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  1. #1
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    What's the big difference?

    Was pondering, what would be the biggest difference I'd notice switching from a 06 rfx to a 09/new dw spot? I'd move everything over from the rfx to the spot, including the talas 36. What would be the biggest difference? the weight? geometry? "pedalability"? Reason for the questions is that some of the local trails are expanding to more "mountainous" terrain where there's a lot of tech climb and a lot of gnar downs. the tech climbs hurt pretty good on the rfx. I gotta say though, it's going to take a lot impress me b/c the rfx is pretty flippin' awesome. flame on!

    here's the current rig:

  2. #2
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    oh yeah, the pic shows rfx rockers, I'm running 5.5 spot rockers now.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Tiles
    oh yeah, the pic shows rfx rockers, I'm running 5.5 spot rockers now.
    Geometry is going to be the biggest difference. The new DW spots are pretty beef, and can take some serious abuse. I'd stick with the RFX, and hold out for the DW RFX. The spot might be a step backwards in terms of DH handling.
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  4. #4
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    The main thing for me was simply how it rockets forward with each pedal stroke. Uphill is especially good, whereas my 6-pack/rfx squats a lot and it just feels like it's robbing tons of energy comparatively. It's hard to really quantify until you've done it on the DW, but yes, IMO this is a pretty big improvement. The suspension quality is better too with the light-compression damping. It kind of depends on your current settings and such, but the 5spot with the air-shock was one of the few air-shock equipped bikes I feel has decent suspension quality, rather than just being over-damped and harsh like many others. The spot is a little less agressive, but not by much, and it can take a 160 fork.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #5
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    do the new spots have iscg tabs? if not, that's one thing I'd miss from the rfx. I know I can use the sandwich plate but I've always liked using the tabs.

    I wish there was somebody local that had a dw I could try...maybe I'll be the first so ppl that are in my boat down the road can try mine ;-)

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    ISCG tabs are not standard but I believe DT will add them by request. Not for free but I cannot remember the cost.

  7. #7
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    no ISCG tabs - JM nailed it - the anti squat is all it's cracked up to be...climbing is a big improvement...search for posts by 1soulrider - his experiences were a big contribution to my going from 08 RFX to 10 spot - I wrote a mini review at some point too...

  8. #8
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    JM speaks the truth, however, suspension squat on the TNT version isn't nearly as bad as the Horst LInk version. If you will be DHing your bike on the steeps, and catching air every chance you get, I'd hold on to your current RFX, and hold out for the new one. The Spot is still really an AM bike. Here's a couple of example of what the old RFX is capable of.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What's the big difference?-tb7.jpg  

    What's the big difference?-money6.jpg  

    What's the big difference?-bj14.jpg  

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  9. #9
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    oh yeah, I'm fully aware of the burliness the rfx possesses. I've been thrashing one off and on since the 06 version came out. I guess the point is, I saw the thread about people running the 36 on the newer dw spots with good success and the fact that they pedal so good - just put 2 + 2 together that it might be viable for me. the type of riding I do is tech singetrack with the occasional mountain run and some stuntage here and there. no drops to flat and usually I'm pretty smooth. thinking the rfx might be overkill if the new spot is everything peeps are saying it is...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The main thing for me was simply how it rockets forward with each pedal stroke. Uphill is especially good, whereas my 6-pack/rfx squats a lot and it just feels like it's robbing tons of energy comparatively. It's hard to really quantify until you've done it on the DW, but yes, IMO this is a pretty big improvement. The suspension quality is better too with the light-compression damping. It kind of depends on your current settings and such, but the 5spot with the air-shock was one of the few air-shock equipped bikes I feel has decent suspension quality, rather than just being over-damped and harsh like many others. The spot is a little less agressive, but not by much, and it can take a 160 fork.
    What about steep gnarly stuff and high speed twitch with the steeper head angle compared to the rfx? Do you feel like you can plow through every thing like the rfx?

  11. #11
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    nevermind
    Last edited by kiwirider; 03-09-2010 at 10:13 PM.
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  12. #12
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    I currently have both RFX (08) and the DW Spot. Upon getting the DW Spot I at first transferred all the RFX goodies (Van 36, Atlas cranks-bash-Stinger chain tensioner, etc.)

    Verdict: The Spot was just as enjoyable as the RFX on the downs. I feel it can do what the RFX can do on the descents. Plowability? Yes, with the Van36.
    Jayem speaks the truth when it comes to pedalling. The RFX squats down while the Spot scoots forward. The thing is easier to climb whether smooth or technical. Even more so on the technical.

    BUT, I have a feeling thrashing the Spot like that will eventually lead to wear, tear and breakage.

    Keep the RFX for the thrash sessions and the Spot for the AM/trailriding.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Railer
    Better Question:

    Why did pjlama go from owning 2 DW 5-spots to owning a Pivot and very possibly a Giant.
    Don't believe the hype

    I say if you have to ask this question, you probably should have never owned the RFX to begin with. So many options with that bike!
    The DW Spot flat out rips. He probably cycled through bikes because he's new to riding and is in the mindset that changing bikes will make him better. Plus you have his ear.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobym2
    I currently have both RFX (08) and the DW Spot. Upon getting the DW Spot I at first transferred all the RFX goodies (Van 36, Atlas cranks-bash-Stinger chain tensioner, etc.)

    Verdict: The Spot was just as enjoyable as the RFX on the downs. I feel it can do what the RFX can do on the descents. Plowability? Yes, with the Van36.
    Jayem speaks the truth when it comes to pedalling. The RFX squats down while the Spot scoots forward. The thing is easier to climb whether smooth or technical. Even more so on the technical.

    BUT, I have a feeling thrashing the Spot like that will eventually lead to wear, tear and breakage.

    Keep the RFX for the thrash sessions and the Spot for the AM/trailriding.

    this is the kind of info I'm looking for. I have a feeling the fork (for obvious reasons) is really going to dictate the handling characteristics of the spot.

    As far as thrashing, I really don't do that. There's nowhere around here for that type of riding. There are shuttle runs not too far from me but I'm not really into that. I'm into epic trails with tech gnar decents, tough climbs and the occasional small creek gap. I think the dw spot with the talas might would work just fine...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC
    What about steep gnarly stuff and high speed twitch with the steeper head angle compared to the rfx? Do you feel like you can plow through every thing like the rfx?
    I had my RFX that day, and the 5 spot didn't seem to give up much in that department. Another way to put is that when I demoed the dw sultan, I felt that the 5 spot was a much more agressive bike, much better angles, and so on. Sure, the sultan may not endo and carry more speed or whatever, but I felt much more comfortable railing on the 5 spot, making quick line changes, and taking downhills at speed. I think the 160mm fork will make a difference in this area, remember that it will slacken the bike out quite a bit.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Railer
    Or maybe riding in NM improved his skills such that he outgrew the new crop of Turners. I'm not holding my breath for the RFX either...
    LMAO

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobym2
    I currently have both RFX (08) and the DW Spot. Upon getting the DW Spot I at first transferred all the RFX goodies (Van 36, Atlas cranks-bash-Stinger chain tensioner, etc.)

    Verdict: The Spot was just as enjoyable as the RFX on the downs. I feel it can do what the RFX can do on the descents. Plowability? Yes, with the Van36.
    Jayem speaks the truth when it comes to pedalling. The RFX squats down while the Spot scoots forward. The thing is easier to climb whether smooth or technical. Even more so on the technical.

    BUT, I have a feeling thrashing the Spot like that will eventually lead to wear, tear and breakage.

    Keep the RFX for the thrash sessions and the Spot for the AM/trailriding.
    I agree with most of this. In going from a 07 RFX to the new Spot I felt that I gave up nothing and gained quite a bit. The bike works better uphill and down. The increase in lateral rigidity was a big plus for me, you really can feel it when loading into corners hard. The headangle on the DW Spot with a 36 is about 67.5, right about the same as my old RFX. The bb is lower the frame mass feels lower, all of this makes it corner noticeably better than the RFX.
    About the new Spot not taking a thrashing, within reason it should hold up very well. Obviously not a huck bike, but it isn't fragile either.
    I generally never keep a bike for more than a season, going on 18 months with my Spot and no plans to buy a different bike any time soon.

  18. #18
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    damn you all, i was quite happy with my 6pack before this thread...........
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  19. #19
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    I spaced down a 36 RC2 to 150mm - head angle is 68 degrees (same as RFX) and I have the benefit of bigger stanchions than say a Fox 32 or RS Rev - plus the bike climbs great and doesn't feel choppered like it does when trying to climb steep stuff at 160mm. The slight reduction in a-c at 150mm does make a noticeable difference..

  20. #20
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    Also thinking about a 08RFX --> DW spot switch, probably in a few months.

    I wonder what the 08 RFX would feel like with a 7.5x2.0 shock. Theoretically is should result in a ~140mm rear travel, lower BB and somewhat slacker angles. and thus climb a little better, and most importantly would be a good quick comparison on how the 20mm travel reduction in the rear will affect the technical merits of the RFX. I need to find such a shock from a friend and try it out. Or even better, it really is about time for a DW spot test ride.
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  21. #21
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    Mr. T, if you're running 5.5 rockers now on the rfx then it makes sense to go with the dw spot.

    tald, I don't think the 7.5x2 on the 08 rfx will improve anything, i.e. intended ratio, wheelpath, etc. is better for performance than lower bb, slacker, and it definatly won't climb better!

  22. #22
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    Get the DW Spot. You won't give up anything on the downs and gain a whole bunch of speed on the climbs. What's not to like?
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  23. #23
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    Maybe I'm an idiot, but I'm going from a DW Spot to an RFX. Keep yours I would say. The DW Spot has a lot of pedal kickback you won't like (I don't). Yes, the DW pedals better uphill, but on the rough flat sections while pedalling seated I notice the kickback too much.
    Last edited by zonoskar; 03-10-2010 at 01:49 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar
    Maybe I'm an idiot, but I'm going from a DW Spot to an RFX. Keep yours I would say. The DW Spot has a lot of pedal kickback you won't like (I don't). Yes, the DW pedals better uphill, but on the rough flat sections while pedalling seated I notice the kickback too much.
    "Pedal kickback" is one of those things that some feel, some feel a lot (you) or some never feel ever (me). To say to the OP that he "won't like the DW Spot's pedal feedback" doesn't really tell him anything.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    "Pedal kickback" is one of those things that some feel, some feel a lot (you) or some never feel ever (me). To say to the OP that he "won't like the DW Spot's pedal feedback" doesn't really tell him anything.
    Well, it tells him to try a DW Spot out before he sells his current RFX.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar
    Well, it tells him to try a DW Spot out before he sells his current RFX.
    Yep, that's what's killing me. Nobody around these parts has one.

    Another killer is I did some work on the rfx last night (new Hope Tech brakes) and threw it on the scale. It's a tick under 31lbs with a coil shock. How much lighter would the dwspot be than the rfx? Or is this about weight or simply "pedalability"? I'm confusing myself

  27. #27
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    my DW Spot is less than 1/2 pound lighter than my 08 RFX was....parts were all swapped directly over (apart from the seat post) don't change bikes for the weight savings...it's about the DW Link.

    Zonoskar as I recall you were never really comfortable on your DW Spot were you? I wonder if it started gettig into your head and contributed to the bike not being quite right for you...mtn biking is like all sports - 90+ % mental IMO.....

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    Zonoskar as I recall you were never really comfortable on your DW Spot were you? I wonder if it started gettig into your head and contributed to the bike not being quite right for you...mtn biking is like all sports - 90+ % mental IMO.....
    After the last update, I am perfectly comfortable on my 5Spot, but you have a point. Maybe the struggle to the get the right position on the bike has influenced my mindset towards the 5Spot.

    Then again, I really notice the pedal kickback It's like this board proclaims, the 5Spot is a superb climber and a fabulous descender. I get the impression that's all riding is about in the US. Over here in Europe, there are flat bits in between and that's where I notice the pedal kickback the most. On rough, flat sections where you have to pedal hard it feels like someone is pulling on the chain. You can easily check this by picking up the rear of the bike and slamming it to the ground, compressing the suspension. The pedals will rotate backwards quite a bit. Not so on the RFX I think.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar
    Maybe I'm an idiot, but I'm going from a DW Spot to an RFX. Keep yours I would say. The DW Spot has a lot of pedal kickback you won't like (I don't). Yes, the DW pedals better uphill, but on the rough flat sections while pedalling seated I notice the kickback too much.
    Where and in what conditions exactly are you feeling "pedal kickback"? That's not something that you really should feel on any dw-link bike, and you wont' hear too many riders comment about that in relation to dw-links historically.

    As a matter of fact, the few times I've come across a rider talking about "pedal kickback" and a dw-link bike, they are in reality feeling the increase in resistance in the cranks as they literally climb over rocks at slow speed. (The bike lifts up vertically over the rocks at low speed because there is not enough impact force to compress the suspension fully to absorb it. It takes energy to lift your bike and body vertically over the rock and that resistance is what a couple people have initially equated to pedal feedback.)

    If you want to feel some real pedal feedback, give a new VPP2 Nomad or Blur LT a try. That should give you something good to compare to. Nothing against the Blur and Nomad, I think they are great bikes, but this trait is pretty well documented on the two. Even in an extreme case like that, not too many riders seem to care, those bikes are pretty well loved!
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Where and in what conditions exactly are you feeling "pedal kickback"? That's not something that you really should feel on any dw-link bike, and you wont' hear too many riders comment about that in relation to dw-links historically.
    I feel it most when you cleared an obstacle while seated and pedaling on a level track (eg. when you ride over a tree root). The suspension releases and your pedal momentarily has less resistance. It feels a little like the chain lets go. Basically the opposite of pedal kickback, but don't know how to call it. Maybe I'm running too much sag (17mm I think) or maybe I'm seated too far back, or maybe it's not pedal kickback related and it's called something else But then again, what about the suspension slamming test? The pedals still move backwards a lot!

    I have never ridden one of the bikes you mentioned, my experience with long-travel suspension bikes is with Specialized Enduro and Alutech Wildsau, both Horst-link bikes. Chaingrowth on those bikes is minimal (max 7mm I think).

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar
    I feel it most when you cleared an obstacle while seated and pedaling on a level track (eg. when you ride over a tree root). The suspension releases and your pedal momentarily has less resistance. It feels a little like the chain lets go. Basically the opposite of pedal kickback, but don't know how to call it. Maybe I'm running too much sag (17mm I think) or maybe I'm seated too far back, or maybe it's not pedal kickback related and it's called something else But then again, what about the suspension slamming test? The pedals still move backwards a lot!

    I have never ridden one of the bikes you mentioned, my experience with long-travel suspension bikes is with Specialized Enduro and Alutech Wildsau, both Horst-link bikes. Chaingrowth on those bikes is minimal (max 7mm I think).
    I'm confused as to what your actual issue is, but suggest you keep playing with settings.

    IME the dwspot is finnicky in regard to rear shock setup, and rider position, specifically saddle fore/aft location. I'm not necessarily suggesting your move your saddle, but I think you'll find that where you position yourself on the saddle in varying terrain is important. Also coming from a Horst-link bike, and TNT, I can tell you that some adjustments to your riding style are necessary when moving over to the DW platform. Specifically in flat, chunky terrain, under power.

    I haven't tried the suspension slamming test you describe, but can't say I recall feeling any kickback when landing a drop.

  32. #32
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    The 'slamming test' is fairly meaningless. Nearly every squish bike made has some chain growth, this is why you need a tensioning device if running a ss set up.
    Bikes with the main pivot run around the bb shell are the exception.

  33. #33
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    I've felt a similar pedal stiffening (maybe feedback is the right word) on the first few rides of my DWSpot in fast, flat, stutter-bump pedaling sections- think pedaling fast on a dowhill sloping, washboarded fire road or maybe a cobblestone path. I've either gotten used to this or have "tuned" it out as I've further dialed-in shock as I do not notice it anymore. It was not an annoying feeling, simply something I noticed momentarily.

    All things considered, I would not trade the pedaling characteristics of this DW bike for any other FS implementation I've ridden (single-pivot, VPP1, horst-link, faux-bar)

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    If you want to feel some real pedal feedback, give a new VPP2 Nomad or Blur LT a try. That should give you something good to compare to. Nothing against the Blur and Nomad, I think they are great bikes, but this trait is pretty well documented on the two. Even in an extreme case like that, not too many riders seem to care, those bikes are pretty well loved!
    this is a logical fallacy, referred to as a "red herring".
    it does not address the OPs concern, but includes a negative comment to an unrelated product, as some sort of comparison.
    there are other fallacies in there as well, but i'll try not to be a huge nerd pointing them all out. (the blur is popular, the blur has pedal feedback, as does the dw, therefore the dw should be popular).

    but either way, its a bit unseemly to read dw talking sh*t about other bikes online. not something you see very often from the other manufacturer boards, and with good reason...
    here we go again

  35. #35
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    Disclaimer-- I ride a Turner

    Quote Originally Posted by eleven-yo
    this is a logical fallacy, referred to as a "red herring".
    it does not address the OPs concern, but includes a negative comment to an unrelated product, as some sort of comparison.
    there are other fallacies in there as well, but i'll try not to be a huge nerd pointing them all out. (the blur is popular, the blur has pedal feedback, as does the dw, therefore the dw should be popular).

    but either way, its a bit unseemly to read dw talking sh*t about other bikes online. not something you see very often from the other manufacturer boards, and with good reason...
    Is pedal feedback something that can be quantified? I don't know whether dw is talking smack or whether there is data to support his statement. And if there is data, is it still a 'red herring'?
    Some folks come here lookin for a fight, while others are quick to defend any perceived threat. Really now, is this neccessary?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Tiles
    some of the local trails are expanding to more "mountainous" terrain where there's a lot of tech climb and a lot of gnar downs. the tech climbs hurt pretty good on the rfx. I gotta say though, it's going to take a lot impress me b/c the rfx is pretty flippin' awesome. flame on!
    here's the current rig:
    Hey snapperhead( Son of Zod )
    Yinz get speed bumps installed in your hood?!!!har.har.har.....
    Better just get with the 20 ten's. DW rocks all around. My Sultan eats these Western PA climbs And the climbs around these neck of the woods are 80% steeper then Charlotte, NC

  37. #37
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    dude, I thought Tyski gobbled you up. You're still alive?!?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by insighter
    Is pedal feedback something that can be quantified? I don't know whether dw is talking smack or whether there is data to support his statement. And if there is data, is it still a 'red herring'?
    Some folks come here lookin for a fight, while others are quick to defend any perceived threat. Really now, is this neccessary?
    There is software over at bikechecker.com with which you can quantify some of the suspension traits.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by eleven-yo
    but either way, its a bit unseemly to read dw talking sh*t about other bikes online. not something you see very often from the other manufacturer boards, and with good reason...
    Read his comments again and you will find that he actually praised the SC bikes - twice. Stating that VPP suffers feedback isn't talking sh*t, it is a well known fact, but overall VPP performs very well.
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  40. #40
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    its only smack because its not the subject

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    Read his comments again and you will find that he actually praised the SC bikes - twice. Stating that VPP suffers feedback isn't talking sh*t, it is a well known fact, but overall VPP performs very well.
    I don't disagree with you kiwirider, but if I was talking to someone at Bike Company X, and said "I have had two of your bicycles, and both have broken within a year of riding". And that person replied "Bike Company Y's frames break all the time, they are really great bikes and people like them a lot, but they break a lot too" in response, then I would also call that a Red Herring fallacy. The distinction is that its a Red Herring wrapped in a "compliment sandwich" which makes the herring that much more palatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by insighter
    Is pedal feedback something that can be quantified? I don't know whether dw is talking smack or whether there is data to support his statement. And if there is data, is it still a 'red herring'? Some folks come here lookin for a fight, while others are quick to defend any perceived threat. Really now, is this neccessary?.
    I am certainly not out for any fight, i was really being a nerd and saying that what dw said was a logical fallacy - it may or may not be true. Maybe by saying he was "talking sh*t" I set the wrong tone, i didn't mean that in a harsh way, just that its odd because most of the company reps on the different groups seem to go out of their way to avoid talking about anybody else's bikes - and I think thats probably on purpose. My point was just this: _dw side-stepped the issue that someone felt pedal feedback in one of his designs by bringing up another company's bikes - and that is called a red herring. Often this is used as a distraction (thought it may not have been _dw's intention, perhaps he can chime in again and clarify) Your suggestion for data to support the theory or claim is a great one and would have been a more appropriate response if that type of information exists. And to answer your question, if data was presented in a way that didn't divert the conversation but addressed the OP's criticism, then that would not be a red herring. And it would probably be interesting to see as well.

    I like to debate and argue all sorts of sh*t, but in a friendly way and so that it makes logical sense. Discussion of differing opinions exercises the brain and is more thought provoking than people getting stuck in ideological rather than intellectual debates. I hope more of the latter happens on these boards, I learn more by reading them. And that makes me feel less guilty doing it while I should be working.
    Last edited by eleven-yo; 03-12-2010 at 01:39 AM.
    here we go again

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Tiles
    dude, I thought Tyski gobbled you up. You're still alive?!?!
    Har! Back in Pixburg man. Keep it real for the Pavers
    DW will be killer for your area for sure

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    waiting to hear back from DT on a couple things. we shall see.

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    Tiles, Joe T is on a DW Spot if your looking for someone who has one in the area.

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    I had no idea. Thanks Phil.

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