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  1. #1
    Daniel the Dog
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    Why has Turner quit making a freeride bike?

    The RFX was a good freeride bike. Why have they quit making such an animal?


    Jaybo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The RFX was a good freeride bike. Why have they quit making such an animal?

    Jaybo
    Because it was more than $2000 for the frame. Kinda steep for a 2nd bike. It sold much lower volume than the rest of their line. I heard something like less than 100/yr.

    Many people were trashing SC Bullets for far less money.

    But Turner's not completely abandoned the freeride market. The "Highline" pictured in last years bike convention is targeted for the '05 model year. (maybe even late '04?)

    I think the 5 Spot made it clear that the RFX was well ahead of it's time . The RFX has an amazingly short resale time, so if you see one and are thinking about it...don't think too long.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  3. #3
    Daniel the Dog
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    Good points...my thoughts too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Because it was more than $2000 for the frame. Kinda steep for a 2nd bike. It sold much lower volume than the rest of their line. I heard something like less than 100/yr.

    Many people were trashing SC Bullets for far less money.

    But Turner's not completely abandoned the freeride market. The "Highline" pictured in last years bike convention is targeted for the '05 model year. (maybe even late '04?)

    I think the 5 Spot made it clear that the RFX was well ahead of it's time . The RFX has an amazingly short resale time, so if you see one and are thinking about it...don't think too long.
    The deal with freeride bikes is they get trashed! I would rather buy a Bullet and trash it for a grand then a Turner for 2k. I saw some freeriders and their bikes are scratched, dented, and beat up. It would make me pretty upset to dent my new 2k frame (although I would never pay 2k for a bike frame. Too cheap.). Regardless, I was wondering if Turner just said screw it and got out of the business.

    Jaybo

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    Seeing the same thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The deal with freeride bikes is they get trashed! I would rather buy a Bullet and trash it for a grand then a Turner for 2k. I saw some freeriders and their bikes are scratched, dented, and beat up. It would make me pretty upset to dent my new 2k frame (although I would never pay 2k for a bike frame. Too cheap.). Regardless, I was wondering if Turner just said screw it and got out of the business.
    Concur ...It seems to me that at the time, a lot of people either were young(er), daring , of limited funds and could care less how a bike pedaled, or were older, less daring, better funded and had the FR'er as a secondary ride. Neither group would have many members willing to dish +2k for a FR frame.

    Maybe things have changed since then. Maybe now more people are willing to spend big bucks on a FR frame. I wonder if Turner percieved a shift in the marketibility of higher priced FR frames, or managed serious cost control on the Highline? Consider the coup they wrought on the Burner by getting the initial retail down to $1395... Imagine the popularity of a Turner FR frame at a $1500 price point.

    We'll see, nothing is carved in stone. Turner chose not to build the Lucky 7 or the C-Note... So only time will tell.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 03-15-2004 at 10:35 AM.
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    I think that the final number of RFXs sold in '02 (their last year) was 73. Turner just thought it wasn't worth it. Take into consideration what has already been said here, that they were priced HIGH. I think that MSRP was $2100. That said: First, consider how many people are willing to pay that much money for a frame. Secondly, many of the people who do drop that kind of coin do so with the notion that they won't buy another frame for a while (unless this one breaks, which it won't).

    So in a way, Turner shot themselves in the foot by putting out an expen$ive frame that rides like a dream and doesn't NEED replacing for a long, long time.

    For a moment, I thought that I'd have been happier with a Foes Fly than I am with my RFX, but then I rode her again. It really does feel weird not buying a new frame for the new season. But for the first time, I really don't want to.

  6. #6
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    Yeah, what he said...

    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    ... many of the people who do drop that kind of coin do so with the notion that they won't buy another frame for a while (unless this one breaks, which it won't).

    ... It really does feel weird not buying a new frame for the new season. But for the first time, I really don't want to.
    People tend to hang on to their Turners...
    Just look for an XCE or 02 in the classifieds... Notice that the XCE owners didn't start selling off their bikes for the 5 Spot? No need.

    Don't feel like parting with your RFX? Gee I wonder why, all the best characteristics of the 5 Spot, longer travel AND it's indestructable too? Enjoy!
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  7. #7
    FM
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    Not just good.... possibly the best

    Here's the thing though, look at how much people's perception of "free-ride" has changed, and is continuuing to change, every year. Take a trip up to whistler's bike park and look at the lift lines. There are no shortage of $6k bikes. But, you will see tons of people with huge skills, riding beat up stinky's or used bullits. Many, if not most of them, don't do XC riding and thus don't really care about weight or pedalling efficiancy. They want beefy+ long travel. As a matter of fact, you see about 10 DH/FR bikes for every XC bike. The people I know who spend $2k+ on a FR frame are buying DHR's, M-1's, Dares, V10's, etc....all much bigger bikes than the RFX.


    The RFX is perfect for folks such as myself, who don't shuttle as much, and want a FR bike that can XC without penalty. Sort of a 5-spot that can do serious hucking, or accept a dual-crown for trips to the north shore or bike park. But, you can turn around and do a huge climb on it the next day, since it pedals just like a 5-spot, and can be built up in the low 30lb range (although mines about 36 now).

    Think of it as a "6-spot".

    Why did they quit making it?
    perhaps people want an XC bike, and a FR/DH bike, but not many people want both in the same bike. It makes sense for me though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The RFX was a good freeride bike. Why have they quit making such an animal?


    Jaybo

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The RFX was a good freeride bike. Why have they quit making such an animal?
    Cuz all the F'ers who drooled over them wouldn't pony up for one.

    The Highline will sell like hotcakes if they nail the estimated price of $1595 they told me at Interbike. A 7.5" Horst FR bike with a front derailleur, long seat tube, Turner quality, at a competitive price. Sure bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesh to Steel
    With people liking mongoose and trek bikes now, what's next in this crazy world? People disliking the bottlerocket?!

  9. #9
    Daniel the Dog
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    I wouldn't go that far....

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    I assure you, the Highline is still being worked on, and the plan is to have it in production for 05. Might show up early if all goes well with making the changes to get it ready to bring to market. It does seem a bit harsh to trash a frame for 2k, but those who spend that kind of dosh on a freeride bike also tend to take care of it more and not just outright thrash it. A Bullit is the type of frame and price range frame that most dont worry about bashing.
    I don't know how much dough you make, but I think 1k is a substantial amount of dough. You may not. Nonetheless, it seems easier and more palatable to trash a 1k frame then a 2k frame.

    By the way, I think the Bullit may be the finest freeride frame around. Just awesome! I would not want to climb with it too much, but for drops and fun it is tops.

    Jaybo

  10. #10
    FM
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    I don't think free-riding neccesarily invloves trashing a frame. It requires different equipment, but if you have the right gear, take care of it, and ride smart then it doesn't need to be any harder on your bike than XC riding. Of course there is a whole realm of riding that includes both XC and free-ride, this is what I bought my RFX for, and in that arena it blows the bullit away in my opinion.

    Based on the 3 santa cruz's I have owned, and my room-mates, I would say their quality control is inconsistent. Not bad, but not comparable with turner either.....I wouldn't buy another santa cruz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I don't know how much dough you make, but I think 1k is a substantial amount of dough. You may not. Nonetheless, it seems easier and more palatable to trash a 1k frame then a 2k frame.

    By the way, I think the Bullit may be the finest freeride frame around. Just awesome! I would not want to climb with it too much, but for drops and fun it is tops.

    Jaybo

  11. #11
    Daniel the Dog
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    It was my understanding that Turners are built at Kinesis...

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    I don't think free-riding neccesarily invloves trashing a frame. It requires different equipment, but if you have the right gear, take care of it, and ride smart then it doesn't need to be any harder on your bike than XC riding. Of course there is a whole realm of riding that includes both XC and free-ride, this is what I bought my RFX for, and in that arena it blows the bullit away in my opinion.

    Based on the 3 santa cruz's I have owned, and my room-mates, I would say their quality control is inconsistent. Not bad, but not comparable with turner either.....I wouldn't buy another santa cruz.
    Same place Santa Cruz bikes are built. Of course, you could make the strong argument that Turner provides better building materials. Anyone know anything about this?

    Jaybo

  12. #12
    FM
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    Turners aren't built by kinesis, they're built in oregon.... at least some of them are (and the rest are built in house I guess) There's more info on turners new website.Kinesis is not the company they deal with. I think people were claiming they were built overseas and turner provided plenty of info otherwise.

    It's funny, I have to say I have seen welds of varying quality on newer turners. None were bad, but the older turners look to have cleaner welds than a few of the newer ones I've seen. The cosmetic workmanship on my RFX is at least as good, if not much better, than the quality of my switchblade.

    The santa cruz's I've owned looked fine, but broke at welds, or were out of aligment. None of them came faced or chased. which is sad on any frame. You know, judging construction quality by the welds appearance is not a good indicator. Most welders make a second pass for cosmetics. The first pass is the one that counts. Welds are like make-up on women, just because they are pretty doesn't mean that they have their **** together inside. My switchblade for instance, welds look great, but inside the BB you can see some burn-through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Same place Santa Cruz bikes are built. Of course, you could make the strong argument that Turner provides better building materials. Anyone know anything about this?

    Jaybo

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog
    Cuz all the F'ers who drooled over them wouldn't pony up for one.

    The Highline will sell like hotcakes if they nail the estimated price of $1595 they told me at Interbike. A 7.5" Horst FR bike with a front derailleur, long seat tube, Turner quality, at a competitive price. Sure bet.
    Just wanted to follow this up with a pic. I agree, the frame should be killer.

    Anyway, I am interested to see how the Knolly V-tach does in sales. With all of the talk in this thread, it appears that freeriders don't want to spend around $2K for a frame of quality like the RFX. But isn't the V-Tach supposed to be pretty expensive? Like $2700 or something?
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  14. #14
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    welds

    i have afriend who is a frame builder. he told me some burn through is good because it means that the weld acheived full penetration.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLars
    With all of the talk in this thread, it appears that freeriders don't want to spend around $2K for a frame of quality like the RFX. But isn't the V-Tach supposed to be pretty expensive? Like $2700 or something?
    and how much is the Spec. demo 9?

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    welds are not doubled up...

    It's very bad practice to weld on top of another weld and I highly doubt any frame builder does it, even Huffy.

    As for Cosmetics, maybe your RFX was built by Ventana. :-)

    -Sp


    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Turners aren't built by kinesis, they're built in oregon.... at least some of them are (and the rest are built in house I guess) There's more info on turners new website.Kinesis is not the company they deal with. I think people were claiming they were built overseas and turner provided plenty of info otherwise.

    It's funny, I have to say I have seen welds of varying quality on newer turners. None were bad, but the older turners look to have cleaner welds than a few of the newer ones I've seen. The cosmetic workmanship on my RFX is at least as good, if not much better, than the quality of my switchblade.

    The santa cruz's I've owned looked fine, but broke at welds, or were out of aligment. None of them came faced or chased. which is sad on any frame. You know, judging construction quality by the welds appearance is not a good indicator. Most welders make a second pass for cosmetics. The first pass is the one that counts. Welds are like make-up on women, just because they are pretty doesn't mean that they have their **** together inside. My switchblade for instance, welds look great, but inside the BB you can see some burn-through.

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    Forgot my subject matter..

    I'm not really convinced of that. If a cosumer breaks a frame and it is warranteed, Turner loses revenue. If Turner built a frame that needed to be replaced frequently (ie, ellsworth), I would be looking elsewhere for a frame. $2.1k a pop ain't chump change.
    What I really thing it comes down to, especially around my area, is that its mostly kids that are freeriding and bullits and like priced bikes/frame are more in their reach.

    -Sp

    Quote Originally Posted by incubus

    So in a way, Turner shot themselves in the foot by putting out an expen$ive frame that rides like a dream and doesn't NEED replacing for a long, long time.

  18. #18
    FM
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    It is common practice among many manufacturers for aluminum frames. As a matter of fact, it does happen on all frames to an extent- The welder "tack welds" the frame together, and then makes passes over the tacks for the actual welding bead pass. Lots of repairs happen that way too- a friend broke his tracer, intense simpy stripped the paint and welded the seat tube back on. It held up fine too! ( I was horrified but it seems to be OK.)

    Manufacturers do just about anything to make alu. welds look good- consider cannondale for instance! Grinding and polishing welds sure can't be good for structural inegrity. I agree it may be poor practice but it does happen, and to a competant welder it's no big deal. I worked at a custom frame shop btw, we did steel and ti only... it's amazing the things a good frame builder can do. I was on the sales & design end so I don't claim to be an expert on fabrication, but I did learn a lot.

    Oh yeah- I wouldn't be horribly surprised if my RFX was built by ventana. Or if Sapa and Kinesis share some of the same employees. The guy who did Ti welding at the shop I worked at, had done moots stuff as well, and did helicopter & aerospace stuff as his main job. Bikes were his "easy & fun" job. There's no lack of work for good welders.

    Quote Originally Posted by SinglePivot
    It's very bad practice to weld on top of another weld and I highly doubt any frame builder does it, even Huffy.

    As for Cosmetics, maybe your RFX was built by Ventana. :-)

    -Sp

  19. #19
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    Since when did an RFX...

    ...actually cost a buyer >$2K? My came from one of the last runs and I got it with the Romic and bother rocker sets for $1.7K. Not that that is cheap by any stretch but a few hundo is few hundo.

    If somebody really, really wants one they can contact me. That said, I'd retire 'er as wall art before she went for cheap.

    Regardless, the price isn't really out of line compared to the Fly, Inferno, VPP Free or Ells Moment - none of which are pure apples to apples - but as close as you're going to get.

    Two iterations of my steed.

    Sean
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  20. #20
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    New question here. A few questions about the Highline. Any word on the targeted....

    ...frame weight? Also, will it have bushing pivots like the rest of the Turners? Those rockers can't be what the production ones will look like right? They need to cut costs somewhere to drop the price, but it looks like those things are solid 1/2" thick plate with no CNC work done at all.

  21. #21
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    It was a "Show-to-type"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarlygig
    ...frame weight? Also, will it have bushing pivots like the rest of the Turners? Those rockers can't be what the production ones will look like right? They need to cut costs somewhere to drop the price, but it looks like those things are solid 1/2" thick plate with no CNC work done at all.
    As opposed to Prototype.

    It was a quick concept design slapped together in a hurry to have for display at the show. I don't think it was a functional unit. They wanted to guage interest in such a product. The buzz has it that they are indeed following through with refinements and targeting an '05 production possibly sooner.
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  22. #22
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    Thought I would add the geometry to this discussion:


    I like the $1595 price! That is only a few hundred more than a Bullit...
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupboy
    ...actually cost a buyer >$2K? My came from one of the last runs and I got it with the Romic and bother rocker sets for $1.7K. Not that that is cheap by any stretch but a few hundo is few hundo.

    If somebody really, really wants one they can contact me. That said, I'd retire 'er as wall art before she went for cheap.

    Regardless, the price isn't really out of line compared to the Fly, Inferno, VPP Free or Ells Moment - none of which are pure apples to apples - but as close as you're going to get.

    Two iterations of my steed.

    Sean
    Sean,
    it looks like you have your RFX set up to be pretty XC oriented, especially with the forks (Fox and an older Marzocchi?). Which rockers are you running, and have you measured the head angle with these forks? I have the 6" rockers and will probably be running a 130mm fork, but am leaning towards a Z1 over a Firefly largely because of the increased A2C height on the Z1, being afraid of too steep a head angle on such an agressive bike. Any thoughts on that matter, and more generally how the RFX does as more of heavy duty "trail bike" rather than a light duty "free ride" bike?

  24. #24
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    Set up...

    with 5" rockers in both pictures. I ran the 6" rockers with the Zoke (that's a '03 Z1FRQR20 sans stickers) and it felt great to me. The Zoke is a rather tall slider compared to the Fox - 485mm ride height vs. 470mm ride height - closer to a full 1" taller unweighted.

    Go here to get fork specs:
    http://www.maverickamerican.com/pdfs...comparison.xls

    Yep, set up for mostly XC. I wanted a really stout frameset that pedaled well under my big culo. I'm also looking at the Manitou Firefly w/ SPV. The air-air combo is nice and light for XC riding in MN - very coil-like feel from both dampers. I think my custom valved Romic and the Firefly would feel great together.

    When I head out West I'd prefer to have coils and the ability to run my 8" caliper/rotor up front vs. current configuration of 7"/7".

    A tallish 130mm fork plus the 6" rockers felt nice. I'm also considering a 6" travel Boxxer, a Z150 (not that much taller than a Z1FR), or the Sherman Slider.

    The RFX pedals great - in most respects the big brother of the 5S. A slider with a lock-down would be nice for protracted fire road or slog climbs - i.e. up Porc Rim where my Z1 was very handy.

    Sean

    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    Sean,
    it looks like you have your RFX set up to be pretty XC oriented, especially with the forks (Fox and an older Marzocchi?). Which rockers are you running, and have you measured the head angle with these forks? I have the 6" rockers and will probably be running a 130mm fork, but am leaning towards a Z1 over a Firefly largely because of the increased A2C height on the Z1, being afraid of too steep a head angle on such an agressive bike. Any thoughts on that matter, and more generally how the RFX does as more of heavy duty "trail bike" rather than a light duty "free ride" bike?
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