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Thread: Turner Warranty

  1. #1
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    Turner Warranty

    So I'm trying to talk a friend of mine into buying a Turner but he seems stuck on the 3 year warranty deal. I've told him all about the awesome CS Turner has etc etc. I even called Turner and they said they would cover any Turner no mater how old. (if it was a common break)
    My friends thinking is, if Turners are so great why dont they have a lifetime warranty like the Trek Top Fuel he is about to purchase. What do I tell him to get him change his mind?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Tell him that trek top fuels are gay.

    Because they are.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  3. #3
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    tell your friend to read this thread if he's still on the fence.....it's a bonehead of a tale, with a happy ending....
    Glow in the Dark Spot!

    and, I can absolutely guarantee you that Trek would not have covered their frame in this instance....guaranteed.

    this is why turner rocks, to 11!
    Last edited by jokermtb; 11-15-2006 at 08:40 PM.

  4. #4
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    Show him a picture of this. Don't forget to mention the frames are made from recycled beer cans (they just refinish them)
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    I would have your friend speak to a dealer and define "lifetime". I think he will find out that it is marketing jargon. "Lifetime" usually is meant to assume the life of the frame. Most manufacturers specify this date to be somewhere between 3-5 years. What does he expect to happen in 5 years when his bike breaks? Do you really think Trek is gonna have some 2007 parts laying around? In a market where manufacturers are constantly changing designs to outpace the competition, it is very unlikely that the Fuel design will even be around. The best he could hope for is a crash replacement frame which will cost him a bunch of change.


    Buy the bike because it meets his needs, fit properly, and has the features he needs. Not because of the warranty.
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  6. #6
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    Let him get the Trek. Buying twice makes the Turner that much sweeter.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  7. #7
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    So is the life time warranty Trek offers really just a gimick?? I use to ride a Y bike back in the day and they replaced that pos 5 times....but then I had an old Fisher that they wouldnt replace and only offered me $240.00 store credit at a Trek store.

    I've never seen customer service from anyone like Turner so I'll be a loyal follower for a long time.... I just need some ammo to turn change my friends mind.

  8. #8
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    Buy the bike because it meets his needs, fit properly, and has the features he needs. Not because of the warranty.[/QUOTE]


    Thats exactly what I've been telling him !

    Thanks

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velo_1
    So is the life time warranty Trek offers really just a gimick?? I use to ride a Y bike back in the day and they replaced that pos 5 times....but then I had an old Fisher that they wouldnt replace and only offered me $240.00 store credit at a Trek store.

    I've never seen customer service from anyone like Turner so I'll be a loyal follower for a long time.... I just need some ammo to turn change my friends mind.
    If your friend wants to buy a Trek because of a play on words, then he clearly is not ready for a Turner. Besides, you'll feel better knowing your bike is better than his
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  10. #10
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    treks warranty guys are pretty damn good for a production company, thats the truth. but in reality, ti is right. they will pro rate him on failures after a certain period of time. i think 5 years is about right, give or take.

    now...... turner will replace a frame no questions asked for roughly the same amount of time, THEN offer him a crash replacement of $600 credit on top of a trade in credit of the same. top it off with a obviously superior ride quality, build quality and support structure, he has himself a clear winner. where else will he get a replacement part with a phone call and 2 days shipping?

    yes, ive been a trek dealer on and off for 11 years. theyre excellent, just not superior.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  11. #11
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    tell your friend to read this

    Tell your friend to read this thread even outside USA

    Outstanding Service

  12. #12
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    The Turner crew is very easy to deal with and beyond fair.

    If they hook you up, send them something sweet as a thank you.

  13. #13
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    Go the David!

    Trek makes great bikes, they have a great warranty. And yet, as good as their CS is, they simply don't hold a candle to Turner's CS.

    Do some searching and you'll find a multitude of threads where people were blown away on how fast and accomidating Turnerbikes, and Greg who busts his arse handling CS, is. I've seen several threads about how they've bailed ppl out who were on a bike trip or got the frames to them in time to leave for that trip. Also check out how they helped their overseas customers. (talk about the extra mile!)

    When I had a problem with a frame, I sent them info before hitting the sack and the next morning, their first question was not "What happened"... "It was What color do your want?" and they shipped a replacement that afternoon. Not everything is going to be that simple but you can bet they'll do their very best regardless.

    Turner's also honors warranties on used frames. Not many companies do that. They really go the extra mile on stuff. Sombody asked on the forum what happens if the bike breaks out of warranty? Their response was "We'll take care of you". Being a NY'er (with what SCinPC would call a East Coast attitude ) My first reaction was to think that don't mean diddly. If you look at how they went above and beyond for person after person, (many posts about that here) you can see this kind of treatment is the NORM not the exception for them.

    I asked DT about it once and he said, exemplary CS is important to him because this kind of treatment goes a long way to set Turnerbikes apart from the rest of the industry. I couldn't agree more.

    And all that is icing on the cake b/c the bikes are flat out excellent!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  14. #14
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    If you want to simplify the process even further, you call Turner, wait for a reply, then optionally post about your experience here later. This is one company that really does answer emails and wants to talk to you.

    DT was on vacation answering my silly emails, as well as the business ones last summer. Amazing. He was working through his family holiday so Greg and Jarret didn't have a shitstorm in the office coming back. "Putting out the fires" as he called it.

    Just make the process go smoothly by connecting with the office before going mtbr.

  15. #15
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    Having a lifetime warranty will eventually lead to abuse. Turner CS is THE best and something one should never worries about.

  16. #16
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    Knowing how great Turner customer service is, I'd buy another one even if it came with NO warranty . . . . .

    Your friend needs to get off his fixation with warranty, which is only one of several considerations. Teh question is not "which company has the better warranty" but "which is the better bike?"

    When he asks that question the answer is obvious.

  17. #17
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    or put even more simply, what bike offers the better overall ownership experience?

    ya nailed that one rd. its incedibly obvious. but to some its still a desicion, sometimes a tough one.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velo_1
    So I'm trying to talk a friend of mine into buying a Turner but he seems stuck on the 3 year warranty deal. I've told him all about the awesome CS Turner has etc etc. I even called Turner and they said they would cover any Turner no mater how old. (if it was a common break)
    My friends thinking is, if Turners are so great why dont they have a lifetime warranty like the Trek Top Fuel he is about to purchase. What do I tell him to get him change his mind?

    Thanks
    I did NOT have a good experience with Trek and their lifetime warranty. Longstory short, I was without my road bike for 12 weeks while they mishandled the warranty and gave me the runaround. I was not told the truth, not made to feel as though my business mattered and came away unhappy with their product. Unhappy enough to commit to never buy a Trek or Trek owned product again. Ever.

    Turner CS is legendary.

  19. #19
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    devils advocate time. was it a trek issue or a lbs issue? one can look to be the other dependin on how its handled and this does go both ways. trust me.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  20. #20
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    From what I've seen with Trek's warranty service, I think they take care of you. However, the sense of urgency on getting you back on their bikes is not quite the same as Turner. I think DT and the crew truly empathize with us as riders when our bikes are out of commission.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    devils advocate time. was it a trek issue or a lbs issue? one can look to be the other dependin on how its handled and this does go both ways. trust me.
    LBS (#1 Trek dealer in the country according to them) did the pass through to Trek. Trek denied the initial warranty. LBS put their hands up. I pursued it further with Trek, was made an unacceptable offer. Pursued it further, was made an acceptable offer, and went back to the LBS with documentation to get it going. 12 weeks later I get my frame back. Many issues in between, but ultimately, it seems that I was the only one tracking and managing the process. I dealt with warranties when I worked in a shop ages ago, and we, as the LBS, knew the status of the warranty, and kept the client updated. That's what I expected. That and to have the LBS act as an advocate for me with the issue. I guess spending $3k for a road bike didn't qualify me as a valuable customer.

    I choose to take my business to a shop that appreciates their clientele and wants to see them satisfied. FWIW the bike shop said that they thought it should be a warranty, but with Trek's initial response bowed out.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    ya nailed that one rd. its incedibly obvious. but to some its still a desicion, sometimes a tough one.
    You are so right. Before I bought my Flux I remember looking at Titus, Intense, SC, Trek, Specy, Niner, and a few others. Drove myself nuts. While a few had minor advantages over Turner, none beat Turner in overall quality and rideability. (And let's not forget cultability)

  23. #23
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    Zilla said: I've seen several threads about how they've bailed ppl out who were on a bike trip or got the frames to them in time to leave for that trip.

    That Was Me (and many others, no doubt)

    Once in the middle of a trip to Moab. Riding time lost = half day at most.

    Once just before departure to the Land of Team Sanchez. Frame arrival in one day, built that night, left the next morning.

    Most of the big companies are really decent on warranties, but there is always lost riding time, sometimes a lot of it!
    Whining is not a strategy.

  24. #24
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    wow. bad days like that do no one any good. glad ya had the know to push it in the correct direction since the lbs lost its balls. had the same happen to me and im inclined to make a few more calls to satisfy my custy and theirs. this is exacly why its worth my time. but then again im a obstinent old prick.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  25. #25
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    ok, I am the friend that Velo's trying to talk into buying a Turner. I have several points here:

    1. Has anyone out there rode the '07 TopFuel ? Rumor has it at 23lbs and silky smooth ride. I have not, but that is 2 lbs under the Flux which is a big deal for racing.

    2. The LBS that I'm planning on purchasing from is the bomb, they give me serious discounts, free labor, and fantastic customer support, they do not however deal Turner. There would have to be a big difference between the '07 top fuel and Turner flux to swing me away from my LBS.

    3. I have broken 3 Frames and Trek/GaryFisher has had a 1 - 3 week turnaround. No problems at all with them, other then downtime which isn't a big deal b/c I had a back up bike hanging in the garage.

    4. I WILL break the frame, it's not IF it's WHEN. If it's 4 yrs down the road I want somthing in writing saying that I'll have it replaced. It seems odd to me that Turner, Titus and Intense all SAY: "ah, don't worry about it we'll take care of you outside of warrantee" and by reading numerous threads here It would appear that they are in fact backing their product this way, if this is the case why not just put it in writting ?? A little side story here: Titus dealer told me not to worry I won't be able to break a Titus RacerX... HA ! I'm no materials engineer, but my understanding is : If it's Light, Aluminum and being ridden hard, it WILL break eventually.

    I will concede that I have brought the Flux back onto my: " possible next bike" list. Mainly because the first I heard of the 600$ credit thing was last night. I Know Velo got hosed with Trek's $240 credit, If I'm hearing right even if it's 10 years old when the Turner cracks it's worth $600 ?? If so then we're back to the real comparison points: Ride, Price, Weight... Could somone explain in depth how that credit works ? Did I mention Top Fuel's were supposedly weiging in at 23lbs fully built ?

  26. #26
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    Please buy the Trek.

  27. #27
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    I give him or you credit for at least looking at Turner. Heck, how many times have you heard of your friends, or your friends friend buying TREK, or a Specialized because they simply went into a bike shop, and low behold they were pushing those two brands... Buying a mnt bike can be daunting for the not so informed. Im definitely not saying Turner is the only way to go, but GEEEZZZ there are alternatives to these two mfgs.... At least he seems to be getting some data-points from you..

    One of two things usually happens.

    1) They get stoked on mountain biking, and in a year are buying a better bike.

    2) The Trek sits in the garage and is forgotten.

    This is similar first timer’s buyers. They seem to be centered around buying a bike that cost around $1k. For a new bike, this price is entry level for a decent complete bike. But, if they get into biking, they are usually end up buying a new one within a year. Alternatively it sits in the garage, and you can pick it up used for $350.

    I think mfgs know about this price-point sweet spot.

    TScheesy said it correct!!

  28. #28
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    hiya dave-

    23lbs? with pedals? and a seat? tires and everything? sounds like a e-weight to me but gawd knows ive been wrong before.

    its hard for me to ask anyone to step away from a shyt hot lbs and i wont start now. i will suggest ya ride a flux and make up yer own mind if its worth it or not. ill be excited to hear yer thoughts afterwards and ill be suprised if i dont find ya in here with a full glass of the koolaid soon after that.

    man, im skeered not to say theres been broken fluxs and you sound like a ham fist (no offence, just a handy term) with a light frame. possibly all the more reason to go with a stronger frame. maybe even build a super lite spot and eat the 1/2lb for the dramatically increased security. fact is, the turner pivots and assorted bits WILL outlast a trek product and thats not a slam on them.

    in writing? youll have to take that up with turner. i honestly dont know of a case where a reasonable breakage was turned down and theres plenty of obviously unreasonable warranty turners out there, right guys? no names but some initials are aqua and el c for starters. just funnin boys!

    yep. 6 bills, all day, every day till arizona freezes over. doesnt even need to be cracked, just has to be a turner. period. used or 2nd hand or found dead in a ditch. 6 big ones baby! heres how it works.....
    1) pick up phone.
    2) call turner.
    3) say, " hi david. i wanna new frame and ill send ya my old one, k?"
    4) hang up phone.
    5) go get lunch.
    6) come home, re build bike with new frame. ok, get lunch 2 to 7 times.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  29. #29
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    Thanks for joining in on the conversation. If a Top Fuel really weighs in at 23 lbs. and has the same or better ride quality than the Flux, I say go for it. If your wanting a true X-C racing machine, why not a Nitrous? That can be built to 23 lbs. with X-C racing bits. It's not something that I would want to take on my local trail rides with my buddies, but that is a personal preference. You have a lot of good reasons to look at the Trek, but a Turner is certainly worth a look. Best of luck in getting the right bike for you.

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    I expected more Flaming, how refreshing a semi intelligent conv.

    23lbs ?? Yes, full bike, test ride at one of the trade get togethers as per trusted bike mechanic at aforementioned LBS. That said, GaryFisher came around with their new RaceDay ProCaliber that weighed 21.<somthing or other>, but when they put one of the production models together in the shop it was 26lbs ! SOOO I won't count my gram's until they are built.

    I'm not the typical "Serial Frame Cracker" I weigh between 165-170. I think my frame breakage is more of a riding style where I tend to go the shortest distance between two points instead of trying to pick my way around everything.... That and I quit using my brakes in the late ninety's

    Is the Nitrous is the one w/ the weight limit that I'm right on the cusp of ? Again what happens if a 170lbs person cracks a frame explicitely built for a person less then 165 (or whatever the limit is) ? I can hear the interogation now... " do you weigh yourself with full bike gear ?" "+ camelback ? " "were there water bottles in the cages when it cracked " ? "when's the last time you calibrated your scale?"

    And finally, I did read Turner's $600 credit policy, Simply said: That rocks. I'm amazed. I would guess that keeps the price of used Turner's pretty high

  31. #31
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    23lbs... sorry dave but ill believe that when i see it. even w/ full xtr/xo/ti this n that and a sid youll be hard pressed to find a fully built prodution f/s rig at that weight. not that it cant happen but id call it a race day only bike if it did.

    i hear brakes only slow ya down. thank gawd im already slow and dont need to concirn myself with such things.

    yep. buck sitty five, end of story. not a damn the torpedos, screw the rocks, a to b bike anyway, needs a good handfull of finess. walk away.

    high resale? i wish! hear me now and pay me later, thats not happnin with all these friggin closeouts im burried in as one with a turner on the block. what ya can be guarentied is the value wont ever fall below $600. if that helps.

    peace, love and oj's bloody glove.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  32. #32
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    Turner CS is THE BEST IN THE WORLD!

    I had a Turner Rail prototype frame, and when I had troueble with the pivot they made me stronger replacement parts for it for free! and shipped them ASAP

    Friend of mine broke the seatstays on his Turner a few years ago, they shipped him a new one without sending the old one back, and he got it within a week.

    Note that we are in The Netherlands, Europe.

    Even if Turner bikes wouldn't ride as good as they do, it is worth buying fod the CS alone!

    Oh yeah, and it is a TURNER!

  33. #33
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    dah-ooood!

    if yer not convinced yet to at least ride one, yer.....

    hi!
    No, I'm NOT back!

  34. #34
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    you'd be amazed of how many people thing a mountain bike is actually "a Trek"


    I bought "a Trek", and I rode it around the sidewalk a few times, then stopped........cool, maybe we can ride our "treks" sometime.....

    said to a specialize hardrock owner at a race...."cool trek!"

  35. #35
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    DaveMTB, thanks for posting--Given your circumstances/intended use, warranty is a huge consideration, and I don't blame you for wanting the best warranty possible.

    As an aside, I guess the question all of this raises for me is, what is considered normal use of a MTB that would be covered under warranty, and what falls clearly outside the boundaries? Do Trek and other MFG's cover damage incurred while racing? I'm not a racer, so I have no clue. (Not a comment on those who race, BTW)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    23lbs... sorry dave but ill believe that when i see it. even w/ full xtr/xo/ti this n that and a sid youll be hard pressed to find a fully built prodution f/s rig at that weight. not that it cant happen but id call it a race day only bike if it did.


    peace, love and oj's bloody glove.
    yeah, Cactus I'm sceptical too, doubly so after the GF ProCaliber debut, but IF Trek has pulled it off, it's going to be a tough chioce.

    "OJ's bloody glove" => http://www.fox.com/oj/

    Leave it to Fox to take TV to a new low.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    wow. bad days like that do no one any good. glad ya had the know to push it in the correct direction since the lbs lost its balls. had the same happen to me and im inclined to make a few more calls to satisfy my custy and theirs. this is exacly why its worth my time. but then again im a obstinent old prick.
    ditto.

    In my line of work, we will do nearly anything to ensure a client is satisfied. Consequently we are able to negotiate most of our work (in lieu of bidding against the competion) because people know we will ensure they get what they paid for and usually a little more.

    Sounds a little like Turner bikes

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    yep. we talked about that at the news staff meeting yesteday and i decided to include it in my show later that night. whos more of a slime ball? fox or oj? tough call.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velo_1
    So is the life time warranty Trek offers really just a gimick?? I use to ride a Y bike back in the day and they replaced that pos 5 times....but then I had an old Fisher that they wouldnt replace and only offered me $240.00 store credit at a Trek store.

    I've never seen customer service from anyone like Turner so I'll be a loyal follower for a long time.... I just need some ammo to turn change my friends mind.
    While most of the poeple at this site really know their sh!t, I'm amazed at the garbage that is produced by some. Woo is gay, btw (so he meant his comments as a compliment)..... not that there's anything wrong with that.

    I own a 2003 Turner 5 Spot. It's the best bike that I've ever owned.

    I also own a 2006 Trek Top Fuel 110.... which is a replacement for my 2001 Fuel 98 that got a crack on the seat tube after 5 years of use. They replaced my Fuel 98 aluminum frame (which cost $2000 for the complete bike) with a $2000 full carbon frame. No questions asked.

    The Trek warranty is one of the best in the business. I've had 2 issues with the Fuel and was taken care of without any questions... both times...by Trek. If they don't have the replacement for you....they upgrade you to the current model.

    Having said that. My next bike will be a Turner. I like the bikes better. The warranty is not lifetime, but the Turner service is second to none as you have read. If you break a bike after the warranty... you can get a $600 credit towards a new frame.

    Did I mention the Turner bikes ride better?

    Trek really is a great bike company and they do honor their warranties.... They just can't hold a candle to Turner....... period.

  40. #40
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    I've had excellent experiences w/ Trek warrantee

    Quote Originally Posted by jokermtb
    tell your friend to read this thread if he's still on the fence.....it's a bonehead of a tale, with a happy ending....
    Glow in the Dark Spot!

    and, I can absolutely guarantee you that Trek would not have covered their frame in this instance....guaranteed.

    this is why turner rocks, to 11!
    I broke a Fuel twice, and the second time I asked them to replace the rear triangle as well because it was so beat up and they did. Can't ask for more than that!

    I also knew a guy that got a brand new carbon Fuel when his old carbon Y bike broke. Personally I think Trek has an excellent warrantee.

    Dave

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Tell him that trek top fuels are gay.

    Because they are.
    hmmmmm....maybe that should be my next bike. What colors do they come in?

  42. #42
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    Well, turners cs is so good, they even fixed my trek.
    That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death
    by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it,"
    --A Democratic congressional candidate in Texas.

  43. #43
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    1 more 1 liner. Friends dont let freinnds drive (ride) treks
    That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death
    by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it,"
    --A Democratic congressional candidate in Texas.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker
    2. The LBS that I'm planning on purchasing from is the bomb, they give me serious discounts, free labor, and fantastic customer support, they do not however deal Turner. There would have to be a big difference between the '07 top fuel and Turner flux to swing me away from my LBS.
    Just wanted to note here, that unless I've heard incorrectly (and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong ), that the buy-in to be a Turner dealer is one frame. So if your LBS is interested, they could sell you a frame and then be a Turner dealer, with no up-front layout on their part.

    Industry guys, am I accurate in saying this?

    I've heard that the "showroom requirements" to be a Trek dealer are pretty outrageous, so I can understand a shop not wanting to take on a high-end boutique frame manufacturer if they already have to stock a huge amount of Trek/GF/Klein merchandise. But if the shop's buy-in is covered by a sale (yours) that could work out for both of you. Just some food for thought, I hope that information is helpful (and accurate).

    Patrick

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    Normal Use as it pertains to Warranty

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Drivel
    DaveMTB, thanks for posting--Given your circumstances/intended use, warranty is a huge consideration, and I don't blame you for wanting the best warranty possible.

    As an aside, I guess the question all of this raises for me is, what is considered normal use of a MTB that would be covered under warranty, and what falls clearly outside the boundaries? Do Trek and other MFG's cover damage incurred while racing? I'm not a racer, so I have no clue. (Not a comment on those who race, BTW)
    Interesting question Random.
    If it happens durring an XC race then absolutely without a doubt no more questions asked it's a warranty issue (unless you happened to get smacked by a car in the woods ?). Any bike that I am shopping for is labled as XC not: "all mountain" or "DH" or "FR", this is a racer, so it had better be built to take the rigors of an XC race and then some.

    In my mind; If I am riding the bike w/out body armor (which I don't own), then what ever I subject my body to on a regular basis the bike should be able to endure, less getting hit by another moving object,(car).

    Turner, Fisher, Ritchey, Breeze. These guys invented the sport of Mt. Biking and tested their bikes by raceing them down a Mountain side in CA (re-pack races). This was not a physical endurance race as much as it was a mechanical endurance race... My point is that Mt Biking is as much about a bike that can handle all terrain as it is anything else. I can hear my own words being turned against me as I type, because I'm concerned with weight of a bike. TheClunkers of our forefathers were 40+ lbs, & I want sub 25lbs, but hey that was 30 years ago. I'm sure "we have the technology" .

    Sorry if this seems like a rant on you Random, it's not, but this IS all terrain cycling. The bike should be able to take said: "terrain" at what ever speed I can muster... That said, if you must wear "full plate armor" to ride, then all bets are off. That upsets the delicate balance between 'Preserve thy self ' and bicycle durability.

  46. #46
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    Oh I don't know about that. A person can put a pretty severe hurtin' on a bike if they are reckless and ride w/o regard to the rigors of mtbing.

    If a person were to charge full-on through a level rock garden, not put the slightest thought into picking a line pedal as hard as they could maintain, they could put a helatious pounding on the frame especially if the shock bottoms under the worst conditions. (and you want it to bottom at the extremes so you can get full travel for the majority of riding)

    You don't need to be a DHer or even an AM rider to abuse a frame if you just plow into everything w/o regard. This is why a skilled finess rider can take a pure XC frame places where an average rider would destroy an AM bike.

    You can't put finess into a warranty stipulation... and the mfgr would be hard pressed to validate it. Nevertheless, some responsibility is on the biker not to ride like Stevie Wonder.

    If you're concerned about weight AND durability AND warranty you may want to consider that old expression "Light, Durable, Cheap ... Pick TWO" Even at these prices there are still limits of physics and materials.

    Also MTBing terrain today is a helluva lot more aggessive than years ago, AND the bikes are lighter. XC today is trailriding years ago, Trail riding today is what Freeriding was years ago. etc.

    I'm not saying you can't have a light durable bike but there are limitations of use.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  47. #47
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    ...nm... fat fingered the ctrl key
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  48. #48
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    words right outta my mouth bruthah man! the more i read, the more im worried. i mean damn dave, even monster trucks break when drivers do stupid things. can i say monster truck in here or will i be chanstized for that too?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  49. #49
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    I don't know, if your friend is set on a trek, let him Trek it out....A buddy of mine had a GF Cake, it didn't really fit him and he hated it - he took it back to the LBS and was lamenting his state of affairs for the bike shop selling him a too small bike [he's kinda a noob]. Lucky for him, the regional Trek guy was visiting and said he'd take the Cake and substitute it for a new Trek Fuel EX. It took about a month, but my buddy got a bike he really likes since it fits him and it rides pretty nice too.....lucky, maybe, but he was pretty stoked that the rep took him under his wing when the LBS fumbled....

    Follow up - he broke the new frame a few months later at a 12 hr endurance race [I couldn't help myself when I was with him at the Trek dealer and said "well, guess you shouldn't have been huckin' off those loading docks yesterday" - he got pretty mad at me until I diffused the situation and stated clearly and concisely that I was just joking, really - just joking people!!!].....but, they did get him a new replacement frame in 1.5 months later! I think it took so long because it was summertime and it was hot outside.....it get's hot in China in the summer - give them some slack!

  50. #50
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    Yep, 1 frame

    Quote Originally Posted by PCinSC
    Just wanted to note here, that unless I've heard incorrectly (and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong ), that the buy-in to be a Turner dealer is one frame. So if your LBS is interested, they could sell you a frame and then be a Turner dealer, with no up-front layout on their part.

    Industry guys, am I accurate in saying this?

    I've heard that the "showroom requirements" to be a Trek dealer are pretty outrageous, so I can understand a shop not wanting to take on a high-end boutique frame manufacturer if they already have to stock a huge amount of Trek/GF/Klein merchandise. But if the shop's buy-in is covered by a sale (yours) that could work out for both of you. Just some food for thought, I hope that information is helpful (and accurate).

    Patrick
    I bought the first Turner (my RFX) at my LBS almost exactly a year ago...I was there when they had to fax their phone book ad, and biz license to Turner to be a dealer.

    As far as warranty goes--think about the peripherals: ie, the shock. My RFX came w/ a stinker DHX-air. Sucked down (sp intentional). After a visit or 2 to fox and a few more stuck downs on the first shock, Turner sent me brand new DHX-air, no charge. Just send the old one back when you get the new one--thats trust!
    The new DHX-air started sticking down about 2 months ago, and Turner sells me a DHX-coil at their cost.

    Thats my experience.

    John
    Beer has food value. Food has no beer value.

  51. #51
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    dave.mountainbiker, some friendly advice. when comparing bike weights, focus on FRAME weight not total weight if you want a meaningful comparison. there is no reason you couldn't put components similar to the Trek's on a Nitrous frame, et voila, you'd have an XC bike within ounces of the Trek. With all the pros/cons of that Trek bike build. Any frame on the market with travel similar to the Nitrous, and performance (e..g lateral stability) similar to the Nitrous, will be similar in weight---or heavier--than the Nitrous.

    Or, if weight really matters to you, become a mtbr geek, do some research, and decide what blend of weight/price/durability/performance works for you. Example: Stan's aluminum rotors save significant weight, but require special pads. Example: Stan's rims will save a lot of weight compared to the typical rim/tire, but the durability on ragged terrain will be similar to the wheels on that ultralight Trek...i.e. not great.

    The mainstream brands like Trek and Specialized have an interesting pricing approach. At the mid-range, the mainstream brands often enable you to buy a complete bike (XT, etc) for much less than you'd pay for a similar build kit + hi-end boutique frame. Granted. But highest-end bikes from brands like specialized tend to be priced VERY high...like 5 grand. In those cases, if you deal with a good shop that deals in high-end build kits, you can find that a boutique frame + truly custom build kit = similar price to the mainstream version.

    The exception to this rule is when you pull a vulture move, and buy a high-end mainstream bike with full XTR blah blah blah that has been gathering dust and is about to be replaced by next year's model.

    but that doesn't sound like your situation.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker
    ok, I am the friend that Velo's trying to talk into buying a Turner. I have several points here:

    1. Has anyone out there rode the '07 TopFuel ? Rumor has it at 23lbs and silky smooth ride. I have not, but that is 2 lbs under the Flux which is a big deal for racing.
    The frame is not 2 lbs. lighter than the Flux, and Turner does not sell complete bikes, so this comparison is kind of pointless. Two pounds is a lot of course, especially for racing, but I doubt the frames themselves are more than a half pound apart, if that. The '05 Top Fuel frame is the same as my '05 Flux. FWIW I built my Flux to 24 lbs. for racing with mostly XT components, so 23 would be within reach with the new XTR. I dare say you could do it for less than the $7,479.99 MSRP of the Top Fuel SL too.

    2. The LBS that I'm planning on purchasing from is the bomb, they give me serious discounts, free labor, and fantastic customer support, they do not however deal Turner. There would have to be a big difference between the '07 top fuel and Turner flux to swing me away from my LBS.
    I'm sure they'd rather have you on a Trek since that's their bread and butter, but if you really pressed the issue I imagine they could find a way to get you a Turner. If for some reason that is impossible, then yes, this would be a good reason to stick with Trek.

    3. I have broken 3 Frames and Trek/GaryFisher has had a 1 - 3 week turnaround. No problems at all with them, other then downtime which isn't a big deal b/c I had a back up bike hanging in the garage.
    Sounds like you've had good experience with Trek, but as others have mentioned Turner is second to none with warranty and customer service issues. Being able to deal with them directly is a plus in my book since they are so responsive.

    4. I WILL break the frame, it's not IF it's WHEN. If it's 4 yrs down the road I want somthing in writing saying that I'll have it replaced. It seems odd to me that Turner, Titus and Intense all SAY: "ah, don't worry about it we'll take care of you outside of warrantee" and by reading numerous threads here It would appear that they are in fact backing their product this way, if this is the case why not just put it in writting ?? A little side story here: Titus dealer told me not to worry I won't be able to break a Titus RacerX... HA ! I'm no materials engineer, but my understanding is : If it's Light, Aluminum and being ridden hard, it WILL break eventually.
    Yep, all frames can break and will do so if pushed hard enough, long enough. Bigger companies are typically better able to eat the cost of replacement frames down the road, but don't forget that the warranty is against manufacturer's defects. You must see the irony in talking about a "disposable" frame while expecting it to be warrantied for a defect four years or more down the road. If Trek (or any other company) didn't feel like giving you a new frame it would be pretty easy to make the case that a true defect would have surfaced well before then.

    I will concede that I have brought the Flux back onto my: " possible next bike" list. Mainly because the first I heard of the 600$ credit thing was last night. I Know Velo got hosed with Trek's $240 credit, If I'm hearing right even if it's 10 years old when the Turner cracks it's worth $600 ?? If so then we're back to the real comparison points: Ride, Price, Weight... Could somone explain in depth how that credit works ? Did I mention Top Fuel's were supposedly weiging in at 23lbs fully built ?
    I think you're on the right track now. Neither bike will ride poorly, but if you can test ride both and determine which one you prefer on the trail that should be infinitely more important than how a frame breakage issue may or may not be handled in 2011 and beyond.

    One last thing to consider is the carbon frame of the Trek vs. the aluminum frame of the Turner. As I'm sure you know, carbon is much more vulnerable to structural damage resulting from small dents, dings, and chips. Those things are part of mountain biking as far as I'm concerned, and to some degree are unavoidable no matter how careful you are. A chip from a rock that got thrown up by your tire is not a manufacturer's defect, so you could easily be SOL when it turns into a frame-ruining crack.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  53. #53
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    I think a Trek would suit this customer better.

  54. #54
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    Check the fine print....

    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker

    Interesting question Random.
    If it happens durring an XC race then absolutely without a doubt no more questions asked it's a warranty issue (unless you happened to get smacked by a car in the woods ?). Any bike that I am shopping for is labled as XC not: "all mountain" or "DH" or "FR", this is a racer, so it had better be built to take the rigors of an XC race and then some.
    Not talking in particular about Trek, but some manufacturers actually consider racing (any kind) outside the normal use when you read the fine print... they might not hold it up in real life, but it's there...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    Not talking in particular about Trek, but some manufacturers actually consider racing (any kind) outside the normal use when you read the fine print...
    Even if they do consider racing normal use, it still wouldn't be covered as the warranty does not cover normal wear and tear. If a customer were to go to them with a DT/BB crack after racing for three seasons, I doubt that they would cover it, as they may consider it to be normal wear and tear, and not a manufacturer defect given the actual use. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and it may be good to get this clarified by Trek.

    I didn't see anything about Trek's crash replacement (other than for the carbon frames) in their warranty.

    From my personal experience and from other accounts I've read here, Turner practically has a "no questions asked" warranty. They take the position of: do the right thing for the customer, everytime. It doesn't seem that any of their decisions about what should be warrantied are governed by financial considerations. And I'm sure this hits their pocketbook at times, but they likely make it up many-fold with the great reputation they have for quality frames and customer service, and the sales that generates.

  56. #56
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    I perhaps wouldn't go that far that it's no questions asked, but it's beyond fair. Turner is so easy to deal with. Call, they offer the options, they listen to you, and you could be done in under ten minutes.

    I recommend Trek for this customer because I feel bad for DT if he has to pick up a customer that is relying too much on an inevitable warranty as part of his riding style and part of the deal to buy. The customer is expecting to break his equipment, for whatever reason (intent to upgrade or otherwise). If that's the case and he wants a lifetime free upgrade, I say Trek is his bet.

  57. #57
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    I discovered MTBR, because a friend of mine had a 2002 cracked Ellsworth Truth, and he was trying to get it replaced. The CS experience was horrific. I was having issues with my Ellsworth as well, and their CS. He told me to check out Ellsworth message board on MTBR.

    The reason I am mentioning this is that Ellsworth at the time had a Full lifetime warranty, but there were a few individuals breaking the Truth's by hucking them off of drops to flats, and then sending them in (according to TE @ Ellsworth) for free replacements..

    So, I was wondering if a lot of the Boutique bike MFG's are saying that “We will take care of you” to the customers that are reasonable, but by placing a limited warranty on their frames, they legally give themselves an out if they think the customer is taking advantage of them.

    I think this is reasonable…

    Opinion….

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I perhaps wouldn't go that far that it's no questions asked, but it's beyond fair.
    "No questions asked" may be taking it too far, but that's sure what it seemed like when I had an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I recommend Trek for this customer because I feel bad for DT if he has to pick up a customer that is relying too much on an inevitable warranty as part of his riding style and part of the deal to buy. The customer is expecting to break his equipment, for whatever reason (intent to upgrade or otherwise). If that's the case and he wants a lifetime free upgrade, I say Trek is his bet.
    I don't necessarily disagree with you here. If the other factors (supposed lighter weight, LBS support, etc.) make a big difference to the OP, then he should go with a Trek.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker

    1. Has anyone out there rode the '07 TopFuel ? Rumor has it at 23lbs and silky smooth ride. I have not, but that is 2 lbs under the Flux which is a big deal for racing.
    Don't compare bike weights. Compare frame weights. I got news for you. The frames are almost the same exact weight. If you build both bikes using the same components... They will weigh the same.

    Did you notice how you had to say "rumor"? There's a reason that Trek does not post the frame (or bike) weights. Think about it. Also... "Silky Smooth ride" is almost laughable. Fuels are a great race bike, but silky smooth has never been a Fuel trait. The Flux will ride smoother. I own a full carbon Top Fuel 110 and it's a good bike, but not smooth in comparison to a Flux. The new carbon FUels have 10mm more travel than mine and have an aluminum rear. The Flux has 10mm more travel than the Fuel and a far more active suspension.


    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker
    2. The LBS that I'm planning on purchasing from is the bomb, they give me serious discounts, free labor, and fantastic customer support, they do not however deal Turner. There would have to be a big difference between the '07 top fuel and Turner flux to swing me away from my LBS..
    I can't help you here. It's wonderful to have a great, supportive LBS. If the LBS is more important than the bike, then we should not be talking bike differences.


    [quote=dave.mountainbiker]3. I have broken 3 Frames and Trek/GaryFisher has had a 1 - 3 week turnaround. No problems at all with them, other then downtime which isn't a big deal b/c I had a back up bike hanging in the garage. [quote]

    Read what you wrote. If your weight and/or riding style cause you to break bikes often, you're likely on the wrong bikes

    [quote=dave.mountainbiker]4. I WILL break the frame, it's not IF it's WHEN. If it's 4 yrs down the road I want somthing in writing saying that I'll have it replaced. It seems odd to me that Turner, Titus and Intense all SAY: "ah, don't worry about it we'll take care of you outside of warrantee" and by reading numerous threads here It would appear that they are in fact backing their product this way, if this is the case why not just put it in writting ?? A little side story here: Titus dealer told me not to worry I won't be able to break a Titus RacerX... HA ! I'm no materials engineer, but my understanding is : If it's Light, Aluminum and being ridden hard, it WILL break eventually. [quote]

    Yep. Aluminum will eventually break. The carbon Fuels have aluminum swingarms.. If the aluminim bike is properly designed and built... it can last many years. If the carbon bike has any flaws... and they are built by hand.. they will break. We had the headtube snap off of a Trek full carbon hardtail a couple of weeks ago. It happens.

    A lot depends on your planned usage. If your goal is to NOT use the bike as a trailbike. To race a bike that's too light until it breaks and to get it replaced, the the Fuel is probably the ticket. If you want to ride the bike as a trailbike and race it, the Flux is the better bike... by far.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker
    I will concede that I have brought the Flux back onto my: " possible next bike" list. Mainly because the first I heard of the 600$ credit thing was last night. I Know Velo got hosed with Trek's $240 credit, If I'm hearing right even if it's 10 years old when the Turner cracks it's worth $600 ?? If so then we're back to the real comparison points: Ride, Price, Weight... Could somone explain in depth how that credit works ? Did I mention Top Fuel's were supposedly weiging in at 23lbs fully built ?
    As mentioned above. The Flux frame is the same weight as the Top Fuel. btw.... Have you noticed that when you talk about ride, and weight with the Trek, you constantly have to use "supposedly" and "rumor has it"? Think about it.

    Enjoy whatever bike you buy

  60. #60
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    I agree and learned the hard way...

    Quote Originally Posted by frorider
    dave.mountainbiker, some friendly advice. when comparing bike weights, focus on FRAME weight not total weight if you want a meaningful comparison. there is no reason you couldn't put components similar to the Trek's on a Nitrous frame, et voila, you'd have an XC bike within ounces of the Trek. With all the pros/cons of that Trek bike build. Any frame on the market with travel similar to the Nitrous, and performance (e..g lateral stability) similar to the Nitrous, will be similar in weight---or heavier--than the Nitrous.

    Or, if weight really matters to you, become a mtbr geek, do some research, and decide what blend of weight/price/durability/performance works for you. Example: Stan's aluminum rotors save significant weight, but require special pads. Example: Stan's rims will save a lot of weight compared to the typical rim/tire, but the durability on ragged terrain will be similar to the wheels on that ultralight Trek...i.e. not great.

    The mainstream brands like Trek and Specialized have an interesting pricing approach. At the mid-range, the mainstream brands often enable you to buy a complete bike (XT, etc) for much less than you'd pay for a similar build kit + hi-end boutique frame. Granted. But highest-end bikes from brands like specialized tend to be priced VERY high...like 5 grand. In those cases, if you deal with a good shop that deals in high-end build kits, you can find that a boutique frame + truly custom build kit = similar price to the mainstream version.

    The exception to this rule is when you pull a vulture move, and buy a high-end mainstream bike with full XTR blah blah blah that has been gathering dust and is about to be replaced by next year's model.

    but that doesn't sound like your situation.
    I bought a Specialized S-Works for close to 5k before I new better. It had full XTR etc. A year later I sell it for around $2800 and feel like I got away with something. I see the same bile at the shop drop to $3800. All three of my bikes today are frames where I got to choose the parts. I couldn't be happier than I am with my new 06 RFX. I getting a Sultan or what ever DT comes out with in a year and will probably sell my Salsa.
    "These people take a dump that’s a bigger difference than the a 5 Spot and a Blur LTc." DT

  61. #61
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    Ok, I road Velo's Turner for about 90 minutes on "aggressive race terrain" Meaning it's rougher then typical XC race terrain, but not "all Mountain" terrain.

    Guys, I know you love your Turners, but for me this bike felt squirlley.
    HighLevel: Climbed like a billygoat, descended like a unicycle. I noticed within minutes the weight difference, both accending and decsending.
    Specifics:
    HATED the front fork- it was a Fox fork, the auto lockout had me dabbing about 200% more then usual. I love every Fox i've ever rode so this was a surprise & Probably due to the set up for Velo... a 30 lbs difference in ride weight, so I'll let that one slide.
    DISLIKED: shorter top tube. I felt like I was way too far over the handlebars all the time. Descending was sketchy .
    LIKED: Shorter toptube. Felt like I had much more controll on the climbs, and definitely had much more gas left in the tank at the top of the climbs.
    LOVED: the weight difference. Peddaling 24lbs was much better then 34lbs UP hill.

    BOTTOM LINE: Would not buy a turner flux unless I could test ride one that didn't feel sketch on the down. I'm an agressive rider and if the end answer is: " I need to slow down on the descents to ride a 24 lbs bike then mebby the question is "do I really want a sub 25 lbs race machine? " I am holding out for whatever trek top fuel comes out with. I shall give it a fair shake and test ride it, and let you know. Rumor has it that the new GaryFisher HiFi rocks, So maybe I'll never make up my mind ?...

  62. #62
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    Setup is a major condition of a test ride. If it's rigged for someone else's weight and handling preference, you won't likely find it appealing unless you have the same requirements. A poor fork setup alone can ruin just about any ride. Add in a too short cockpit(stem, seat pos) , and shock set up for a 30# weight difference and you might as well have been riding a Wallmart bike. This goes double if you are particular about certain things.

    If you need to decend agressively, a 24# race bike seems almost a polar opposite. Heck, there are Nitrous bikes built up at 23lbs.

    At the very least test one with longer, non-gizmo fork on it.
    With an auto-lockout you may have no idea if the fork was set up way too soft. It'll ride high in the travel until you hit something then sink past halfway changing the head angle and get twichy and mushy. But you might not be aware of these conditions if you were busy trying to stay on the trail.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 12-01-2006 at 07:29 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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    24 lbs is a bit light for the Flux but mine is around 28. I find it to be (with its long wheelbase) one of the more stable bikes. I love the way it rides and I find the TT to be plenty long (24.2 for the large). Personally, I would never build a 4" trailbike to be 24 lbs- that's a fast XC Racer build. Anyway, it is still one of the best bikes I've ridden but I built it almost like someone would build the Spot so it's very stable up and down and can fly around corners. The odd thing is that I find the TT to be comfortably long but not crazy long at 24.2" (Effective TT). I also found the Flux to be so easy to ride and quickly find a fast pace.

    Well, good luck with your final selection.

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    I mis-spoke Velo's flux is 25lbs.
    I hear you on the frame weight vs the components, however totally dismissing "out the door" weight isn't right either. For instance: Assuming the ride is comparable (it's an assumption, take it easy now), If trek can set up a 23lbs bike for the same price as a 26lbs flux I think it's a valid test. I'd rather not drop 4k on a bike that needs a thousand more $$'s to get it down to race weight. I want a bike that's ready to race out the door.

    I'll let Velo speak to the differene in stability. He road my Trek Liquid w/ Marzocci Bomber for the same ride I took his Flux on... Trust me, and if not listen to him, that Liquid is WAAY more stable on the descents. Granted it's 34 lbs and considered and "all mountain" bike. The liquid has a very similar feel to the GaryFisher Genisis geometry, which I like very much. My hopes are that the Top fuel will have the longer top tube and come in at my price/weight limit.... BUT:

    My bets are that the Top Fuel will feel equally squirlly if not more so then the flux, it' will be heavier then "rumor" has it, and by the time I get it down to an exceptable weight it'll end up costing about the same. Until Trek proves me wrong Turner is still in the hunt (with a different FrontFork).

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker
    I mis-spoke Velo's flux is 25lbs.
    I hear you on the frame weight vs the components, however totally dismissing "out the door" weight isn't right either. For instance: Assuming the ride is comparable (it's an assumption, take it easy now), If trek can set up a 23lbs bike for the same price as a 26lbs flux I think it's a valid test. I'd rather not drop 4k on a bike that needs a thousand more $$'s to get it down to race weight. I want a bike that's ready to race out the door.

    I'll let Velo speak to the differene in stability. He road my Trek Liquid w/ Marzocci Bomber for the same ride I took his Flux on... Trust me, and if not listen to him, that Liquid is WAAY more stable on the descents. Granted it's 34 lbs and considered and "all mountain" bike. The liquid has a very similar feel to the GaryFisher Genisis geometry, which I like very much. My hopes are that the Top fuel will have the longer top tube and come in at my price/weight limit.... BUT:

    My bets are that the Top Fuel will feel equally squirlly if not more so then the flux, it' will be heavier then "rumor" has it, and by the time I get it down to an exceptable weight it'll end up costing about the same. Until Trek proves me wrong Turner is still in the hunt (with a different FrontFork).

    Dave,

    Your issues seem to be far less with thehandling of the Flux. I would imagine that when you ride the Trek, it to will feel sketchy and not that fun to ride. You are coming off a longer travel biek and your perspective is skewed toward a longer travel, slacker angled bike. I think if you are really interested ina Turner, throw weight out the window and look for a bike which suits your riding style. In my opinion that is not a Flux. David has said it for years, he is confident that a little bit of introspective evaluation will land you on the right bike and provide years and years of enjoyment. As for the warranty, it is simply a leap of faith you must take. I can speak from very personal experience regarding this and tell you 100% there is no better customer service bike company around. You talk about how your Trek had a 1-3 week turn around when broken. I have seen Turner riders back on their bike within 48 hours. I know euro racers who broke a bike practicing on thursday and still raced on sunday.....now I know there are guys who have had long waits to get a replacements. It is possible due to inventory delays that you could have a wait. Think of it this way, Trek is a huge corporation that probably builds more bikes per year just to satisfy warranty concerns than DT builds all year long. David is a guy who has to think about employee paychecks, truck payments and things of that sort. Expecting him to warrant your bike forever is not realistic. Also condsider the lifetime warranty...who's lifetime? There are hundreds of guys who can tell stories of bikes which had a lifetime waranty and still had to pay to replace it for one reason or another. Abuse of a lifetime warranties has been rampid for year, everyone raise there hand who has a "friend" who purposely broke a bike just to ge ta new one. I am sure there are some Cannondale guys who can atest to that! A lifetime warranty sucks if you continually have to use it!

    My $.02....buy a 5 Spot(more stable/built for more abuse), build it with lite parts and be happy that your biggest problem is having to decide which $4k bike to buy!

  66. #66
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    A Liquid is a lot more like a 5 Spot than a Flux. But besides that, Comparing a bike with a Bomber against a Fox XC brainmabob is beyond apples and oranges.

    But seriously if you can get a fully kitted 23-pound Trek for the price of a Flux, get it. That's a helluva deal as it's going to need all top shelf XTR or X.0 components and a lot of carbon to make that weight, or the frame is going to have to sacrifice a great deal of durability to shed all those pounds. And it will likely have one heckuva noodly fork.

    Best thing to do is first find the actual Trek you are considering. Get it weighed accurately and give it a ride. If it meets the weight and ride, then you're golden. Fit and ride is most important of all.

    While you're looking, I'd suggest you don't write off the Flux or 5 Spot. Get on one with a build more suitable for your needs.

    G'luck Dave, Let us know how it all works out.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.mountainbiker
    Turner, Fisher, Ritchey, Breeze. These guys invented the sport of Mt. Biking and tested their bikes by raceing them down a Mountain side in CA (re-pack races). This was not a physical endurance race as much as it was a mechanical endurance race... My point is that Mt Biking is as much about a bike that can handle all terrain as it is anything else. I can hear my own words being turned against me as I type, because I'm concerned with weight of a bike. TheClunkers of our forefathers were 40+ lbs, & I want sub 25lbs, but hey that was 30 years ago. I'm sure "we have the technology" .

    Sorry if this seems like a rant on you Random, it's not, but this IS all terrain cycling. The bike should be able to take said: "terrain" at what ever speed I can muster... That said, if you must wear "full plate armor" to ride, then all bets are off. That upsets the delicate balance between 'Preserve thy self ' and bicycle durability.
    Naa, I don't see it as a rant--good comments, you make sense. Of course, the sport has evolved since the Repack days, but I agree that the sport is about what your bike can do as much as it is about what you can do.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtntrance
    I bought a Specialized S-Works for close to 5k before I new better. It had full XTR etc. A year later I sell it for around $2800 and feel like I got away with something. I see the same bile at the shop drop to $3800.

    Cr@p, I did the SAME EXACT THING, how weird is that???????? The only thing left of that original bike is the thompson stem, sl wheelset, and fox 100x, which will go when I get a 5spot . . . . .

  69. #69
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    So we switched bikes for the Weds night group ride. Zero setup was done on either bike besides a pedal swap. Granted this was a mistake but we both knew going in what each others bike would do. This wasnt inteded as a "comparison" but it seems to have turned into one.
    I was surprised to hear what he had to say about my front fork as I have loved it since the day I got it. (Fox F100x) I do tend to run my fork stiffer than normal and the bump threshhold is set in the middle. (btw my XL Flux is 25.5 not 25).

    His Fuel has a Marzoochi Z1 Free Ride that must weigh 6 lbs easy so it did feel better on the rocky, rooty short descents than my Fox.

    A better test will be to get a Demo TopFuel and have both bikes set up correctly and let him ride one then the other.

    All in all it was a fun night....its always amazing when you ride someone else's bike and how you think to yourself "how the hell does he ride this!!" Anyone who can climb a 32lb bike as fast as Dave can has a serious motor.
    Oh by the way..He's the 2006 NC State Sport Class Champ - yes riding the Fuel..... nuf said

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    But seriously if you can get a fully kitted 23-pound Trek for the price of a Flux, get it. That's a helluva deal as it's going to need all top shelf XTR or X.0 components and a lot of carbon to make that weight, or the frame is going to have to sacrifice a great deal of durability to shed all those pounds. And it will likely have one heckuva noodly fork.
    Good idea zilla.... and then ditch the frame and buy a Turner. Swap those blingy parts onto the Turner and you have a winner.

    Big companies like Trek get guys into their bikes by offering deals on whole bikes that make the boutique frames seem impossibly expensive. The treks, giants and specializeds of the world do have their place; and it is for those who can't justify spending $4-6K on a bike.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightySchmoePong
    I broke a Fuel twice, and the second time I asked them to replace the rear triangle as well because it was so beat up and they did. Can't ask for more than that!

    I also knew a guy that got a brand new carbon Fuel when his old carbon Y bike broke. Personally I think Trek has an excellent warrantee.

    Dave

    my expeirence with treks warrany is that they will generally cover anything, but they take their sweet time doing it.

    also, their full suspension bikes really aren't up for anything more than casual riding. getting more than a season of hard XC use out of a fuel or something is a miracle.


    all imho of course

    interesting your friend is debating between the best full suspension bike on the market and the worst.

  72. #72
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    sounds to be like you've already set your mind on a 23lb full-boinger, no matter what the brand. You'll have to spend lots, to get a flux down to 22-23 lbs.......you might as well get a Turner Nitrous [a few more dollars]......the Flux really isn't a "racer" - it's a trail bike, you can race if you want to....it really shines in longer endurance type events where the fine line between racerboy light weight and comfort cushiness really come into play.

    I don't know what kind of racer you are, or seriousness level, but if you're set on a 23lb bike, or bust - then perhaps the Flux isn't for you. I'm not a Turner [merely a rider] salesman so I say " Get the Trek and be done with it."

  73. #73
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    IMO: Dave gives me the distinct impression he's not into picking lines, but enjoys decending with near reckless abandon. His first comments about expecting to break a frame add to this. This kind of riding is way outside the Nitrous' Race-day-only intended useage. He needs a trailbike. He want's the decending stability, stiffness and durability that can only reasonably be found in a light to medium trailbike. He want's it to rip like a 5 Spot but he wants it to weigh like a Nitrous.... the only Turner I can think of that would be a best compromise of lightness and trailworthyness is the Flux. ... But he's gotta give up this 23-24lb goal, it's just not practical for this kind of riding.

    If his intent is to beat the beegeebies out of the bike w/o regard to lines or impacts and then warranty it when it gives up the ghost, Trek is the way to go IMO... Edit: I agree with JC and jkrmtb, the Trek package deals are extremely attractive. Remember even with the economies of scale, several compromises on the frame have to be made to keep the total package price so competitative.

    If he wants a bike to enjoy the heights of careful and thoughtful design, execution, and implementation and above all, a bike to keep long term... then Turner can be an excellent choice.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 12-03-2006 at 05:10 PM.
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  74. #74
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    Not everyone has to be on a Turner.

    In this case, there is overwhelming info that would lead this buyer to a Trek.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Not everyone has to be on a Turner.

    In this case, there is overwhelming info that would lead this buyer to a Trek.

  76. #76
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    ive been wantin to say this for about a week now so here goes.

    for gawds sake! buy the trek and be done with this already!

    i, for one, dont wanna be back in this argument when either (or any?) bike he gets doesnt make him happy. the expectations are too high, much too broad and far outside of reasonable if ya ask me. now back to yer regularly schedualed spot fork choice discussions.
    No, I'm NOT back!

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