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  1. #1
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    Please Read This. a open letter to all turner homers

    first off, you may not agree with some or any of the following and if so, cool. well acctually, not so cool. ill try and explain. yer all pissed and i hear ya. ive been sayin we needed a real world test ride of tnt and we kinda got one with the help of a few good riders in unfamilliar land on a short time frame with thumb nail set ups at best. guess my point was that we had a start at somethin real here instead of the steady flow of knee jerk reactions. yet as far as i know, thats all we have. a start, a single opinion with the input of 3 other riders and thats not much to go on. id include davids asphalt test but thats not what id call real. i was simply excited to see what i hoped would be the end of all this reactionary bs but like so many other times, i was wrong. allow me to revisit a few things i continue to believe to be important:

    we really dont know what tnt will ride like on a turner built frame under a variety of riders on a variety of trails on properly set up bikes. without that its all a very narrow path to a assumed truth. to compare it to any other bike presently built is a dis-service to us all due to the fact that there are far to many finite elements in single frame to make a blanket statement for all frames, no matter how similar they may seem on paper or in a photo. continuing down this path could ruin turner bicycles by simple negitive press and word of mouth. please realize this is exactly whats going on in here.

    we dont have what id call a official position on davids reasoning for this change and i dont think ones comming anytime soon. i have my ideas and some splintered facts but to share them would be more assumption and that doesnt help anyone, specially turner bicycles.

    the poll you all speak of, which i never saw, seems to me to be a huge error in everyones judgment, perhaps davids more than anyone else for his presentation of it and his lack of forethought to where it might lead without better clarification of its intended purpous, if indeed it was some type of litmus test for tnt's acceptance. however, continuing to pound it into submission is of no positive direction and could further tarnish a mostly otherwise golden career and successful company. remember folks, some polls have sharp tips and we dont want this one turned on eachother in some lame battle to feel better about all this horst link/single pivot/ four bar/faux bar/tnt/us/them crap.

    look guys. i understand this is a big deal to us all and theres not many choices as what to do from our end of things. one is to wait it out and not make things worse for ourselves as customers, the turner dealers or turner bicycles itself. the other is to keep all this wondering in the dark, reactionary, uninformed crap up and help bury a man we respect, a bike we love and a company we count on. what do ya say? my vote in this is a new punch in the ballot. canidate "c" if you will. i vote to give it a rest, test ride a tnt turner and make up my own mind instead of wollowing in assumptions and unbased ridicule. care to join me?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  2. #2
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    Irrational Beligerance

    All the complaining about a design change that your messiah has chosen seems to me like hearing Moses recite the commandments and then railing in objection to them. Maybe that's what people did at that point. Yes, give TNT an open minded objective chance instead of acting like you know there is this one ideal way to design a FS bike. Quit your whining grief, enjoy the Turner you own without acting like it has a pox because new production has changed. Stop acting like children, instead complain as loudly about your elected officials when they don't do their job. You naysayers remind me that you have way more time on your hands to keep writing in this forum than I ever will care to spend reading it. You have proven, most clearly, why not to read your kvetching drivel. Pull yourselves together. Buy a Titus if that link is the grail. Oh, I almost forgot, you OWN a Turner with that link but are still, amazingly, unhappy because you have been BETRAYED BY YOUR GOD! Are your lives so empty of security and meaning?

    Wyatt

  3. #3
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
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    Oh look temporary trolls....that's a new one.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  4. #4
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    maybe this was a bad idea

    so far inside of what, 1/2 hour or so, we have more hostility and that wasnt my intention whatsoever. i didnt expect to fix anything, just give it a chance to take a break so we could all get back to the fun stuff. i also wasnt lookin for a single response from anyone. i only wanted to speak my mind. perhaps its best if you dont respond to this post. just read it and take from it what you will. thank you.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  5. #5
    Well Biked
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    I for one am pleased that the reviews have so far been very positive from I-bike.
    My last two bikes had the HL and they did not blow me away for geometry reasons. I am sure if I ended up with an 06 Spot with the DHX-A I would still feel as I do today...that my Spot is the best riding bike of it's class that I have thrown a leg over.
    And I would definitely look seriously at Turners if a longer travel bike is in my future.
    Geometry, fit and overall ride are the main considerations. And I don't see this going away anytime soon.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    so far inside of what, 1/2 hour or so, we have more hostility and that wasnt my intention whatsoever. i didnt expect to fix anything, just give it a chance to take a break so we could all get back to the fun stuff. i also wasnt lookin for a single response from anyone. i only wanted to speak my mind. perhaps its best if you dont respond to this post. just read it and take from it what you will. thank you.
    Hey, I'm with ya Cactus...

    Lot of people out there trying to stir things up.

    What I want to know is how'd that Highline ride! It looks schweet!

    Rich

  7. #7
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    Good post Cactus.

    Cheers,

    Duncan

  8. #8
    Feeding your addiction
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    Well said Cactuscorn. One thing to certainly consider right now....while we only had a short time on the bikes, and not in perfect conditions or setup, the conditions were the same for everything we tested. For example, we still came away from it liking the 6-Pack the best of all the bikes in it's class that we rode. I can also tell you that there were people who didn't even know about or notice the design change until after they rode the bikes (ie: dealers returning from test rides and commenting how much they liked the bikes and then asking if anything was changing from 05' to 06').

    I couldn't disagree more with the generalization that all HL bikes ride similarly and all faux-bar bikes ride the same. Execution of the design, geometry, stiffness, etc. all factor in to the way the bike rides, and this is where Turner excels over some of the lower priced big-brand stuff. You have to look at the whole package and determine what works best for you personally. A well executed faux-bar beats a mediocre (or ill fitting) HL any day IMO. In some cases there may be more similarities than differences, but they are still not the same.

    That's it for now, off for one more night of heavy sleep deprivation, partying, and staring at beautiful women

    Larry Mettler
    http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com
    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Oh look temporary trolls....that's a new one.
    ...OMG 'Zilla, you had me laughing so hard on that one....hilarious!


  10. #10
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    good stuff larry

    thanx for the added input larry. you clarified some important stuff as yet not know to us. quite interesting, but moreso, were these folks into riding or "sunny day riders" like so many shop owners/workers i know? was there any real disapointment in the new stuff? we may as well be honest. might make for a great and informative, yet sepperate thread.

    another point that might be worth making is how does the rest of the '06 turner lineup compare to other builders options you guys rode? could add some additional real world insite to all this hubbubb.

    lastly, i feel badly for all the "hard work" you guys are puttin in after hours. feel free to ask me for help next year. i miss the show and id be more than happy to take over those brutal post 5pm responcibilities so you can get yer beauty sleep. say hi to big jonny from drunk cyclist for me. just tell him tom says hi and to save me a large t-shirt.
    Last edited by cactuscorn; 09-30-2005 at 12:05 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
    No, I'm NOT back!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventanarama
    That's it for now, off for one more night of heavy sleep deprivation, partying, and staring at beautiful women
    ...thanks for "taking one" for the team!


  12. #12
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    I agree with Larry. We rode all those bikes on the same trails and the 6-Pack pretty much spanked the lot of them. Get some.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  13. #13
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    I will throw in my two cents.

    The horst link v. faux bar was discussed quite a bit several years ago among the Ventana guys. At that time Sherwood posted that he choose to go to a faux bar because he felt that is made little if any difference and that the gains in stiffness far outweighed any potential minor losses by going the faux-bar route. Don't forget, Sherwood had (has) the benifit of having build early Turner's, Ellworths, and continues to build protetypes for people. Accordingly, he gets to try a lot of designs.

    My other Penny. I keep seeing people saying, well why shouldn't I buy a Ventana now instead of a Turner. I will say why I didn't buy a Ventana when I bought my Burner after carefully thinking over the two. (BTW, I paid the full price of $1300 for the Burner, being one of the first to buy one). The Ventana's really tugged at my strings with their beautiful craftmenship, but their geometry didn't fit my needs. I don't like bikes with high bottom brackets, and the El Saltamontes had a .75" taller bottom bracket than the Burner. At the time it also had a 71 degree head angle and I wanted the more stable steering that a 70 degree head angle brought. Finally, the Seat tube angle at 71.3 degrees was in my opinion to shallow for my needs.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  14. #14
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    Reputation: CDtofer's Avatar
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    I dont think this thread was wasted at all Cactus...

    I read the post above by jncarpenter before reading yours and I definitely feel this one has merit. Aside from the Troll in the second post this is what I have been looking for the past couple days. This is the first thread I have read where 2 people that have actually rode the new bikes came back and said the new TnT bikes rode pretty good. In fact Tscheezy said the 6Pack was the best of the long travel bikes they rode. To hear that from someone who has a lot more experience riding DTs creations than I do sounds d*mn good to me after all the moaning that has been goping on here. I also agree with Jncarpenter when he says that the non Turner people should go away. We dont need to hear anymore people rant on how they wont buy a Turner now or any of the other nonsense.

    I know that I am for the most part a lurker and new to the Turner family but can we please get back to the inane commentary and the self depreciating humor that is usually on the board!
    Last edited by CDtofer; 09-30-2005 at 04:07 AM.

  15. #15
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    Thanks, 'corn!

    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    look guys. i understand this is a big deal to us all and theres not many choices as what to do from our end of things. one is to wait it out and not make things worse for ourselves as customers, the turner dealers or turner bicycles itself. the other is to keep all this wondering in the dark, reactionary, uninformed crap up and help bury a man we respect, a bike we love and a company we count on.
    I've been sitting on the sidelines for days thinking about many of the same issues you've raised. Thanks for putting your thoughts to print; they're cogent and reasonable. While the good ship Turner may have a leak with this TNT thing the last thing that's needed is people going around drilling holes in the hull.


  16. #16
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    remember folks, some polls have sharp tips and we dont want this one turned on eachother in some lame battle to feel better about all this horst link/single pivot/ four bar/faux bar/tnt/us/them crap.

    Okay, I'll bite my lip about TNT until I ride it if you take it easy with the mixed metaphors. Deal?
    A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.

  17. #17
    Flyin Canine
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyatt
    All the complaining about a design change that your messiah has chosen seems to me like hearing Moses recite the commandments and then railing in objection to them. Maybe that's what people did at that point. Yes, give TNT an open minded objective chance instead of acting like you know there is this one ideal way to design a FS bike. Quit your whining grief, enjoy the Turner you own without acting like it has a pox because new production has changed. Stop acting like children, instead complain as loudly about your elected officials when they don't do their job. You naysayers remind me that you have way more time on your hands to keep writing in this forum than I ever will care to spend reading it. You have proven, most clearly, why not to read your kvetching drivel. Pull yourselves together. Buy a Titus if that link is the grail. Oh, I almost forgot, you OWN a Turner with that link but are still, amazingly, unhappy because you have been BETRAYED BY YOUR GOD! Are your lives so empty of security and meaning?

    Wyatt
    This coming from the guy who said his Ventana X-5 pedaled like crap, until he went and spent extra money to get the float shock pushed. If your bike needed a band aid to ride the way you wanted it to and expected it to, then what possible reason could you have for coming over here to the turner board and wasting your time telling the current turner owners/future turner shoppers that this change is no big deal?

    You are also obviously unaware that many turner owners have the desire to own more than 1 turner. Just because someone already has a turner bike in their stable doesn't mean that they can't be concerned about the future design of the bikes that are on the market.

    The other thing you seem blind to is that it's not possible for many people to "give TNT an open minded objective chance". Quite a few Turner owners, including myself, never had an oppurtunity to test ride our bikes because there were no local dealers that stocked them. So what your suggesting is to buy an approx $2000 frame and risk losing around $600-800 dollars by selling it if we don't like it after our "test ride". I'm sorry, but that's just a dumb thing to suggest. The old design was so refined over the years that it was easier to buy one and trust that it was going to be great even if you could not test ride it. Now that the design is new, people are obviously nervous about plunking down that kind of cash .

    So as Zilla said, temporary trolls, your running into the turner board lately to try and stir up **** is obvious to everyone here because most of us have been here a long time. Your opinions are hollow because you do not understand the many facets of buying/owning a turner.

  18. #18
    MK_
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    I also liked the ride of the TNT Pack, and I was one of those guys who was unaware of the change until I got back home and yesterday started reading about the TNT. I was gone for good part of last month, therefore I completely missed the whole TNT trauma. At any rate, I wish I was aware of the change at I-bike and have ridden a 5* in order to compare it to mine. All in all, the issue I see with the TNT is that it is almost as good as HL 4-bar and very few people that spend $2K on a frame want to hear that. It might be mere 1.1mm of difference at the axle, yet it is 1.1mm from the nirvana of the classic and as someone who came to Turner when it was sporting the Horst Link, the TNT is simply inferior on paper.

    _MK
    .
    "No man goes before his time -- unless the boss leaves early."
    -- Marx, Groucho

  19. #19
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    Right on!

    Quote Originally Posted by shanedawg
    You are also obviously unaware that many turner owners have the desire to own more than 1 turner. Just because someone already has a turner bike in their stable doesn't mean that they can't be concerned about the future design of the bikes that are on the market.

    Your opinions are hollow because you do not understand the many facets of buying/owning a turner.
    Well put. I was going to build up a Flux for endurance racing. Being a 'Spot owner I would have bought a frame unridden and unseen and known what to expect in terms of the ride. Now prudence dictates that I wait a bit until people have had some more ride time on the two versions. Fortunately I live where demos are now possible so I will be doing that soon (I hope).


  20. #20
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    I rode both my "classic" Flux and a TNT Flux at the I-Bike demo and the TNT Flux handled identically (what truly distinguishes Turner from other bikes IMHO). Climbing traction seemed to be the same. I don't have the best calibrated butt in the world to tell if braking was any more or less effective in the dirt, but they both seemed to brake the same to me. Suspension action felt identical to me in the bumps and the bike pedaled the same. A poor shock setup will make a MUCH bigger difference in how the bike rides than a different pivot location on the dropout.

    I have been a H-L fan since my AMP B3 from 10+ years ago, and I have an emotional attachment to the classic Turner H-L execution. From the ride of the two versions, they could have been the same bike. Also, if you look at the Nitrous and previously the Stinger, you'll notice that the pivots are much closer to what EW does (probably to get around the FSR patent), so it's not like DT hasn't gone away from the design before. Besides, it was pleasing to me to not see ICT stickers on the '06 frames.

    I have no problem recommending the TNT Flux to a friend of mine that has been longing for a Flux after riding mine.

    Just my $0.02.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    I rode both my "classic" Flux and a TNT Flux at the I-Bike demo and the TNT Flux handled identically (what truly distinguishes Turner from other bikes IMHO). Climbing traction seemed to be the same. I don't have the best calibrated butt in the world to tell if braking was any more or less effective in the dirt, but they both seemed to brake the same to me. Suspension action felt identical to me in the bumps and the bike pedaled the same. A poor shock setup will make a MUCH bigger difference in how the bike rides than a different pivot location on the dropout.

    I have been a H-L fan since my AMP B3 from 10+ years ago, and I have an emotional attachment to the classic Turner H-L execution. From the ride of the two versions, they could have been the same bike. Also, if you look at the Nitrous and previously the Stinger, you'll notice that the pivots are much closer to what EW does (probably to get around the FSR patent), so it's not like DT hasn't gone away from the design before. Besides, it was pleasing to me to not see ICT stickers on the '06 frames.

    I have no problem recommending the TNT Flux to a friend of mine that has been longing for a Flux after riding mine.

    Just my $0.02.
    ........Thank you! It is refreshing to have some REAL WORLD comparative data to reference....FINALLY!


  22. #22
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    fair enough. but bein a loud mouthed moron, be sure to cut me a break if i slip up. still a deal?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  23. #23
    Never enough time to ride
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    It's good to hear that people are liking the new rear ends. I was pretty sure that DT would get it right, but I still had some reservations, and honestly still do until I can get a leg over one. The HL was one of the reasons I picked up my Burner, but it was like #9 on the list, well below Company Reputation, Customer Service etc...

    Looking forward to seeing more impressions on the new rear ends, and hopefully getting to throw a leg over one sometime (thinking 6-pack, grin keeps getting wider ). Until such time I will continue to enjoy my "outdated" old burner, and grin big all the way .


    happy trails...

    squish
    Get out and ride!

  24. #24
    ... I guess you won't be
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    I just got back w/ a 12-pack of Sam Adams Octoberfest on the back of my $5 garage sale cruiser from my in-town buddy to whom I convinced to actually buy a Flux....He isn't up on the mtbr stuff as much as you all, but he heard the hub-lub. I basically told him he would not notice the diff at all...but for you homers....:

    I used to race motocross, and those of you who grew up in the 80's racing MX, and ANYONE who ever threw a leg over a post 1983 CR Honda, knew what magical handiling those bikes had over all the other rice burners....I had suzukis, kawasakis, not a yamaha...but not one of those could ever hold a candle to the honda handling, no matter how much better the engine was!.....it's the same thing with the Turners. You can hang whatever suspension components on a frame, kit it out with whatever bits, even play around with tires, but if the tubes aren't welded together with that "special something" then you just won't get it....thats what I prize about all the Turners that I have owned and will continue to own, TNT included.....

    I think you all will have a big laugh over this months from now!

  25. #25
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    last thought

    its been almost a full 24 hours since my post. things started a bit badly but improved dramaticlly in the following hours. gotta tell ya i was real tempted to contact airwreck and ask him to concider removing this post in that first hour as i began to fell it was going to cause more harm than help out the situation.

    many of you wrote expressing your support and that was cool. others added great insight and that too was cool. the idea was to ask folks to concider thinkin in a new and more positve direction and i think that worked out ok.

    so thanx to everyone for takin the time. thats all i asked. lets ride our bikes and enjoy the smile no matter whose names on it or where it pivots or if it pivots at all.
    No, I'm NOT back!

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