Results 1 to 71 of 71
  1. #1
    Chaplin Turner Overdrive
    Reputation: HollywoodUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    125

    RF6 TNT review - MBR

    Apologies for the quality - the test is between RF6, Moment, ML8 and Nomad. I didn't realise the Moment was that much cheaper than the Pack / RF6 in the UK - (£1300 vs £1600) - I always thought it was the other way round - weird. The review doesn't really say an awful lot but I thought some of you over the pond might want to have a look...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    516
    That magazine has the worst reviews ever, I cannot stand it. Where do they get their ideas from? Not just talking about this review, the mag in general is cr@p

  3. #3
    grumpy northerner
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    133
    MBR's bike tests are almost always a complete waste of time. They often set themselves a specific criteria for the test (eg comparing Horst Link vs VPP), which would be a great idea if they didn't then completely ignore it and focus on everything but it - and then remember what they were supposed to be covering and bung in a quick paragraph at the end by way of summary.

    At least they don't run headset tests and deliberately leave out King, do articles about pedal cars, or devote half the magazine to the activities of the staff, though, like some other UK mags
    I haven't fallen off, I'm just having a rest.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    730
    The Moment as tested with a Fox DHX 5-which is a £125 upgrade on the Ells, costs <drumroll> £1824...

    That's current prices from Freeborn's website and seen as they are the sole importer they should know. Unlike MBR who seem to make a habit of things like this, they've most likely printed the price they can have one for if they give it a sweet review...

    Does MBR stand for MuppetBikeRider?
    "We're here for a good time not a long time"
    Colin McRae 1968-2007

  5. #5
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,115
    We all hate reviews that give Ellsworth a more positive light than Turner! Thus, this is tripe.

    Post this on the Ells board and you will get overwhelmingly positive responses.

  6. #6
    Chaplin Turner Overdrive
    Reputation: HollywoodUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    125
    MBR's not such a bad mag but they get a lot of stick, some of it justified. The routes for example - why are they always the wrong way round?! I thought it was just my group, but it seems that everyone agrees that they always seem to take you up the best descents so they can give you a long fireroad blast on the way back... Which is nice.

    With this review the Moment was given joint top marks in part because of the price, so if that is incorrect as Paul5s says, then that's a pretty basic error.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    730
    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    We all hate reviews that give Ellsworth a more positive light than Turner! Thus, this is tripe.

    Post this on the Ells board and you will get overwhelmingly positive responses.
    LoL

    A Turner will never outpoint an Ells in a MBR review in future as it ain't a Horst link bike any longer and we all know that MBR lurves the Horst link it's worth at least an extra point or maybe two

    Why do magazines complain about bikes like the Pack being too heavy when built for HD drop use complete with a full outfit of Diablus kit and comparing it to a trailbike build on something else? 'X' bike feels much nippier than the Pack and is easier to climb on, well durr, it's 6lbs lighter!
    "We're here for a good time not a long time"
    Colin McRae 1968-2007

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    536
    MBR often base their reviews on value and performance and when they do that they ought to give two rating - a value rating and a performance rating like here on the MTBR product review boards.
    I often find their reviews a bit confusing because they regard the price as a very imporpant parameter for the final rating. and it can be fx difficult to figure out which frame they regard as the best.

    But overall I find that it is one of the better MTB magazines out there.

  9. #9
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,132
    My only gripe is how so many frame reviews seem to talk about poor component selection, then go on to review the bike in a setup that they've already asserted is holding the bike back. Don't they have a few stems and tires lying around?

    Anyway it's always good to have another review to look at. (but I know we prefer user reviews *cough*MTBR*cough*)

    Thanks!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  10. #10
    The Ancient One
    Reputation: Steve from JH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,573

    MBR is relatively good

    I've always though MBR was one of the best bicycling mags.

    Of course that's like saying a particular restaurant is good because you're less likely to get food poisoning there.

  11. #11
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    I've always though MBR was one of the best bicycling mags.
    MBR's one of my favorites... I liked it better when they used to run the booty pics....

    my only beef with this review is the comment about geometry. I've never thought of a 70mm stem as being long? WTF. I can imagine climbing being improved with a 50mm stem even if the bike was lots lighter. Maybe it just didn't fit the tester?

    Note to MBR: If you can't get the front end of any bike with a 70mm stem up, you may want to consider lifting weights! start with 1lbs and work your way up...

  12. #12
    Built to Last
    Reputation: Frankenstein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    255
    Does MBR stand for MuppetBikeRider? [/QUOTE]



    'MulletBikeRiders'


    we all Know Turners Rock. 100% solid all around.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Prof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,165
    They are not comparing egg's with egg's, and certainly didn't factor in the possibility of one of them cracking

  14. #14
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    27,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul5s
    LoL

    A Turner will never outpoint an Ells in a MBR review in future as it ain't a Horst link bike any longer and we all know that MBR lurves the Horst link it's worth at least an extra point or maybe two

    Why do magazines complain about bikes like the Pack being too heavy when built for HD drop use complete with a full outfit of Diablus kit and comparing it to a trailbike build on something else? 'X' bike feels much nippier than the Pack and is easier to climb on, well durr, it's 6lbs lighter!
    Yeah, the 6pack frame is a whole .5lbs heavier than the moment with an equivalent shock.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Davide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,741
    Moment 10 Nomade 10 ... Turner 9

    When MBR published a review of the 5-Spot giving it a 10 the Turner Forum was cheering ... now MBR is horrible because it gives a 9 to a single pivot design? ... Guys ... isn't it time to be a bit more adult around here?

    There might (slightly) better bikes out there than a (fake-)Turner

    ... and most people seem to miss the most interesting comment in the article that botique bikes are about the "bling" not the quality of the ride. It is VERY hard to beat the quality of Specialized, Kona, Giant etc ...

    PS I LOVE my Pushed 5-spot ... thanks to PUSH
    Last edited by Davide; 10-30-2005 at 12:58 PM.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: drumstix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,291
    MBR= "Moment bought review"

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    730
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, the 6pack frame is a whole .5lbs heavier than the moment with an equivalent shock.
    It's not the frame weights I'm talking about look at the spec of the parts on the pack, then look at the Ells spec, there is a large difference in the style of build with the Pack being a lot more suited to dropping, the cranks set alone is a ~1lb heavier on the Pack. Why they don't try to get the frames built with similar or even better identical builds I'll never know...
    "We're here for a good time not a long time"
    Colin McRae 1968-2007

  18. #18
    Trail rider and racer
    Reputation: Trevor!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,692
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbz
    That magazine has the worst reviews ever, I cannot stand it. Where do they get their ideas from? Not just talking about this review, the mag in general is cr@p
    Its never been considered a quality read!
    Trev!

  19. #19
    Trail rider and racer
    Reputation: Trevor!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,692
    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    We all hate reviews that give Ellsworth a more positive light than Turner! Thus, this is tripe.

    Post this on the Ells board and you will get overwhelmingly positive responses.
    As an objective person, unbiased yet a happy Ellsworth owner, I see nothing wrong with this review. Indeed, its quality and the results are not surprising at all.
    Trev!

  20. #20
    Trail rider and racer
    Reputation: Trevor!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,692
    Quote Originally Posted by drumstix
    MBR= "Moment bought review"
    These sort of posts are really pathetic..


    ummm beating a dead horse by any chance?
    Trev!

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: miles e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    There might (slightly) better bikes out there than a (fake-)Turner
    And then again, there might not.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  22. #22
    Roy
    Roy is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Roy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,024
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul5s
    It's not the frame weights I'm talking about look at the spec of the parts on the pack, then look at the Ells spec, there is a large difference in the style of build with
    That's his point - all things being equal the 2 frames are within .5 lbs.

  23. #23
    Bike to the Bone...
    Reputation: rzozaya1969's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    8,293
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul5s
    It's not the frame weights I'm talking about look at the spec of the parts on the pack, then look at the Ells spec, there is a large difference in the style of build with the Pack being a lot more suited to dropping, the cranks set alone is a ~1lb heavier on the Pack. Why they don't try to get the frames built with similar or even better identical builds I'll never know...
    While I think you're right here, they're comparing apples to oranges, when they want oranges. But, to play devil's advocate I think reviewers should compare the bikes by what the manufacturer sends their way. I don't know what they told all 4 builders they wanted in their bike, to test a long-travel trailbike, a free-ride rig, XC racer (hehe). If MBR said they wanted to test a long-travel trailbike, then Turner should have fitted the RF6 lighter, or send a 5-Spot. But I really don't know how magazines get the bikes set up, and what they tell the manufacturer.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,558
    Could you tell us which month of MBR this review came from. In north america we usually get the issues a month later than you but I'll try to find it because I would like to read the other bikes reviews to see how the comments compare. I've found over the years that sometimes it's only a sentence here and there that you have to put in perspective when they do a shootout and you get a much more realistic idea of what the reviewer really thinks. After all they can't be negative because manufacturers are going to stop their advertising but often there is that "hidden" comment that let's you see they really liked or didn't like a specific point without putting too much emphasys on it so the manufacturers are happy.

    Thanks for posting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodUK
    Apologies for the quality - the test is between RF6, Moment, ML8 and Nomad. I didn't realise the Moment was that much cheaper than the Pack / RF6 in the UK - (£1300 vs £1600) - I always thought it was the other way round - weird. The review doesn't really say an awful lot but I thought some of you over the pond might want to have a look...

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    1,050
    MBR bike reviews are utter rubbish.

    Firstly they always set a bike up for the way they want it irrespective of whether the machine has been designed to cope with the resulting change in geometry / weight balance.

    Then they always want a shorter stem and riser bars, even on XC race bikes.

    They are actually in Specilaized pocket hence the constant Horst Link propaganda.

    And according to them, a Giro Zen helmet will cure all ill handling traits they have created with their complete butchering of a bikes geometry for the sake of looking the part.

    A 9 for the Heavier and more Free ride set up Turner, well it should have had a proper trail set up shouldn't it...

  26. #26
    ajr
    ajr is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    753
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad
    MBR bike reviews are utter rubbish.

    Firstly they always set a bike up for the way they want it irrespective of whether the machine has been designed to cope with the resulting change in geometry / weight balance.

    Then they always want a shorter stem and riser bars, even on XC race bikes.

    They are actually in Specilaized pocket hence the constant Horst Link propaganda.

    And according to them, a Giro Zen helmet will cure all ill handling traits they have created with their complete butchering of a bikes geometry for the sake of looking the part.

    A 9 for the Heavier and more Free ride set up Turner, well it should have had a proper trail set up shouldn't it...
    So are all the reviews rubbish including the ones that have given the 5 Spot 10 in the past ?

  27. #27
    Full Monty Bike Bore
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    483

    What no bling

    Quote Originally Posted by ajr
    So are all the reviews rubbish including the ones that have given the 5 Spot 10 in the past ?
    Hoho, v.good.

    Seems to me that the 6Pack was poorly spec'd and the MBR peeps couldn't see past the lack of new bling.
    Knobblies MTBing Blog

    "Always carry a flagon of whisky in case of a snakebite, furthermore, always carry a snake" W.C.Fields

  28. #28
    ajr
    ajr is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    753
    Quote Originally Posted by Farqui
    Hoho, v.good.

    Seems to me that the 6Pack was poorly spec'd and the MBR peeps couldn't see past the lack of new bling.
    What is frustrating for any supplier who sends a bike for test is that the mag often asks for a certain bike to do a certain thing. When you build it and they ride it they complain about components. If you buy a Turner you build it as you like. This makes a lot of the test a waste as they should concentrate on the frames ability to perform as a future customer would expect it to. I think mag tests are really only good for exposure. Nothing beats a test ride as I am sure you pack owners agree.

  29. #29
    Roy
    Roy is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Roy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,024
    Quote Originally Posted by ajr
    So are all the reviews rubbish including the ones that have given the 5 Spot 10 in the past ?
    I wouldn't really sweat the mag reviews - good or bad. They have their reasons for what they do and it's a business after all. Consider it just another data point, to add to the various reviews you get here and from talking with others/trying things out yourself. I wouldn't get too high on a mag review, nor too low.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: esquire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,653

    My thoughts exactly....

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    MBR's one of my favorites... I liked it better when they used to run the booty pics....

    my only beef with this review is the comment about geometry. I've never thought of a 70mm stem as being long? WTF. I can imagine climbing being improved with a 50mm stem even if the bike was lots lighter. Maybe it just didn't fit the tester?

    Note to MBR: If you can't get the front end of any bike with a 70mm stem up, you may want to consider lifting weights! start with 1lbs and work your way up...
    I agree, I had a 65mm stem on my Uzzi all year, and she ran about 42 pounds, all decked out. I can attest that if you can't huck a bike with that stem length, do a few push ups.

    Also, am I the only one confused by their language regarding big bike companies? "Will you get a better bike than Specialized? No...." and then it goes on to state that the smaller companies can "really dial in the geometry, etc." Um, thats what makes it a better bike, IMHO, dialing in the geometry and other tidbits that make a boutique a quality ride. Furthermore, picking apart each of the major brands, finding the 1 thing they do right and comparing it to all of the small manufacturers expecting them to do them all right, is hogwash. Ok, lets be fair, compare Giant's prices to a fully built Turner, yes, probably 20% or more over their expense, but then lets compare durability..... Compare Specialized's horst link designs with Turner, yes, very suspension characteristics...but now lets compare what happens when a bike breaks, who treats you better?

    That end of the article really soured me on MBR, which I admit I did like to pick it up once in a while.

  31. #31
    Bike to the Bone...
    Reputation: rzozaya1969's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    8,293
    Quote Originally Posted by ajr
    What is frustrating for any supplier who sends a bike for test is that the mag often asks for a certain bike to do a certain thing. When you build it and they ride it they complain about components. If you buy a Turner you build it as you like. This makes a lot of the test a waste as they should concentrate on the frames ability to perform as a future customer would expect it to. I think mag tests are really only good for exposure. Nothing beats a test ride as I am sure you pack owners agree.
    Yep, agree a lot on this. It's always hard to compare boutique bikes, because if you take bike 'A' from 'X' company, but fit it with Altus components, a $100 fork and wrong sized stem/handlebar, and compare it to bike 'B' from 'Y' company, that has a nice setup for what you want to do (XC, Freeride, Allmountain, etc.), bike 'B' of course will get better reviews, even if similarily configured maybe 'A' would be more adecuate.

    Even if you do test rides, several bikes would 'feel' different, and part of that may be fit, terrain, etc..

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    108

    Whiners about MBR

    MBR is great. High quality mag, awesome reviews, straight shooting. They tell it like it is, while the American like MBA pander to industry, give shallow reviews, and never clearly explain negative points about specific bikes. MBR pans crappy out of date bikes like Marins for the right reasons, and tell you why. MBA "loves" Marins, but dont tell you about overly high bottom brakets and out dated geometry.
    Nuff said.
    Christian

  33. #33
    JmZ
    JmZ is offline
    Reformed Lurker
    Reputation: JmZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Farqui
    Hoho, v.good.

    Seems to me that the 6Pack was poorly spec'd and the MBR peeps couldn't see past the lack of new bling.
    I wonder...

    Is it ever feasable to expect a bike test from different companies with idential parts spec (within reason). I've seen it in at least one american Mag...but they were testing slightly different bikes from the same manufacturer.

    It would be very interesting to get a real test with the only variable being the frame itself between boutique bikes like Turner, Titus, Ventana, Elsworth, and Santa Cruz, Intense.

    Just some random neural firings.

    JmZ
    JmZ

    From one flat land to another.

    Advocate as if your ride depends on it...

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    203

    Mbr

    Quote Originally Posted by ajr
    So are all the reviews rubbish including the ones that have given the 5 Spot 10 in the past ?
    I wouldn't like to say that *all* the reviews are rubbish, but the review which gave the 5 Spot 10 out of 10 was pretty rubbish. I seem to remember they made a few pretty obvious errors that made me shout "arghh!" when reading it. They gave a daft review of the X5 as well I thought, if it's the same test I'm thinking of.

    I know someone who has done a bit of freelance work for them and he says that they don't really fully test ride the bikes properly at all and I think this sort of shows when you read their reviews.

    I mean, how hard is it to swap a stem ffs! If it doesn't fit, change it! They're always on about stem lengths and riser bars, which you'll most likely swap before ever riding the bike anyway, even if it's not a custom bike!

    But then as you say, mags are just for drooling at pictures and inspiring you to ride. If you were after a bike, you'd test ride it and make your own mind up...

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: esquire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,653

    Huh????

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian
    MBR is great. High quality mag, awesome reviews, straight shooting. They tell it like it is, while the American like MBA pander to industry, give shallow reviews, and never clearly explain negative points about specific bikes. MBR pans crappy out of date bikes like Marins for the right reasons, and tell you why. MBA "loves" Marins, but dont tell you about overly high bottom brakets and out dated geometry.
    Nuff said.
    Christian
    MBA panders to the industry, but MBR gave 2 "9" ratings and 2 "10" ratings? Did I miss something, did the range suddenly go from 1-10, to 8-10?

    I agree that MBA does pander to the industry, but it seems to me that MBR did the same thing in their numbers but threw a small rock at them at the same time, leaving me with the question as to why? If they really believe what they wrote, then they should compare a Specialized Enduro and Giant Reign to these 4 bikes and I guess I'd assume that those 2 bikes would also get 9's and 10's? Then who's pandering to the industry?

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    516
    Come on guys, MBR is rubbish. I'll try and find the thing in one I read about 'How to speak like an American MTB'er'. I have never heard so much rubbish, or any American speak in such a way. If I can find it I'll scan and post it.
    MBR panders completely to Specialized, always has. WhatMTB is slightly better in the UK, IMHO, and Singletrack is the cliquey mag, like Dirtrag, sort of.

  37. #37
    Flyin Canine
    Reputation: shanedawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,288
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian
    MBR is great. High quality mag, awesome reviews, straight shooting. They tell it like it is, while the American like MBA pander to industry, give shallow reviews, and never clearly explain negative points about specific bikes. MBR pans crappy out of date bikes like Marins for the right reasons, and tell you why. MBA "loves" Marins, but dont tell you about overly high bottom brakets and out dated geometry.
    Nuff said.
    Christian
    Yeah, whatever. They're straight shooting morons. As some others have said here, if you're a magazine editor and your job at hand is to test a "frame" and compare it to other "frames" in the test, why on earth would you test one bike built up with Diablous parts and then judge it's trailbike abilities as poor? Then test other bikes built up with much lighter trailbike/XC parts and say their abilities to be used as a trailbike are superior? This is just plain dumb and lazy.

    And what's your point about MBA anyway. I think you would have a very hard time finding anybody on this board who feels MBA has valid reviews. To me it seems like you are taking this as a personal attack on the UK and trying to twist it to say that we like american mags better. This is just not the case.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    108

    What do you read then...

    If MBR and MBA are crap, what do you read and why?

  39. #39
    Leash Law Enforcer
    Reputation: Pinch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by shanedawg
    Yeah, whatever. They're straight shooting morons. As some others have said here, if you're a magazine editor and your job at hand is to test a "frame" and compare it to other "frames" in the test, why on earth would you test one bike built up with Diablous parts and then judge it's trailbike abilities as poor? Then test other bikes built up with much lighter trailbike/XC parts and say their abilities to be used as a trailbike are superior? This is just plain dumb and lazy.
    Dumb? Yes. Lazy? Not necessarily. In most cases, these bikes go to the mags decked out with the components that the manufacturer feels best showcase the bike's ability. So, it would seem that if the bike doesn't feel good (or as good as another) part of the blame may rest with a manufacturer who sent the bike in with a dumb spec (not saying that is the case here). I am sure that the editors and authors of these mags have a lot of other things to do besides tearing down one bike and building up another. It is dumb on the mag's part if they do not recognize this and say so in the reviews. But I wouldn't call them lazy.

    It would be great to see the manufacturers all agree on a common set of components to be used so that the frames could get equal play/testing and an honest write up. But, that will never happen.

  40. #40
    Outcast
    Reputation: Renegade's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    8,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian
    If MBR and MBA are crap, what do you read and why?
    I usually read pornography, you know, for the in depth articles. If I want to read a fiction magazine, then MBA fits that description.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rich9000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    94

    ... and if we just ... Dang journalists

    Most reviews need to be taken with a huge grain of salt..

    I used to live with a ski mag journalist, great guy, enthusiastic and a good mtber but could spin a whole lot of BS and didn't have a technical bone in his body. I think that description fits most journos in the industry. They can write very pretty words, go on sponsored holidays but they don't have ability to technical critique.

    Most reviews have zilch analytical thought, just a few buzzwords (like Horst Link ) thrown in, cause a press release told to mention it.

    Singletrack and Dirtrag seem to be the best of the bunch cause they have been set up by bike geeks.

    <rant/>

    Rich

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    1,050
    A few years ago two of mates went out for a ride with the MBR reviewers Iwon;t say where.
    well one would think that guys that ride bikes for a living and then write about them should be pretty good technically....................WRONG!

    They mamby pambied their way along the trails, one gimp on a Turner and the other riding a Spec.
    Mt mates were on a hardtail and softtail respectively and left them for dust.

    Then the secret, they don;t ride most bike for very long at all! Instead they compile a host of opinions from various sources and then check their opinion - based on a very short 30min ride - to these and write an article.

    Of course they have to shorten the stem and fit riser bars to everything that comes athrough their offices...


    ALl I'm saying is that a Magazine review has absolutely no value to the consumer unless the rider reviewing it is the same person buying the bike. A magazine reported has to pander to deadlines and commercial pressure and balance their personal taste against that.
    What I hate about MBR is that they try to indoctrinate you to believe that you have to have riser bars, a short stem before a bike works,
    MBA are irritating in that they prejudge a machine based on;

    1) Is a Horst link present - Start scoring at 5/5
    2) If Horst link not present - Start scoring at 4/5

    Which absolute BS since the presence of a Horst link has no bearing on the ultimate performance of the bike in relation to what the consumer actually wants.

    What they are trying to do it tell you what you want and I think thats wrong.

  43. #43
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,745

    So frickin' funny

    The homers just disparage the magazine because they don't like what it had to say LMFAO. Come on, guys, they have a right to like the other bikes better than the Turner. No morons at all. The Moment and Nomad are fantastic bikes!

    Earth to homers! The Turner is not the best bike on the planet. It is one of the best bikes on the planet.

    Jaybo

  44. #44
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,745

    To some they are all crap

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian
    If MBR and MBA are crap, what do you read and why?
    If you they write something they don't agree with because we know they are all knowing about this sport. MBR and MBA are fine. I don't always agree with their reports but it is entertaining nonetheless. Yes, I do think they pander to companies, at times. They just love bikes and write that. I mean, sheesh, they like a VPP bike. What! That semi active bike. Geeze! Laugh. These guys want every magazine to state Turner as being the best...it is funny. TNT is going to rock their world when mags. write about brake jack. It should be interesting.

    Jaybo

  45. #45
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,132
    I strongly disagree JB. We saw the same trend of comments about the lack of consistancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, when they were raving about the 5 Spot.

    Every now and then somebody associates too much value to a mag review. (usually someone who just got a new bike and/or has few posts) but for the most part people here have been very realistic about mag reviews: The reviews have limited information and perspective.

    Here's two examples of how people qualified MBR's previous glowing reviews:
    Six Pack Review
    2004 5 Spot Review

    What I have an issue with is when people imagine and then project some dispariging trait on the entre forum. Example

    If someone said something you feel is wrong, why not take it up with that person? Saying we're all at fault is very unfair.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-01-2005 at 09:38 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The homers just disparage the magazine because they don't like what it had to say LMFAO. Come on, guys, they have a right to like the other bikes better than the Turner. No morons at all. The Moment and Nomad are fantastic bikes!

    Earth to homers! The Turner is not the best bike on the planet. It is one of the best bikes on the planet.

    Jaybo
    Hey friend's i'm a santacruz fan and what i have to say is all boutiqe companys are the same in quality it's just us that loves diffrent things .I say santacruz,intese,turner,ELLS are bassicly the same they all beautiful bikes ...But santacruz VPP'S are killers.All of you just ride and have fan.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,996

    Money Saver

    SNIP: And according to them, a Giro Zen helmet will cure all ill handling traits. (Brad)

    Cool! I just got a Zen at closeout prices. Now I can quit agonizing all winter over whether I should cough up the scratch for a new ride! I hope the handling improvements included with the lid also include the ability to land higher drops to the flats.

  48. #48
    Bike to the Bone...
    Reputation: rzozaya1969's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    8,293
    Quote Originally Posted by zicko
    Hey friend's i'm a santacruz fan and what i have to say is all boutiqe companys are the same in quality it's just us that loves diffrent things .I say santacruz,intese,turner,ELLS are bassicly the same they all beautiful bikes ...But santacruz VPP'S are killers.All of you just ride and have fan.
    ??? If you say that all of those bikes are the same, how come you say santacruz are killers? I think that a lot of bikes are pretty good, but some feel different, and some have preferences, both in riding traits, and some 'perceived'.

    I think Santa Cruz is pretty nice in quality and ride, but I don't think it's the best one, but other may differ. Well, just ramblin' on. Have fun!

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,558
    Hey Zilla, I agree with you but for once I have to give a bit of credit to JB even if I'm not too happy to admit it! (haha no offence Jaybo)

    Well I think it is a known fact that there are A LOT of people on MTBR that lurk in the Turner forum even if they don't own a Turner because it's here that we get the most info, interesting info and usually objective info.

    However, for some reason, this horst link story seems to have somehow degenerated in such a way that I (and I'm sure many others) are starting to be dissapointed with the reaction of Homers towards Turner bikes. It seems like when Turner bikes reigned supreme, Turner owners were able to comment more objectively but now that there is some "critics" on Turner bikes then the comments of owners tend to be much more defensive.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL homers and I'm not saying ALL the time, I'm just saying it's kind of a trend and I find it a bit sad because I don't want all my "cyberspace homer friends" to become defensive and to try and save Turner's reputation everytime there is a post that kind of puts Turner bike on an equal or lower level to it's competition.

    I hope you understand what I mean and I'm sure far from wanting to leave this forum however I sure hope these horst link stories will stop soon and I sure hope Turner homers will understand that it is not a problem if the 6pack got "only" 9/10 in an MBR review and the Nomad/Moment got 10/10, there will still be plenty of buyers that will go for the 6pack advantages like customer care instead of what Ells or SantaCruz has to offer.

    Anyway, hope I didn't bore you guys too much. Please don't change the way you've always been, let's get back to the positive type of discussion we were having here a few months ago. If there is something I'm angry at David Turner about, it's not because he changed the pivot location and the effect it may or may not have on the bike, it's because doing so he has created a revolution on the best, most informative and fun forum on MTBR. Shame on you DT, you should come here and tell us you are sorry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I strongly disagree JB. We saw the same trend of comments about the lack of consistancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, when they were raving about the 5 Spot.

    Every now and then somebody associates too much value to a mag review. (usually someone who just got a new bike and/or has few posts) but for the most part people here have been very realistic about mag reviews: The reviews have limited information and perspective.

    Here's two examples of how people qualified MBR's previous glowing reviews:
    Six Pack Review
    2004 5 Spot Review

    What I have an issue with is when people imagine and then project some dispariging trait on the entre forum. Example

    If someone said something you feel is wrong, why not take it up with that person? Saying we're all at fault is very unfair.

  50. #50
    83 feet less per minute
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    731
    I buy some of the mags too. I guess I can't get enough information about bikes even when I know that some of it is just crap. Would be kind of neat to read a mag (maybe a webzine) where people I really think are objective (Ventanarama, Tscheezy, Squeak, Ciclistagonzo, Sherwood, DT, AJR, etc) could ride, test, compare different bikes. Sure these guys have preferences and some have vested interests, but they all seem to like to try something new and compare it to what they know. I trust their input much more than anyone at the bike mags.
    I'm really surprised when someone at the mags actually agrees with some of my experiences. Like when Kenda tires are actually rated highly. Or Ventana or Turner are given high marks. Too long a rant, I know, but is anyone else impressed when a mag states that a certain model of a bike has a crappy fork (to meet the pricing point), but has full Shimano components (as if there were no difference between XTR and Alivio!). At these times, I'm so glad this forum exists. Even with trolls and posters who aren't please with anything, you can glean very useful information from the posts. Now if we could just get it in print with glossy photos.
    Want to ride in this life and the next? Ask me how.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,996
    Banzai Snip: Shame on you DT, you should come here and tell us you are sorry!

    Yeah, or at least take 10 and give us the inside skinny from your point of view (and also explain the lack of an XL Highline)!

  52. #52
    Flyin Canine
    Reputation: shanedawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,288
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    Dumb? Yes. Lazy? Not necessarily. In most cases, these bikes go to the mags decked out with the components that the manufacturer feels best showcase the bike's ability. So, it would seem that if the bike doesn't feel good (or as good as another) part of the blame may rest with a manufacturer who sent the bike in with a dumb spec (not saying that is the case here). I am sure that the editors and authors of these mags have a lot of other things to do besides tearing down one bike and building up another. It is dumb on the mag's part if they do not recognize this and say so in the reviews. But I wouldn't call them lazy.

    It would be great to see the manufacturers all agree on a common set of components to be used so that the frames could get equal play/testing and an honest write up. But, that will never happen.
    Yeah I hear what your saying but it's not a hard problem to fix and for it to happen you gotta be a slacker. It seems to me a pretty simple thing for the magazine to get the bike setup how they want if they have a specific comparo in mind. I mean what exactly is happening here anyway? Did MBR call Turner and say "So Dave, we're doing a trailbike test next month, why don't you send us a bike decked out in freeride gear?" Or did Dave send the bike with Diablous even after they told him they were doing a trailbike test? Yeah, right! More than likely they just didn't give him any info, he or the UK distributor sent the bike for them to test setup with components that they thought would let it shine as a super burly/light freeride rig and MBR threw it in a test with other bikes on a whim even though the other bikes were setup a lot different.

    All of this is just guessing of course. Who knows what happened. The reality is that it makes the mag look bad, not Turner. Jaybo and the others can claim all they want about us homers doggin' the mag just cause they said a Turner was not best, but if the test criteria are flawed to begin with, how can you be satisfied with the resulting opinions?

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,558
    Please don't do this, you state my nickname and use only part of my statement making it look like I'm bashing on DT when I'm not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Banzai Snip: Shame on you DT, you should come here and tell us you are sorry!

    Yeah, or at least take 10 and give us the inside skinny from your point of view (and also explain the lack of an XL Highline)!

  54. #54
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,132
    BZ oops, I mean Banzai
    Your posts are always thoughtful and considerate.

    I won't contest that there is an increase in sensitivity by many...me too... OTOH there's been a proportional spike in pot-stirring and troll baiting as well. But I agree there are whiny babies on both sides, though.

    If anyone were to go into any other forum and post "You guys are so [insert overblown or wildly inaccurate negative observation]" I'm sure there'd be some pushback.(happens all the time actually)

    Anyway, you're right. It's a forum everone has a right to make assertions.

    Here you go JB, the microphone is all yours (snatch-back) OH HELL NO! (J/K)
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,558
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    BZ oops, I mean Banzai
    Your posts are always thoughtful and considerate.
    Don't get me cranky here BigZ, I can be as bad as others, ho but then again, no, I like you too much for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Here you go JB, the microphone is all yours (snatch-back) OH HELL NO! (J/K)
    "(snatch-back) OH HELL NO", that part I support 100%, but it's not me who wrote it!

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    52
    Quote Originally Posted by rzozaya1969
    ??? If you say that all of those bikes are the same, how come you say santacruz are killers? I think that a lot of bikes are pretty good, but some feel different, and some have preferences, both in riding traits, and some 'perceived'.

    I think Santa Cruz is pretty nice in quality and ride, but I don't think it's the best one, but other may differ. Well, just ramblin' on. Have fun!
    Hey,what i said is that all those companys are the same it's us that like diffrent things.For me it's santacruz for you turner and for anther one it's intense,but all that matter is the fun of riding those bikes,have fun all.

  57. #57
    Chaplin Turner Overdrive
    Reputation: HollywoodUK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    125
    Lawdy, chill out people! I posted the review because it was some new magazine copy on a "new" Turner and there hasn't been much of that since the change from HL to FB. It is MBR, take it with a pinch of salt like you would with any review in a magazine. Maybe the guy did like the Nomad better, who cares - it's just an opinion after all.

    On the subject of magazines - be grateful you're not a regular on the Singletrack mag forum. Unless you want to know the best place to buy an ipod or which obscure component manufacturer is today's must-have for your rigid steel singlespeed.

    Banzai - I'll scan the rest of the review and post / PM it. The Nomad does look nice - I just wonder about those pivots in a climate like yours and mine after the reported troubles with Blurs etc...

    Nick

  58. #58
    Knomer
    Reputation: Dusty Bottoms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,373
    That review was a great read. It appears they gave each design it's due, but seemed to like the ride quality of the 4 bar and vpp designs instead of single pivot. Good stuff!
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    145

    well said zicko

    Quote Originally Posted by zicko
    Hey friend's i'm a santacruz fan and what i have to say is all boutiqe companys are the same in quality it's just us that loves diffrent things .I say santacruz,intese,turner,ELLS are bassicly the same they all beautiful bikes ...But santacruz VPP'S are killers.All of you just ride and have fan.
    you know he's right they are all speicial to the people who own or buy them mag reviews only pucker are interest i own a 5spot and a bullit first seen in mags here in the uk and from america and at the end of the day i read looked and tryed till i found the one's i wanted all the magazine articals did were get me interested i like reviews they make me want to try new thing in the sport i love some times it works out other times i just waste my money till the next review comes a long like now sram xo mech and shifters ive got xt and xtr but no the reviewer said they were great so ive gotta give a go may be im just a mug but i don't care it's what i work far to read buy and ride my 2cents worth bat.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,558
    Yeaaa, thanks Nick, you will save me $13 canadian which is about 6 UK pounds! Can't wait to read the rest of the review even if it is biased, non objective and full of BS it is still very entertaining! Yes I'm specially worried about creaking, I would not care having to change the bearings 2 times a year but creaks are just unbearable


    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodUK
    Lawdy, chill out people! I posted the review because it was some new magazine copy on a "new" Turner and there hasn't been much of that since the change from HL to FB. It is MBR, take it with a pinch of salt like you would with any review in a magazine. Maybe the guy did like the Nomad better, who cares - it's just an opinion after all.

    On the subject of magazines - be grateful you're not a regular on the Singletrack mag forum. Unless you want to know the best place to buy an ipod or which obscure component manufacturer is today's must-have for your rigid steel singlespeed.

    Banzai - I'll scan the rest of the review and post / PM it. The Nomad does look nice - I just wonder about those pivots in a climate like yours and mine after the reported troubles with Blurs etc...

    Nick

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,558
    Anyone knows which issue of MBR has the review posted in this thread? I'm just back from the magazine store and they finally had the November issue but it did not contain the famous review. I had checked also the October issue, not there. So my only hope is that one of you has this issue and will post here. Maybe the original poster made a mistake and it was not from MBR or it is and I have to wait for the December issue to come out. Thanks.

  62. #62
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,132
    Well the scan in the beginning of this thread has "MBR" at the bottom of every page so it must be the right mag. Maybe check the mag's website for month/article content.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-13-2005 at 07:41 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,495
    It is interesting the Nomad shines so bright in this review, when I have read reviews that stated the Nomad seemed rather sluggish and unresponsive in other tests. MBA has always held Ellsworth and Santa Cruz in high regard, regardless of the quality of the product.

    For what it is worth, I would take a Pack or Moment over a Nomad any day. I disagree with the first paragraph of the article, because there are certain elements with boutique brands that you can't get with most mass produced bikes. Attention to detail, material quality, and frame stiffness are where most companies fall short when compared to boutique brands. Note that I said, most companies and not all don't compare to boutique brands. Devinci is one exception imo.

  64. #64
    trail fairy
    Reputation: trailadvent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    9,554
    Hay we all know they're great bikes, I thought we were all smart enough to build our own frames up they we like em, that's why we don't ride OEM specced bikes, who cares what the dam magazines think course theyre paid by the bigger compaines its called advertising shiat happens its called consumerisim! Is there such a word huh?

    Anyway dudes you know yr Turner is all good TNT and all, smile and let the sun shine in dudes, peace

    Its does make laugh that these mags can't specc bikes comparitively for an apples to apples comparison, generally my take on it with these dudes is theyre very XC orientated, course it may have something to do where they ride!

    Riding around an office dosen't really count does it, taking a break for a quick coffee fix before giving the stationary test to how well the suspension action works.

    Since as most of there readers are from the normal world that the rest of us have forgotten about since we get to enjoy our boutique snobness, its a harsh reality check to those readers if they were to tell the truth about how big the difference is to the ride quality of these quality machines.
    Last edited by trailadvent; 11-13-2005 at 11:03 PM.
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

    MAXXIS 4C!
    Helmet for your neck

    Leatt FAQs


  65. #65
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,745

    I give up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I strongly disagree JB. We saw the same trend of comments about the lack of consistancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, when they were raving about the 5 Spot.

    Every now and then somebody associates too much value to a mag review. (usually someone who just got a new bike and/or has few posts) but for the most part people here have been very realistic about mag reviews: The reviews have limited information and perspective.

    Here's two examples of how people qualified MBR's previous glowing reviews:
    Six Pack Review
    2004 5 Spot Review

    What I have an issue with is when people imagine and then project some dispariging trait on the entre forum. Example

    If someone said something you feel is wrong, why not take it up with that person? Saying we're all at fault is very unfair.
    You seem like a good guy but your homerism is insufferable.

    Jaybo

  66. #66
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,745

    I've ridden a Nomad

    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    It is interesting the Nomad shines so bright in this review, when I have read reviews that stated the Nomad seemed rather sluggish and unresponsive in other tests. MBA has always held Ellsworth and Santa Cruz in high regard, regardless of the quality of the product.

    For what it is worth, I would take a Pack or Moment over a Nomad any day. I disagree with the first paragraph of the article, because there are certain elements with boutique brands that you can't get with most mass produced bikes. Attention to detail, material quality, and frame stiffness are where most companies fall short when compared to boutique brands. Note that I said, most companies and not all don't compare to boutique brands. Devinci is one exception imo.
    With a Fox 36. It is an incredible bike! Incredible! Can you say incredible? I thought you could. It is unbelievable. It just blasts my Spot going downhill. Uphill it is a bit of a pig that doesn't climb as well. Anywa, I would also take a Pack over Nomad because Santa Cruz has some pivot problems that would drive me nuts; however, the Nomad is a great bike performance wise. I would love to ride a Moment.

    Jaybo

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,495
    Incredible! With the long wheel base and ample travel, I don't doubt the dh qualities of the Nomad. I also don't trust the tendencies of the pivots on the SC vpp bikes. I am not saying the Nomad is not a good bike, but for my tastes, I prefer a HL or faux bar over vpp suspension.

  68. #68
    Registered Dietitian
    Reputation: tommyrod74's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    1,600

    The Nomad is a great bike...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    With a Fox 36. It is an incredible bike! Incredible! Can you say incredible? I thought you could. It is unbelievable. Jaybo
    ...we have one at our shop as a demo, and it's killer. But the truth is, they should have made it less slacked out- with a Z150 or taller fork (Vanilla 36, anyone?) it has angles over a degree slacker than a Pack (both head and seat angle, ESPECIALLY seat angle) and this limits its all-around usefulness unless you run a PIke or similar.
    Registered Dietitian, Cycling Coach, Ascend Nutrition and Coaching

    www.ascendthepeak.com

    www.facebook.com/ascendthepeak

  69. #69
    dr.harmonica
    Reputation: oyvind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    My only gripe is how so many frame reviews seem to talk about poor component selection, then go on to review the bike in a setup that they've already asserted is holding the bike back. Don't they have a few stems and tires lying around?

    Anyway it's always good to have another review to look at. (but I know we prefer user reviews *cough*MTBR*cough*)

    Thanks!
    They spend almost the whole test just telling you how this weld and that spec looks. What about the ride caracteristics, how the suspension works through the travel, how they dialled in the shocks to get different caracteristics?

    I do not care if the say good or bad things about Turner or any other brand, their tests lacks so many things.They do more of a review than test. I've stopped my subscription and will probably buy it occasionally from now on. They have some nice pictures here and there and the magazine works great for just spending time on doing nothing.

    I must say that I'm fascinated about how they manage to give the Specialized Enduro a great review when they at the same time say that the geometry was way off because of the fork length. They had to switch lots of things to get it the way they wanted it to be, but it still got a good review. What about that? (I have not tried it myself so I have nothing to say about this bike)

    I think they were much better a few years ago.
    --
    Oyvind
    terrengsykkel.no

  70. #70
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,745

    Always a balance point

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74
    ...we have one at our shop as a demo, and it's killer. But the truth is, they should have made it less slacked out- with a Z150 or taller fork (Vanilla 36, anyone?) it has angles over a degree slacker than a Pack (both head and seat angle, ESPECIALLY seat angle) and this limits its all-around usefulness unless you run a PIke or similar.
    I agree. Maybe that is why the Nomad felt so slugglish while climbing, besides weight. However, there is always a give and take with geometry. For example, my Spot doesn't climb as well as my old Tracer but it descends A LOT better. It doesn't handle tight turns in the woods nearly as well as the Tracer but it a lot more stable. It sounds like Santa Cruz may have went a touch to slack on this bike for all around riding, particularly climbing.

    Jaybo

  71. #71
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    27,346
    Quote Originally Posted by oyvind
    They spend almost the whole test just telling you how this weld and that spec looks. What about the ride caracteristics, how the suspension works through the travel, how they dialled in the shocks to get different caracteristics?
    Most magazines do not do this anymore.

    They'll make vague comments on the topic, but they don't do much comparission with rides, never really rate it on any kind of usefull scale, and you end up not having any clue as to how it performs relative to other bikes on the market, which makes the entire thing pretty useless.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •