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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRracer View Post
    That is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be shared. Most Homers already know the life span of Turner's but it is good for people to be reminded of that and for those trolling to see.
    ^mmmm....that all depends on your riding style and what you ride, no way a frame is going to last me 12 years.

  2. #102
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    Yeah I would be concerned riding a 12 year old aluminum frame, Turner's are solid and all but they are not designed to have that kind of life span like implied. I usually ride an aluminum FS frame for 3-5 years and feel lucky if I don't have any issues

  3. #103
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    That's just flat out wrong. There are 30 year old mountain bikes made from steel and aluminum still cranking away on the trails every day. To say that an '06 bike is well out of it's usable lifespan is ridiculous.

    Maybe for you it is, but painting every bike and rider with a broad brush is pretty foolish.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRracer View Post
    That may be changing soon. I would suspect a 29er. I am just speculating.
    Correct. An alloy Sultan.I am sure the dozen or so riders that buy it will like it.

    I gave up waiting on a carbon Sultan and picked up a bike from a different brand. Carbon and 29'ers go together like pizza and beer.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by apexspeed View Post
    That's just flat out wrong. There are 30 year old mountain bikes made from steel and aluminum still cranking away on the trails every day. To say that an '06 bike is well out of it's usable lifespan is ridiculous.

    Maybe for you it is, but painting every bike and rider with a broad brush is pretty foolish.
    I said I would be concerned, never said it wasn't usable, and I wasn't "painting" anything

    Email Turner and ask them, I have no doubt there are older Turners still around depending on how they have been ridden, but my guess is Turner would say 5 years of life span on avg. Also, comparing old steel hardtails from 30 years ago to modern aluminum FS frames is pretty foolish

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by polarflux View Post
    Re: the carbon debate, Richard Cunningham, in an "Ask Pink Bike" article today answering a reader's query whether to choose an alumimum or carbon framed bike, lays out a very solid argument in favor of carbon. In short, carbon comes out of the mold straight, is tuff as hell, and can be layed up any way you want, and is completely repeatable. Alumunum on the other hand has to be over built by the nature of the material (so its heavier then), and has to be heat treated and aligned. Not awesome for suspension pivots. RC argues that aluminum has its place for test mules and price points, but when your going for it carbon is the choice. Carbon has a longer engineering time, but once its dialed thats that. I don't know, but I have to think DT is probably looking at things throught somewhat the same lens. I love the look of CNC sculped bit on my bike, but I'm also to the point that I'd like give a plastic RFX a go and see how it stacks against my Burner. I dont' think Turner is going anywhere, by the way. I think you might see Turner partner with somebody because of the cash needs of carbon bike development, but that is another deal.
    Actually, having had a recent conversation with DT, there are not too many cost benefits as a small manufacturer when it comes to designing and making carbon bikes over aluminum.

    As to the OP,...The Turner forum is the only manufacturer forum that I visit here on MTBR. It's like a good old pair of shoes. I can't really say the same thing about my bike, though. I'm still wearing it.

    What happened to this forum?-sedona-010.5.jpg

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Tuners glory days were really the horst link bikes. I think aesthetically the proportion of the frames and rockers were just pleasing to the eye. the industrial look with the proportionate look and the amazing ride and service made Turner the industry bench mark. The truth is humans are visual creatures and persuaded by looks. Once Turner went to the DW Link aluminum frame, no offense, but the proportions of the rear triangle to the front just looked off and didn't make one really desire dropping 3k on a frame that looked disproportionate and not pleasing to the eye.

    look at Yeti sb line, it looks stunning. New carbon Turners look fairly good too, but I think a lot of damage was done with the DW aluminum, and now DW Link bikes are pretty much commoditized and sold according to who has the most capital and best marketing.
    Now, this is an interesting assessment. There were some heated discussions back in the day when DT went DW. I should know.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDude View Post
    Now, this is an interesting assessment. There were some heated discussions back in the day when DT went DW. I should know.

    Well, this has made this more interesting. So would this be the return of the homer?
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDude View Post
    Actually, having had a recent conversation with DT, there are not too many cost benefits as a small manufacturer when it comes to designing and making carbon bikes over aluminum.

    As to the OP,...The Turner forum is the only manufacturer forum that I visit here on MTBR. It's like a good old pair of shoes. I can't really say the same thing about my bike, though. I'm still wearing it.

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    OP here, that was my point. The Turner forum was in it's day a great group of peeps with a Turner or two in common. Even outsiders without a Turner such as myself dropped in on occasion to check out the latest humor infused responses. I recently came to realize Turners were not really in the picture as they once were. As someone up above stated, most of the newer up and coming riders never even heard of a Turner. Yet back in the day they were a lust worthy top end bike that everyone knew about.

    Carbon / aluminum, and keeping up to the ever ending changing industry seems to be their downfall. Intense just recently announced [quietly] aluminum is a thing of the past. No more made in the USA hand made aluminum frames. Only carbon made over seas. I find it very sad that a company such as Intense who built their reputation on hand build in the USA aluminum frames is forced to follow carbon only sales. For several years they offered both. Now Turner seems to be heading in the same direction. The industry is changing faster than most smaller boutique companies can keep up.

    Sad story, here > https://m.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-the-table.html
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Dude, I'm in Illinois. The only place anyone would come from that would say this area is hilly is Kansas.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    OP here, that was my point. The Turner forum was in it's day a great group of peeps with a Turner or two in common. Even outsiders without a Turner such as myself dropped in on occasion to check out the latest humor infused responses. I recently came to realize Turners were not really in the picture as they once were. As someone up above stated, most of the newer up and coming riders never even heard of a Turner. Yet back in the day they were a lust worthy top end bike that everyone knew about.

    Carbon / aluminum, and keeping up to the ever ending changing industry seems to be their downfall. Intense just recently announced [quietly] aluminum is a thing of the past. No more made in the USA hand made aluminum frames. Only carbon made over seas. I find it very sad that a company such as Intense who built their reputation on hand build in the USA aluminum frames is forced to follow carbon only sales. For several years they offered both. Now Turner seems to be heading in the same direction. The industry is changing faster than most smaller boutique companies can keep up.

    Sad story, here > https://m.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-the-table.html
    It's possible that I misunderstood him.

    That said, I told him that if he really wanted to stay somewhat relevant in the next few years he's gonna have to produce a light dh trail worthy 29'er. He sorta shrugged it off, and I even gave him a name for it. The RFX29.

    He too might want to shed the rear d'er in favor of a gearbox, but that might be a little to risky.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by apexspeed View Post
    That's just flat out wrong. There are 30 year old mountain bikes made from steel and aluminum still cranking away on the trails every day. To say that an '06 bike is well out of it's usable lifespan is ridiculous.

    Maybe for you it is, but painting every bike and rider with a broad brush is pretty foolish.
    Do some reading on the fatigue life of Aluminum! It's not broad brush it's material science.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    OP here, that was my point. The Turner forum was in it's day a great group of peeps with a Turner or two in common. Even outsiders without a Turner such as myself dropped in on occasion to check out the latest humor infused responses. I recently came to realize Turners were not really in the picture as they once were. As someone up above stated, most of the newer up and coming riders never even heard of a Turner. Yet back in the day they were a lust worthy top end bike that everyone knew about.

    Carbon / aluminum, and keeping up to the ever ending changing industry seems to be their downfall. Intense just recently announced [quietly] aluminum is a thing of the past. No more made in the USA hand made aluminum frames. Only carbon made over seas. I find it very sad that a company such as Intense who built their reputation on hand build in the USA aluminum frames is forced to follow carbon only sales. For several years they offered both. Now Turner seems to be heading in the same direction. The industry is changing faster than most smaller boutique companies can keep up.

    Sad story, here > https://m.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-the-table.html
    I think back in the day, with bikes, forks and components, there was a lots of modification going on. Changing travel, altering angles. Heck, I remember when we had to put our cogs together to make the perfect cassette. For good or for bad, those days are gone. Heck, in that story about Intense, they mentioned that frame sales have dried up, people want complete bikes. Bikes now are an appliance. Turner was one of the few companies that made high end bikes. Now, there are so many companies making good bikes - many of which we don't even get in the USA.

    The Intense story is sad as it is a reflection of the bike industry as a whole. But we, the consumer, are to blame.
    Last edited by Vespasianus; 1 Week Ago at 02:39 PM.
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  13. #113
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    Dave's last comment to me when I left was "it's all about bikes."

    It's hard to say what direction he will go, but I'm confident that he will enjoy the ride.

    Cheers, Dave!

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle View Post
    all of your moms happened, that what - there is little time and no longer a need to e-masturbate here with all you douchebagz
    As long as you're still masturbating in public somewhere, that's the main thing. Leopards/spots...


  15. #115
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    I think Dave never really reached the heights of the 06 RFX - the nadir of bike design and still looking exactly the same in my garage...

  16. #116
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    Hi, just hijacking another post about the RFX and the possibility of an updated one. Dmar123 you are right. Every year the Treks. Specialised etc brands turn out new models, colours etc. This keeps the brands in the limelight. I guess that's why the interest in other forums. Turner don't and in my opinion that's all for the better.
    If I was going to buy from the mainstream manufacturers I would wait a year and get one in the sale with thousands ££££$$$$$$ off. But I'm not as I reckon my DWR 5 Spot is just as good. You see lots of Volkswagen's but not many Ferrari's.
    Skye

  17. #117
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    If the PB poll is any indication of the market as a whole, it shows exactly what happened to this forum:

    Pinkbike Poll
    Which is the brand of the complete bike will you likely purchase next?

    45
    Antidote

    8
    Airborne

    2
    Atomlab

    114
    Banshee

    12
    Balfa

    13
    Bergamont

    6
    Bionicon

    6
    Black Market

    13
    BTR

    19
    BMC

    63
    Canfield

    63
    Cannondale

    392
    Canyon

    59
    Chromag

    373
    Commencal

    9
    Corsair

    6
    Cove

    43
    Cube

    21
    Dartmoor

    194
    Devinci

    29
    Diamondback

    18
    DMR

    17
    Ellsworth

    250
    Evil

    7
    Felt

    16
    Focus

    10
    Foes

    8
    Fugi

    73
    GT

    7
    Gary Fisher

    28
    Ghost

    307
    Giant

    8
    Haibike

    9
    Haro

    111
    Ibis

    185
    Intense

    17
    Iron Horse

    8
    Jamis

    10
    KHS

    125
    Knolly

    219
    Kona

    5
    KTM

    28
    Lapierre

    4
    Litespeed

    23
    Liteville

    2
    Look

    22
    Marin

    13
    Merida

    7
    Mongoose

    67
    Mondraker

    8
    Morewood

    12
    Morpheus

    39
    Nicolai

    40
    Niner

    206
    Norco

    61
    Nukeproof

    76
    NS

    91
    Orange

    27
    Orbea

    22
    On-one

    7
    Patrol

    195
    Pivot

    60
    Propain

    29
    Polygon

    12
    Pole

    35
    Radon

    14
    Ragley

    5
    Raliegh

    243
    Rocky Mountain

    13
    Rose

    1
    Rotwild

    19
    Saracen

    26
    Salsa

    659
    Santa Cruz

    4
    Schwinn

    139
    Scott

    2
    Seven

    10
    Solid

    497
    Specialized

    25
    Surly

    4
    Sunn

    5
    Titus

    3
    Tomac

    372
    Transition

    379
    Trek

    18
    Turner


    49
    Whyte Bikes

    377
    Yeti

    850
    YT Industries

    59
    Zerode

    117
    Other

    34
    Unno

    381
    Undecided

    If Turner bikes are being purchased by fewer and fewer riders, then who keeps the forum alive? Yes, there are other social media outlets that compete with this board, and yes that has decreased interaction, but again, if fewer Turners are being sold, well....
    Beware the lollipop of mediocrity...lick it once and you will suck forever.

  18. #118
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    I think I'm getting a Fugi.

  19. #119
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    What is really telling is the amount of time between these threads. Plus, I think DJ is maybe attracted to smell of blood...

    At any rate, I hope he's got at least one more round before he calls it quits. Add Turner quality and durability, I will probably be set with enough used Turner options to finish off my years. I'm something less than finicky these days, so if it breathes I will ride it. #justaskyouknowho.

  20. #120
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    beat Ellsworth...all that matters.

    YT though! ....

    I compared these two brands a few posts back, but hey what do I know.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by bond007jms View Post
    If Turner bikes are being purchased by fewer and fewer riders, then who keeps the forum alive? Yes, there are other social media outlets that compete with this board, and yes that has decreased interaction, but again, if fewer Turners are being sold, well....
    Those figures don't paint a great picture eh.
    When you offer fewer models of course there's going to be less people purchasing that brand overall (and then talking about them on the internet). I'm sure the RFX, Flux and Czar are great bikes if they're the kind of bike you're looking for, but there HUGE sections of the market that won't even look at Turner because they don't offer the kind of bike they want. The Trail/Enduro 29er market seems to be exploding, bikes like the SC Hightower are hugely popular but there's no Turner option there. In fact for almost anyone looking for a 29er, other than those who want an XC race bike that can double as a trail bike, Turner isn't even an option.

    I get that going from US-made alloy to Asian-made carbon is a big jump for a small manufacturer to make, and that making sure everything is dialled before committing to a production run is even more important, but it really does seem to me like Turner has dropped the ball when it comes to having continuity in their line-up. It's not that there are less people buying Turners, at least on a sales-per-model basis (I seem to recall someone here saying that the RFX sales have out-numbered both model of Burner by a considerable margin?), I think the decline in overall popularity is more likely because there are less Turners out there for people to buy.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Those figures don't paint a great picture eh.
    When you offer fewer models of course there's going to be less people purchasing that brand overall (and then talking about them on the internet). I'm sure the RFX, Flux and Czar are great bikes if they're the kind of bike you're looking for, but there HUGE sections of the market that won't even look at Turner because they don't offer the kind of bike they want. The Trail/Enduro 29er market seems to be exploding, bikes like the SC Hightower are hugely popular but there's no Turner option there. In fact for almost anyone looking for a 29er, other than those who want an XC race bike that can double as a trail bike, Turner isn't even an option.

    I get that going from US-made alloy to Asian-made carbon is a big jump for a small manufacturer to make, and that making sure everything is dialled before committing to a production run is even more important, but it really does seem to me like Turner has dropped the ball when it comes to having continuity in their line-up. It's not that there are less people buying Turners, at least on a sales-per-model basis (I seem to recall someone here saying that the RFX sales have out-numbered both model of Burner by a considerable margin?), I think the decline in overall popularity is more likely because there are less Turners out there for people to buy.
    Funny, I went back to the RFX after a long travel 29er...turns out I wanted to go faster, my results confirm it.

  23. #123
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    Jaymen, glad your results prove you're faster on the RFX. For me this isn't the case as I'm faster and have more fun on my Wreckoning. Again,DT makes great bikes but not having an option for either a mid or long travel 29er makes Turner mostly irrelevant (to me at least). That said, I would love to consider Turner again, but for now there is nothing in the lineup that is of interest. Finally, Turner of all brands was the last I thought I would see go to PF bottom brackets. Not a deal breaker, just a surprise based on Turner's history regarding quality and ease of use/service.


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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by bond007jms View Post
    If the PB poll is any indication of the market as a whole, it shows exactly what happened to this forum:

    Pinkbike Poll
    Which is the brand of the complete bike will you likely purchase next?

    If Turner bikes are being purchased by fewer and fewer riders, then who keeps the forum alive? Yes, there are other social media outlets that compete with this board, and yes that has decreased interaction, but again, if fewer Turners are being sold, well....
    That is also a very European heavy poll. Honestly, have you every seen an Orange in the USA? Sunn? And who knew that Iron Horse was still around.

    Honestly, I would take that poll with a grain of salt. But with that said, I think Turner has lost ground. People don't know the brand anymore. How is it that Pivot's are everywhere when they basically started 7 years ago but Turner is struggling - and basically making similar bikes? And in many ways, the Turner is even cheaper.
    Last edited by Vespasianus; 1 Week Ago at 09:44 AM.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot View Post
    Finally, Turner of all brands was the last I thought I would see go to PF bottom brackets. Not a deal breaker, just a surprise based on Turner's history regarding quality and ease of use/service.
    Exactly- Turner using PF30 says more about that standard (when done right, and not including the myriad other "standards") than it does about Turner, IMO.

    I was a PF skeptic as much as anyone who had heard the horror stories, but have had zero issues in a combined 3.5 years on Turners with PF30 bb's. I realize you can run a BB30 crankset on a threaded BB these days, but with carbon manufacturing the larger shell (and bearings) of an internal BB just make more sense to me.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  26. #126
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    Veggibiker nailed it earlier, it was the move to DW and the fugly aluminum bikes, sorry guys my opinion. His carbon bikes are very nice tho, real clean lines like his old bikes. Bottom line is the bikes have to look good as well as ride good at the prices they are charging. The homers weren't helping either when they squashed differing opinions about the looks of the aluminum DW bikes, like "I don't see the bike when I'm riding it". Ok whatever.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    That is also a very European heavy poll. Honestly, have you every seen an Orange in the USA? Sunn? And who they knew that Iron Horse was still around.

    Honestly, I would take that poll with a grain of salt. But with that said, I think Turner has lost ground. People don't know the brand anymore. How is it that Pivot's are everywhere when they basically started 7 years ago but Turner is struggling - and basically making similar bikes? And in many ways, the Turner is even cheaper.
    How do you know Turner is struggling? Maybe they are selling as many bikes as they can handle with their staff of 3 or 4. Pivot has 80+. Pivot clearly has different goals than Turner.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    How do you know Turner is struggling? Maybe they are selling as many bikes as they can handle with their staff of 3 or 4. Pivot has 80+. Pivot clearly has different goals than Turner.
    Thats what I'm saying though, I dont think anyone really knows these days. A little video piece about Turner bikes up on Pinkbike might do him some good...its been a while since we really seen/heard anything on Turner bikes especially since he went carbon.

    Turner regularly posts on instagram and Facebook and it looks like from that they are doing just fine and having a good time.

    Regardless the size of a company when things are quiet you gotta wonder. As a Turner bike owner I wish there was more out there from Turner, whether its a "inside look at Turner bikes" video or just more video coverage of his racing teams.

    They got some decent coverage of Sea Otter up on their Facebook page...Jonna Petterson took third at the Sea Otter Enduro on the RFX

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    How do you know Turner is struggling? Maybe they are selling as many bikes as they can handle with their staff of 3 or 4. Pivot has 80+. Pivot clearly has different goals than Turner.
    None of know that Turner is "struggling." But that possibility is implicit in this very thread. "what happened to this forum?" is essentially "what is happening to Turner?"

    We're all noticing that the "density" of Turners in the bike population is apparently down considerably. And we're simultaneously noticing that some former peers of Turner have grown far larger in the meantime.

    Dave's business model has shifted dramatically in the past 2-3 years. When his frames were built in Portland, he could make very small, incremental orders with relatively short leadtimes. I'm guessing that inventory planning was not a challenge. Capital costs to introduce new models were minimal. Engineering/design with straight-tube aluminum is far less complex (and less costly) than composites.

    In the built-overseas and/or carbon world, that all changes. Mold costs, volume commitments to secure manufacturing capacity, outsourcing carbon composite FEA work, and other factors must substantially complicate Dave's world. Per-unit costs may be lower than the past, but the capital costs are dramatically different. With high fixed costs and a very small product portfolio, the consequences of a mis-step are very high. I assume that any new model needs to be pretty successful to generate decent profits.

    Is a sub-10-person company even viable in this sort of industry? Most of us here hope so, but I don't think we really know.

    Certainly there is reason for concern. Turner has an almost non-existent dealer footprint. That obviously didn't hurt the YT numbers in the Pinkbike poll, but YT is operating on a totally different scale, and positioning themselves as a price/value choice. Turner has only 3 models (I'm ignoring the cross bike), and of those 3, only the RFX appears to be "popular" (guess based on anecdotal evidence). I don't know Dave's financials, or his ambitions, but intuitively it seems like a viable business in this industry needs more scale than he currently has.

    So for the sake of Turner, and for my own selfish interest, please give us a killer new Sultan!

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    How do you know Turner is struggling? Maybe they are selling as many bikes as they can handle with their staff of 3 or 4. Pivot has 80+. Pivot clearly has different goals than Turner.

    Never said struggling. Based upon my own experience, I don't think Turner has the same name recognition as it did 5-10 years ago. There sales could actually be the exact same.
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Never said struggling. Based upon my own experience, I don't think Turner has the same name recognition as it did 5-10 years ago. There sales could actually be the exact same.
    Re-read your last post. Maybe it was meant in a different context? Whatever, the point that name recognition isn't big anymore certainly is valid. I used to see way more visitors riding Turners in Sedona. Now it's Ibis and Pivot amongst others. I just hope DT keeps making bikes. Sure love the RFX.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    None of know that Turner is "struggling." But that possibility is implicit in this very thread. "what happened to this forum?" is essentially "what is happening to Turner?"

    We're all noticing that the "density" of Turners in the bike population is apparently down considerably. And we're simultaneously noticing that some former peers of Turner have grown far larger in the meantime.

    Dave's business model has shifted dramatically in the past 2-3 years. When his frames were built in Portland, he could make very small, incremental orders with relatively short leadtimes. I'm guessing that inventory planning was not a challenge. Capital costs to introduce new models were minimal. Engineering/design with straight-tube aluminum is far less complex (and less costly) than composites.

    In the built-overseas and/or carbon world, that all changes. Mold costs, volume commitments to secure manufacturing capacity, outsourcing carbon composite FEA work, and other factors must substantially complicate Dave's world. Per-unit costs may be lower than the past, but the capital costs are dramatically different. With high fixed costs and a very small product portfolio, the consequences of a mis-step are very high. I assume that any new model needs to be pretty successful to generate decent profits.

    Is a sub-10-person company even viable in this sort of industry? Most of us here hope so, but I don't think we really know.

    Certainly there is reason for concern. Turner has an almost non-existent dealer footprint. That obviously didn't hurt the YT numbers in the Pinkbike poll, but YT is operating on a totally different scale, and positioning themselves as a price/value choice. Turner has only 3 models (I'm ignoring the cross bike), and of those 3, only the RFX appears to be "popular" (guess based on anecdotal evidence). I don't know Dave's financials, or his ambitions, but intuitively it seems like a viable business in this industry needs more scale than he currently has.

    So for the sake of Turner, and for my own selfish interest, please give us a killer new Sultan!

  33. #133
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    DW itself is still awesome. Personally, I like carbon Boost 29ers and 27.5+ bikes now. I'm hopeful to see some future Turners like this. Alloy rear triangle works too. If I had a spare million, I'd help Dave with a new model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Re-read your last post. Maybe it was meant in a different context? Whatever, the point that name recognition isn't big anymore certainly is valid. I used to see way more visitors riding Turners in Sedona. Now it's Ibis and Pivot amongst others. I just hope DT keeps making bikes. Sure love the RFX.
    Agree 100%. I love my 5-Spot and am waiting for the new Sultan. Could make a bike out of steel for all I care. Just make sure it has that Turner ride that I have come to love. Great on the ground and great in the air!
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    That is also a very European heavy poll. Honestly, have you every seen an Orange in the USA? Sunn? And who knew that Iron Horse was still around.

    Honestly, I would take that poll with a grain of salt. But with that said, I think Turner has lost ground. People don't know the brand anymore. How is it that Pivot's are everywhere when they basically started 7 years ago but Turner is struggling - and basically making similar bikes? And in many ways, the Turner is even cheaper.
    I don't understand the relevance with the poll including European bikes. If anything the number should be much higher with a larger market.

    Compare just the US brands. Yeti, Santa Cruz and Intense. We can spin it anyway we want however the writing on the wall doesn't look good.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    I don't understand the relevance with the poll including European bikes. If anything the number should be much higher with a larger market.

    Compare just the US brands. Yeti, Santa Cruz and Intense. We can spin it anyway we want however the writing on the wall doesn't look good.
    Yeah, but Turner is always been pretty US focused. There name recognition in the Europe has never been great. It is like doing a poll on MBA and finding that only 4 people were looking to buy a Nicolai.

    But I agree, Turner recognition is not pointing in the right direction and needs to get back in the spotlight.
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    I own a RFX and love it and the brand. Obviously, Turner is famously resistant to just hopping on the latest trend, so they've never been a brand of hype, annual overhauls of lineups that are already good, or some new tech causing us all to have outdated gear - it's part of the appeal. But even so, having followed them for awhile now, it does "feel" like something has slowed down a bit at Turner.

    Whether that's a sign of a business problem, a voluntary purist rebellion against needless and costly upgrades, some combination of both, or something else is anybody's guess.

    However, I would say that brand names can certainly be impacted by voids where people resort to speculation. It seems that most folks here agree that there's somewhat of a void with Turner right now, if for no other reason than just lack of messaging about the future. Anyways, hope it's nothing.

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    So, what about Ellsworth and Ventana? Are they still selling bikes?

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    I think Ellsworth is scraping by and trying to sell whatever models they can come up with. It is no longer the Ellsworth of old. I hardly see them. I think Colorado is a pretty good gauge of what is selling well.

    Ventana is a slightly different story but I don't see any more of his bikes out there either. While Ventana sales have most likely dropped a lot since the 2007/8 timeframe, Sherwood does a lot of other contract manufacturing on metal parts, from what I understand. So he never only relied on bike sales though prob does some custom bike sales now, in addition to the regular stock frames...just not that many. He builds among the stiffest bikes out there...something we don't see much anymore except from a handful of smaller companies. I sometimes wish he had updated his suspension design. I have owned two Ventanas but never an Ellsworth.

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    Hmmm...well, these guys are from the same generation of bike manufacturers. Might be cool to see them collaborate on a project, or two. Between the three of them there is a lot of experience. I bet there is some tweak they can make with a Horst Link. They probably don't have it in them, though. Too old, and too tired.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDude View Post
    Hmmm...well, these guys are from the same generation of bike manufacturers. Might be cool to see them collaborate on a project, or two. Between the three of them there is a lot of experience. I bet there is some tweak they can make with a Horst Link. They probably don't have it in them, though. Too old, and too tired.
    Well, they did. At one time Ventana make the frames for Turner.

    Sherwood keeps plugging along with his same outdated suspension design and doesn't seem to care much. I broke two Ventanas and then having the 3rd stolen and getting a 5-spot was one of the best things that ever happened to me. LOL.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Well, they did. At one time Ventana make the frames for Turner.

    Sherwood keeps plugging along with his same outdated suspension design and doesn't seem to care much. I broke two Ventanas and then having the 3rd stolen and getting a 5-spot was one of the best things that ever happened to me. LOL.
    Filibertos - I really like the country fries, but man you better bring an appetite!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDude View Post
    Hmmm...well, these guys are from the same generation of bike manufacturers. Might be cool to see them collaborate on a project, or two. Between the three of them there is a lot of experience. I bet there is some tweak they can make with a Horst Link. They probably don't have it in them, though. Too old, and too tired.
    You may be on to something. If you look at that list, what are people looking to buy: Commencial, Canyon, YT, Norco, Rocky Mountain, Transition, etc. They are all SP or HL type bikes. With the advent of the single chainring, those suspension designs are all relevant.
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    You may be on to something. If you look at that list, what are people looking to buy: Commencial, Canyon, YT, Norco, Rocky Mountain, Transition, etc. They are all SP or HL type bikes. With the advent of the single chainring, those suspension designs are all relevant.
    Also, consider that the gearbox is somewhere in the near future. Still lots of leg room to play with suspension if you take variable chain tension out of the mix.

    DT on design, Sherwood on prototype/engineering, and Tony heading up the sales and distribution.

    Of course, the rest of the industry can keep arguing about wheel sizes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDude View Post

    DT on design, Sherwood on prototype/engineering, and Tony heading up the sales and distribution. :
    It'd be a cold day in hell before that happens considering the history between turner and Ellsworth. Tony's ICT patent effectively made Turner go to TNT to avoid paying him royalties. Partnering with Ellsworth would ensure Turner's downfall imho!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    You may be on to something. If you look at that list, what are people looking to buy: Commencial, Canyon, YT, Norco, Rocky Mountain, Transition, etc. They are all SP or HL type bikes. With the advent of the single chainring, those suspension designs are all relevant.
    meh, Im not sure that it has anything to do w HL linkage.

    All those companies have a pretty good marketing platform and a presence in the bike industry. Most of those guys have a solid race team and are constantly getting coverage whether it be internet, mags, and videos...that is a huge driving force behind sales.

    Would make no difference if they were DW, VP, HL...most folks buy what they see and what all their fav pros are riding...There are exceptions but this is the case (much)more often then not.

    YT has the hottest team right now, their marketing is great, their bikes look good, ride good, and are direct sales pricing....They did it right, hats off to them.

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    I wonder the ages of people buying Turners. I just get the inclination that 35years and upwards maybe older. At 52 years I started riding a Turner around 10 years ago. There were a few factors reviews, reputation, made in the USA and Turner service in no specific order.
    There were a few of us from the North of England. Mr Pink, Prof etc. What happened? Those who ride Turners are not fashion victims. Just because a bike has a new colour every year does not make it better. But the big manufacturers market their products in such away.
    Why this forum is slowing down is why I moved to Turner from Santa Cruz in the first place. Made in the USA for many is a selling point. What ever Dave tries he can't match the big boys for filling order books with builders in Taiwan or China. Thus whist the price of mainstream bikes are lower Dave can't afford to match them.
    OK I have £6000 burning a hole in my pocket. Even though it's more expensive Alchemy just ticks all the boxes. But I have only £3000 Cannondale, Whyte etc. Turner is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I hope Turner is not just ticking over and their are major developments to be seen soon. Bring back made in the USA.
    Skye

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDude View Post
    Also, consider that the gearbox is somewhere in the near future. Still lots of leg room to play with suspension if you take variable chain tension out of the mix.

    DT on design, Sherwood on prototype/engineering, and Tony heading up the sales and distribution.

    Of course, the rest of the industry can keep arguing about wheel sizes...
    gawd, thats all Turner needs is to team up with two dead brands and make a Turner Ellsworth bike baby that would be the ugliest bike in the industry...instant death, kill me now.

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    Dmar, it will also incorporate i-drive, GT baby. Dont forget the i-drive. That F-ing linkage would get loose on me every other month and it was like i was driving an articulating bus, dragging a bowling ball down the trail on a chain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyerose123 View Post

    1-I wonder the ages of people buying Turners. I just get the inclination that 35years and upwards maybe older...


    2-Those who ride Turners are not fashion victims.

    3-Just because a bike has a new colour every year does not make it better. But the big manufacturers market their products in such away.

    4-Made in the USA for many is a selling point.

    5-What ever Dave tries he can't match the big boys for filling order books with builders in Taiwan or China.

    6-Thus whist the price of mainstream bikes are lower Dave can't afford to match them.

    7-Turner is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    8-I hope Turner is not just ticking over and their are major developments to be seen soon.

    9-Bring back made in the USA.
    1-probably
    2-yes they are
    3-it is. marketing. it works, like it or not.
    4-for a very few
    5-he doesn't need to
    6-he can beat them- direct sales pricing
    7-lame excuse tired of hearing it
    8-me too, would be great to hear from Turner
    9-meh...pricing is more important

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