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  1. #1
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    Thanks for the many great years

    Dave,

    Thanks for the many great years.

    I’ve been riding turner’s for some time now and have always felt their bikes are the pinnacle in climbing, breaking, and descending performance. That being said, I’ve purchased my very last Turner (until they return to their former glory)

    I fully understand the reasoning for moving to TNT, but I’m just not buying it. Yes TNT may be “almost as good” but a compromise here today and one tomorrow is still a compromise non the less (mind you, when I spend more on a bike than my car I’m not looking to compromise)

    In the end, all I can think of is how grand the experience has been. Dave, please forgive me for moving on, and I’ll be sure to forgive you for TNT.

    Thanks for a wonderful ride (my 05 6pack should be fine for many years) and I’ll see you when you return to your formal glory.

    -A

  2. #2
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    Ibis?

    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot

    Thanks for a wonderful ride (my 05 6pack should be fine for many years) and I’ll see you when you return to your formal glory.

    -A
    You got at last 5 years on that frame, I plan to spend 8 more on my obsolete Project-Push-Spotty 26 pounder (Finally working nicely, with Push Vanilla and Push Rp3, and Martas 180/160) after that who knows ... probably a stunning Taiwanese made frame made out of carbonizio

    Now .. if they discontinue the bushings ... it might be too much ... I might have to leave early

    Ibis? It is "only" $1899 retail with DW link and all carbon construction ... and it is an IBIS!
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    Last edited by Davide; 10-01-2005 at 02:10 AM.

  3. #3
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    I'm seriously considering that IBIS....such a nice bike!
    DW-Link, IBIS, 5.5" = drool...

  4. #4
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    I do fancy the ibis as well, but would like to hear more about it's resistance to point impacts and chipping etc.
    I like my bike frames to last longer than a squash racket...

  5. #5
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    Where do you put a water bottle?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    Ibis? It is "only" $1899 retail with DW link and all carbon construction ... and it is an IBIS!
    Does "Ibis" have John C. and the other players back, or is the "new Ibis" just a new company with the same name as the old company?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #7
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    I'm considering buying a Turner, I have heard a lot of good things about them and was just wondering what is TNT and what is the difference from the way Turner use to do rear triangles? I'm assuming that it is a change in design of the rear triangle but really don't understand what the change is. Also what are the disadvantages and advantages if any?

    Thanks for any input, if this is answered in another thread please direct me to it if you don't mind.

    Thanks
    Chris

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Does "Ibis" have John C. and the other players back, or is the "new Ibis" just a new company with the same name as the old company?
    Sorta both, I think. Sounds like John C has his own company, but most of the others are in Ibis again. Muddle thru their website for more info....

    http://www.ibisbicycles.com

    I like the Mojo's specs and weight, the price is definitely competitive, but I think it's a fugly frame design. Guess I'm just too old-fashioned...or maybe just old.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track rookie
    I'm considering buying a Turner, I have heard a lot of good things about them and was just wondering what is TNT and what is the difference from the way Turner use to do rear triangles? I'm assuming that it is a change in design of the rear triangle but really don't understand what the change is. Also what are the disadvantages and advantages if any?

    Thanks for any input, if this is answered in another thread please direct me to it if you don't mind.

    Thanks
    Chris
    No more horst link on the back, the new TNT turners are like the ventanas where the rear pivot point is now above the axle. This means the suspension will stiffen up under braking more (brake squat) and the pedaling will be a little less efficiant overall.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the response.

    I can see why people are upset over this, the pedal efficiency is been one of the big reason I wanted to buy a turner. I currently ride a hard tail I have been reluctant to go FS because of loss of pedal efficiency. I have been told this not the case with turners, that they pedal very well for FS bikes. I tried to look at a Ventanna and a turner side by side to see the difference but really couldn't tell. So I have somewhat of dumb queston, where is the horst link located on the turner flux?

    Thanks again.
    Chris

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track rookie
    Thanks for the response.

    I can see why people are upset over this, the pedal efficiency is been one of the big reason I wanted to buy a turner. I currently ride a hard tail I have been reluctant to go FS because of loss of pedal efficiency. I have been told this not the case with turners, that they pedal very well for FS bikes. I tried to look at a Ventanna and a turner side by side to see the difference but really couldn't tell. So I have somewhat of dumb queston, where is the horst link located on the turner flux?

    Thanks again.
    Chris
    Here's a couple of pics. The horst link is located forwad of and below the rear axle, like on my burner. the new pivot is above the rear axle. I have no opinion on what the ride difference is as I have had no time on either. But if I were you I'd read through the posts by Tscheezy and Bikezilla. Sounds like they don't ride much different. Biggest thing is don't form an opinion until you've had a chance to test one, or see some more in depth reviews.

    happy trails...

    squish
    Last edited by squish; 09-18-2007 at 10:02 AM.
    Get out and ride!

  12. #12
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    Thanks, I can clearly tell now what is being talked about. I'm planning on Demo a Turn Flux soon. It will probably be an 05 model, wich probably doesn't incorporate the change. I guess I should try ride a brand that is set up like the second picture (without horst link) and see if there is a difference.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track rookie
    Thanks, I can clearly tell now what is being talked about. I'm planning on Demo a Turn Flux soon. It will probably be an 05 model, wich probably doesn't incorporate the change. I guess I should try ride a brand that is set up like the second picture (without horst link) and see if there is a difference.
    Careful with that one to, different brands can ride totally different. Try to find a Turner with new rear end. Frame geometry, pivot locations, rocker shape and design, shock settings, it can all make a big difference in the way a bike can feel. But don't let that put you off, ride different bikes and make an informed decision you will be much happier with the bike you choose that way.

    happy trails...

    Josh
    Get out and ride!

  14. #14
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    Castellano / Flux

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Does "Ibis" have John C. and the other players back, or is the "new Ibis" just a new company with the same name as the old company?
    I think, just from Velonews, no "inside" info at all, that Castellano is right there (in the photo!). Which would be great because with Sherwood he is one of the real fathers of modern MTB.

    The Flux (and Nitrous) are not really close to the original Horsts designs which have the pivot much lower (look at GT LTS/STS linkage for a good example. The STS/LTS by the way, has fenomenal traction, better than my 5-spot: it is glued to the ground uphill ... but the shocks are different .. so you go again: which one is which).

    Very (very!) roughly speaking, Flux, and antecedent similars, are much closer to ITC with the pivot closer to the rear axle. It a design pioneered in the USA by Ellsworth, and very popular in Europe for 3-4" travel rear suspension.

    To tell the difference in performance between a true Horst or Horst/ITC or faux 4-bar takes a lot of work, which by itself tells you that these designs (especially when coupled with a modern superior suspension) will work in real life very similarly. But the faux 4-bar (or others DW-link VPP) don't have a weak spot right on the chain-stay.

    This is the point that people in the know (starting from Sherwood at Ventana - ending with http://www.dreambike.com/home.htm) made for years. Nice to notice that Tcheese and Bikezilla are finally realizing it now that daddy says so
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  15. #15
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    I got an Email from Turner which said that they will be shipping Horst bikes until the end of the year (Dec. '05). So if you want the HL get it before it is gone!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    To tell the difference in performance between a true Horst or Horst/ITC or faux 4-bar takes a lot of work, which by itself tells you that these designs (especially when coupled with a modern superior suspension) will work in real life very similarly. But the faux 4-bar (or others DW-link VPP) don't have a weak spot right on the chain-stay.
    True, but the entire reason we bought turners was that they use bushings, which eliminates the "weak spot".
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by be350ka
    I got an Email from Turner which said that they will be shipping Horst bikes until the end of the year (Dec. '05).
    Hmmm....Something about that seems less than arbitrary. When was the last time a manufacturer's model year coincided perfectly with the calender year?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  18. #18
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    Maybe / Nicolai / Ventana 29" El Capitan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    True, but the entire reason we bought turners was that they use bushings, which eliminates the "weak spot".
    Maybe ... a good bearing would do as well (Titus are famous for the rear rigidity), and Intense and others had downhill Horsts (with bearings of course). This is even more academical than discussions on linkages (which do differ!): well executed bushing or bearing will perform identically for all practical purposes on a 3-6" bike.

    However, the easy forecast is that nobody will be using bushings in the future. Bushings are now left only to Turner .. and Nicolai, which being a serious operation gives you the option, at least until last year, of bushings or bearings in their cross-country/all-mountain models.

    Oh and for Miles E: Ventana has been in production with El Capitan
    29" frame for a while: http://ventanausa.com/frame_elcapitan.html
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    Last edited by Davide; 10-01-2005 at 12:24 PM.

  19. #19
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    chowdahead's origin post is a pathetic underhanded blackmail post. what a raging d!ck.

    say chowdahead, did you ride any of the '06 Turners that you so quickly dismiss?

    d!ck, I tell you. d!ck.
    Last edited by gonzostrike; 10-01-2005 at 12:10 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    No more horst link on the back, the new TNT turners are like the ventanas where the rear pivot point is now above the axle. This means the suspension will stiffen up under braking more (brake squat) and the pedaling will be a little less efficiant overall.
    THEORETICALLY, you mean. THEORETICALLY.

    armchair engineers need to stop posting pseudo-knowledge as fact.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot
    Dave, please forgive me for moving on, and I’ll be sure to forgive you for TNT.
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    chowdahead's origin post is a pathetic underhanded blackmail post. what a raging d!ck.

    say chowdahead, did you ride any of the '06 Turners that you so quickly dismiss?

    d!ck, I tell you. d!ck.
    You said what I was thinking earlier! He obviously swallowed the Horst Link pill too. Come on, there's nothing wrong with TNT. It might only be a simple "Faux Bar" but then that derogatory term was only invented by HL evangelists to make their supposedly superior design look even better.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    a good bearing would do as well (Titus are famous for the rear rigidity), and Intense and others had downhill Horsts (with bearings of course). This is even more academical than discussions on linkages (which do differ!): well executed bushing or bearing will perform identically for all practical purposes on a 3-6" bike.
    Absolutely not! I owned a switchblade for 1 year; I had to replace the bearings in the rockers every 3 months or so. Seemed like every time I checked them they were seized/crunchy. The bike was stiff, but nowhere near as stiff as my turner which as 1.5" more travel and has required a total of 15 minutes of pivot maintenance over 2 seasons of riding.

    a 5.5" carbon FS frame? Man i would lose sleep at night wondering when the head tube would fail! what do the bearings press into? what about chainsuck? what kind of bonded carbon/alu headtube is going to withstand repeated nose-heavy drops with a 160mm fork? Not for me thanks.

    As for showdapilots post, pretty pathetic.

    way too much *****ing and not enough riding going on around here.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenskin
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.
    Sorry to offend so many of you, I was simply telling it as I see it.

    As for getting a life, you're all very right, we're only talking about bikes here, not war, world hunger etc. For you to call me an f-ing diq, or anything else only shows how passionate you are about this topic.

    For me, I'm simply not interested in TNT. However, 5 years from now when I decide to upgrade from my 6pack, I'll be sure to weigh all options. That being said, if I was to purchase a bike today, I would not be tempted by a TNT pack.

    Again, sorry if I offended anyone. Please forgive my honesty, and though many of you may think I'm a "freak", I do not hold any hostility against any of your for your thoughts. In the end, we're only talking about fusking bikes right?

  25. #25
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    Thanks for the...

    Quote Originally Posted by greenskin
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.
    Jeez--thanks for the many great years---David, please forgive me...

    I usually don't get too riled up over anything I read on this forum, but the original poster is so full of sh!t I had to say something. As far as I'm concerned, DTs reputation is still very much intact. Whatever direction he's taking his company, you can be sure, has been well thought out and his final products will still be typical Turner product--finely crafted, superbly riding bikes. Different doesn't mean inferior. TNT? Bring it on, I want to ride one!

  26. #26
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    DW ibis=sweet

    Castanello is a fruitcake,that's why it's got DW suspension
    The important thing is that Scot Nicol is back at Ibis.I'm nor sure of the guy's name, but an ex SC employee talked Scot into re starting Ibis with him

    The ibis was the coolest thing i saw at IB but i don't think i fall into the full carbon bike catagory,i hope i don't destroy the 575.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Maybe ... a good bearing would do as well (Titus are famous for the rear rigidity), and Intense and others had downhill Horsts (with bearings of course).
    You completely missed the point. FSR/Horst link designs are inherently more flexy, that is a fact and has been known for a long time. Hence why Ventana doesn't use this linkage arrangement. To counter this, Turner used bushings, which made it one of the only viable horst link bikes for us that like the better braking and pedaling traits.

    I've never heard that Titus bikes are "famous" for their rigidity, although the first ride of a bike is no indicator of what the rigidity will be 6 months to a year down the road. That is the real test.

    Could some special needle or angular contact bearing work in this situation? Sure, but it's added weight and complexity that's not needed. The bushing fits the description perfectly, limited rotation, rigidity(big point), can be serviced (purged)without disassembly...

    So the point was, if we wanted a horst link bike because we liked the braking and pedaling traits of that design, and we wanted a stiff rear end, we bought a turner.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    THEORETICALLY, you mean. THEORETICALLY.

    Sorry, brake caliper rotation is real, not a theory. IC/CC is also real, not a theory. Read more.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot
    For me, I'm simply not interested in TNT. However, 5 years from now when I decide to upgrade from my 6pack, I'll be sure to weigh all options. That being said, if I was to purchase a bike today, I would not be tempted by a TNT pack.
    Why not? You obviously liked your HL Turner. What makes you think the TNT version will be worse? Oh sorry, you believed the Turner was only good because it had a HL. Oh dear.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Why not? You obviously liked your HL Turner. What makes you think the TNT version will be worse? Oh sorry, you believed the Turner was only good because it had a HL. Oh dear.
    Before saying that, why don't you go try a bunch of 6" travel SP bikes, and see how they brake compared to the HL 6 pack. No matter how much people want it to be true, there's no way that DT can make up for this deficiancy with the "new" bikes unless he moves to installing a floating brake on the bike. I won't even get into the pedaling, but yes, there is no doubt that it will brake worse, and for those of us that carefully selected the 6 pack because of it's good braking and pedaling characteristics, there is no doubt that the TNT version will be worse, because DT can't change the laws of physics, caliper rotation, etc...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  31. #31
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    Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You completely missed the point. FSR/Horst link designs are inherently more flexy, that is a fact and has been known for a long time. Hence why Ventana doesn't use this linkage arrangement. To counter this, Turner used bushings, which made it one of the only viable horst link bikes for us that like the better braking and pedaling traits.

    So the point was, if we wanted a horst link bike because we liked the braking and pedaling traits of that design, and we wanted a stiff rear end, we bought a turner.
    No, we simply disagree on one point. Yes, a Horst is inherently weaker.

    BUT, the theory that bushings will make a viable Horst link, and bearings will not, sounds very new to me ... never heard of this, where does it come from, the little I read around in publications does not seem to indicate this... maybe it is just a theory? (we have "Intelligent Design", http://www.newyorker.com/shouts/cont...50926sh_shouts , why not "Intelligent Bushings")

    A bit more seriously: If somebody has numbers comparing the rigidity or the chainstays of Titus, Intense (pre-VPP of course), Turner, Ellsworth, GT and Nicolai with and without bushings, among others, we can talk otherwise ... it is a bit of a waste of time ... both systems work.

    But if you want to say that bearings don't work it is fine with me ... no problema

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    But if you want to say that bearings don't work it is fine with me ... no problema
    I didn't say that. You must learn to read.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com
    Castanello is a fruitcake,that's why it's got DW suspension
    The important thing is that Scot Nicol is back at Ibis.I'm nor sure of the guy's name, but an ex SC employee talked Scot into re starting Ibis with him

    The ibis was the coolest thing i saw at IB but i don't think i fall into the full carbon bike catagory,i hope i don't destroy the 575.


    Are you now riding a 575? Or just wondering about the carbon link?

  34. #34
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    real world comparison

    I can't believe I'm getting in on this slugfest, but here goes.

    I've ridden my pal's 5 spot a couple of times. I've also ridden the Moment. Coming from a Blur, I am highly impressed with the 5spot and Moment's ability to pedal through anything. I was more partial to the 5spot because I've always wanted a Turner and don't feel like I need the beef and bulk of the Moment. The performed equally well. The longer travel on the Moment was nice, but still I was for the Turner. I rode an '06 5 spot at Bootleg Canyon and though it is still a nice ride, I did notice a different. I noticed the "squat" under hard braking. I didn't notice a difference in pedalling efficiency. It is sandy out there and I attributed any sluggishness to that.
    I thought a little brake squat ain't that bad. After all, I'm on a Blur and "squat" is better than "jack" (back end wants to "jack-up" under hard braking). I talked it over with a friend who knows infinately more about rear suspension than I and who sells a lot of Turners. He said, "sure, the new design ain't that bad, but why spend the money on a Turner when you can get a Kona that'll do the same thing?"
    I'm scrapin' up all the cash I can to get an '05 Turner before they're gone... Or maybe I'll wait forthe Ibis

    Let the flaming begin.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    He said, "sure, the new design ain't that bad, but why spend the money on a Turner when you can get a Kona that'll do the same thing?"
    I'm scrapin' up all the cash I can to get an '05 Turner before they're gone... Or maybe I'll wait forthe Ibis.

    Why scrape up all that cash for an '05 Turner when you can get a Specialized that'll do the same thing?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    Why scrape up all that cash for an '05 Turner when you can get a Specialized that'll do the same thing?
    1. As a Turner dealer I get employee purchase pricing.
    2. Even I know enough about rear suspension to know that the different linkage will perform differently. The Kona Dawg series has the same (or at least very similar linkage) as the 2006 Turner. Turner has bushings, Dawg has bearings. The Specialized Stumpjumper (or any other Specialized) linkage is nothing like the Turner's. It will not perform the same. In fact, I rode an Epic Brain when it first came out and I thought it rode like dookie.

    That's why I'll scrape up the cash for an '05 Turner.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    I talked it over with a friend who knows infinately more about rear suspension than I and who sells a lot of Turners. He said, "sure, the new design ain't that bad, but why spend the money on a Turner when you can get a Kona that'll do the same thing?"
    My girlfriend and I went to the Turner Demo today in Fontana. She's been riding a Kona Kikapu for the last year. Today she tried a Five Spot and a Flux. She brought her Kona with her so she could ride it on the same trails as the Turners back to back. She was amazed by how much better she liked the Turners. On a number of occasions, she surprised herself by easily cleaning some technical sections on the Turners she had difficulty with on the Kona. She said she felt much more confident on the Turners and had a huge smile on her face the whole time she was riding them.

    To equate Turners to Konas simply because they share a pivot location is foolish.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkullCrack

    To equate Turners to Konas simply because they share a pivot location is foolish.
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  39. #39
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    Speaking of Placebo effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    My Apologizes.. The DawgMatic and 5 Spot are Soooo dissimilar. How could I have been so foolish???

    5 Spot
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23"
    Chain Stay 16.9"

    Dawg Matic
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23.1" (that 1/10 of an inch could make a BIG difference in the handling of this bike)
    Chain Stay 17.1"

    Was your girl riding an Explosiv SkullCrack? I could see where she'd notice a difference there.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    Yeah, that's it.

    For it to be the placebo effect, the patient has to believe the treatment he/she is taking will be effective. That was not the case with my girlfriend's experience today. Quite the opposite. Going in, she was doubtful the bike would even fit as she is on the shorter side and didn't think the small Spot would be small enough.

    While she knows that I like my Turners, she didn't hold the belief that she was going to get on one and have some kind of epiphany (can I still use that word in this forum?). Her good experience today was a surprise to her, not a confirmation.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    My Apologizes.. The DawgMatic and 5 Spot are Soooo dissimilar. How could I have been so foolish???

    5 Spot
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23"
    Chain Stay 16.9"

    Dawg Matic
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23.1" (that 1/10 of an inch could make a BIG difference in the handling of this bike)
    Chain Stay 17.1"

    Was your girl riding an Explosiv SkullCrack? I could see where she'd notice a difference there.
    Her Kona is a 04 Kikapu Deluxe.


  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkullCrack
    Her Kona is a 04 Kikapu Deluxe.

    Hmmm 4" travel bike, slacker head tube, steepre seat tube... did it have a llonger top tube than the Kikapu?

    What I'm getting at is Kona makes a great bike, Turner makes a great bike and Horst Link ICT is the sh!t. I'm accomplished enough that the suspension design is not gonna be the deciding factor as to whether I can clean a technical section or not. The deciding factor is the rider. I've ridden the 2005 and 2006 5 Spot BEFORE I read all of the BS on this forum. My decision is based on experience (yes, I've ridden the Dawg too.)
    Now, If you'll excuse me, I've got to get some rest so I can get up early and ride my VPP bike on some Santa Cruz single track tomorrow

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    Hmmm 4" travel bike, slacker head tube, steepre seat tube... did it have a llonger top tube than the Kikapu?

    What I'm getting at is Kona makes a great bike, Turner makes a great bike and Horst Link ICT is the sh!t. I'm accomplished enough that the suspension design is not gonna be the deciding factor as to whether I can clean a technical section or not. The deciding factor is the rider. I've ridden the 2005 and 2006 5 Spot BEFORE I read all of the BS on this forum. My decision is based on experience (yes, I've ridden the Dawg too.)
    Now, If you'll excuse me, I've got to get some rest so I can get up early and ride my VPP bike on some Santa Cruz single track tomorrow
    I'm sorry about the "foolish" comment. I never meant to imply that Kona doesn't make a great bike. My girlfriend has been very happy with hers. I was just trying to point out that there's more to what makes a Turner ride the way it does than just the Horst Link.

    I also didn't mean it was the suspension design that allowed my girlfriend to clean those sections. She said it was because she felt more confident on the Turner.

    Have a good ride! I have some friends up there who have told me how great the riding is. I gotta make it up there one of these days.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Before saying that, why don't you go try a bunch of 6" travel SP bikes, and see how they brake compared to the HL 6 pack. .
    But to be a fair comparison shouldn't all those bikes have the exact same pivot location and chain stay length? If not arent they all completly different systems that will all have different characteristics?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    The Specialized Stumpjumper (or any other Specialized) linkage is nothing like the Turner's. It will not perform the same. In fact, I rode an Epic Brain when it first came out and I thought it rode like dookie.
    Please enlighten us how the Specialized linkage is different. Turner has bushings, Specialized has bearings. Other than that, sounds exactly the same. And please don't throw in the Brain again, that was embarassing.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.

    I love how the placebo effect applies to the "defend Turner at all costs" zealots, but doesn't apply to the "a faux bar can't possibly perform as good as a horst" zealots. It's like watching twins fight - great stuff.

  47. #47
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    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish (Duglas Adams)

    Sadly, this is the situation.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    I love how the placebo effect applies to the "defend Turner at all costs" zealots, but doesn't apply to the "a faux bar can't possibly perform as good as a horst" zealots. It's like watching twins fight - great stuff.
    Obviously it does, because those of us that bought the turner for the horst link did carefull research and have lots of time on both kinds of bikes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I didn't say that. You must learn to read.
    And why being so litigious? I am just to be conciliatory here, ok?

    All I am trying to say is that I never seen any numbers indicating that bushings work better than bearings in terms of rigidity. But I not going to argue with those people, maybe not you in particular, that claim otherwise. although my impression is that this is another one of those slighlty mithological "Facts" spread around Turner-bikes ...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    All I am trying to say is that I never seen any numbers indicating that bushings work better than bearings in terms of rigidity.
    Please, stop while you are behind.

    Anyone that is vaguely familier with engineering or aerospace would know there are literally thousands of types of bearings out there, many different kinds, many different ways that they contact and distribute load. A blanket statement "bearings are better" or "bushings are better" is just utterly rediculous. You want lateral rigidity in a bearing that will be on the suspension pivots on a bike? You have a few options, some needle bearings, which are hard to design into small places and need very good tolerances, or how about some nice angular contact or roller bearings? Then the weight and complexity go up. Think about a bushing, think about the surface area that the load is distributed on, think about trying to flex a bushing compared to a bearing and it's interface. Remember, I have never said, nor am I saying, that one is better than the other, but in the suspension pivot, the bushing lends itself very well.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  51. #51
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    From my experience, the best combination of low friction and rigidity in this type of application comes from needle roller bearings, although you rarely see these used on mountain bike pivots. The bushing principle is fine, although you will inherently have more stiction than a rolling element bearing.

    I'd say it's another popular Turner myth that bushings are inherently better than well designed bearings. The classic argument usually goes along the lines that bearings are only designed to spin. Complete rubbish I'm afraid. In reality you can make either bushes or rolling element bearings work fine, it's just a matter of choosing the right ones.

  52. #52
    FM
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    whats rubbish was my "sealed" (really just shielded) bearings after a winter of muddy rainy PNW night riding. (on both titus and SC frames I owned). So it's no wonder many people believe bushings to be better. The bushings on my turner have required almost no maintenance and are still as stiff as the day I bought the bike, after 2 seasons.

    turner went with needle bearings for the high-line, should be cool.

    I would not buy another bike with standard sealed bearings (ala santa cruz), just too much maintenance in wet conditions.



    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I'd say it's another popular Turner myth that bushings are inherently better than well designed bearings. The classic argument usually goes along the lines that bearings are only designed to spin. Complete rubbish I'm afraid. In reality you can make either bushes or rolling element bearings work fine, it's just a matter of choosing the right ones.
    Last edited by FM; 10-02-2005 at 11:53 AM.

  53. #53
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    SNT (Stiction neutralizing Technology) FROM TURNER CDC

    ok, let's test the sense of humor around here (very little in some quarters): ... just downloaded from the Turner Site!!!


    <center>SNT COMING SOON FROM TURNER CDC

    The biggest tactile difference between the old Bushings and new SNT (Stiction Neutralizing Technology), is the dicrease in stiction as the suspension compresses. Through actual riding we have found this to be unperceivable in all conditions. Under ultimate traction situations there is a calculated increased suppleness of the rear suspension, especially when equipped with TNT. Although this is completely un-felt, and nobody can tell the difference at all, it can have a stabilizing effect. Watch carefully the photo and you will see that our new SNT bearings work exactly in the same way of the old bushing, although they wabble a lot. Oh, sorry we just contraddicted ourselves. We meant: they work better and you don't feel the difference.

    You will be able to purchase the new improved SNT (and TNT!) on-line. Thank you in advance for your uncompromising support!!!

    We also provide medical assistance for our Brand obsessed supporters having a hard time adjusting to this wonderful changes, please check in at: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/Articl...?ArticleID=201
    Last edited by Davide; 10-02-2005 at 02:37 PM.

  54. #54
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    Yawn. Yeah, troll, go on, make fool of yourself.

    //

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    A blanket statement "bearings are better" or "bushings are better" is just utterly rediculous. You want lateral rigidity in a bearing that will be on the suspension pivots on a bike? You have a few options, some needle bearings, which are hard to design into small places and need very good tolerances, or how about some nice angular contact or roller bearings? Then the weight and complexity go up. . Remember, I have never said, nor am I saying, that one is better than the other, but in the suspension pivot, the bushing lends itself very well.
    So good it seems we are saying the same thing: there is no best system. By the way I owned them all: bushings, bearings and needle bearings.
    Last edited by Davide; 10-02-2005 at 01:53 PM.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    ... just downloaded from the Turner Site!!!


    <center>SNT COMING SOON FROM TURNER CDC

    The biggest tactile difference between the old Bushings and new SNT (Stiction Neutralizing Technology), is the dicrease in stiction as the suspension compresses. Through actual riding we have found this to be unperceivable in all conditions. Under ultimate traction situations there is a calculated increased suppleness of the rear suspension, especially when equipped with TNT. Although this is completely un-felt, and nobody can tell the difference at all, it can have a stabilizing effect. Watch carefully the photo and you will see that our new SNT bearings work exactly in the same way of the old bushing, although they wabble a lot. Oh, sorry we just contraddicted ourselves. We meant: they work better and you don't feel the difference.

    You will be able to purchase the new improved SNT (and TNT!) on-line. Thank you in advance for your uncompromising support!!!

    We also provide medical assistance for our Brand obsessed supporters having a hard time adjusting to this wonderful changes, please check in at: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/Articl...?ArticleID=201
    ....if a tree falls in the woods.....& it's on everyone's ignore list...does it really make a sound? <img>
    </center>


  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    From my experience, the best combination of low friction and rigidity in this type of application comes from needle roller bearings
    Well, low friction isn't really needed because the rear suspension of a mountain bike is under a lot of leverage, which means that 300-600lb (and even more) forces are causing the suspension to compress, and the miniscule amount of friction in a bushing will be undetectable.

    I'd say that needle bearings can be better, but a bushing with a greaseport offers as much more lateral rigidity, and is lighter/much easier to build into small places. Needle bearings work fairly good for large main pivots, and I've had a few single pivot bikes with this arrangement in the main pivot.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  58. #58
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    It does if you quote the bloody thing
    I haven't fallen off, I'm just having a rest.

  59. #59
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    Hmmm....

    I believe that Titus uses a bushing in the dropout/chainstay pivot, though it doesn't have a grease port like the Turner design does.

    And I'll take a a Horst link design over a linkage driven single pivot anyday, braking on rough steep terrain is when I really need the supple travel.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Obviously it does, because those of us that bought the turner for the horst link did carefull research and have lots of time on both kinds of bikes.
    What you don't have is lots of time on both, the before and after Turner, so you are extrapolating your apples and oranges.
    Again the lumping in of all FB's as if they ride exactly the same, yet no one believes all Horsts ride exactly the same.

  61. #61
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    I'll finally add

    Quote Originally Posted by SkullCrack
    My girlfriend and I went to the Turner Demo today in Fontana. She's been riding a Kona Kikapu for the last year. Today she tried a Five Spot and a Flux. She brought her Kona with her so she could ride it on the same trails as the Turners back to back. She was amazed by how much better she liked the Turners. On a number of occasions, she surprised herself by easily cleaning some technical sections on the Turners she had difficulty with on the Kona. She said she felt much more confident on the Turners and had a huge smile on her face the whole time she was riding them.

    To equate Turners to Konas simply because they share a pivot location is foolish.
    The Kona thing......basically what Skull said. I'll add some.
    I sell Konas and have for a few years. I have logged miles on both the older 4 inch Dawg and the newer 5 inch travel Dawg series bikes, on our demo's on the same trails I ride my 5 Spot on.
    It only takes a few millimeters difference in pivot location to change the behavior of a suspension bike and notice it. From a distance the Kona Dawg Primo might look like the same bike, its not. Look closely at everything here, every pivot location is different as well as the shock length is even different for the 2 bikes. These differences add up to quite a different responding suspension from the 2 bikes. The Kona is not a bad bike by any means, infact it rides darn good. Its still not the same as my 5 Spot. The TNT link does not bring these bikes into the same realm at all, too many other factors going on with pivot locations, etc. I'm here to tell you from riding them both on my trails at my own pace, they are quite different bikes in the suspension department.
    Here look at these 2 pictures and do the scrutinizing yourself.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  62. #62
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    DGC,
    IMO both those bikes will ride like crap w/o cranks.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    It only takes a few millimeters difference in pivot location to change the behavior of a suspension bike and notice it.

    But isn't that the point? If what you say is true, then how do you think moving the pivot 3 inches from chain stay to seat stay will change the way a bike rides?

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ....if a tree falls in the woods.....& it's on everyone's ignore list...does it really make a sound? <img>
    </center>
    I think you mean;
    if a bear takes a dump in the woods, does anyone hear the little turd hit the dirt if it's on everyone's ignore list?

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveM
    And I'll take a a Horst link design over a linkage driven single pivot anyday, braking on rough steep terrain is when I really need the supple travel.
    From an engineering point of view I've always struggled to understand this popular comment. Can you explain why my linkage driven single pivot (Ventana X5) would suddenly "lock up" under braking? Because it doesn't seem to do this in real life and I'm hearing that neither does the TNT Turner.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by milroy
    But isn't that the point? If what you say is true, then how do you think moving the pivot 3 inches from chain stay to seat stay will change the way a bike rides?
    Moving the pivot as you describe certainly can change a bike's ride. Especially if it's just moved without consideration to impact.

    An intellegent, careful placement (with experimenting no doubt) should be able to bring performance back to the target. Point in case, ref Tscheezy's '04 and '05 575 dirt demo review. He and quite a few other people assert the sus felt very much like a 5 Spot. That's not to say the whole bike rode like a spot as there are tons of other geometry, fabrication and design factors, but the point is if the rear triangle sus performance can feel much like a 'Spot, DT should have a very good chance of doing the same thing for his own design. Considering only the pivot location has changed. Everything else is the same as the previous model, he only has one variable to compensate for.(possibly using other things to aid in the design)

    DT should know how to tune his own work better than anyone.

    Now if the arguement is that it's impossible because it's a CS pivot, I am in no position to argue that point. I can only say a lot of people have said their experience does not follow theory.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  67. #67
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    The dreaded "Brake Jack" that is so talked about comes from the fact that you have the caliper gripping the rotor while the suspension is activating. The suspension's movement actually MOVES the caliper to a different position. The fact that the caliper is gripping the rotor means that the caliper is going to try to take the rotor with it, wherever it goes, thus taking the whole wheel with it... or it locks it into a position. The floating brake mechanism allow the caliper to rotate on it's own axis so it is isolated from the suspension's activity.
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  68. #68
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    From an engineering point of view I've always struggled to understand this popular comment. Can you explain why my linkage driven single pivot (Ventana X5) would suddenly "lock up" under braking? Because it doesn't seem to do this in real life and I'm hearing that neither does the TNT Turner.
    Well, no bike "suddenly" "locks up", it's the suspension compressing, and because of this, it feels much stiffer and harsher. It's not "sudden" though. You probably don't know what you are looking for, and simply don't know what you are missing. This isn't an insult, there are plenty of places across the board where people are plenty happy with what they have, and have not tried something "better", so they have no idea about what could be different. To be blatent, if you don't know how it could be better, you aren't going to notice the "trait" in the first place. Take the people that ride SSV marzocchis like Jr Ts, untill they tried a Super T, they thought they had the plushest fork ever made, at least it seemed that way in their perspective. Take a rider on a high pivot SP bike like an old K2 evo or SC, they thought their bike was fine and they didn't notice any bad traits, untill they tried something better. In the same line of thought, just because you don't comprehend the next level of performance (and again, this isn't an insult, just a observation I've noticed in the long run) doesn't mean that it won't benefit you. I have experienced many low pivot SP bikes, and it doesn't matter where the pivot is really, they are going to all have very similer braking traits. The only way to erase some of these traits is to have the caliper NOT rotate when the suspension is rotating, and the only way for this is a floating brake or horst link rear end.

    This effect seems to be magnified by the travel, more travel = more noticable brake squat/stiffening. This seems to just be from the fact that a smaller travel bike has less travel to work with, it's already going to be "pretty stiff" compared to a longer travel bike. On the longer travel bike, the difference in rough choppy stuff between "brakes on" and "brakes off" seems greater, at least in what I've experienced. Again, this trait may not apply to your riding style, or even bike, depending on several factors. If you want to test it out, find a bike with the same amount of travel as your bike that is a horst link, find the nastiest and roughest downhill section you can, and just practice picking up speed and then braking real fast, try it on both bikes. If you still can't percieve a difference, then lucky you. For some of us this is an issue and one of the reasons we bought these bikes.
    Again, there are those of us that picked the Turner for these specific reasons, and the fact that it was the frame that combined most of the traits we were looking for in one bike. I don't have any obligation to Turner, and if I get a frame in the near future I'll most definitely be considering other bikes because I like the braking performance of the horst link.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Well, no bike "suddenly" "locks up", it's the suspension compressing, and because of this, it feels much stiffer and harsher. It's not "sudden" though. You probably don't know what you are looking for, and simply don't know what you are missing. This isn't an insult, there are plenty of places across the board where people are plenty happy with what they have, and have not tried something "better", so they have no idea about what could be different. To be blatent, if you don't know how it could be better, you aren't going to notice the "trait" in the first place. Take the people that ride SSV marzocchis like Jr Ts, untill they tried a Super T, they thought they had the plushest fork ever made, at least it seemed that way in their perspective. Take a rider on a high pivot SP bike like an old K2 evo or SC, they thought their bike was fine and they didn't notice any bad traits, untill they tried something better. In the same line of thought, just because you don't comprehend the next level of performance (and again, this isn't an insult, just a observation I've noticed in the long run) doesn't mean that it won't benefit you. I have experienced many low pivot SP bikes, and it doesn't matter where the pivot is really, they are going to all have very similer braking traits. The only way to erase some of these traits is to have the caliper NOT rotate when the suspension is rotating, and the only way for this is a floating brake or horst link rear end.

    This effect seems to be magnified by the travel, more travel = more noticable brake squat/stiffening. This seems to just be from the fact that a smaller travel bike has less travel to work with, it's already going to be "pretty stiff" compared to a longer travel bike. On the longer travel bike, the difference in rough choppy stuff between "brakes on" and "brakes off" seems greater, at least in what I've experienced. Again, this trait may not apply to your riding style, or even bike, depending on several factors. If you want to test it out, find a bike with the same amount of travel as your bike that is a horst link, find the nastiest and roughest downhill section you can, and just practice picking up speed and then braking real fast, try it on both bikes. If you still can't percieve a difference, then lucky you. For some of us this is an issue and one of the reasons we bought these bikes.
    Again, there are those of us that picked the Turner for these specific reasons, and the fact that it was the frame that combined most of the traits we were looking for in one bike. I don't have any obligation to Turner, and if I get a frame in the near future I'll most definitely be considering other bikes because I like the braking performance of the horst link.
    I know what you're trying to say, I just don't think the secondary effect of brake torque on the rear suspension is significant compared to the forward load transfer involved. How much braking torque are you actually putting through the rear wheel in this scenario? Have you actually calculated how much it will compress the suspension? What is the difference in this compression between a Horst Link and a SP. Why doesn't Steve Peat run a floating rear caliper on his SP DH bike? Perhaps the Turner brakes very well over rough ground for reasons other than its Horst Link? I guess the TNT bikes will answer this question in due course. Or maybe I'm just wrong.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    I have to admit that whether the Horst link is horse sh!t or not, I like my Turner partly because of the placebo effect that the Horst link gives me. Just knowing I have a Horst, even if I am totally unaware of any real or unreal impact it has on performance, gives me a rush. Yea, totally irrational, but real. I like having a Horst link bike. I like thinking it makes a difference, even if it doesn't. I like being different than all the faux bikes. I don't even care if this is rational or not. Hell, this whole damn sport is irrational. Hell, I am such a techno weenie dweeb, I couldn't tell the difference between most components, good or bad. I just like having Horst, or Horst sh!t.
    I AM JUST A JERK

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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    1. As a Turner dealer I get employee purchase pricing.
    2. Even I know enough about rear suspension to know that the different linkage will perform differently. The Kona Dawg series has the same (or at least very similar linkage) as the 2006 Turner. Turner has bushings, Dawg has bearings. The Specialized Stumpjumper (or any other Specialized) linkage is nothing like the Turner's. It will not perform the same. In fact, I rode an Epic Brain when it first came out and I thought it rode like dookie.

    That's why I'll scrape up the cash for an '05 Turner.
    Holy crap. Another one of those ultra biased Turner followers.

    I admit, Turners are nice bikes. I am thinking about getting one though (Flux), but calling the Epic a "dookie" is like calling your mom a ****.

    Have you ridden the newer epics? They are nowhere close to the 03 when it first came out. It is an awesome bike, but I thought it would be nice if I could get something a tad bit plusher, (and more unique) hence why I am thinking about getting the Flux.

  72. #72
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    Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I know what you're trying to say, I just don't think the secondary effect of brake torque on the rear suspension is significant compared to the forward load transfer involved. How much braking torque are you actually putting through the rear wheel in this scenario? Have you actually calculated how much it will compress the suspension? What is the difference in this compression between a Horst Link and a SP. Why doesn't Steve Peat run a floating rear caliper on his SP DH bike? Perhaps the Turner brakes very well over rough ground for reasons other than its Horst Link? I guess the TNT bikes will answer this question in due course. Or maybe I'm just wrong.
    I agree with you on this. Without actual data, then personal "feel" is the only way to detect brake jack. As Jayem said, some people may not notice it. However, some people may also think they notice it when they are constantly drilled with the "fact" that Horst link bikes are better under braking. As long as the rear brake is not locked, then there should be negligible influence on the rear suspension. Brake caliper rotation is real, but unless the brake is locked then the caliper can still move along the rotor, allowing the suspension to compress. Besides, even on a HL bike the caliper is rotating, just along a greater radius circle (the instant center point). As long as the caliper is rigidly attached to the same link as the rear axle, there will be some effect on braking, but it may be more noticeable on some bikes than others. Also, there is no such thing as "brake jack" when defined as rear suspension stiffening and extending under braking. Applying the rear brake alone cannot cause the suspension to extend, only to compress, which will result in stiffening because the suspension is now farther into its travel. A more likely cause for this is load transfer, which is highly dependant on the suspension geometry (for both HL or faux bar) and fork dive.

    Jayem has constantly nagged on the topic of brake jack in every thread relating to the new TNT design, arguing how TNT is theoretically inferior. Jayem, have you even ridden the new TNT bikes yet? All you ever talk about is how "physics says this" and "Horst-link that", but I have yet to see you post a ride report or your actual impressions from riding the new Turner bikes. Correct me if I am wrong, but you can't possibly say for sure that there will be a difference in braking and pedaling feel between the old and new bikes if you have not actually ridden them, and this goes for everyone else saying this same thing. Also I don't think you should compare non Turner SP bikes to the TNT bikes because there are many other factors (pivot placement does make a difference) than whether the bike has a horst link or not.

    I currently ride a 575, and I am very happy with the way this bike performs. I do not notice any braking effects on the rear suspension performance nor any poor pedaling performance. I have not ridden that many bikes, but from my experience I would say the 575 is probably the best working SP design out there, and if the new TNT bikes work as well, which I'm sure they will, then there is nothing to worry about. I used to have an LTS, and even though this bike had a HL it was not a good pedaling bike and braking performance was no better than my 575. I rented a 6-pack for a few hours at a local DH resort, and I will say that this bike was better for the terrain than my 575. However, this was not due to the HL, but more the fact that it had more travel, coil rear shock, longer fork, and slacker geometry. The loose, rocky terrain did not show any difference in braking between the two bikes, but I could go faster in some sections on the 6-pack due to the reasons given above.

    And for the record, I actually am a Mechanical Engineer and have thought about this stuff alot, both for my own bike buying decisions and class projects (I just graduated last year). The biggest problem with the whole HL topic is marketing. For the past 10 years, it has been marketed to everyone that the HL makes for a superior bike, and everyone takes this as fact. Specialized will tell you in their advertisements that their FSR bikes have a vertical rear axle path. When plotted, the axle path is far from vertical, it arcs almost as much as some SP bikes. The reality is that there is much more to the way a bike performs than whether it has a Horst link or not.

    ~Sorry for the rant, but I've been holding back on all these TNT discussions and needed to get that out.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMtnB44
    Correct me if I am wrong, but you can't possibly say for sure that there will be a difference in braking and pedaling feel between the old and new bikes if you have not actually ridden them
    I disagree, the braking part is very real, and it doesn't matter if you ride one or not, it's going to behave like my old diamondback, or rocky mountain, in terms of braking. There is no question about it, the dynamics involved are the same, as I've said, the ONLY way that this would be different would be with a floating brake, or a horst link (which acts like a semi-floating brake, not perfect, but far better than single pivot).

    As a single pivot, the TNT turner will brake like other single pivot bikes, because it's a single pivot.

    Pedaling on the other hand can be a little more subjective, the amount of chain extention designed into the system plays a big role, and in certain gear combos the TNT could pedal nearly the same, but if you read the threads about anti-squat tendancies, there is good evidence that it will pedal worse. Steve-JH-something or other has already scientifically disected the new design and has a pretty good write up on it. I wouldn't go into the pedaling too much (but several accounts of Gonzostrike saying the Horst Link is better are available in past posts made by him), because it gets highly technical, but I like that the Horst link brings two good characteristics together, pedaling performance and braking.

    Another perspective would be ABS. How many of you use ABS on your car every day? If you plotted it out, you'd be using it like .0000000001% of the time. Does that mean you don't need it or don't want it? Of course not. In the same sense, I want the better braking traits of the horst link for those rare occasions where it makes the difference between me being in control and being out of control and crashing.

    I can say for sure that the braking traits will be worse, it is inherent to the single pivot design. The pivot placement doesn't make a difference here.
    Last edited by Jayem; 10-03-2005 at 07:50 PM.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMtnB44

    I currently ride a 575, and I am very happy with the way this bike performs. I do not notice any braking effects on the rear suspension performance nor any poor pedaling performance.
    Like I said, whether or not the braking performance is important to you can definitely change perspective, and whether or not you actually encounter conditions where this would become apparenent are obviously not known.

    But, If you want to really test your 575 and figure out how much of the "performance" is the bike and how much may be attributed to the shock, go bolt on a good ole fox vanilla R. With very light low-speed compression damping, this will be a good indicator on if your bike is relying on a platform/air stiction/ etc. Make sure you test it in all 3 rings, because you are going to get different pedaling characteristics in the different rings.

    On a related note, the only test of the TNT bikes that I'd be interested in is one where two identically built bikes are used, one Horst Link and the other TNT, and when finished riding one bike the shock and fork are changed over, so that setup remains exactly the same.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMtnB44
    Brake caliper rotation is real, but unless the brake is locked then the caliper can still move along the rotor, allowing the suspension to compress. Besides, even on a HL bike the caliper is rotating, just along a greater radius circle (the instant center point). As long as the caliper is rigidly attached to the same link as the rear axle, there will be some effect on braking
    Address this. I have thought this for months in comparing my spot and the x-5.

    How often do you lock up your brakes on a descent?

    I think all this is speculation and bs. A BLIND test is the ONLY way to tell for sure if anyone can actually tell the difference. No offense jayem, but prove you can tell this with the bikes in question. (turner vs turner)

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    ... the only test of the TNT bikes that I'd be interested in is one where two identically built bikes are used, one Horst Link and the other TNT, and when finished riding one bike the shock and fork are changed over, so that setup remains exactly the same.
    It's starting to sound like the differences are so small that any component change would mask whatever difference existed.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  77. #77
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    ...the braking characterisitics that James is describing are, in fact, verifiably undeniable. However, there is an undefined variable in his logic that remains an ASSUMED ideal...& that is the ACTUAL, QUANTIFIABLE braking performance of the Horst link to begin with. I personally have owned several SP (HP & LP as well as four bar vs. swingarm) & Horst/ FSR design bikes over the last 10 years in particular (enough to have paid at least ONE of my mortgages <img>). IMHO, the Horst/ FSR designs I have ridden have DEFINITELY had some negative braking characteristics. Specifically I have owned 2 different Horst/ FSR DH bikes (even one made by the Co. that owns the FSR patent) & I could easily feel the rear stiffen under heavy braking. My point is, people are seemingly making comparisons with the impression that the Horst/ FSR is completely neutral with regard to brake induced feedback...which is just not the case (one could seemingly argue that tire selection, with regard to traction, is equally influential to brake performance!).

    In addition, SOME of the frames I have owned were better/ worse than others with comparable designs (Horst/ FSR).
    Bottom line? Unless someone produces real world data that substantiates the significant braking advantage of a Horst/ FSR over the linkage actuated low SP (with respect to the ideal...100% efficient braking), all you have is passionate rhetoric born out of marketing. IOW, it's like comparing liquid volumes...arguing that Horst has 10 ml MORE liquid than SP, but the ideal (100% efficient braking) is Lake Michigan. Think about it.


  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I disagree, the braking part is very real, and it doesn't matter if you ride one or not, it's going to behave like my old diamondback, or rocky mountain, in terms of braking. There is no question about it, the dynamics involved are the same, as I've said, the ONLY way that this would be different would be with a floating brake, or a horst link (which acts like a semi-floating brake, not perfect, but far better than single pivot).

    As a single pivot, the TNT turner will brake like other single pivot bikes, because it's a single pivot.

    I can say for sure that the braking traits will be worse, it is inherent to the single pivot design. The pivot placement doesn't make a difference here.
    I agree that the braking difference is real, but I'm saying its not enough of a difference to really make a noticeable difference. As long as the caliper is mounted to the same link as the rear axle (non floating), whether it be a single pivot or horst link, then braking will have a slight affect on the suspension. Why would one have more or less effect than the other? Because it is common belief that this is the purpose of the Horst link? In each case the brake force is in the same direction, and even if the brake is locked up it will not cause the suspension to become any less active. The only time you may notice a difference is at very slow speeds (say less than 2mph) where the brake force is close in magnitude to the other forces acting on the suspension, but at any reasonable speed, such as on a descent, the other forces acting the suspension will more than overcome any negetive forces from the braking.

    A good test for this effect that I just tried tonight is this. Let all the air out of your shock (or take the spring off). Push down on the rear, compressing the suspension somewhat, while both holding the bike still and while rolling it forward. Now repeat but hold the rear brake locked. Is there any difference? On my 575 there is not. You can see the caliper rotating too, and on my single pivot 575 it only moves about 3 degrees. Try this on your HL bike, you will see the caliper rotate somewhat as well. You will also notice that the wheelbase changes slightly as the suspension cycles, causing the unlocked wheel to roll. The fact that the wheel is rolling allows it to move freely with the suspension. This is only a static test, so it does not directly relate all the forces that are at work on the trail, but it gives you an idea of how the caliper rotation theory works, or possibly doesn't.

    Ok Jayem, it's your turn. You constantly talk about the inferior braking of an single pivot bike, so prove it. You must be an engineer or a physicist or something to fully understand all this theory, so you must be able to explain why a SP has worse braking than a horst link. In all your posts on the topic, you have never explained why this is the case, you just say it is a fact based on whatever crappy performing bike you rode in the past. So why don't you explain to everyone what the scientific reason is for the braking differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Like I said, whether or not the braking performance is important to you can definitely change perspective.
    Obviously braking performance is important to me, who wouldn't think so? Who buys a bike only for its pedaling characteristics? Everyone wants the best of everything, and downhilling is more fun than uphilling, so of course braking performance is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    But, If you want to really test your 575 and figure out how much of the "performance" is the bike and how much may be attributed to the shock, go bolt on a good ole fox vanilla R. With very light low-speed compression damping, this will be a good indicator on if your bike is relying on a platform/air stiction/ etc. Make sure you test it in all 3 rings, because you are going to get different pedaling characteristics in the different rings.
    First this test would only relate to pedaling, not braking. Also the 575 is not designed for a coil shock. Even with the RP3 in the least propedal setting, the bike pedals just as well as in the heavy setting under all conditions except for standing or hard sprinting, but any bike will do that. The 575 also pedals so much better than my old HL equipped LTS that there is no comparison, with or without platform shocks. If the HL is so superior in pedaling, then why do all HL bikes come with platform shocks on them? It is not always suspension design that causes bobbing, it is mostly rider weight shifing around while turning the cranks. A single pivot can, and used to be, designed to cancel this effect in the majority of gears, but the advent of platform damping now allows SP bikes to be more reactive to bumps while still pedaling well. A HL bike is always reactive to bumps, but without platform damping will bob significantly not from chain torque effects but rider weight movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    On a related note, the only test of the TNT bikes that I'd be interested in is one where two identically built bikes are used, one Horst Link and the other TNT, and when finished riding one bike the shock and fork are changed over, so that setup remains exactly the same.
    You are correct, this is the only way to really see if there is a difference. But until you, or ideally someone else since you are obvioulsy biased towards HL bikes, actually tests the bikes like this then we cannot know for sure. So stop saying the TNT bikes are inferior in braking until this test is actually performed. Like you have mentioned before, the braking issue is largely a personal feel anyway so even if you notice a difference, the majority of people may not. But that is up to them to decide, not you.

  79. #79
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    Originally Posted by greenskin
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.
    Sorry to offend so many of you, I was simply telling it as I see it.
    As for getting a life, you're all very right, we're only talking about bikes here, not war, world hunger etc. For you to call me an f-ing diq, or anything else only shows how passionate you are about this topic.

    For me, I'm simply not interested in TNT. However, 5 years from now when I decide to upgrade from my 6pack, I'll be sure to weigh all options. That being said, if I was to purchase a bike today, I would not be tempted by a TNT pack.

    Again, sorry if I offended anyone. Please forgive my honesty, and though many of you may think I'm a "freak", I do not hold any hostility against any of your for your thoughts. In the end, we're only talking about fusking bikes right?
    Don't be sorry for speaking your mind or sharing your opinion, the fact that you are now being targeted shows this is a backward step and those hurt by it most are justifying it and good on them for there loyalty, Id probably do the same inside I'd be pissed, I'm not blind though I may act it some times.
    I for one would feel the same if this happened to the bike brand of my choice which uses a four bar too. A backward step is a backward step put any spin on it you like, if it makes you feel good well great, I thought and believed when buying a boutique bike we pay the $$ for ultimate in construction design and refinement of the best technology, which I'd compare to Ferrari or Porsche, Aston Martin Bugati etc

    Lets be honest single pivots, DW, VPP, all ride well, shocks, forks now make a big difference and minimise the feeling of difference between the different technologies available today, but bottom line is TNT is a backward step, I for one wish DT had come up with something new Like Yeti did with the 303, tear me apart but Im with chowder on this I'm sure they will be good, but they wont be the Turner they once were because they aren't four bar which DT has stoutly promoted all these years they don't even look right to me, even specialised that probably have mre to do with this than many realise or want to believe, have stuck with the four bar even using new tech like the brain shock it still remains, if it makes you happy to have a cheaper bike if the costs go down good on ya, I like my bike being out of reach of most, again if everyone drove a Ferrari it would'nt be a Ferrari anymore now would it, it would be less take your shots, I can understand DT for making this move but I don't think its a good one or good for Turner in the long run time will tell, hope it goes well..
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    I'm glad it's not just me then! Yes, the rear caliper rotates slightly on my SP bike when I compress the suspension. So yes, the brake torque does have a slight tendency to compress the suspension. Do I think it's a significant amount compared to the lesser rotation of a Horst Link bike. NO!! I don't even think it's significant compared to a floating caliper, which probably explains why you rarely see them on SP trailbikes.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Sorry, brake caliper rotation is real, not a theory. IC/CC is also real, not a theory. Read more.
    "real"

    is different from

    "changes the ride"

    but I know it's impossible to tell YOU anything, since YOU know ALL.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I'm glad it's not just me then! Yes, the rear caliper rotates slightly on my SP bike when I compress the suspension. So yes, the brake torque does have a slight tendency to compress the suspension. Do I think it's a significant amount compared to the lesser rotation of a Horst Link bike. NO!! I don't even think it's significant compared to a floating caliper, which probably explains why you rarely see them on SP trailbikes.
    the easiest way to avoid the "brake jack" that everyone's so paranoid about?

    choose a smart place to apply the rear brake.

    in all the SP bikes I've owned, I've never been bothered by "brake jack" - Ells Isis, SC Bullit, Ventana X5, Banshee Scream. NONE.

    brake chatter? mild, if you try to brake where the terrain's crap. so brake where it's not.

    a good rider can deal with this. it reminds me of people's arguments against the old SRAM twist shifters: "but you can't brake and shift at the same time!"

    my reply: get in the right gear before you apply the brakes, and problem solved!

    too many people create their own problems.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    but bottom line is TNT is a backward step, I for one wish DT had come up with something new Like Yeti did with the 303, tear me apart but Im with chowder on this I'm sure they will be good, but they wont be the Turner they once were because they aren't four bar

    SHEER CONJECTURE. tell us how many TNT '06 Turners you rode and discovered that they aren't "what they once were".

    if you did actually ride an '06 TNT model,

    explain EXACTLY how you concluded it's not "what it once was."

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    but bottom line is TNT is a backward step
    ...for the marketing department.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    I thought and believed when buying a boutique bike we pay the $$ for ultimate in construction design and refinement of the best technology, which I'd compare to Ferrari or Porsche, Aston Martin Bugati etc

    I like my bike being out of reach of most, again if everyone drove a Ferrari it would'nt be a Ferrari anymore now would it, it would be less take your shots, I can understand DT for making this move but I don't think its a good one or good for Turner in the long run time will tell, hope it goes well..
    Wow, is english your first language? Try using a period.

    TA is just another ell$worth troll. Who would have seen that coming?

    I would venture a guess that not even half of the Turner owners who are unhappy with the new design (for no other reason than pure conjecture, I might add) would even look at an ell$worth as a Turner replacement.

    And as for your bike being out of reach of most, it seems high cost is your primary reason for wanting to ride ell$worth. Good for you. I will take Turner quality, customer service and pure performance over that any day.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike

    brake chatter? mild, if you try to brake where the terrain's crap. so brake where it's not.
    Exactly. I don't want to be held back by this limitation, and it is one reason that I bought a turner. It's good that you can choose where to brake, but again, if we could all choose exactly where and when to brake, we wouldn't have much need of things like ABS, because we just "don't use them" much.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Exactly. I don't want to be held back by this limitation, and it is one reason that I bought a turner. It's good that you can choose where to brake, but again, if we could all choose exactly where and when to brake, we wouldn't have much need of things like ABS, because we just "don't use them" much.
    I don't think there's much value in comparing ABS with a Horst Link. Unless you're going to tell me that a Horst Link provides ABS too?

  88. #88
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    Multi-link can produce "ABS"

    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I don't think there's much value in comparing ABS with a Horst Link. Unless you're going to tell me that a Horst Link provides ABS too?
    A multi-link brake tensions the frame much like a monopivot in the same place as the IC is of the floater.

    When the IC moves significantly during bump travel from a forward postion near the front wheel then rearward under the COM during compresion (and in a forward direction during rebound), then the compression stiffening and relaxation of the spring preload from brake torque produces a complementary reaction to bumps. This produces more compression reactivity or rear spring preloading when compressing on a bump while there is high traction, and digressive unloading the spring during rebound. This complements bump tracking, helping the suspension lift over bumps and extend during rebound on the backside of bumps.

    "ABS" stands for "Automatic Bump Sensitivity" in this case.

    But on a flat smooth surface there is no transition effect from an "ABS" design other than very mild digressive rear spring unloading during weight shift extension. Multi-links have no advantage on smooth flat surfaces, and can produce undesirable effects by too much extension tension and "pro-dive".

    - ray

  89. #89
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    Word from god

    Hello?
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Hello?
    Doesn't god ride a vpp?

  91. #91
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    No.....sorry, this thing is too much fun!
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Doesn't god ride a vpp?
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    Last edited by FM; 10-04-2005 at 02:25 PM.

  92. #92
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    Who cares what dog rides

    I wanna know what this guy rides!
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  93. #93
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    Well...

    I've only had basic college engineering, (statics, dynamics, strength of materials), so I'll leave the technical arguement to those more qualified. I rode a '99 FSR Enduro for two years, then an '01Bullit for two, and am now on an '03 FSR Enduro. Under hard rear braking, the single pivot Bullit would chatter and skip like a hardtale, and on the same trails, same rider, same braking, the Horst link FSR Enduro feels like it has its full 5+ inches of supple travel.

    So, it works for me, though I know that I brake hard on steep terrain. I would have also like to have tried a floating brake on the Bullit, but I didn't get a chance.

  94. #94
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    Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Sorry, brake caliper rotation is real, not a theory. IC/CC is also real, not a theory. Read more.
    Man, if your brake caliper is rotating, you've got bigger troubles than which stay your rear pivot is on! The rotor rotates!!!!!

    (tongue firmly in cheek)

  95. #95
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    Take your single pivot bike.

    Look at the brake.

    Remove the spring on the rear shock and cycle the suspension.

    Now notice that the brake caliper has rotated clockwise.

    End.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  96. #96
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    Yup, yup!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Take your single pivot bike.

    Look at the brake.

    Remove the spring on the rear shock and cycle the suspension.

    Now notice that the brake caliper has rotated clockwise.

    End.
    Well understood. Just trying to have some evening fun (beats sit-coms!).

    Hence the closing "tongue firmly in cheek".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Exactly. I don't want to be held back by this limitation, and it is one reason that I bought a turner. It's good that you can choose where to brake, but again, if we could all choose exactly where and when to brake, we wouldn't have much need of things like ABS, because we just "don't use them" much.

    Sorry for the heated post guys.

    Please don't get too crazy as were only talking about fusking bikes.

    Peace out, I'm off to TGR until this whole thing blows over. LET IT SNOW!
    Last edited by chowdapilot; 10-04-2005 at 11:06 PM.

  98. #98
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    and that, boys and squirles, is the only worthwhile statement to come out of this hidiously ill timed and unfactual thread. what is the ultimate answer to this ultimate question of pivot placement? 42! "huh?" you say? well ya never understood the question so how can you understand the answer? i suggest you read mr adams books for clarification and a much needed break from all this conjecture.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  99. #99
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    I'm probably going to buy a turner anyways, but was wondering, has Turner explained why they made the change. If I missed this somewhere please direct me to the info.
    Thanks

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveM
    I've only had basic college engineering, (statics, dynamics, strength of materials), so I'll leave the technical arguement to those more qualified. I rode a '99 FSR Enduro for two years, then an '01Bullit for two, and am now on an '03 FSR Enduro. Under hard rear braking, the single pivot Bullit would chatter and skip like a hardtale, and on the same trails, same rider, same braking, the Horst link FSR Enduro feels like it has its full 5+ inches of supple travel.

    So, it works for me, though I know that I brake hard on steep terrain. I would have also like to have tried a floating brake on the Bullit, but I didn't get a chance.
    Far too many other variables involved to conclude that this is down to the FSR. My engineering background is pretty extensive and I still can't see why Horst Link/FSR should give any real life advantage under heavy braking.

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