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  1. #1
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    original Burner geo. FYI FWIW

    about a week ago i got into a discussion about my trusty old '96 burner frame and how it compared to my '05 flux when others were makin the same comparisons with newer burner/xce frames. some folks had me convinced it might not be relevent to the discussion in terms of geometry and therefore ride qualities, so i thought id check it out and see how far off i am. well i finally tore it down, bolted on all my original parts im silly enough to keep, got out some measuring devices and took some notes. one thing to keep in mind is my crafstman bubble protractor isnt a digital so i could be off 1/2 deg somewhere. anyway, man was i ever suprised! heres what i came up with:

    ORIGINAL SPEC '96: 2.5” rear travel / 65mm front travel
    H/T ANGLE: 71 deg
    S/T ANGLE: 73.5 deg
    C/S LENGTH: 16.75”
    S/T INSIDE DIAMETER: 31.6mm
    F/D CLAMP DIAMETER: 34.9mm
    B/BKT HEIGHT: 12”
    T/T LENGTH: 22.5”
    S/T CENTER TO TOP: 17”
    H/T LENGTH: 4.25”
    WHEELBASE: 42.12”
    STANDOVER HEIGHT: 29.5”
    FORK AXLE TO CROWN: 17.35”

    compared to:

    ORIGINAL SPEC '04: 3.6" rear travel / 100mm front travel
    H/T ANGLE: 70 deg
    S/T ANGLE: 73.5 deg
    C/S LENGTH: 16.9”
    S/T INSIDE DIAMETER: 27.2mm
    F/D CLAMP DIAMETER: 34.9mm
    B/BKT HEIGHT: 12.9”
    T/T LENGTH: 23”
    S/T CENTER TO TOP: 17” (i think. not listed)
    H/T LENGTH: 4”
    WHEELBASE: 42.9”
    STANDOVER HEIGHT: 31”
    FORK AXLE TO CROWN: 19.25”

    as you can see this is indeed pretty far off but remember that i havent run it in this configuration in over 5 years so i did a little more work and put it together as ive run it up to last winter. gettin closer:

    MODIFIED SPEC '96: 3.6” rear travel / 80mm front travel
    H/T ANGLE: 70.5 deg
    S/T ANGLE: 73 deg
    B/BKT HEIGHT: 12.5”
    WHEELBASE: 42.5”
    STANDOVER HEIGHT: 30”
    FORK AXLE TO CROWN: 18”

    more recently i added a 100mm fork but its on the flux now and i didnt wanna pull it apart to get those numbers. i think its fair to say this would have put it right in the ball park with the newer geo. this change would have put the head tube angle at just about 70 deg, spot on with the newer frame and set the seat tube angle back to aprox 72.5 deg, with a longer stem theoreticly equaling the top tube length. so besides a slightly shorter chainstay (.15") and a shorter top tube (.5") thats easy to replicate with a longer stem as i did by goin from a 120mm to a 130mm and a shorter wheelbase (.4") that would have grown to aprox 42.9 with the 100mm fork, id say its close enough to make a very fair comparison. to be honest, i didnt think it would be so close and my comparisons between the old burner and the new flux would be blown out of the water. well we were wrong.

    just for grins and giggles i also measured it in big travel mode. this was easy due to the fact that it sat this way up till tonight as id built it up for a d/h race it never ran a month ago:

    3.6” rear travel / 130mm front travel
    H/T ANGLE: 68.5 deg
    S/T ANGLE: 71 deg
    B/BKT HEIGHT: 14”
    WHEELBASE: 43.25”
    STANDOVER HEIGHT: 31.5”
    FORK AXLE TO CROWN: 19.75”

    all told its kinda nutty huh? anyway, thanx for listenin.
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  2. #2
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    Interesting stuff Cactus but I have one question...How do you have so much time on your hands? The older I get the more the saying 'There's not enough hours in the day.' becomes true.

    Even though I only have one Turner and it's an 04 Burner, it's nice to see the comparison. Since moving to AZ, I've thought about selling it to upgrade to a Spot and Z1. I don't think the wife will be too happy with that so I'll have to work on her a little more.
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  3. #3
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    its like this...

    im a total geek. bike geek that is. i dig all things bike and im kinda weird about havein a good answer to a good question. i felt like i needed to find out if i was way off base or not. as far as time. theres never enough at the shop but i make damn sure i have time for me once i get home and this was fun to put together. nutty huh? the wet trails have given me tons of posting time in the last 2 weeks so theres that.

    as far as the frame change, id have to say a spot or pack might make ya happy in az. im sure youve seen me say before that i was heavely pressured into the spot by a certain frame builder due to my az trips and eventual return home but opted for the flux knowin id get somethin bigger soon enough. and i did. see? it all worked out here. on the other hand, i played with my burner alot while livin there and didnt have many complaints. now given the option of the 2 im sure the spots tires would have worn out quite faster than the burners if i was still there full time. so if ya dont know any better youll be fine with 4". wife will be cool with that too im sure. see ya in a week or so.
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  4. #4
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    Well I'm cool with the 3.5" in back but the 100mm up front is what I'm having trouble with. I know the Burner can handle anything and I'm a Marz man at heart, but I need to change the oil and spring in the Marathon b/4 it's perfect. I may like it more but right now I'm probably gonna throw it on the Sugar (which is now a SS) and look for a new stiffer fork for the Burner. Any suggestions? I'd like to stay in the Marz family. I've heard that Manitou's are of French origin and if you notice my avatar saying, I don't like the French.

    So I'll probably keep the Burner and just go with a new fork. I haven't found anything yet that I can't ride on it so I'm not sure I really need a Spot, it would just be nice to have.

    Look forward to riding with ya in a week or so.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_FLMB
    I've heard that Manitou's are of French origin and if you notice my avatar saying, I don't like the French.
    Not sure if you're joking or not about the French thing, but I'll take the risk that you're serious.

    Did I miss the memo that Manitou Springs, CO is in France? Or is it Doug Bradbury? I can understand not liking Manitou stuff because they've fallen behind in performance and/or quality, but because of you think it's from France???

    BTW, hope you're not riding Time or Look pedals, Mavic rims, Velox rim tape...

  6. #6
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    i had great luck with my fox rlc talus. kinda solves the travel question dilema huh? i was able to launch it off of 8' drop ins and sharp edged log jumps at speed. ill tell ya more about how i like it in the tech when i see ya. ive seen em go pretty dern cheap on ebay lately too. $300 to $400 for a fork that retailed at $650. not bad dad.
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  7. #7
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    one word.... PROST!

    100% french, 100% bad ass driver. theres a reason i chose 12 as my race car number when i was driving.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    one word.... PROST!

    100% french, 100% bad ass driver. theres a reason i chose 12 as my race car number when i was driving.
    Awesome, what kind of car were you racing?
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  9. #9
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    BTW, as a French person I'll go on saying that I do not feel offended by other people being proud advocates of prejudice and bigotry.

    If people enjoy being the loudspeakers of stereotypes, well let them be.

    I'm ready to give a good laugh about France when it's funny. And God knows you can make fun of the French in many ways even if it's true for most countries.

    Enjoy you Freedom fries, CRASH_FLMB
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  10. #10
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    glory days

    Quote Originally Posted by accident prone
    Awesome, what kind of car were you racing?
    mostly i drove rotory cars. mazda rx3's. rx4's and my personal rx7 - "the rotary rooter". a true 5 liter killer if there ever was one. spent some time in f/f's and some sports racers once in awhile too. all fun stuff but i always dreamed of weekly seat time in a proper car like a 962 but woulda settled for a swift db2 anyday.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    mostly i drove rotory cars. mazda rx3's. rx4's and my personal rx7 - "the rotary rooter". a true 5 liter killer if there ever was one. spent some time in f/f's and some sports racers once in awhile too. all fun stuff but i always dreamed of weekly seat time in a proper car like a 962 but woulda settled for a swift db2 anyday.
    Nice, I've always wondered what was the proportion of MTBers with that common denominator.(car racing and MTBing.)
    Interresting combo.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by accident prone
    BTW, as a French person I'll go on saying that I do not feel offended by other people being proud advocates of prejudice and bigotry.

    If people enjoy being the loudspeakers of stereotypes, well let them be.

    I'm ready to give a good laugh about France when it's funny. And God knows you can make fun of the French in many ways even if it's true for most countries.

    Enjoy you Freedom fries, CRASH_FLMB

    I'm DAMN proud to be an American. I believe in America first, second, third...and so on. I do like other countries and people but when America saves the French from multiple invasions and then they spit on us, why should we support them anymore? I could go on and on but I won't bring politics into this. There are many, many, many examples of the French just being, well no other way to say it but bad.

    That being said, it's mostly the French government at fault. Yes there are the radical french people who still harbor animosity for America (which I don't understand) but as a whole I believe the french people are nice quality people. When I meet an individual, I base my judgement of said individual on themselves...not their nationality. So I don't want to come off as a bigot b/c I'm not. I'm just proud as punch to be American and if someone doesn't like us, well, I just return the same feelings.

    And I have no idea if Manitou is french or not...I recently heard it was. I really want to get rid of the fork b/c it's flexy and old. I mean it has an elastomer (sp?)! Yes, it's true that I used to use Times but I sold several pairs and bought CB Eggs. I wanted to support an American company. Is that so wrong? (Plus I like the Eggs better anyway.)

    I do love my Freedom fries!
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  13. #13
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    And why should the French support a war action by the US that was not aligned with their intelligence on the WMD issue, but also waged with criminal intent?

    Yes, our presence in Iraq is criminal. I said it. And this comes from a proud American.

  14. #14
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    errrr... pardon me but although this is mega interesting and all, not sure this is the place for it. can i suggest we turn this back to bikes? my tolerance for political ranting is somewhat low as of late. i posted this as a informative piece (of what is up to the reader) not so much as another us vs them blog. thanx guys.
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  15. #15
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    +1

    some posts are better left unanswered.
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  16. #16
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    Apologies. I try to be politically active, so words can strike a nerve with me.

    Back to bikes,

    How much compatibility have you seen between current XCE/Burners and your vintage model? It's amazing to see how little has changed over the years. What about frame weight? I have a 2000 catalog that says the tubing is Easton for the top and downtubes. I also noticed the main pivot location, as well as the HL placement are different.

  17. #17
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    compatibility pics

    its cool mr chicken, crash, prone. no worries guys. not that i dissagre with any of ya but....

    compatability wise, as ya say the main pivot changed as the h/l placement and hanger have many times over the years so there not much. matter of fact this isnt the original rear end or shock. i bent a hanger and turner sent me a new rear triangle due to a hanger design change but i still have the original. the original alps 4r shock was loaned out and unfortunately sold with that frame. a old pal at fox gave me a alps 5r so i didnt see the need to keep the old one at the time. woops.

    dt said once that the newer pivot point reduced some bob from the 1st few years of production and i think it may have increased its active nature. that may have been 98 if i recall. i think my tube set was alcoa butted stuff and that held true through 99 or so if im right. frame weight was 6 lbs for a 17.5" or medium now a days.

    heres the old triangle with a politcal message of my own from those times. funny, now im a trek dealer. also some comparitive shots of the pick up points and h/l's between the '96 burner and a '05 flux just for grins.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by cactuscorn; 10-23-2005 at 10:40 AM.
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  18. #18
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    '97 rear vs flux rear

    heres the '97 rear currently on the burner compared to the '05 flux. note the changes to the main pivot locations and shock placement. you can also see where the dropout/shockstay plate was redone between the 97 shown here and the 96 in the post above. if yer interested, the change in the hanger from 96 to 97 was the addition of a 3rd bolt:
    Attached Images Attached Images
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