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  1. #1
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    pivots from hell

    You guys first helped me when my new Nitrous pivots were loosening up. I cleaned everything, used blue loctite, and torqued them to 17 ft lbs. Now, I can't get the bloody things undone. They are so tight I broke an allen wrench and am worried about rounding out the bolt heads.

    Gotta say, so far I am unimpressed with the Turner bushing approach. A lot of the stiction has worked out but they still offer significantly more resistance than bearings and this latest business is really souring me on the concept or at least the Turner application.

    I hope somebody out there can help me with this.

    Feel free to respond here or to my e-mail: davek@zianet.com

    Thanks much

  2. #2
    No, that's not phonetic
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    So I assume you have 5mm allen head bolts, and not torx t40 bolts? What sort of allen broke? The ONLY thing I would use to loosen or tighten pivot bolts would be a high quality, snug fitting bit for a socket set, and use a nice long socket driver (and even with a cheater bar- I use an old flat handlebar ) to carefully apply pressure. Use both hands; one on the socket head to keep the bit lined up squarely with the bolt, and the other at the end of the driver arm. Even the most recalcitrant bolts have come free this way. When assembling with blue loctite, I apply it sparingly (one drop) to the threads. It does not take much to keep the bolt from backing out. I would only reassemble with t40 torx bolts. Turner should be able to send you some free of charge. I personally would never want the 5mm allen bolts on my bikes again. I never stripped one but it seemed dicey a few times.


    Good luck. Let us know how it comes along.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  3. #3
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    they're allen bolts

    It is a 5 mm allen bolt. I would be glad to change to torx if I ever get the dang allen bolts out. I am able to apply good solid pressure to the wrench and it is seated firmly deep in the bolt recess. Yet, I can not get any of the bolts to come loose.

    Perhaps, I used too much Loctite. If so, is there any way to break those things loose? If I round the heads out, I guess I will have to Dremmel them out. Any other suggestions?

    I appreciate your response.

  4. #4
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    Sometimes a whack with a hammer can get thing's started get a pin punch or a Allen head driver and give it a tap.
    It is only a couple of months since you fixed the bolt's do you really have to go in there again?
    Stay off the brakes

  5. #5
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    impact driver

    I've never tried it.....but do you have an impact driver fitted with an allen socket?
    (one of those things you hit with a hammer to remover rusty nuts!)

    Careful with the hammer if you do try it!
    Have you phoned Turner?

  6. #6
    gravity curmudgeon
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    I agree that Turner pivots can be hell. Here's one of the outcomes from a recent pivot maintenance effort (the torx head did not strip either):
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
    Anytime. Anywhere.
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    Torqued

    My lbs ended up having to drill out a couple of my pivot bolts after 2 torx bits were ruined. I am lucky that there are a Turner dealer and had replacement bolts in stock.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  8. #8
    Lay off the Levers
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    Geez! I'm blown away that an Aluminium bolt can break a steel bit.
    I had some factory bolts that were held by threadloc so tight I thought they'd never come out, but I never had a problem loosening blue loctite. Davek, did you say you're using a bit on a long wrench or are you using a multi tool or single driver? I use a inexpensive 18" breaker bar to crack the bolts loose.

    As Ts suggested you need a decent size lever-arm to be able to apply strong steady pressure. If you have to reef, the lever is probably too short.

    Sorry to hear about the frustration. I can see how it would be discouraging.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  9. #9
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    BZ- the bolts are steel. Pretty high grade steel too, iirc.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  10. #10
    gravity curmudgeon
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    The pivot bolts may be hard to impossible to get out ( ), but the part that grooves me out is that the bushings and everything looked new even though I've ridden the bike for a year (many miles) and bought it used. That's impressive.

    Now on my old blur, I could easilly remove the pivot bolts, but the insides were a mess, a horrible mess to be honest. I would consider a VPP bike again (ride is very nice) but would get into a monthly pivot maintenance schedule to start with and only back off on that if things were looking OK.

  11. #11
    Lay off the Levers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheezy
    ...the bolts are steel. Pretty high grade steel too, iirc.
    Ah HA! that explains quite a lot... uh, nevermind!
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 06-25-2006 at 06:12 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Ah HA! that explains quite a lot... uh, nevermind!
    BZ.... You getting old timers disease? I clearly remember TS pointing this out to you in another thread.

  13. #13
    Lay off the Levers
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    I missed that post... dammed ignore feature.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  14. #14
    Huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowDawg
    I agree that Turner pivots can be hell. Here's one of the outcomes from a recent pivot maintenance effort (the torx head did not strip either):

    Should've bought a craftsman. Unless ACE is like them and will give you a new one no questions asked

  15. #15
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    They will replace it, just like sears

  16. #16
    And then?
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    Hey TS

    What is the real deal with the torque specifications from Turner anyway? I'm a newbie that went through my first HL lubbing job - by dissassembling them. Sure it's a simple procedure but Turner still recommends 108 in-lbf for those and I found out the HARD WAY it was wrong by stripping one nut. Not a big deal since the hardware store got plenty of those little buggers...but still - IS IT POSSIBLE that we are over-torquing the other pivots as well?

    HL - 40 in-lbf NOT 108
    others - 204 in-lbf ???

    HELP
    "GO FISH OR GO HOME!"

  17. #17
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    thanks and more info

    I appreciate all the input.

    The first wrench I tried (and broke) was a socket-driven, hardenen cro moly 5 mm wrench. It looked exactly like the one somebody showed here of a torx wrench. I tried it again with a standard allen wrench with the long arm (6"). The wrench was bending and the bolt insides were just starting to round so I quit. By the way, the wrench itself is in good shape so that is not causing the rounding, just too much torque. There is no way that bolt head would take a18" torque arm.

    I liked the idea of an impact wrench. i will try to get a replacement for my socket drive 5 mm and then give it a go with an impact wrench, which I think I have laying around somewhere.

    To the guy who asked if I really need to get in there, the answer is not really until I realized I can't. Now, I have to get in there to know that I can and because I am concerned it will only get harder over time. The reason I started was that one of the o-rings seems to have gotten a little out of its position and I wanted to see about reseating it.

    Thanks again. I'll let you know how it turns out.

  18. #18
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    Turner recommends:

    17 ft-lbs for all pivots except Horst (main, rocker, seat stay)
    40 in-lbs for Horst links
    50 In-lbs for shock mounts

    Good Luck!!!!

  19. #19
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    Which loctite is it that doesn't like heat? Red or blue?

    Iirc, you can heat the loctite to boiling point and then it stops working. Maybe you could try to pour some boiling water on the pivot or heat the bolt in some way?

  20. #20
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    required torque

    17 ft lbs is what I used and that sure seems like a lot. It is definitely a lot more than I would typically use on that size bolt. It seems to contribute to the stiction because when I originally tightented those I probably used around 10 ft lbs and there was much less stiction but then, they loosened, so that was no good.

    Do you think that 17 is really necessary or is it overkill to ensure they don't loosen?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by davek

    Do you think that 17 is really necessary or is it overkill to ensure they don't loosen?
    The main pivot bolts can easily handle 17 ft-lbs. I think the torque is necessary and not overkill.

    Make sure that you're not confusingthe big pivots (17 ft-lbs) with the little HL bolts, which only require 40 in-lbs.... or with the shock mounting bolts that only require 50 in-lbs

    I never have issues loosening those bolts (except for the first time because Turner uses some mega strength thread lock). I always use blue loktite.

  22. #22
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    Sorry

    I am sorry that you are having a tough time with my pivot design. First thing to keep in mind is that unless they are clunking there is no need for a rebuild. It is not un-common for them to last for many years. When you want to break loose a thread loc'd bolt a SLOW steady turn is the best. Stiction, to me un-acceptable stiction is when the bike will not collapse under it's own weight with the help of one finger pressing on the seat with the shock removed. Most times a used bike will just fall when the top shock bolt is removed on it's own. Any bolts that you ruin when messing with your pivots will be replaced N-C just drop Greg@turnerbikes.com a note explaining your dilema.

    DT

  23. #23
    Anytime. Anywhere.
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    My Spot is 3 years old and has had grease pumped in a few times but was never apart before I replaced the rockers. The bike has seen some hard use but is not a daily ride, I have 4 bikes and the Spot is used when the going gets tough. When I unbolted the shock the frame colapsed on itself without any pressure. The pivots were all moving freely without any play. The mechanic said that the bushings still had about 75% of their life left. They have been submerged and coated with mud numerous times and are still it excellent condition. Besides from the stuck bolts this frame has been golden.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  24. #24
    "El Whatever"
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    Not to contradict DT and not to be a smart head...

    But if a slowly turn may not break loose the bolt and as a last resort, get a small head machinist's hammer. Tap LIGHTLY the allen wrench and I'm positive it will come out.

    Small continous taps will break it loose. Patience and love.
    Check my Site

  25. #25
    3 "fiddy" for short
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Not to contradict DT and not to be a smart head...

    You contradicting "smart head"!!!!!

  26. #26
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    It's hard to convey our own experience to other’s on the internet where 5 minutes actually getting "hand's on" will suffice.

    Warming thing's up with boiling hot water will help as the thread lock will get softer the warmer it is.

    Get some good socket driven tool's that will help (if you haven't got them)
    If not DT has offered some new bolt's so you can't loose.


    Or you could leave well alone and do a bit of riding

    Hope they pop for you.

    Personally they are the pivots from heaven, low maintenance and simple to maintain if you have to.
    Stay off the brakes

  27. #27
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by be350ka
    You contradicting "smart head"!!!!!
    Yeah... my bad...

    Sorry, ingles no my native lengua....
    Check my Site

  28. #28
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    3lb lump hammer, that will get it going

    Only kidding !!
    Stay off the brakes

  29. #29
    3 "fiddy" for short
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Yeah... my bad...

    Sorry, ingles no my native lengua....

    No worries man! I was just waiting for a similar response for my being a smart arse.

  30. #30
    Shovel Ready
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Anyone try a penetrating oil like PB Blaster? It works great on rusted and frozen bolts in general. I would think it would cut the thread lock used on these tough pivot bolts.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  31. #31
    ... I guess you won't be
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    maybe you need a witchdoctor!

    good luck breaking out of Alcatraz, D....

  32. #32
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    end game

    Here is the history of my trying to get the bolts out:


    1) Bolts were frozen in place so I tried a slow turn motion with a socket-driven 5 mm wrench. It twisted the bit in two without any sign that the bolt would budge.

    2) I tried turning all the pivot bolts with a 5 mm long-shank wrench and quit that when it was obvious that either the wrench would break or the heads would round out if I continued.

    3) I exchanged the broken socket for a new one and bought a another socket drive of a different kind.

    4) I tried the new sockets briefly without results and then used a hammer-impact wrench to try to break them loose. I was hoping that the loctite just needed breaking and the bolts would loosen. No luck.

    5) I bought a cheap air impact wrench and tried that repeatedly, slowly raising the air pressure until I broke another socket after many many tries.

    6) Eventually, one of the main pivot bolts came loose and I was able to disassmble that pivot. None of the other bolts would come loose and eventually the heads rounded out even thought the socket head was still in good shape.

    7) Began drilling bolts out using successively larger bit sizes. Unlike when I have done this before, the bolt never released and I finally had to drill the full shank size. The remaining part of the bolt head fell off and I was able to remove the pivot axles.

    So, It is apart now but the problem is I have bolt threads still residing in the axles and I can think of no way to get the threads out and recover those axles. The axles and rocker arms were not damaged in this process.

    I am hoping that Turner will help me out with new axles since I can't think of how to get ther remaining bolts bits out of mine.

    By the way, I didn't want to try solvents and some of the other methods helpful contributors mentioned because I was concerned they would damage the bushings.

    Thanks one and all for helping with this. It was a royal pain but now that I have it all apart, at least I know the end is in sight and soon I will be riding this fine machine again.

    Dave

  33. #33
    No, that's not phonetic
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    You poor man. What a seriously nasty adventure you have had. I really hope that Turner sends you not only a complete set of new pivot hardware, but a nice jersey and a pint glass too. I love to tinker with bikes, but I wonder if I'd have the guts to start drilling out my pivots. Good job.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  34. #34
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    thanks again

    Man, I can't believe people are up and watching this forum at this hour! I am only up because I have irrigation water and I have to deal with it all night.

    Anyway, yeah, drillling was an absolute last (and scary resort) but I have been mechanicing a long time and was pretty confident I could do it without hurting any of the other pieces. Definitely took the stress level up pretty high when I set to drilling on my almost new dream bike!

    I was out of options at that point anyway other than sending the whole frame back to Turner to see what they could do.

    Glad to be done that and ready to reassemble when I get axles and new bolts. One thig is for sure, I will use the loctite sparingly next time.

    I very much appreciate yours and everybody else's input. It's great to know that help is out there when I need it. Really nice that Turner responded as well. That says a heck of a lot about the company and the man.

    Dave

  35. #35
    Team Blindspot
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    You poor man. What a seriously nasty adventure you have had. I really hope that Turner sends you not only a complete set of new pivot hardware, but a nice jersey and a pint glass too. I love to tinker with bikes, but I wonder if I'd have the guts to start drilling out my pivots. Good job.


    They have Jerserys? How do I get one?

    I'd also have to reach a pretty high level of frustration to pick up a drill. I can think of a couple of alternatives before that point.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  36. #36
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    remember the last jersey design thread of cheese's? zipper/no zipper, etc, etc? dt told me last week they were bein shipped to turner that day and should be available very very soon. my guess is on the turner web site. maybe cheese or dt can confirm this.

    ill bet a beer the threads were coated in blue stuff. any takers? none the less, it would suck to be in his position. youll be back on it in no time davek.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  37. #37
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Yep, jerseys any minute now.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  38. #38
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    I had the same problem a few weeks ago on my main pivot. Had to drill out the bolt head to get it out. I was not worried about saving the bushing though sicne I was replacing it anyway. The new bolts that came in the rebuild kit already had a small drop of light brown thread loc on them so if you order a new main pivot kit (see link below) you should not need to use any loc-tite of your own. It was also interesting to note that the Horst bushings had grooves in them just like the large bushing. That was a nice surprise since I had planned on doing the Tscheezy mod on these. Nice to see DT incorporate others good ideas into his designs.

    http://www.turnerbikes.com/Merchant2...ry_Code=HDWARE

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV_XCE
    The new bolts that came in the rebuild kit already had a small drop of light brown thread loc on them so if you order a new main pivot kit (see link below) you should not need to use any loc-tite of your own.
    Personally, I'd be concerned about using the brown (green?) threadlock that is already on the replacement bolts. If it's the same threadlock that Turner uses on new bikes.... YIKES!!!

    I took Cheeze's recommendation to use a wire brush.... remove the grenn loctite.... and apply a small amount of blue loctite prior to assembly.

    I've never had any issues removing the bolts when they had the blue stuff on them. YMMV

  40. #40
    mtbr member
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    I've had good luck removing screws coated with lock tite by heating the heads using a mini torch like this: http://www.autobarn.net/solmj300.html
    I realize it's too late to try now so best of luck to you.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    remember the last jersey design thread of cheese's? zipper/no zipper, etc, etc? dt told me last week they were bein shipped to turner that day and should be available very very soon. my guess is on the turner web site. maybe cheese or dt can confirm this.
    .
    What!?!? You mean my limited edition MTBR Turner Forum Jersey is no longer a high-priced collectors' item worth big $$$ on Ebay? That jersey was my retirement nestegg! Now I'll have to wear it on the trail. Damn you, Ken Lay!

  42. #42
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    Drilling

    I have drilled more than a couple bolts out over the years and it is truly the last resort, just keep the bit centered and drill deeper than you think is needed on the BB pivot bolts. That way the rear will slide off without getting the inside faces of the chainstay ears scratched.
    The rockers just pop straight off.

    The dry loc material we used to use is spec'd to be in the same strength area as blue, even though it is not blue as the is the Loc Tite brand color for that level of strength.

    The stuff on the bolts in more recent shipments is re-useable. It is a nylon patch that is not supposed to tear off when removed so you should be able to re-use the bolt after a pivot cleaning. The patch is a polen color.

    If you damaged anything let Greg know.

    DT

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by justen
    What!?!? You mean my limited edition MTBR Turner Forum Jersey is no longer a high-priced collectors' item worth big $$$ on Ebay? That jersey was my retirement nestegg! Now I'll have to wear it on the trail. Damn you, Ken Lay!
    Relax. The Homer Jersey is a one of a kind. Turner is not selling those. You'll still be able to offer yours to the Smithsonian.

  44. #44
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by justen
    What!?!? You mean my limited edition MTBR Turner Forum Jersey is no longer a high-priced collectors' item worth big $$$ on Ebay? That jersey was my retirement nestegg! Now I'll have to wear it on the trail. Damn you, Ken Lay!
    Don't fear. The new jerseys look totally different. Far more subtle.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  45. #45
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    oh my sage. while on the subject of h/ware, whats yer take on replacin the 6 main torx bolts with high quality 6mm head ti stuf on a flux for a light weight guy such as, say, me? where does ti become a bad move weight wise? i installed some new bling on my return from the rockies but havent ridden it yet.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  46. #46
    "El Whatever"
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    Isn't some copper based antiseize an option?

    Titus recommends grease on the HL pivots bolts (not loctite), which have a similar construction to Turner's main pivots (sans grease port).

    Not long ago, some people had the opposite problem with their Motolites, which is that the drive-side was coming loose. Apparently some people have solved this issue replacing grease with anti-seize and proper torque.

    It may help. I think it would be worth a try.
    Check my Site

  47. #47
    over researcher
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowDawg
    I agree that Turner pivots can be hell. Here's one of the outcomes from a recent pivot maintenance effort (the torx head did not strip either):
    An Ace brand tool actually broke? I'm utterly shocked!

  48. #48
    gravity curmudgeon
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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    An Ace brand tool actually broke? I'm utterly shocked!
    Ace has some good stuff, esp. if you live in more rural places. Regardless it is kind of like Tawain made bike frames. Most tools are made in the same place anyway.

  49. #49
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    FWIW, I've been using the blue loctite that comes in solid form. It looks like a big container of chapstick and twists out the same way. In addition to being easier to use than liquid loctite, I've found that it keeps bolts tight like it should, but is easier to break loose than blue liquid loctite. Might want to consider using it in the future.

  50. #50
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Don't fear. The new jerseys look totally different. Far more subtle.
    UGGHHH!!!

    No f'en zipper - AGAIN!

  51. #51
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    the last word??

    Well, Turner came through big time and sent me a complete rebuild kit. I left the bushings in because they were undamaged and replaced the axles and bolts in all main pivots (not the link on the seat stays). The new bolts come with a nylon-like material on some of the threads so you don't use Loctite anymore.

    Now, here's the interesting thing. When I reassembled and retorqued the new bolts (Torx 40 instead of 5mm allen), I found that the stictions is virtually gone. The stiction now is completely acceptable and I am sure it will not be anything that I can feel while riding.

    Anybody have any idea why the stiction was reduced? The new axles are darker color than the original and I am wondering if they have been impregnated with something to reduce friction. Anyway, I am glad it's done, pleased with the result, and very happy with Turner's customer service.

    Now, it's time to ride some more!

  52. #52
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    I get the feeling the stiction may have been the result of the originals being over torqued, which would explain the rounding and difficulty removing. Went through the same thing with my SO's burner and redid everything and it made her and the bike feel better.

    I think you will be happy now that you are more familiar with how the pivot system works, and how Turners CS rules. I went through a similar thing trying to figure out the pivot removal on my original bike and destroyed a pivot. Turner sent me new ones at no cost even though it was all my fault.

  53. #53
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    lubed by loctite???

    Well, I am not sure how I could have overtorqued them before since I was using the same torque wrench at the same setting.

    There was loctite on the bolt threads and probably some on the inner bolt surface where it contacts the rocker arm and the chain stays. I suppose it is possible that the loctite lubricated the bolts such that the same torque resulted in tighter bolts. Maybe??

  54. #54
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    Nice that you received a pivot rebuild kit. I apparently made the mistake of buying a rebuild kit prior to working on pivots (and then having similar problems). When I called Turner about the problems I was having with pivots, the response was more of a yeah that can happen and good luck. Oh well. I was just happy that someone called me back -- that seemed like good CS relative to some experienced I have had with other outdoor gear. You guys should consider yourself very fortunate.

  55. #55
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    Soldering iron

    Just for the record, heat the bolts with a sodlering iron if you have problems with loctite. Loctite® 243 (blue) only has half it's power left when heated to 100°C / 210°F. See graph "Hot strenght" on second page of this PDF, also note that extra heating is not necessary or better. Boiling water (as previously suggested) is a safer way not melting bushings but requires some place that can take the splashing.
    Regards,
    /Tobbe - In Mud We Thrust / Carpe Diem

  56. #56
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    I also suggested heating the bolt. :P

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketfuel
    I also suggested heating the bolt. :P
    Yeah, and I wrote "Boiling water (as previously suggested)". Sorry I was to lazy to find the correct nick to give credit. All my energy went finding that Tech spec from Loctite.
    Regards,
    /Tobbe - In Mud We Thrust / Carpe Diem

  58. #58
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    Thanks much for your advice and support. I got everything apart without damaging anything. I cannot think of how I could have gotten those apart without drilling so I am glad to have that over with.

    Greg sent me a full kit and I just finished my first ride on it. It is amazing how much the ride was improved now that there is no stiction. Truly night and day. I liked the bike before but now I love it.

    Thanks again.

    Dave

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