed it. How much?

  26. #26
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    what a pu$$. Walt Wehner's a cool dude and one of the least likely to rip someone off, IMO. he's building a business and is trying to do his best. the dude is dead serious about building good frames for good prices. what the fugg is up with that pu$$ whining all over bottle cage mount boss location? use a hydration pack you pu$$. even if the 21st century and the 1990s are scary gear-wise, get with the 80s at least, will ya? I wonder if the dude realizes you don't have to keep your water on the frame. I wonder also if he realizes that swapping out bottle boss holes isn't such a big deal. aaaaahhhh... what a giant pu$$!

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    IMO, Walts more in-the-wrong than this poster. Serious problem or not, the guy paid out the ducats for Walks product and is unsatisifed. Walt now needs to stand behind his product and if nothing else, he owes this guy a serious review of the situation and if appropriate, some kind of make-good. A quick email in response is not enough.

    Remember guys....whats a huge reason we all own Turners?
    you are as unreasonable as the pu$$ who was whining about his stupid tampon string location for his tampon holder on his tampon machine 29er.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Anyone that has looked at small frames (like 13-15s) for any length of time knows how difficult it is to get a water bottle in there and have it fit. This guy basically asked for something that's not necessarily possible, and the frame builder pulled it off the best he could. If he wants more space for a water bottle, he needs to compramise or as was suggested, specificy exactly what components he's going to be running (front derailer). The poster wanted a "custom" frame, but didn't do all the research and didn't really understand enough about frames. It's his fault, and no one elses in this respect.

    I remember back in 1992 when I used to have a water bottle....
    nicely said Jayem. you pegged the issue cold. even the closing remark.
    Last edited by gonzostrike; 03-25-2006 at 05:36 PM.

  27. #27
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    doh! nut!

  28. #28
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    krispy! kreme!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    Not to defend the dummy in that post, but how do you blast HIM, but then come up with the above?

    With all due respect, youd make a really lousy businessman or owner with that attitude.
    nope. customers can NOT TELL YOU something, then complain that you didn't do what they DID NOT TELL YOU. as if they were thinking of it when they discussed the frame with you, but forgot to tell you, and then worked on the assumption that they DID tell you.

    this happens occasionally with custom frame customers. ask any builder. I heard quite a few "horror customer" stories when I went to fillet braze school at UBI.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I know that old design has those bearing equipped pulleys and mine are in need of replacement soon, but are they that hard to find?

    I was suspecting they were related to the old 9.0 style, but never confirmed it. How much?
    We have a winner!
    The box says: "SRAM 9.0 SL Derailleur (2001 & Later)"
    Don't buy anything that says X.9. Mine were so worn that they barely had teeth.
    Big hoopy.
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  31. #31
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    I thought the dude sounded like a 17 year old trust fund baby.

  32. #32
    the 36 year old grom
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Then he warned the Foes board about me when I was inquiring about the FXR, but my post history shows I'm a Foes fan, too.

    .
    that was not me it was "ASSCLOWN"

  33. #33
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    i think most good retailers, bikes or otherwise, know when to say when and cut their losses. some customers are simply not worth the price of doing buissiness with and this guy would be a prime example if he wasnt so far over the top. his behaviour was out of bounds, simply put.

    the customer may always be right. that doesnt nessesarally mean i want him right in my shop and i have the right to ask him to go be right somewhere else. right? ive shown the very rare custy the door and locked it behind him. these types of people will bring down all the other customers and staff in their presence and that, mr speed, is just not fair no matter how right you, i or he thinks he is. you cannont conduct good buissiness in a negitive enviornment.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  34. #34
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    Parallel internal thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedRocker
    We have a winner!
    The box says: "SRAM 9.0 SL Derailleur (2001 & Later)"
    Don't buy anything that says X.9. Mine were so worn that they barely had teeth.
    Mine are actually in great shape, although there is some play. I am very doubtful the play is causing ANY difficulties with shifting. The upper one is the one with the play while the lower is fine.

    Could I have your X9

  35. #35
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    best reply was from Brant of On-One bikes....a kick arse company by the way.

    Walt Works frame NOT right - public challenge to Walt

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Could I have your X9
    Sorry, they're taken. One of my friends has an X.9 they'll fit on. Give Chad a call at Red Barn Bikes if you need a set. It did take quite a while for mine to get to the sorry state they were in. The RD's been on 3 bikes now.
    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  37. #37
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    at least Walt admitted he blew it and didn't handle it the right way!

    And I worked customer service - although not as long as you. My co-workers and I used to make fun of complaints like this. Now I'm that customer that is making seemingly unjustified rants.


    karma's a *****!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    you have GOT to see this! a 29er pal of mine clued me in. what a friggin riot! or should i say what a friggin travesty?

    Walt Works frame NOT right - public challenge to Walt

    please never let this pissant walk into our shops or buy a turner.
    Holy crap.

    What a tool.

    The guy's oibviously got issues waaay beyond his custom bike "problem".
    Taking it easy for all you sinners.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    you are as unreasonable as the pu$$ who was whining about his stupid tampon string location for his tampon holder on his tampon machine 29er.
    "Unreasonable"? How? Becuase I take the philosophy that the customer is always right?

    Ive made it quite clear that I think this buyer is a moron, like everyone else. And like cactuscorn alluded to, its more than appropriate for a vendor to fire a client the same way a client can fire a vendor. Ive done than on several occasions, giving up tens of thousands of potential revenue because dealing with that custmoer was a giant PITA in a lot of ways.

    But whether or not this dude told Walt about the concern, he is an unsatisfied customer. The onus is on the business to satisfy the customer, not vice-versa, and even with custom frame builders. When you have one of those, as a good businessman, you correct the issue. And sometimes, you have to do that with bad customers too. Ive done it more than once, reluctantly offering "make goods" when I felt I really shouldnt have. But in the interest in keeping my customers happy (what an 'unreasonable' concept!), even the lousy ones, I did it. NOW...if that same bad customer keeps causing trouble, then all bets are off and I refuse more work from him/her, as mentioned above.

    So dont be a dick and throw insults around because my business philosophy differs from yours, OK?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    I totally disagree with it. Why should business owners be blackmailed by any nut-case with a computer and access to the internet? Does it help out other customers if these guys get their way all the time, wrong or right? Uh, that would be a big "no." For instance, what if the next 100 people who buy a Flux decide that it's a great trials bike, and start dropping it off the roofs of their houses. Do you really think that Turner should give them new frames for free when they predictably destroy their original frames? How long could Turner stay in business doing that? Not too long, would be my guess.
    The flaw in your argument is that your juding Walts initial response as acceptable on the faulty idea that by standing behind his product in this case, hes setting precedent for having to satisfy every yahoo with a stupid complaint. Thats NOT the case here. This is a one time deal and every single complaint has to be addressed in a special way. A lot of people are saying becuase Walt is a custom builder, the onus is LESS on him to make good. I say thats wrong....its MORE on him to stand behind his product here.

    In any event, you're saying that Walt handled things the wrong way. But if you check out the posts on the 29'er board, it's pretty clear that the vast majority of the posters there feel as though he came out a winner. I really doubt that he's done anything to hurt his business. As for you last comment about my "attitude," I've got to tell you that you know nothing about me, my qualifications in any profession, or my attitude. Peace out.
    Again, I just think he could have been more responsive to this complaint, thats all. I really dont know Walt from Adam and I dont care. Again, he sounds like a solid guy. Im using this situation more to debate business policies OT than anything else.

  41. #41
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    I am worst customer

    A place of buisness should see every unhappy customer as an opportunity to improve it self. The worst customer is the one that shows is displeasure by taking his business else where without mention why.

    BTW, even though I think the guy in the thread is a cry baby, I probably would not do buisness with Walt, several other people in the thread mention problems they had, and the original poster had another issue, small but none the less an issue. I defiantly would not of handled it the way this guy did.

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