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  1. #1
    jrm
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    Will a PUSHED rp3 heat up as bad?

    as a stock one after repetitive or prolonged descending? Thanks..

  2. #2
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm
    as a stock one after repetitive or prolonged descending? Thanks..
    Heat is how the suspension dissipates the energy. If the shock is working, it's going to heat up, it's just a matter of to what degree. The best way to control the heating is to add cooling fins, or increase oil volume, I doubt that a different piston in the shock is going to make a big difference. More damping=more heat, less damping=less heat, so it depends on your exact Push configuration (if you ask them for more or less damping than you already have)...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  3. #3
    MK_
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    My guess would be yes. Not much, but yes. PUSH essentially allows oil to move around more freely, therefore there's less friction going on in there. In real world, how much difference that makes in heat, who knows, but it should reduce it, in any case.

    _MK
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    "No man goes before his time -- unless the boss leaves early."
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm
    as a stock one after repetitive or prolonged descending? Thanks..
    How bad does yours heat up?

  5. #5
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm
    as a stock one after repetitive or prolonged descending? Thanks..
    What bike is the RP3 on? If it heats up too much you may warp the plastic IFP.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  6. #6
    Ole
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm
    as a stock one after repetitive or prolonged descending? Thanks..
    I don't think there will be a noticable difference, the energy from the damping is what it is. With air shocks, the damper is partially enclosed inside the air spring, so the oil gets less cooling than on a coil spring. So compared to a coil spring, your oil heats up faster, and you get faster rebound. But not only that, the air inside the air chamber heats up, and you get a stiffer spring as well. Less rebound, stiffer spring. Just what I don't want during a downhill.

    I run a Swinger 4-Way Coil on my 5.5, and the shock gets lukewarn after a few minutes of fast, technical descending, and the rebound gets noticably faster. But at least the spring stays the same.


    Ole.

  7. #7
    jrm
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    04' spot..

    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    What bike is the RP3 on? If it heats up too much you may warp the plastic IFP.
    kinda forgot that part..i was in a total hurry when i posted..

  8. #8
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm
    kinda forgot that part..i was in a total hurry when i posted..
    I use a PUSH'd RP3 on a Pack and it sure feels luke warm after a fast rocky downhill run. I don't think the leverage on the Spot will make the RP3 heat up as much to warp the IFP. So I think you'll be OK. As far as your question goes, the PUSH internals including the oil they use may decrease friction relative to stock which may, in very minute amounts, decrease heat build up. But I don't know if that would even be noticeable. All I know is that it works so much better than stock.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  9. #9
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    RP3 noticeably hotter than my Cloud Nine

    Stumbled on this thread and it hit a chord with me. I ran a Cane Creek Cloud Nine on my Heckler for a year then switched to the RP3. While I like the damping on the RP3 I am amazed at how hot this thing gets over the course of a 9 km rocky downhill. My Cane Creek never heated up much. I am not worried about warping plastic, i am worried about the seals wearing out faster.

  10. #10
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberclyde
    Stumbled on this thread and it hit a chord with me. I ran a Cane Creek Cloud Nine on my Heckler for a year then switched to the RP3. While I like the damping on the RP3 I am amazed at how hot this thing gets over the course of a 9 km rocky downhill. My Cane Creek never heated up much. I am not worried about warping plastic, i am worried about the seals wearing out faster.

    I wouldn't worry too much about the seals. If you warp the IFP such that the air in the negative chamber gets into the damper, you'll need to send the shock in for service. But you may not generate enough heat to warp it though..
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  11. #11
    jrm
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    I

    guess ill have to find out.....thanks..

  12. #12
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    Less Heat

    A Push'd RP3 will produce less heat than a stock RP3 due to the Piston that we install. With our system, we use a higher flow piston configuration that allows us to put the damping emphasis on the valving shims rather than restriction at the piston port.

    This allows us to tune the shock to "dump" fluid at extreme shaft velocities, the same velocities that generally inhibit stock pistons from displacing quickly enough.

    As for the "warping" issue, it should be referred to more as a "distortion". For these applications we do offer an upgraded aluminum IFP. With the 5 Spot this is not necessary.

    Darren

  13. #13
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    A Push'd RP3 will produce less heat than a stock RP3 due to the Piston that we install. With our system, we use a higher flow piston configuration that allows us to put the damping emphasis on the valving shims rather than restriction at the piston port.

    This allows us to tune the shock to "dump" fluid at extreme shaft velocities, the same velocities that generally inhibit stock pistons from displacing quickly enough.

    As for the "warping" issue, it should be referred to more as a "distortion". For these applications we do offer an upgraded aluminum IFP. With the 5 Spot this is not necessary.

    Darren
    Darren, I'm a happy user of your services. I have a PUSHed TALAS and RP3. But I'm going to dare to challenge your physics a little here.

    The better a shock is working, the more it reduces the effect of the terrain on the bikes forward progress. This effect amounts to work (in the strict physics sense) being done against the bike's forward progress. Work is the equivalent of energy. The better the shock works then, the more the negative energy from terrain changes is reduced. It is reduced by being converted into heat. Therefore the better a shock is working, the more heat it will produce.

  14. #14
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    SFJH,
    Wouldn't heat be a partial product of intramolecular friction between the fluid molecules (also viscosity) as well?

  15. #15
    Toby Wong?
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  16. #16
    Ole
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    Not necessarily

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Darren, I'm a happy user of your services. I have a PUSHed TALAS and RP3. But I'm going to dare to challenge your physics a little here.

    The better a shock is working, the more it reduces the effect of the terrain on the bikes forward progress. This effect amounts to work (in the strict physics sense) being done against the bike's forward progress. Work is the equivalent of energy. The better the shock works then, the more the negative energy from terrain changes is reduced. It is reduced by being converted into heat. Therefore the better a shock is working, the more heat it will produce.
    Now that all us NERDS are out of the closet, I'd like to add a comment to the above: If the shock is over-damped either in compression or rebound, it will absorb more energy than it's supposed to, and it will heat up more. But if it'd underdamped, less energy will be absorbed my the shock, like you say.

    NERD and proud.


    Ole

  17. #17
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    I say:

    Who cares if it heats up? If it works is all that matters and suspension fluid heats up. You won't see the heat exceeding the capacity of the fluid and the internal parts are designed around the temps seen.

    In other words, biking is cool.

  18. #18
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    Now that all us NERDS are out of the closet, I'd like to add a comment to the above: If the shock is over-damped either in compression or rebound, it will absorb more energy than it's supposed to, and it will heat up more. But if it'd underdamped, less energy will be absorbed my the shock, like you say.

    NERD and proud.


    Ole
    No. The ideal set up as far as efficiency goes (not necessarily comfort) will be to maximise the work done by the damper. Work is force times distance. In this case the force is the damping resistance or level of damping. It's what you adjust. The distance is the amount of shaft travel. You want to maximise the product of the two. So there is an ideal amount of damping resistance. Too much and you reduce the travel too far and the product is smaller. Too little damping resistance and you get plenty of travel but the product is still smaller because the force is too small.
    Last edited by Steve from JH; 10-14-2005 at 08:54 AM.

  19. #19
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I say:

    Who cares if it heats up? If it works is all that matters and suspension fluid heats up. You won't see the heat exceeding the capacity of the fluid and the internal parts are designed around the temps seen.

    In other words, biking is cool.
    The hotter the shocks the cooler the riding. (Up to a point).

  20. #20
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    SFJH,
    Wouldn't heat be a partial product of intramolecular friction between the fluid molecules (also viscosity) as well?
    I think that's a fairly accurate description of why displacing the oil produces heat.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    The hotter the shocks the cooler the riding. (Up to a point).
    But of course...

  22. #22
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    You're making me work

    Steve,

    Yes, you're correct, but there is more to it.

    You have to think of damping as a characteristic due to the fact that we can manipulate where and how forces are generated. Higher forces at low shaft velocities, will generate less heat over a given time period than say, high forces at high velocities and vice versa. Changing, or manipulating this characteristic for different applications is our secret recipe.

    So yes, if it high shaft velocities you are generating high forces, than heat becomes and issue, but if you're able to remove those forces well....

    Again, different bikes require different characteristics, some will produce more heat than others. The 5 spot isn't one of those applications.

    Darren

  23. #23
    Bodhisattva
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    Darren,

    Now that you've got your thinking cap on, riddle me this......

    Will a regressive shock therefore cool down with use?
    And could those freezing temperatures freeze the IFP?

    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  24. #24
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Darren,

    Now that you've got your thinking cap on, riddle me this......

    Will a regressive shock therefore cool down with use?
    And could those freezing temperatures freeze the IFP?

    Also, if I make my 100% efficient Ellsworth even more efficient, will I gain weight when I ride?

  25. #25
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Steve,

    Yes, you're correct, but there is more to it.

    You have to think of damping as a characteristic due to the fact that we can manipulate where and how forces are generated. Higher forces at low shaft velocities, will generate less heat over a given time period than say, high forces at high velocities and vice versa. Changing, or manipulating this characteristic for different applications is our secret recipe.

    So yes, if it high shaft velocities you are generating high forces, than heat becomes and issue, but if you're able to remove those forces well....

    Again, different bikes require different characteristics, some will produce more heat than others. The 5 spot isn't one of those applications.

    Darren
    I go in for the big, simple physics generalizations. As Einstein said, the rest is just details.

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