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  1. #1
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    Thanks for the many great years

    Dave,

    Thanks for the many great years.

    I’ve been riding turner’s for some time now and have always felt their bikes are the pinnacle in climbing, breaking, and descending performance. That being said, I’ve purchased my very last Turner (until they return to their former glory)

    I fully understand the reasoning for moving to TNT, but I’m just not buying it. Yes TNT may be “almost as good” but a compromise here today and one tomorrow is still a compromise non the less (mind you, when I spend more on a bike than my car I’m not looking to compromise)

    In the end, all I can think of is how grand the experience has been. Dave, please forgive me for moving on, and I’ll be sure to forgive you for TNT.

    Thanks for a wonderful ride (my 05 6pack should be fine for many years) and I’ll see you when you return to your formal glory.

    -A

  2. #2
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    Ibis?

    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot

    Thanks for a wonderful ride (my 05 6pack should be fine for many years) and I’ll see you when you return to your formal glory.

    -A
    You got at last 5 years on that frame, I plan to spend 8 more on my obsolete Project-Push-Spotty 26 pounder (Finally working nicely, with Push Vanilla and Push Rp3, and Martas 180/160) after that who knows ... probably a stunning Taiwanese made frame made out of carbonizio

    Now .. if they discontinue the bushings ... it might be too much ... I might have to leave early

    Ibis? It is "only" $1899 retail with DW link and all carbon construction ... and it is an IBIS!
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    Last edited by Davide; 10-01-2005 at 02:10 AM.

  3. #3
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    I'm seriously considering that IBIS....such a nice bike!
    DW-Link, IBIS, 5.5" = drool...

  4. #4
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    I do fancy the ibis as well, but would like to hear more about it's resistance to point impacts and chipping etc.
    I like my bike frames to last longer than a squash racket...

  5. #5
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    Where do you put a water bottle?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    Ibis? It is "only" $1899 retail with DW link and all carbon construction ... and it is an IBIS!
    Does "Ibis" have John C. and the other players back, or is the "new Ibis" just a new company with the same name as the old company?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #7
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    I'm considering buying a Turner, I have heard a lot of good things about them and was just wondering what is TNT and what is the difference from the way Turner use to do rear triangles? I'm assuming that it is a change in design of the rear triangle but really don't understand what the change is. Also what are the disadvantages and advantages if any?

    Thanks for any input, if this is answered in another thread please direct me to it if you don't mind.

    Thanks
    Chris

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Does "Ibis" have John C. and the other players back, or is the "new Ibis" just a new company with the same name as the old company?
    Sorta both, I think. Sounds like John C has his own company, but most of the others are in Ibis again. Muddle thru their website for more info....

    http://www.ibisbicycles.com

    I like the Mojo's specs and weight, the price is definitely competitive, but I think it's a fugly frame design. Guess I'm just too old-fashioned...or maybe just old.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track rookie
    I'm considering buying a Turner, I have heard a lot of good things about them and was just wondering what is TNT and what is the difference from the way Turner use to do rear triangles? I'm assuming that it is a change in design of the rear triangle but really don't understand what the change is. Also what are the disadvantages and advantages if any?

    Thanks for any input, if this is answered in another thread please direct me to it if you don't mind.

    Thanks
    Chris
    No more horst link on the back, the new TNT turners are like the ventanas where the rear pivot point is now above the axle. This means the suspension will stiffen up under braking more (brake squat) and the pedaling will be a little less efficiant overall.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the response.

    I can see why people are upset over this, the pedal efficiency is been one of the big reason I wanted to buy a turner. I currently ride a hard tail I have been reluctant to go FS because of loss of pedal efficiency. I have been told this not the case with turners, that they pedal very well for FS bikes. I tried to look at a Ventanna and a turner side by side to see the difference but really couldn't tell. So I have somewhat of dumb queston, where is the horst link located on the turner flux?

    Thanks again.
    Chris

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track rookie
    Thanks for the response.

    I can see why people are upset over this, the pedal efficiency is been one of the big reason I wanted to buy a turner. I currently ride a hard tail I have been reluctant to go FS because of loss of pedal efficiency. I have been told this not the case with turners, that they pedal very well for FS bikes. I tried to look at a Ventanna and a turner side by side to see the difference but really couldn't tell. So I have somewhat of dumb queston, where is the horst link located on the turner flux?

    Thanks again.
    Chris
    Here's a couple of pics. The horst link is located forwad of and below the rear axle, like on my burner. the new pivot is above the rear axle. I have no opinion on what the ride difference is as I have had no time on either. But if I were you I'd read through the posts by Tscheezy and Bikezilla. Sounds like they don't ride much different. Biggest thing is don't form an opinion until you've had a chance to test one, or see some more in depth reviews.

    happy trails...

    squish
    Last edited by squish; 09-18-2007 at 10:02 AM.
    Get out and ride!

  12. #12
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    Thanks, I can clearly tell now what is being talked about. I'm planning on Demo a Turn Flux soon. It will probably be an 05 model, wich probably doesn't incorporate the change. I guess I should try ride a brand that is set up like the second picture (without horst link) and see if there is a difference.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track rookie
    Thanks, I can clearly tell now what is being talked about. I'm planning on Demo a Turn Flux soon. It will probably be an 05 model, wich probably doesn't incorporate the change. I guess I should try ride a brand that is set up like the second picture (without horst link) and see if there is a difference.
    Careful with that one to, different brands can ride totally different. Try to find a Turner with new rear end. Frame geometry, pivot locations, rocker shape and design, shock settings, it can all make a big difference in the way a bike can feel. But don't let that put you off, ride different bikes and make an informed decision you will be much happier with the bike you choose that way.

    happy trails...

    Josh
    Get out and ride!

  14. #14
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    Castellano / Flux

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Does "Ibis" have John C. and the other players back, or is the "new Ibis" just a new company with the same name as the old company?
    I think, just from Velonews, no "inside" info at all, that Castellano is right there (in the photo!). Which would be great because with Sherwood he is one of the real fathers of modern MTB.

    The Flux (and Nitrous) are not really close to the original Horsts designs which have the pivot much lower (look at GT LTS/STS linkage for a good example. The STS/LTS by the way, has fenomenal traction, better than my 5-spot: it is glued to the ground uphill ... but the shocks are different .. so you go again: which one is which).

    Very (very!) roughly speaking, Flux, and antecedent similars, are much closer to ITC with the pivot closer to the rear axle. It a design pioneered in the USA by Ellsworth, and very popular in Europe for 3-4" travel rear suspension.

    To tell the difference in performance between a true Horst or Horst/ITC or faux 4-bar takes a lot of work, which by itself tells you that these designs (especially when coupled with a modern superior suspension) will work in real life very similarly. But the faux 4-bar (or others DW-link VPP) don't have a weak spot right on the chain-stay.

    This is the point that people in the know (starting from Sherwood at Ventana - ending with http://www.dreambike.com/home.htm) made for years. Nice to notice that Tcheese and Bikezilla are finally realizing it now that daddy says so
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  15. #15
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    I got an Email from Turner which said that they will be shipping Horst bikes until the end of the year (Dec. '05). So if you want the HL get it before it is gone!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    To tell the difference in performance between a true Horst or Horst/ITC or faux 4-bar takes a lot of work, which by itself tells you that these designs (especially when coupled with a modern superior suspension) will work in real life very similarly. But the faux 4-bar (or others DW-link VPP) don't have a weak spot right on the chain-stay.
    True, but the entire reason we bought turners was that they use bushings, which eliminates the "weak spot".
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by be350ka
    I got an Email from Turner which said that they will be shipping Horst bikes until the end of the year (Dec. '05).
    Hmmm....Something about that seems less than arbitrary. When was the last time a manufacturer's model year coincided perfectly with the calender year?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  18. #18
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    Maybe / Nicolai / Ventana 29" El Capitan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    True, but the entire reason we bought turners was that they use bushings, which eliminates the "weak spot".
    Maybe ... a good bearing would do as well (Titus are famous for the rear rigidity), and Intense and others had downhill Horsts (with bearings of course). This is even more academical than discussions on linkages (which do differ!): well executed bushing or bearing will perform identically for all practical purposes on a 3-6" bike.

    However, the easy forecast is that nobody will be using bushings in the future. Bushings are now left only to Turner .. and Nicolai, which being a serious operation gives you the option, at least until last year, of bushings or bearings in their cross-country/all-mountain models.

    Oh and for Miles E: Ventana has been in production with El Capitan
    29" frame for a while: http://ventanausa.com/frame_elcapitan.html
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    Last edited by Davide; 10-01-2005 at 12:24 PM.

  19. #19
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    chowdahead's origin post is a pathetic underhanded blackmail post. what a raging d!ck.

    say chowdahead, did you ride any of the '06 Turners that you so quickly dismiss?

    d!ck, I tell you. d!ck.
    Last edited by gonzostrike; 10-01-2005 at 12:10 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    No more horst link on the back, the new TNT turners are like the ventanas where the rear pivot point is now above the axle. This means the suspension will stiffen up under braking more (brake squat) and the pedaling will be a little less efficiant overall.
    THEORETICALLY, you mean. THEORETICALLY.

    armchair engineers need to stop posting pseudo-knowledge as fact.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot
    Dave, please forgive me for moving on, and I’ll be sure to forgive you for TNT.
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    chowdahead's origin post is a pathetic underhanded blackmail post. what a raging d!ck.

    say chowdahead, did you ride any of the '06 Turners that you so quickly dismiss?

    d!ck, I tell you. d!ck.
    You said what I was thinking earlier! He obviously swallowed the Horst Link pill too. Come on, there's nothing wrong with TNT. It might only be a simple "Faux Bar" but then that derogatory term was only invented by HL evangelists to make their supposedly superior design look even better.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    a good bearing would do as well (Titus are famous for the rear rigidity), and Intense and others had downhill Horsts (with bearings of course). This is even more academical than discussions on linkages (which do differ!): well executed bushing or bearing will perform identically for all practical purposes on a 3-6" bike.
    Absolutely not! I owned a switchblade for 1 year; I had to replace the bearings in the rockers every 3 months or so. Seemed like every time I checked them they were seized/crunchy. The bike was stiff, but nowhere near as stiff as my turner which as 1.5" more travel and has required a total of 15 minutes of pivot maintenance over 2 seasons of riding.

    a 5.5" carbon FS frame? Man i would lose sleep at night wondering when the head tube would fail! what do the bearings press into? what about chainsuck? what kind of bonded carbon/alu headtube is going to withstand repeated nose-heavy drops with a 160mm fork? Not for me thanks.

    As for showdapilots post, pretty pathetic.

    way too much *****ing and not enough riding going on around here.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenskin
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.
    Sorry to offend so many of you, I was simply telling it as I see it.

    As for getting a life, you're all very right, we're only talking about bikes here, not war, world hunger etc. For you to call me an f-ing diq, or anything else only shows how passionate you are about this topic.

    For me, I'm simply not interested in TNT. However, 5 years from now when I decide to upgrade from my 6pack, I'll be sure to weigh all options. That being said, if I was to purchase a bike today, I would not be tempted by a TNT pack.

    Again, sorry if I offended anyone. Please forgive my honesty, and though many of you may think I'm a "freak", I do not hold any hostility against any of your for your thoughts. In the end, we're only talking about fusking bikes right?

  25. #25
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    Thanks for the...

    Quote Originally Posted by greenskin
    Get a life you freak. It's a fusking bike.
    Jeez--thanks for the many great years---David, please forgive me...

    I usually don't get too riled up over anything I read on this forum, but the original poster is so full of sh!t I had to say something. As far as I'm concerned, DTs reputation is still very much intact. Whatever direction he's taking his company, you can be sure, has been well thought out and his final products will still be typical Turner product--finely crafted, superbly riding bikes. Different doesn't mean inferior. TNT? Bring it on, I want to ride one!

  26. #26
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    DW ibis=sweet

    Castanello is a fruitcake,that's why it's got DW suspension
    The important thing is that Scot Nicol is back at Ibis.I'm nor sure of the guy's name, but an ex SC employee talked Scot into re starting Ibis with him

    The ibis was the coolest thing i saw at IB but i don't think i fall into the full carbon bike catagory,i hope i don't destroy the 575.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Maybe ... a good bearing would do as well (Titus are famous for the rear rigidity), and Intense and others had downhill Horsts (with bearings of course).
    You completely missed the point. FSR/Horst link designs are inherently more flexy, that is a fact and has been known for a long time. Hence why Ventana doesn't use this linkage arrangement. To counter this, Turner used bushings, which made it one of the only viable horst link bikes for us that like the better braking and pedaling traits.

    I've never heard that Titus bikes are "famous" for their rigidity, although the first ride of a bike is no indicator of what the rigidity will be 6 months to a year down the road. That is the real test.

    Could some special needle or angular contact bearing work in this situation? Sure, but it's added weight and complexity that's not needed. The bushing fits the description perfectly, limited rotation, rigidity(big point), can be serviced (purged)without disassembly...

    So the point was, if we wanted a horst link bike because we liked the braking and pedaling traits of that design, and we wanted a stiff rear end, we bought a turner.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    THEORETICALLY, you mean. THEORETICALLY.

    Sorry, brake caliper rotation is real, not a theory. IC/CC is also real, not a theory. Read more.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot
    For me, I'm simply not interested in TNT. However, 5 years from now when I decide to upgrade from my 6pack, I'll be sure to weigh all options. That being said, if I was to purchase a bike today, I would not be tempted by a TNT pack.
    Why not? You obviously liked your HL Turner. What makes you think the TNT version will be worse? Oh sorry, you believed the Turner was only good because it had a HL. Oh dear.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Why not? You obviously liked your HL Turner. What makes you think the TNT version will be worse? Oh sorry, you believed the Turner was only good because it had a HL. Oh dear.
    Before saying that, why don't you go try a bunch of 6" travel SP bikes, and see how they brake compared to the HL 6 pack. No matter how much people want it to be true, there's no way that DT can make up for this deficiancy with the "new" bikes unless he moves to installing a floating brake on the bike. I won't even get into the pedaling, but yes, there is no doubt that it will brake worse, and for those of us that carefully selected the 6 pack because of it's good braking and pedaling characteristics, there is no doubt that the TNT version will be worse, because DT can't change the laws of physics, caliper rotation, etc...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  31. #31
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    Intelligent Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You completely missed the point. FSR/Horst link designs are inherently more flexy, that is a fact and has been known for a long time. Hence why Ventana doesn't use this linkage arrangement. To counter this, Turner used bushings, which made it one of the only viable horst link bikes for us that like the better braking and pedaling traits.

    So the point was, if we wanted a horst link bike because we liked the braking and pedaling traits of that design, and we wanted a stiff rear end, we bought a turner.
    No, we simply disagree on one point. Yes, a Horst is inherently weaker.

    BUT, the theory that bushings will make a viable Horst link, and bearings will not, sounds very new to me ... never heard of this, where does it come from, the little I read around in publications does not seem to indicate this... maybe it is just a theory? (we have "Intelligent Design", http://www.newyorker.com/shouts/cont...50926sh_shouts , why not "Intelligent Bushings")

    A bit more seriously: If somebody has numbers comparing the rigidity or the chainstays of Titus, Intense (pre-VPP of course), Turner, Ellsworth, GT and Nicolai with and without bushings, among others, we can talk otherwise ... it is a bit of a waste of time ... both systems work.

    But if you want to say that bearings don't work it is fine with me ... no problema

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    But if you want to say that bearings don't work it is fine with me ... no problema
    I didn't say that. You must learn to read.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com
    Castanello is a fruitcake,that's why it's got DW suspension
    The important thing is that Scot Nicol is back at Ibis.I'm nor sure of the guy's name, but an ex SC employee talked Scot into re starting Ibis with him

    The ibis was the coolest thing i saw at IB but i don't think i fall into the full carbon bike catagory,i hope i don't destroy the 575.


    Are you now riding a 575? Or just wondering about the carbon link?

  34. #34
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    real world comparison

    I can't believe I'm getting in on this slugfest, but here goes.

    I've ridden my pal's 5 spot a couple of times. I've also ridden the Moment. Coming from a Blur, I am highly impressed with the 5spot and Moment's ability to pedal through anything. I was more partial to the 5spot because I've always wanted a Turner and don't feel like I need the beef and bulk of the Moment. The performed equally well. The longer travel on the Moment was nice, but still I was for the Turner. I rode an '06 5 spot at Bootleg Canyon and though it is still a nice ride, I did notice a different. I noticed the "squat" under hard braking. I didn't notice a difference in pedalling efficiency. It is sandy out there and I attributed any sluggishness to that.
    I thought a little brake squat ain't that bad. After all, I'm on a Blur and "squat" is better than "jack" (back end wants to "jack-up" under hard braking). I talked it over with a friend who knows infinately more about rear suspension than I and who sells a lot of Turners. He said, "sure, the new design ain't that bad, but why spend the money on a Turner when you can get a Kona that'll do the same thing?"
    I'm scrapin' up all the cash I can to get an '05 Turner before they're gone... Or maybe I'll wait forthe Ibis

    Let the flaming begin.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    He said, "sure, the new design ain't that bad, but why spend the money on a Turner when you can get a Kona that'll do the same thing?"
    I'm scrapin' up all the cash I can to get an '05 Turner before they're gone... Or maybe I'll wait forthe Ibis.

    Why scrape up all that cash for an '05 Turner when you can get a Specialized that'll do the same thing?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    Why scrape up all that cash for an '05 Turner when you can get a Specialized that'll do the same thing?
    1. As a Turner dealer I get employee purchase pricing.
    2. Even I know enough about rear suspension to know that the different linkage will perform differently. The Kona Dawg series has the same (or at least very similar linkage) as the 2006 Turner. Turner has bushings, Dawg has bearings. The Specialized Stumpjumper (or any other Specialized) linkage is nothing like the Turner's. It will not perform the same. In fact, I rode an Epic Brain when it first came out and I thought it rode like dookie.

    That's why I'll scrape up the cash for an '05 Turner.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    I talked it over with a friend who knows infinately more about rear suspension than I and who sells a lot of Turners. He said, "sure, the new design ain't that bad, but why spend the money on a Turner when you can get a Kona that'll do the same thing?"
    My girlfriend and I went to the Turner Demo today in Fontana. She's been riding a Kona Kikapu for the last year. Today she tried a Five Spot and a Flux. She brought her Kona with her so she could ride it on the same trails as the Turners back to back. She was amazed by how much better she liked the Turners. On a number of occasions, she surprised herself by easily cleaning some technical sections on the Turners she had difficulty with on the Kona. She said she felt much more confident on the Turners and had a huge smile on her face the whole time she was riding them.

    To equate Turners to Konas simply because they share a pivot location is foolish.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkullCrack

    To equate Turners to Konas simply because they share a pivot location is foolish.
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  39. #39
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    Speaking of Placebo effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    My Apologizes.. The DawgMatic and 5 Spot are Soooo dissimilar. How could I have been so foolish???

    5 Spot
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23"
    Chain Stay 16.9"

    Dawg Matic
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23.1" (that 1/10 of an inch could make a BIG difference in the handling of this bike)
    Chain Stay 17.1"

    Was your girl riding an Explosiv SkullCrack? I could see where she'd notice a difference there.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
    Yeah, that's it.

    For it to be the placebo effect, the patient has to believe the treatment he/she is taking will be effective. That was not the case with my girlfriend's experience today. Quite the opposite. Going in, she was doubtful the bike would even fit as she is on the shorter side and didn't think the small Spot would be small enough.

    While she knows that I like my Turners, she didn't hold the belief that she was going to get on one and have some kind of epiphany (can I still use that word in this forum?). Her good experience today was a surprise to her, not a confirmation.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    My Apologizes.. The DawgMatic and 5 Spot are Soooo dissimilar. How could I have been so foolish???

    5 Spot
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23"
    Chain Stay 16.9"

    Dawg Matic
    Medium
    HT Angle 69degrees
    ST Angle 73degrees
    TT 23.1" (that 1/10 of an inch could make a BIG difference in the handling of this bike)
    Chain Stay 17.1"

    Was your girl riding an Explosiv SkullCrack? I could see where she'd notice a difference there.
    Her Kona is a 04 Kikapu Deluxe.


  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkullCrack
    Her Kona is a 04 Kikapu Deluxe.

    Hmmm 4" travel bike, slacker head tube, steepre seat tube... did it have a llonger top tube than the Kikapu?

    What I'm getting at is Kona makes a great bike, Turner makes a great bike and Horst Link ICT is the sh!t. I'm accomplished enough that the suspension design is not gonna be the deciding factor as to whether I can clean a technical section or not. The deciding factor is the rider. I've ridden the 2005 and 2006 5 Spot BEFORE I read all of the BS on this forum. My decision is based on experience (yes, I've ridden the Dawg too.)
    Now, If you'll excuse me, I've got to get some rest so I can get up early and ride my VPP bike on some Santa Cruz single track tomorrow

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    Hmmm 4" travel bike, slacker head tube, steepre seat tube... did it have a llonger top tube than the Kikapu?

    What I'm getting at is Kona makes a great bike, Turner makes a great bike and Horst Link ICT is the sh!t. I'm accomplished enough that the suspension design is not gonna be the deciding factor as to whether I can clean a technical section or not. The deciding factor is the rider. I've ridden the 2005 and 2006 5 Spot BEFORE I read all of the BS on this forum. My decision is based on experience (yes, I've ridden the Dawg too.)
    Now, If you'll excuse me, I've got to get some rest so I can get up early and ride my VPP bike on some Santa Cruz single track tomorrow
    I'm sorry about the "foolish" comment. I never meant to imply that Kona doesn't make a great bike. My girlfriend has been very happy with hers. I was just trying to point out that there's more to what makes a Turner ride the way it does than just the Horst Link.

    I also didn't mean it was the suspension design that allowed my girlfriend to clean those sections. She said it was because she felt more confident on the Turner.

    Have a good ride! I have some friends up there who have told me how great the riding is. I gotta make it up there one of these days.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Before saying that, why don't you go try a bunch of 6" travel SP bikes, and see how they brake compared to the HL 6 pack. .
    But to be a fair comparison shouldn't all those bikes have the exact same pivot location and chain stay length? If not arent they all completly different systems that will all have different characteristics?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    The Specialized Stumpjumper (or any other Specialized) linkage is nothing like the Turner's. It will not perform the same. In fact, I rode an Epic Brain when it first came out and I thought it rode like dookie.
    Please enlighten us how the Specialized linkage is different. Turner has bushings, Specialized has bearings. Other than that, sounds exactly the same. And please don't throw in the Brain again, that was embarassing.

  46. #46
    Roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yep, because it doesn't take into account the placebo effect.

    I love how the placebo effect applies to the "defend Turner at all costs" zealots, but doesn't apply to the "a faux bar can't possibly perform as good as a horst" zealots. It's like watching twins fight - great stuff.

  47. #47
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    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish (Duglas Adams)

    Sadly, this is the situation.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    I love how the placebo effect applies to the "defend Turner at all costs" zealots, but doesn't apply to the "a faux bar can't possibly perform as good as a horst" zealots. It's like watching twins fight - great stuff.
    Obviously it does, because those of us that bought the turner for the horst link did carefull research and have lots of time on both kinds of bikes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I didn't say that. You must learn to read.
    And why being so litigious? I am just to be conciliatory here, ok?

    All I am trying to say is that I never seen any numbers indicating that bushings work better than bearings in terms of rigidity. But I not going to argue with those people, maybe not you in particular, that claim otherwise. although my impression is that this is another one of those slighlty mithological "Facts" spread around Turner-bikes ...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide

    All I am trying to say is that I never seen any numbers indicating that bushings work better than bearings in terms of rigidity.
    Please, stop while you are behind.

    Anyone that is vaguely familier with engineering or aerospace would know there are literally thousands of types of bearings out there, many different kinds, many different ways that they contact and distribute load. A blanket statement "bearings are better" or "bushings are better" is just utterly rediculous. You want lateral rigidity in a bearing that will be on the suspension pivots on a bike? You have a few options, some needle bearings, which are hard to design into small places and need very good tolerances, or how about some nice angular contact or roller bearings? Then the weight and complexity go up. Think about a bushing, think about the surface area that the load is distributed on, think about trying to flex a bushing compared to a bearing and it's interface. Remember, I have never said, nor am I saying, that one is better than the other, but in the suspension pivot, the bushing lends itself very well.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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