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  1. #1
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    Tapered Headtube?

    Tapered headtubes, 1 1/2 lower & 1 1/8 upper cups.
    Pros, cons, etc., what are your thoughts?

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    I'd like to see one on the Sultan


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider
    Tapered headtubes, 1 1/2 lower & 1 1/8 upper cups.
    Pros, cons, etc., what are your thoughts?
    I think the '10 RFX is getting one. That's what I think.

    Pros: Light enough. Plenty o' stem options. Stiffer than 1.125". Can run a ZeroStack HS and 1.125" fork to get a steeper head angle.

    Cons: Can't run the 1.5 fork you already own. Not as stiff as 1.5.

  4. #4
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    Tapered head tubes...lame just like 15mm front axles.

    How much weight can really be saved? Does it justify the increased costs? I think not.

    Make all head tubes 1.5" and give people the option of running 1.5" steer tubes forks or 1.125" zero stack or normal.

  5. #5
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    Thank god we get to discuss this again, the 2 days of silence was killing me.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    I'd like to see one on the Sultan
    Only because you want the Zocchi rumored to being made for that Niner bike

  7. #7
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    im still lookin for all those 1 1/8" headsets, headtubes and steeretubes that failed and brought on this need for somethin diff. we need more industry standards designed to save us from ourselves. the 1.5 idea is the outlawing of lawn darts in the bike world if ya ask me so why not create yet another new pointless standard for the bike co's marketing teams.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    Tapered head tubes...lame just like 15mm front axles.

    How much weight can really be saved? Does it justify the increased costs? I think not.

    Make all head tubes 1.5" and give people the option of running 1.5" steer tubes forks or 1.125" zero stack or normal.
    x1 , took the thoughts right out of my head.
    It's Better To Die On Your Feet Than To Live On Your Knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

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    I don't get the need for another standard. Either make them all 1.5", or all 1 1/8th".

    Personally for anything like the RFX or bigger, I'd prefer full 1.5", that way people can run whatever they want like Nagaredama mentioned. Plenty of companies make step down headsets now.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider
    Tapered headtubes, 1 1/2 lower & 1 1/8 upper cups.
    Pros, cons, etc., what are your thoughts?
    I must have missed the last discussion on this - not that it matters

    Pros:
    -Stiffness is increased over 1 1/8" and not far off 1.5 (theoretically)
    -Can use any 1 1/8" stem - this has been the Achilles heel of 1.5 for non hard core FR/DH 1.5 users. There is currently limited selection of 1.5 stems and they are relatively heavy compared to 1 1/8". With a tapered setup people can use any old standard stem
    -Can still run a standard 1 1/8" fork with a lower cup reducer
    -Looks badass

    Cons:
    - Creates reason for people to whine. There really aren't any negatives to a tapered steerer
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

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  11. #11
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    Didn't DT mention in one of his post that there is almost no discernable difference in stiffness between the two 1 1/8 and 1.5? If I recall correctly most of the flex in a fork was found to be in the lower crown and that the move to 1.5 wasn't going to make a difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd
    Didn't DT mention in one of his post that there is almost no discernable difference in stiffness between the two 1 1/8 and 1.5? If I recall correctly most of the flex in a fork was found to be in the lower crown and that the move to 1.5 wasn't going to make a difference?
    Flex in the crown (or rather at the crown/steerer tube junction) is exactly why a 1.5 or tapered steerer tube is going to be more robust.

  13. #13
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    Steerer tubes occasionally do break, or bend. If the 1.5 is more resistant to this, then I am all for it. According to RockShox, the 1.5 steerer tube is both lighter and stiffer than 1.125.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AW_
    Steerer tubes occasionally do break, or bend. If the 1.5 is more resistant to this, then I am all for it. According to RockShox, the 1.5 steerer tube is both lighter and stiffer than 1.125.
    I could be wrong, but I think it was ebxtreme who sometime last summer said after riding some 1 1/8th" head tube/fork bikes back to back with some 1.5" head tube bikes with 1.5" steerers, he could tell a definite difference in stiffness, especially in the steep stuff.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007
    I could be wrong, but I think it was ebxtreme who sometime last summer.....
    Well, he bent a 1-1/8th steerer on a older zocchi 66, so that counts for "noticing"
    I'm not sure if it was a steel or alu steerer.
    He weighs like 160 after shaving. I think thats a pretty good case for some kind of beefier standard!

    I also know that it's tough to make a 50mm stem for 1.5 and 31.8 bars- so +1 for tapered.

    If headsets will be readily available for this standard, I'm on board. I would be bummed to see straight 1-1/8 on the new RFX. I'm not sold on bigger steerer tubes so much, but I have noticed 1.5 headsets are less noise & maintenance with the extra crown race surface.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Well, he bent a 1-1/8th steerer on a older zocchi 66, so that counts for "noticing"
    He weighs like 160 after shaving. I think thats a pretty good case for some kind of beefier standard!

    I also know that it's tough to make a 50mm stem for 1.5 and 31.8 bars- so +1 for tapered.


    1.5" 50mm stem

    But I like the extra beefiness for us guys who hover around that 200 lb mark geared up. Makes me feel better at any rate.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd
    Didn't DT mention in one of his post that there is almost no discernable difference in stiffness between the two 1 1/8 and 1.5? If I recall correctly most of the flex in a fork was found to be in the lower crown and that the move to 1.5 wasn't going to make a difference?
    I think this would only apply to double triple clamp forks.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    I think this would only apply to double triple clamp forks.
    I was trying to find where he talked about it and now that you mention this it could have had more to do with the DHR remaining at 1 1/8.. Since most DH bikes use the bigger forks but the steerers are almost all 1 1/8. That and the dual crown makes up any lack of stiffness that a single crown would have

  19. #19
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    cons: they look funny! no, really...
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  20. #20
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    If the biggest benefit of the tapered steerer is stem availablity, a 1.5 head tube still allows you to run a tapered setup.

    _MK
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    stiffer

    It was correctly pointed out to my way back statement about 1 1/8th being plenty stiff as the distance between the cups is not enough for someone to feel the flex..... that most of a single crown fork flex is below the crown race, so that settled it for me, I 'got' it, that is why the tapered exists. Cane Creek makes em, King makes em and lot of imports are available with the 'mixed' bearings. All the advantages of 1.5 with none of the stem and upper head set drawbacks.

    I am NOT trying to replace the Highline with this bike. The Highline is gone. Deal with it. If someone wants a monster bike that pedals well buy a 7 Point on sale and laugh off of every 25 to flat. CC will be the distance judge.

    DT

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    It was correctly pointed out to my way back statement about 1 1/8th being plenty stiff as the distance between the cups is not enough for someone to feel the flex..... that most of a single crown fork flex is below the crown race, so that settled it for me, I 'got' it, that is why the tapered exists. Cane Creek makes em, King makes em and lot of imports are available with the 'mixed' bearings. All the advantages of 1.5 with none of the stem and upper head set drawbacks.

    I am NOT trying to replace the Highline with this bike. The Highline is gone. Deal with it. If someone wants a monster bike that pedals well buy a 7 Point on sale and laugh off of every 25 to flat. CC will be the distance judge.

    DT
    So you're saying the next sultan will have a tapered HT?


  23. #23
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    If we don't hurry up and claim that we wan't some other sort of headtube configuration Dave might get wise.

    I vote for Gary Fisher Evolution 1.25" top AND bottom. Compramise.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  24. #24
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    How many forks are/will even be available in this format? And how many people would actually choose to run one if the bike had a 1.5" headtube and they could run any of the three options (1 1/8", tapered, 1.5"). Ten percent, if that? Less than those that would run a full 1.5" I'm sure.

    So for the sake of not inconveniencing the (small) tapered crowd with having to run a reducer on their top headset cup, the 1.5" crowd gets tossed on the street, just as 1.5 160mm forks are widely available ?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  25. #25
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    I don't give a sh!t about tapered headtubes. My Highline has 1.5, my Gruitr has 1.125. Thomson makes their Elite X4 stem in both sizes and that is the ONLY stem I ride. To hell with that "new" standard crap. Pick one or the other. 1.5 gives you the option to run anything you want. Period.

    And yes they look terribly ugly.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I vote for Gary Fisher Evolution 1.25" top AND bottom. Compramise.
    I think you are onto something!!! How about 1" top and 1.25 Fisher bottom... we'll call it the All Mountain™ Light Freeride Taper System.

  27. #27
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    Practically I'm not fussed either way. I currently have a 1.125 160mm fork that I'll be keeping for the forseeable future. If the DWRFX comes with tapered HT I'll just have to buy a lower reducer, if its a full 1.5, then I'll have to spring for a full headset. Not exactly a deal breaker.

    Theoretically, I'm more for the full 1.5, as it means every fork option is workable. Having to buy a new headset isn't much of an issue. Having to buy a new fork at £500+ is (or even new CSU for the forks). you're more likely to just buy a different frame.

    Although ^^ only applies to guys with 1.5 forks. How many of you out there who want an RFX already have a 1.5 fork?? I guess that's the real question. I suspect not too many (unless you're downsizing from a Highlinesque beasty)

  28. #28
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    tapered headtubes also allow for a larger downtube for greater frame rigidity on bikes that usually only run a 1 1/8. There is no benefit for DH or heavy freeride.
    Does rockshox make taper?

  29. #29
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    Tapered steertubes on forks is fine, but why taper the headtube on the frame? Put 1.5 on everything ( well maybe just the sultan, spot, rfx and dhr) and let the user go wild with the myriad of headset combinations.


    The argument of " people will try to run a fork that is too big for the frame" is null because I could easily mount a Dorado to a current spot. Adding a 1.5 headtube doesn't change that.
    Nothing to see here.

  30. #30
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    Tapered on the Flux and Sultan is OK. 1.5'' is better on the RFX and DHR.
    On the 5-Spot I'm not sure, 1.5'' may be overkill but I like it.

  31. #31
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    Just put a ZS headtube on and be done with it. You can run it any which way now, thanks to the XX44 lower cup from Cane Creek.

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  32. #32
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    Ugly

    As we learned with the proto RFX, tapered head tubes are ugly, at least in the top and bottom configuration I did with the proto. With a bigger top like ZS it may not so bad, but I will never know.

    DT

  33. #33
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    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    As we learned with the proto RFX, tapered head tubes are ugly, at least in the top and bottom configuration I did with the proto. With a bigger top like ZS it may not so bad, but I will never know.

    DT
    But DW link bikes are not exactly gorgeous

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    But DW link bikes are not exactly gorgeous
    Turner and IronHorse bikes weren't lookers, just a function over form kinda thing.
    But Pivot and Ibis frames are sexy.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1
    Turner and IronHorse bikes weren't lookers, just a function over form kinda thing.
    But Pivot and Ibis frames are sexy.
    To each his (or her), I guess.

    Not a big fan of the Ibis design, from a visual standpoint. And I don't think the Pivot is any better (or worse) than the Turner. Though, I think the Pivot's (at least the 429) design makes it harder to work on (esp. the front derailleur).

  36. #36
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    A tapered frame, not fork gives the benefit. Your favorite bikes would be just as good with the tapered headtube and the 1.5 steerer is no better than the 1-1/8. The only way to get stiffer fork response is stanchion size.fox 40's are prolly the stiiffest.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by taletotell
    A tapered frame, not fork gives the benefit. Your favorite bikes would be just as good with the tapered headtube and the 1.5 steerer is no better than the 1-1/8. The only way to get stiffer fork response is stanchion size.fox 40's are prolly the stiiffest.
    Sorry, you are wrong.
    1.5 forks are undeniably stiffer than 1 1/8. I have run on the same bike an 1 1/8 fork back to back with the same fork in a 1.5 (or tapered really no difference) and the 1.5 was noticeably more rigid. A tapered headtube may increase frame stiffness, as would a 1.5, but you really notice the more robust crown steerer interface on the trail.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider
    Sorry, you are wrong.
    1.5 forks are undeniably stiffer than 1 1/8. I have run on the same bike an 1 1/8 fork back to back with the same fork in a 1.5 (or tapered really no difference) and the 1.5 was noticeably more rigid. A tapered headtube may increase frame stiffness, as would a 1.5, but you really notice the more robust crown steerer interface on the trail.
    I've heard several people say the same thing, who have run both back to back. I believe one was either Airwreck or ebextreme.

    This is the major reason I want a new fork for my Highline, currently running an older 1 1/8th Marz 66.
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  39. #39
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    I forgot to consider the headset when I said that. A large headset undoubtedly allows more flex from bearing play.
    I want to see a frame test that stress tests a 1.5 and a tapered by the same company until they fail.
    Also the welds on a tapered would be more triangular when considered from a cross section. That suggests to me less flex when twisting.
    In the end I just got a tapered with a fox float 32 RL, and no complaints yet.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by taletotell
    I forgot to consider the headset when I said that. A large headset undoubtedly allows more flex from bearing play.
    I want to see a frame test that stress tests a 1.5 and a tapered by the same company until they fail.
    Also the welds on a tapered would be more triangular when considered from a cross section. That suggests to me less flex when twisting.
    In the end I just got a tapered with a fox float 32 RL, and no complaints yet.
    No. What bearing play? Is that even flex?

    The biggest gains are going to be gained from the insertion of the 1.5 tube through the fork crown (go look at your current fork, the steerer goes all the way through the crown). The larger diameter tube is going to be less apt to bend.

    It's that simple.
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  41. #41
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    The only reason bike companies and parts companies are pushing tapered is because of stem choices. It's another display of backwards thinking in the bike industry when there are changes and how any and all changes have to be connected to the former version to allow people to break into something better and cheaper during this transition. We have done the same now going from 1'' to 1 1/8, now to 1.5, and disc brakes, hubs, long travel,

    Tapered will look silly in a couple years. Hold on to your 1 1/8 forks for your long travel bikes if you want to keep them in the future.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    The only reason bike companies and parts companies are pushing tapered is because of stem choices. It's another display of backwards thinking in the bike industry when there are changes and how any and all changes have to be connected to the former version to allow people to break into something better and cheaper during this transition. We have done the same now going from 1'' to 1 1/8, now to 1.5, and disc brakes, hubs, long travel,

    Tapered will look silly in a couple years. Hold on to your 1 1/8 forks for your long travel bikes if you want to keep them in the future.
    I agree.

    Tapered is silly and just another unnecessary change for the sake of change. There is still plenty of flex @ the stem-HS-ST interface.

    1.5 is the deal.

  43. #43
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    Why not taper the wall thickness of the steerer? Get the same stiffness and still run standard 1 1/8 steer tubes, get the stiffness you want in your steerer, and only moderate weight penalty. I would surmise that most of the people running 1.5 or tapered steerers are focused on downhill anyway, so a little bit of extra weight isn't going to hurt anyone.

  44. #44
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    Steerers almost never bend anyway. they are the strongest thing on the fork. The point where they meet the crown is the risky point and there 1.5 is better, but the tapered is 1.5 there too.
    And the play from bearins is what makes your wheels flex and what makes your rear suspension less snappy than a hard tail.
    bearing technology has come a long way, but it is still not perfect. That's why some companies use bushings with grease fittings in there suspension. More rigid.
    The same applies to your headset. Threadless is better than the old threaded but it still isn't perfect. Most play comes from there instead of flex of rigid steel and aluminum. In fact it's probably that play that causes your steerer tube to bend.

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