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  1. #1
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    Turner bushing replacement notes...

    Just replaced the bushings on my RFX/RT66. Some are some items of note.

    First off, I used Tscheezy's instructions for the most part. They were great. Only, just like any fellow Turner owner, I was under the impression that the main pivot was the one one the seat tube the rocker pivots on. No big deal.

    I have a late '02 RFX and the first thing I'd noticed was that the pivot shafts had changed. The shafts that came in my rebuild kit had a tighter spiral. Pic is attached.

    I couldn't believe how tightly the pivot shafts sat in the bushings. The horst and chainstay pivots in particular. I actually had to press the pivot shafts into their openings... They were that tight. I just hope the shafts are now rotating inside the bushings and not the bushings inside the frame. This is a real concern of mine in the horst pivots since there is simply a bolt passing through the pivot shaft whereas the larger pivots have their connecting components bolted to the shafts themselves. I guess I'll plan on disassembling these sometime soon to see if things loosened up a bit. Maybe even try my older shafts to see if they fit more loosely.

    Lastly, in addition to a change in pivot shafts, it looks like the o-rings have changed over the last couple of years a bit as well. The 3 pair of larger o-rings now have concaved surfaces whereas the o-rings that came off of my RFX where flat. The horst pivot o-rings appeared unchanged. They remain flat on all sides. I've attached a pic of those as well.

    I didn't check them against my old o-rings, but the new horst o-rings seems almost too thick. Their girth seems to exceed the girths of the bushing flange and raised "bushing-pedistal-thing" combined. This fact made it difficult to have them seat properly. The Powder coat might be a contributer here, taking up some of the space that the bushing is supposed to occupy. They want to squirm out of the pivot area. I can push them back where they belong with a small screwdriver, but they wiggle out (not as much as before) with some suspension movement.

    I actally had a similar problem with my old set-up with the older style o-rings at the rocker pivot.

    I hope she breaks in nice. The new painted rear of my bike looks great. Most of the visitors to this forum are 5spot owners, so it's likely that those pivot shafts are up to date. But it's nice to know that they're constantly being refined.

    Please post any comments or questions.

  2. #2
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    A pic of the pivot shafts. New on the left, old on the right. Sorry for the poor quality of the pic.
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  3. #3
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    Bad pic number 2 New on the left, old on the right. It's tough to tell, but you can see the concave surface of the new o-ring where the light is hitting the o-ring (approx 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock).
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  4. #4
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    The new concavity in the oring is cool. I was kinda wondering when they would do something like that. I agree that it is good that they are continually improving the system, though I noticed in my most recent bushing replacment that the shafts seemed to be a fraction of a mm narrower than the old ones. They actually slid in more easily than the ones they were replacing. I am running an old shaft at the main (bb area) pivot, and the new styles at the others in my Spot and the same in my XCE. I wonder if they had a run of out-of-spec skinny ones...? So ALL of yours went in tight? That is a good thing. It allows the bushing to support a greater surface area of the shaft under high loads. Did you notice any surface or finish wear on the shafts you pulled out?

    When I get home I will do an update to the instructions to more explicitly point out which pivots are which.

    See ya,
    tscheezy
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  5. #5
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    The horst link pivot shafts went in tight and the seatstay pivot shaft went in tight. The others were tight, but at least I could get them in with my hands. I had to push the horst and chainstay ones in with clamps and a vice respectively.

    I didn't have my old hardware with me so I couldn't really compare to see if the thinkness of the bushings were the issue or the diameter of the pivot shafts.

    My bike was a demo bike at IB02, so she's a bit like that promiscuous gal friend that you wish you'd never slept with... all of your buddies have had a turn with her. That plus the miles that me and my 200lb frame put on her made me think the bushings would be well worn. They weren't. What I didn find as odd though was that one of the bushings seemed to have an indentation that matched the cuts in the pivot shafts. It might have been from my banging them out though. I used an 8mm (I think) 1/4" drive socket on an extension to get the first one of each pair out (tapped it with a hammer. I then used a 10mm (again, IIRC) to tap the second one out.

    I also wonder if the new poweder coat on the seatstays is the reason that the o-rings don't sit right... It appeared as though Olympic PC was a bit off when they masked the area that would come in contact with the shaft/bushing/o-ring. It might be that the finish is taking up some of the space that the o-ring should be occupying.

    Here is a pic of the masked area centered around the bolt hole..
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  6. #6
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    Here is a pic of the other side with the masked area not centered around the hole so well...
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  7. #7
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    "Concave o-ring" and this accomplishes...? Like tscheezy, my new pivots were a simple finger push into the bushings where old ones were much tighter. Seems like it might not be a bad idea to remove paint on the inside area of horst link area and eliminate any concerns of centering o-ring. One wonders if in example "A" the pivots can be inserted with light finger pressue, and in example "B" the pivots need to be "pressed" in, what is the correct amount spec?

  8. #8
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Needing a clamp to stuff the shafts in seems excessively tight to me, but it beats them falling out on their own. I wonder if Turner has erred on the side of fat shafts now. I pulled the main pivot shaft out of my spot before our trip to see what was going on and saw some finish rub on it. After only 5 months I was surprised to see even this amount of marring, so I took an old shaft left over from my XCE overhaul which I knew was annodized and "thicker" and ran that during our current Utah trip. I will pull it all apart again at home and see how that one fared. It could be that Turner is being consistent and Igus is varying slightly. Dunno.

    The one thing I think could further improve the system would be grooves etched in the brim of the bushing to act as grease channels so you could actively purge the system consistantly. Over time I am able to get grease to pass through some of my pivots. With a dedicated channel, this would be the normal MO. A labyrinth seal instead of a simple O-ring would allow the pivots to last about a decade each. I was thinking the channel in the new O-rings was a step in this direction. I see it possibly as a grease groove which would hold a grease barrier in place with a "lip" seal on either side. Then again it may just make the O-ring more fragile and susceptible to wear and deformation. Time will tell.

    Incubus, I would like to see a shot of your complete frame again. I kick myself thoroughly for watching the 2 Route 66's get sold off while I hemmed and hawed. An RFX with a 1.5 would be just sooo sweet. Good snag.

    tscheezy
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    The horst link pivot shafts went in tight and the seatstay pivot shaft went in tight. The others were tight, but at least I could get them in with my hands. I had to push the horst and chainstay ones in with clamps and a vice respectively.

    I .... I used an 8mm (I think) 1/4" drive socket on an extension to get the first one of each pair out (tapped it with a hammer. I then used a 10mm (again, IIRC) to tap the second one out.
    Tnx for the info. Did you remove HL pivots on the bench or on the bike? I tried to knock my HLs out but couldn't get any leverage on them.(I used a small Torx socket, extention and hammer) I just wanted to grease those pivots as they are the hardest to inject grease through. If I recall there is no flow grove and the bushings almost completely cover the HL Zerk so I figured I'd just give them a little extra manually. It seems to me that these things are so tight they don't rotate very easily. I wonder if they do at all, or does the bolt just sort of rock inside the shaft?

    I suppose if I took the seatstays off I could use a block of wood to brace it but I didn't want to do the other pivots at that particular point, but that time will come soon I think, just so I see how they are doing.

    Oh well, they all seem quite play free and totally quiet. Were your upper SS/R-Rocker pivots very tight to move? Mine seem to have much more stiction than the other pivots.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 03-28-2004 at 07:45 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  10. #10
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    I just pulled apart my pivot at the bb and the horst link. Had to tap out and tap back in bb pivot with a rubber mallet. This, to my recollection, was tighter than the other two large pivots. My HL pivots just pushed out with my fingers and went back in just as easily and rotate easily. When the swingarm alone was connected to the bb it felt smooth but had some resistence (stiction). Once the HL was connected the entire rear assembly drops under its own weight. My guess is there is a wide range of what is acceptable with no lose of performance until some real wear occurs. Curious though, when lifting the swingarm through its range of motion I could not detect any movement at the HL. It looked like it acted as if there was no pivot there at all. I wonder how much movement really happens at the HL.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    The new concavity in the oring is cool. I was kinda wondering when they would do something like that. I agree that it is good that they are continually improving the system, though I noticed in my most recent bushing replacment that the shafts seemed to be a fraction of a mm narrower than the old ones. They actually slid in more easily than the ones they were replacing. I am running an old shaft at the main (bb area) pivot, and the new styles at the others in my Spot and the same in my XCE. I wonder if they had a run of out-of-spec skinny ones...? So ALL of yours went in tight? That is a good thing. It allows the bushing to support a greater surface area of the shaft under high loads. Did you notice any surface or finish wear on the shafts you pulled out?

    When I get home I will do an update to the instructions to more explicitly point out which pivots are which.

    See ya,
    tscheezy
    Those instructions were great. Thanks Tscheezy
    They were very helpful when I replaced the bushings of my RFX, that I just bought and I'm just get it on the trail worthy.
    On your instructions the biggest problem I had was trying to figure out which pivot was the Main pivot.... and I am glad your going to clear it up. I even contacted Casey to ask which pivot was which. (That was before I found this place with its vast wealth of info for Turner owners.) I thought the same as Incubus did..........
    Casey told me, if I got it right.............. is that all three pivotsn the bb, seat tube where the rocker rocks on and the rear pivot on the rocker above the rear tire are considered Main pivots. Did I get it right or wrong.........?

    Thanks

  12. #12
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    Inquiring minds want to know...

    Did you end up with the right color?

  13. #13
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    Edited because of a double post...
    Last edited by incubus; 03-29-2004 at 06:51 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullebukk
    Did you end up with the right color?
    Fortunately I did. Sparkle red it was. The pics I'd posted in this thread really show the metal flake. Perfect match.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Needing a clamp to stuff the shafts in seems excessively tight to me, but it beats them falling out on their own. I wonder if Turner has erred on the side of fat shafts now. I pulled the main pivot shaft out of my spot before our trip to see what was going on and saw some finish rub on it. After only 5 months I was surprised to see even this amount of marring, so I took an old shaft left over from my XCE overhaul which I knew was annodized and "thicker" and ran that during our current Utah trip. I will pull it all apart again at home and see how that one fared. It could be that Turner is being consistent and Igus is varying slightly. Dunno.
    I should've really popped the pivot shafts into all of the different pivot locations to see if they'd be tight all around. Though I'd be willing to be that it's due to the openings in the frame, rather than variations in bushing thickness or shaft diameter in a single batch or hardware. I'm pretty sure that I at least passed the horst link pivot shafts through their appropriate bushings prior to pressing the bushings into the frame and if memory serves me correctly, there was some friction, but I would've never guessed that I'd ultimately have to press the shafts into the horst links.

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Incubus, I would like to see a shot of your complete frame again. I kick myself thoroughly for watching the 2 Route 66's get sold off while I hemmed and hawed. An RFX with a 1.5 would be just sooo sweet. Good snag.
    I'll take a pic of my newly painted frame sometime soon. In the meantime, here is a pic that I'd posted a couple times before. The painted rear (and black wheel) really change the way she looks.
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    Last edited by incubus; 03-29-2004 at 06:53 AM.

  16. #16
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgprimo
    Casey told me, if I got it right.............. is that all three pivotsn the bb, seat tube where the rocker rocks on and the rear pivot on the rocker above the rear tire are considered Main pivots.
    That is an interesting proposition. I still think Turner is only referring to the one pivot behind the bb as the "main" pivot since on their instruction card I *think* it refers to the pivot in the singular (as in, there is only one of them) and the other pivots which receive the lower torque in the plural (as in, there are a few of them). I don't have one of those torque cards with me, so this is from memory. It seems somewhat odd that all the pivots are seemingly identicle in construction (except the HLs) and yet would take different torques. In the end it is the pivot behind the bb which really gets wailed on, so that is the only one to err on the side of overtightening (which would only eliminate lateral play anyway...).

    I'm off to meet DGC for a ride. Have fun, people.

    tscheezy
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Tnx for the info. Did you remove HL pivots on the bench or on the bike? I tried to knock my HLs out but couldn't get any leverage on them.(I used a small Torx socket, extention and hammer) I just wanted to grease those pivots as they are the hardest to inject grease through. If I recall there is no flow grove and the bushings almost completely cover the HL Zerk so I figured I'd just give them a little extra manually. It seems to me that these things are so tight they don't rotate very easily. I wonder if they do at all, or does the bolt just sort of rock inside the shaft?

    I suppose if I took the seatstays off I could use a block of wood to brace it but I didn't want to do the other pivots at that particular point, but that time will come soon I think, just so I see how they are doing.

    Oh well, they all seem quite play free and totally quiet. Were your upper SS/R-Rocker pivots very tight to move? Mine seem to have much more stiction than the other pivots.

    Cheers!
    You're right, there aren't any flow grooves in the horst-link pivot shafts. You're also right about the spacing between the bushings back there. I'll attach a pic that I'd posted before that illustrates that. I actally considered pulling out the zirc fitting and drilling through the bushings just to have a larger contact area for the shaft and the small grease pocket. I don't think that it would cause any harm.

    As far as getting the old bushings out, I sacrificed one on each side by driving a small screw driver into it to get it started on it's way out. Though I don't see why you'd need to remove them just to lube up the rear?

    And yes, there seems to be quite a bit of stiction in the rear end. At the chainstay pivot in particular. Hopefully it'll loosen up a bit over time.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I kick myself thoroughly for watching the 2 Route 66's get sold off while I hemmed and hawed. An RFX with a 1.5 would be just sooo sweet.
    Don't kick yourself just yet. While ordering some stickers from Casey last week I asked him if he was aware of the attention that the RFX was getting on the forum and if Turner had any plans on reissuing this bike. In a nutshell he replied that the Highline is going to fill the gap nicely. Weights are supposed to be similar to the RFX, but with an additional 1.5” of travel and a 1.5 steer tube. They’re shooting to have production in full swing by Interbike ready to take orders. Looks like I’ll have to find a way to get to the Dirt Demos at Interbike this year .


    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    The one thing I think could further improve the system would be grooves etched in the brim of the bushing to act as grease channels so you could actively purge the system consistantly.
    I think my first post on the new forum was in regards to this (oh the memories) as I was a little confused and dismayed that this wasn't the case. I find that if I cycle the suspension with the shock off while I'm injecting grease I can get it to purge to an extent and not with any consistency. Maybe this is a sign that it's time to do a suspension overhaul.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    Just replaced the bushings on my RFX/RT66. Some are some items of note.

    First off, I used Tscheezy's instructions for the most part. They were great. Only, just like any fellow Turner owner, I was under the impression that the main pivot was the one one the seat tube the rocker pivots on. No big deal.

    I have a late '02 RFX and the first thing I'd noticed was that the pivot shafts had changed. The shafts that came in my rebuild kit had a tighter spiral. Pic is attached.

    I couldn't believe how tightly the pivot shafts sat in the bushings. The horst and chainstay pivots in particular. I actually had to press the pivot shafts into their openings... They were that tight. I just hope the shafts are now rotating inside the bushings and not the bushings inside the frame. This is a real concern of mine in the horst pivots since there is simply a bolt passing through the pivot shaft whereas the larger pivots have their connecting components bolted to the shafts themselves. I guess I'll plan on disassembling these sometime soon to see if things loosened up a bit. Maybe even try my older shafts to see if they fit more loosely.

    Lastly, in addition to a change in pivot shafts, it looks like the o-rings have changed over the last couple of years a bit as well. The 3 pair of larger o-rings now have concaved surfaces whereas the o-rings that came off of my RFX where flat. The horst pivot o-rings appeared unchanged. They remain flat on all sides. I've attached a pic of those as well.

    I didn't check them against my old o-rings, but the new horst o-rings seems almost too thick. Their girth seems to exceed the girths of the bushing flange and raised "bushing-pedistal-thing" combined. This fact made it difficult to have them seat properly. The Powder coat might be a contributer here, taking up some of the space that the bushing is supposed to occupy. They want to squirm out of the pivot area. I can push them back where they belong with a small screwdriver, but they wiggle out (not as much as before) with some suspension movement.

    I actally had a similar problem with my old set-up with the older style o-rings at the rocker pivot.

    I hope she breaks in nice. The new painted rear of my bike looks great. Most of the visitors to this forum are 5spot owners, so it's likely that those pivot shafts are up to date. But it's nice to know that they're constantly being refined.

    Please post any comments or questions.
    Interesting. You had almost the same exact experience I did when I recently replaced my bushings after a powdercoat. Everything was the same right down to the horst link o-rings not wanting to seat quite right and tighetening the seat tube rocker pivot as the "main" pivot.

    At first I was statring to pry the horst link open but quickly stopped before I damaged anything. After some tweeking I think I finally got them to sit right.

    However, the only difference is how tight your shafts fit in the bushings. I lubed mine as detailed in the instrcutions and they basically slid right in. No "pressing" required. Actually, I tapped all of my bushings in dry with a rubber mallet and that seem to work fine as well. You just had to excercise caution.

    Your PC really look high zoot compared to the semi-black I got....looks great!

    KL

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLars
    Your PC really look high zoot compared to the semi-black I got....looks great!

    KL
    Post picks of your ride... I remember seeing a metallic red Uzzi SLX that had a black rear right out of Intense's factory on an LBS' wall. Looked good with the black fork mock-mounted.
    Last edited by incubus; 03-30-2004 at 07:15 AM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    Post picks of your ride... I remember seeing a metallic red Uzzi SLX that had a black rear right out of Intense's factory on an LBS' wall. Looked good with the black fork the mock-mounted.
    I will...mine does look good I think...it has a Sherman Slider on the front.

    I just need to get my DRS and then I will post.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    You're right, there aren't any flow grooves in the horst-link pivot shafts. You're also right about the spacing between the bushings back there. I'll attach a pic that I'd posted before that illustrates that. I actally considered pulling out the zirc fitting and drilling through the bushings just to have a larger contact area for the shaft and the small grease pocket. I don't think that it would cause any harm.
    Tnx for the pic...that was the post I was referring to. The drilling idea is interesting. A small pinhole about the size of a zerk point shouldn't hurt anything and could make greasing the shafts much easier. I think I hear my dremel calling...

    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    As far as getting the old bushings out, I sacrificed one on each side by driving a small screw driver into it to get it started on it's way out. Though I don't see why you'd need to remove them just to lube up the rear?
    I don't want to remove the bushings, just the HL pivot shafts...I can't get it out. I can't even make them rotate (by hand). I tried knocking on them with a small torx socket and hammer but they won't budge. I'll have to remove the seatstay yoke to brace it against my workbench if I'm going to get any leverage on them. That's a lot of fuss to grease them so I'll wait until I get ready to rotate the others. Maybe I can use a wood clamp similar to the one in Tscheezy's instructions to push on the socket from one side and against dropout with a block on the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by incubus
    And yes, there seems to be quite a bit of stiction in the rear end. At the chainstay pivot in particular. Hopefully it'll loosen up a bit over time.
    On my bike, the rocker and BB pivots move smoothly and easily. The upper SS pivot has quite a bit of stiction. like <3x more. The HL shafts, as tight as they are, if they move at all it'd be news to me.

    Then again, I'm thinking, this is all preventative maintenence since I don't have any problems, maybe I shouldn't put so much effort into fixing something that ain't broke.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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