View Poll Results: How do feel about Turner going from chainstay pivot to seatstay pivot?

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  • I don't care.

    26 15.20%
  • I care and it's great!!!

    14 8.19%
  • I care and it sucks!!!

    50 29.24%
  • It doesn't taste as good as Classic Turner but still better than that Ellsworth swill.

    30 17.54%
  • I'll wait and see...

    51 29.82%
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Thread: TNT Poll...

  1. #1
    Do It Yourself
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    TNT Poll...

    Here's a TNT poll since mtn_man2 didn't know how...
    Long Live Long Rides

  2. #2
    not so super...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    Here's a TNT poll since mtn_man2 didn't know how...
    Somthing similar on Boutique Bikes Site too.
    Nothing to see here.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    Somthing similar on Boutique Bikes Site too.
    ...just to keep it on top for a while

  4. #4
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    The question is really more simple than the poll indicates: you walk into a bike shop, the merchant puts two frames on the counter - a 5 Spot with the classic Horst link and a 5 Spot with TNT. The price is the same. Which one would you buy?
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  5. #5
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    Keep my seat stay Rocky Mt Scadium Element ???

    Love turners! alway was longing to have one , now is the questions any real difference between a flux and my current 5.6 # ( 2538 gram) full bearing RM element Tsc ??
    Same seat stay design???

  6. #6
    what a joke
    Reputation: ozlongboarder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    The question is really more simple than the poll indicates: you walk into a bike shop, the merchant puts two frames on the counter - a 5 Spot with the classic Horst link and a 5 Spot with TNT. The price is the same. Which one would you buy?
    Horst link.... thats why I bought mine, however........I wil wait to see how the new bikes perform.
    blah blah blah

  7. #7
    Lay off the Levers
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    The question is really more simple than the poll indicates: you walk into a bike shop, the merchant puts two frames on the counter - a 5 Spot with the classic Horst link and a 5 Spot with TNT. The price is the same. Which one would you buy?
    Its not like many people will have such an option, and those that do won't have it for long.

    The die have been cast. HLs are not in the '06 lineup. I personally would reserve judgement until I read a lot of feedback and possibly throw a leg over one before deciding. As a matter of fact, it was the boatload of positive feedback that drew me away from the other choices in the first place.

    When I was shopping for a bike I needed to narrow the field. I decided (right or wrong) all the buzz about HLs would help me reduce the chances of buying a pig. That cut the field to Turner Titus and EW. I wasn't familliar with the brands at that time. Now that I've been reading daily I know who makes the pearls, and I can start with that rather than a design theology.

    Am I a HL fan? yes, but I'm willing to give a SSP a chance if it comes from a builder who is relentless at making things right.

    I wouldn't buy a sub par bike regardless of the brand. I wouldn't avoid a top brand based on a linkage change either. DT will have more competition from Ventanna but I don't think I'd be choosing between Turner and Kona or Jamis. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either of those two but not in place of a bike like Turner builds.

    I don't evnvy those just getting into the game though. This is a tough time to make a first botique brand choice.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  8. #8
    Silence and Thunder...
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    What 'zilla said. That's my vote....
    ...every day sends future to past...

  9. #9
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    Could the people who think "it's great" explain why? Other than not having an ICT sticker and paying TE a few bucks, I don't seen any improvements.
    Long Live Long Rides

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozlongboarder
    Horst link.... thats why I bought mine, however........I wil wait to see how the new bikes perform.
    Personally, after riding 2 of the TNT equipped 6Packs, a TNT equipped Nitrous, a TNT equipped Flux, and a TNT equipped 5Spot at I-Bike; the Pack was my one of my 2 favorite bikes of the 25 I rode with the other being a Pugsley. The Turner lineup absolutely rocked!! If the TNT rear end effected the handling, feel, and control of the bike like so many Homers are afraid of, I sure couldn't feel any difference over the Horst link Turners I've ridden, at least not in the conditions we were in.

    I voted "I care and I love it" because I've ridden them and frankly, the suspension kicks arse on every model. I can't help but believe that those of you voting "I care and I hate it".....(A.) haven't been on one and (B.) are caught up in believing the Horst link is the sole reason a Turner frame is what it is. Dave Turner isn't going to let you down. He hasn't thus far and will continue to NOT do so. So, have some faith, take a ride on a TNT equipped bike, then make up your own mind.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    The question is really more simple than the poll indicates: you walk into a bike shop, the merchant puts two frames on the counter - a 5 Spot with the classic Horst link and a 5 Spot with TNT. The price is the same. Which one would you buy?
    the one that rides the best.

    why get hung up on slogans?

    this poll is obnoxious, as are the silly people who feel "betrayed" by Dave Turner, as are the fools who think that Dave Turner would intentionally switch to an inferior, poorly riding design.

    utter morons.

  12. #12
    Bite Me.
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    [QUOTE=Bikezilla]Its not like many people will have such an option, and those that do won't have it for long. QUOTE]

    True 'BZ, but the point of my comment was that knowing Turner to be one of the best overall packages out there, would you rather have the HL on your 5 Spot or the TNT - everything else being equal? For me, the HL is important, and between two otherwise identical frames, I'd pick the HL over the TNT.

    Not being an engineer, I can't defend my choice without relying on somebody like StevefromJH to explain why. TRUTH be told (strike that!) In reality, I probably will not notice the diff. between the HL and TNT in the real world of riding, and the Interbike reviews bear that out. So, having said that, Turner will still be on the top list of quality rides for me. BUT, there's always that nagging theoretical, what if??? HL is by no means everything. My old Dakar Pro was a HL, but the overall execution with the linkage, geometry, and frame quality put the Jamis so far below the Burner or the O2 (a better comparison) that I'm a commited Turner customer for life.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  13. #13
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Beastro
    Personally, after riding 2 of the TNT equipped 6Packs, a TNT equipped Nitrous, a TNT equipped Flux, and a TNT equipped 5Spot at I-Bike; the Pack was my one of my 2 favorite bikes of the 25 I rode with the other being a Pugsley. The Turner lineup absolutely rocked!! If the TNT rear end effected the handling, feel, and control of the bike like so many Homers are afraid of, I sure couldn't feel any difference over the Horst link Turners I've ridden, at least not in the conditions we were in.

    I voted "I care and I love it" because I've ridden them and frankly, the suspension kicks arse on every model. I can't help but believe that those of you voting "I care and I hate it".....(A.) haven't been on one and (B.) are caught up in believing the Horst link is the sole reason a Turner frame is what it is. Dave Turner isn't going to let you down. He hasn't thus far and will continue to NOT do so. So, have some faith, take a ride on a TNT equipped bike, then make up your own mind.
    What the he** are you doing on a nitrous? Is Vegas like the moon, gravity is less so you meet the weight limit?

    I saw pics of Larry on it also and thought 'that demo bike is off my list.'

    I saw the pugs and was wondering if those wheels will fit on my spot?

  14. #14
    Bite Me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    the one that rides the best.
    So which one rides the best? I think I'm really an "Udder moron" - Milk sucks..Got Tequila?
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Beastro
    I can't help but believe that those of you voting "I care and I hate it".....(A.) haven't been on one and (B.) are caught up in believing the Horst link is the sole reason a Turner frame is what it is. Dave Turner isn't going to let you down. He hasn't thus far and will continue to NOT do so. So, have some faith, take a ride on a TNT equipped bike, then make up your own mind.
    Good points, but I feel like I need to defend my vote- technically the option was "I care and it sucks", which I chose over "I'll wait and see" because that's just too ambivilent sounding to me. Furthermore the question was not "How do you think the new bikes will ride" but "How do feel about Turner going from chainstay pivot to seatstay pivot?". It sounds like the new bikes are just fine, but the fact that Turner had to change their time tested design sucks.

    You can't improve on perfection, but when you start tinkering with it the possibility arises to diminish what it was. I don't think that will happen here though, because like you said these bikes are going to rock regardless because of the man behind them.
    A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    the one that rides the best.

    why get hung up on slogans?

    this poll is obnoxious, as are the silly people who feel "betrayed" by Dave Turner, as are the fools who think that Dave Turner would intentionally switch to an inferior, poorly riding design.

    utter morons.
    DT did NOT switch because the seatstay pivot is superior to the chainstay pivot. Can it almost as good? Yup. But is it BETTER? Nope. I'm sure the bikes still ride great but are they as good as the previous models? Probably not. Fact remains that Turner isn't making chainstay pivot bikes anymore. So if you really liked the HL Turner you're stuck with trying to find on eBay. I guess future Turner owners will have to settle for suboptimal (local minima due to possible patent constraints) suspension performance.

    Besides, it's not like you're a suspension expert by any stretch. You couldn't tell any difference between a nice Horst Link bike and that high single pivot Ellsworthless ISIS until you found a new pivot point in your seat tube. <--- How's that for obnoxious?

    And now for something completely different...I'm looking forward to hearing more about the reincarnate Ibis bikes with dw link.
    Long Live Long Rides

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    DT did NOT switch because the seatstay pivot is superior to the chainstay pivot. Can it almost as good? Yup. But is it BETTER? Nope. I'm sure the bikes still ride great but are they as good as the previous models? Probably not. Fact remains that Turner isn't making chainstay pivot bikes anymore. So if you really liked the HL Turner you're stuck with trying to find on eBay. I guess future Turner owners will have to settle for suboptimal (local minima due to possible patent constraints) suspension performance.
    I didn't test all the models, but I did test the TNT 5 Spot and TNT 6 Pack at the dirt demo, and have both of those bikes with HLs built up at my shop. IMO there is no difference in pedaling and braking. They feel exactly the same to me. However, I did notice a difference in bump performance. The TNT bikes feel more at ease through rocks and rough corners. I'd have to attribute that to a slightly stiffer rear end compared to a HL bike. This is something I've always noticed about the Ventanas.

    Personally, I just don't see any benefit to Turners with HLs. IMO there are a number of bikes out there with HLs that have hugely inferior wheel paths as compared to the TNT. Many of them have been made by the company that owns the patent. Pretty sad IMO.
    Scott @ GO-RIDE.com
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  18. #18
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    madness

    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    The question is really more simple than the poll indicates: you walk into a bike shop, the merchant puts two frames on the counter - a 5 Spot with the classic Horst link and a 5 Spot with TNT. The price is the same. Which one would you buy?
    Food for thought. Going back in time with similar HL bikes of TE and DT, why is an E bike so much more money ? Would Turner been able to keep the same price point for the HL frames. ( pay for the horst and ict patents) Would all turner riders pay 200.00 to 500.00 dollars more for their bikes, like E riders do. Would it not make sense now that E has his own Fab Factory that his prices will be coming down? I will answer my own question with a postitive NO.
    Maybe, there are reasons to some of this madness.

  19. #19
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    Gotta agree with Gonzo,

    the one that rides the best. why get hung up on slogans?


    Now that DT has demoed HL vs SL on the same frame, the layout of the rear suspension turns out to be not so important after all, contrary to what the marketing folk would have you believe.

    Since the benefits of the HL have been a matter of faith or amateur theorising, it's not surprising people are upset it's been dropped. It's always dangerous to mess with religion.

    Bad case of the emperor's new clothes I'd say. I wonder if prospective buyers of other HL bikes will wake up to the way that marketing ploys are used to sell even boutique bikes?

    Time for the marketing guys to find another feature besides the HL rear suspension to promote... preferably one that doesn't matter too much, that's too complex to analyse but can be explained in pseudo-scientific terms, and is patented to give it some cachet.

  20. #20
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    I would like to clarify one of the votes.

    There is a vote from user name Ventanarama. This was not Larry. I did not realize Larry was logged in when I made the vote on the shop computer. I appoligize for any confusion and conclusions that may have been made. Sorry Dave. I didn't realize Larry was logged in. He did not place this vote. I did.

    Cheers,

    Brandon

  21. #21
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    Lone Voice in the Woods

    I might be the only long-time Homer that feels this way, but not only am I in favor of the new TNT system -- assuming it rides as well as Ts and Co. say -- but I'd just as soon that the seat stay pivot be replaced with a Yeti-like hinge.

    Occasionally, the HL may be superior (and can be argued to be so from an engineering standpoint), but as a near-200 pounder, I worship at the altar of stiffness in 90% of the mtb situations I find myself in.

    Poor Specialized. I suspect they will sell fewer of their bikes next year, since a lot of purchasers I know of started out looking at a Turner, then went the way of "I got this whole HL bike for only $279 more than the 5-Spot frame, and they both have the same rear suspension"!

  22. #22
    what a joke
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Beastro
    Personally, after riding 2 of the TNT equipped 6Packs, a TNT equipped Nitrous, a TNT equipped Flux, and a TNT equipped 5Spot at I-Bike; the Pack was my one of my 2 favorite bikes of the 25 I rode with the other being a Pugsley. The Turner lineup absolutely rocked!! If the TNT rear end effected the handling, feel, and control of the bike like so many Homers are afraid of, I sure couldn't feel any difference over the Horst link Turners I've ridden, at least not in the conditions we were in.

    I voted "I care and I love it" because I've ridden them and frankly, the suspension kicks arse on every model. I can't help but believe that those of you voting "I care and I hate it".....(A.) haven't been on one and (B.) are caught up in believing the Horst link is the sole reason a Turner frame is what it is. Dave Turner isn't going to let you down. He hasn't thus far and will continue to NOT do so. So, have some faith, take a ride on a TNT equipped bike, then make up your own mind.
    Hey Sean, I stand by my comments. I owned the El Salt, it rode nice, I tested Soupboys RFX and it was heavier but still accelerated better and braked better. I sold my Salty and got my Spot.

    Proof is in the riding, you tested them and said they were good. I have just done a few rides on Soupboys new El Cap and guess what... it rode freakin nice! As much as I rate some peoples opinions on here I still like to test them for myself or wait for feedback from as many people on different types of trails.

    I really hope TNT is as good as the old HL design....... it would suck donkey d!ck if it didn't though.
    blah blah blah

  23. #23
    EDR
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    I might be the only long-time Homer that feels this way, but not only am I in favor of the new TNT system -- assuming it rides as well as Ts and Co. say -- but I'd just as soon that the seat stay pivot be replaced with a Yeti-like hinge.
    !
    Ahhh.... Yeti. the "normal" type suspension can be just great, just ask Yeti (and many other) owners. Yes, I get the HL thing, but honestly, IMO, sometimes can be a little overblown. Nice design? Yes. The ONLY design that makes a bike a good bike? IMO, no.

    Besides, it's not like Turner invented the design......just rents it. HaHa and lol..
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 10-01-2005 at 11:24 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    I'd just as soon that the seat stay pivot be replaced with a Yeti-like hinge.
    Carbon pivots? Gawd no.
    A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn_man2
    There is a vote from user name Ventanarama. This was not Larry. I did not realize Larry was logged in when I made the vote on the shop computer.
    Next time you're logged in under Ventanarama feel free to post something along the lines of "Clearance Pricing on all Discontinued Turners Through the End of the Year at Mountain High Cyclery". Larry, being the good natured guy that he is, would naturally feel obligated to play along.
    A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.

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