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  1. #1
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    Options for Czar bottom bracket

    Ask a Mechanic: Bar Tape Tips & PF30/Shimano Bottom Bracket Adapter Options | Art?s Cyclery Blog

    Press Fit Bottom Brackets | Chris King Precision Components


    I am assembling parts for my build. I am going with XTR so looking at options for PressFit to 24mm spindle. Found the above article from Art's and Chris King's new offering. Since the cranks come with shimano BSA cups what do guys think of these options? I have no experience with adaptors but know they can be a PITA and creak. Appreciate hearing your thoughts.

  2. #2
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    BB30 Conversion Kit BB - 73mm

    This looks interesting too.

  3. #3
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    Word on the trail is that the Shimano crew uses the Praxis set up when riding bikes with PF30 shells. We have had good luck with the SRAM bearings with Wheels Mfg. reducers and still smooth after several months. Of course if you live in a wet area, King cannot be overlooked, their stuff is tough.

    I don't get that long of life out of GXP bearings and have had no better or worse life out of the test Czars with PF30 even though some pajama pundits have been saying PF or BB stuff don't hold up as well. Your results may vary


    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Word on the trail is that the Shimano crew uses the Praxis set up when riding bikes with PF30 shells. We have had good luck with the SRAM bearings with Wheels Mfg. reducers and still smooth after several months. Of course if you live in a wet area, King cannot be overlooked, their stuff is tough.

    I don't get that long of life out of GXP bearings and have had no better or worse life out of the test Czars with PF30 even though some pajama pundits have been saying PF or BB stuff don't hold up as well. Your results may vary


    DT
    Thanks DT. After some more reading, I ended up ordering the Praxis over the weekend. Sounds like I made a good choice. The design looks really solid.

  5. #5
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    Praxis looks like the cat's meow. Please report back on how it works out. There doesn't seem to be a lot of first-hand information, so any observations will be appreciated.

    I'm running the Wheels Mfg system, which has Enduro Engineering bearings. It fit perfectly, and has been running smoothly for a bit over 50 hours, so I'd say so far, so good.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  6. #6
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    Changing Bearings in Praxis BB

    I thought I would chime in on my experience with the Praxis PF30 - 87 BB on my Czar.

    I had a bearing failure due to water after about 2 months of riding. When I opened up the BB, it had 1/8 inch of water in there.

    Praxis covered the BB under warranty, sending me a new unit before even receiving my broken unit back. Excellent customer service.

    Well I decided to not take advantage of the warranty so that I could experiment on the old BB. I wanted to be able to change out the cartridge bearings on my own.

    I called Enduro Online store directly. They set me up with their bearing puller/press called the BRT-003 (It is not yet on their web site). The tool is well made. Small glitch in that it won't quite pull the bearing all the way off the Praxis drive side. Fairly easy to get around though.

    The bearing that Praxis uses are Enduro 2437 LLB. They are fairly standard steel bearings. Easy to find tons of upgrades to that bearing. I ordered some of Enduro's super high end bearings called the XD-15. They are angular, fully re-greasable, and have a FAR superior seal system to prevent water incursion. They supposedly last years without any grease (really!), so if you grease them supposedly last forever.

    The XD-15s do fit in the Praxis BB shell, but I have yet take a ride to decide whether I like them. There is a ton of drag from the seals. Maybe they will break in?

    Anyway, Pros and Cons of Praxis:

    With the proper tools, it is easy to change out the bearings on the Praxis BB (Voids Warranty!) There are a variety of bearings available in the 24 x 37 x 7 size (and lots of disagreement whether higher end bearings are worth it - you decide).

    Quality construction.

    Great customer service.

    When installing in the Czar, I had to wrench REALLY hard to seat the drive side. I hate wrenching that hard on a bike, and even though I used anti-seize, I fear I will never be able to remove it if necessary.

    The praxis seems to be pretty prone to water incursion.
    Last edited by edroid; 09-01-2013 at 10:18 AM.

  7. #7
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    My Czar frame has been purchased. Piecing together the parts to build and I want to use my Shimano cranks.

    Hopefully this is not resurrecting too old of a thread. Pricing the setup Kosmo uses is about $80 delivered from Artscyclery.com (have not scoured the internet for a better deal yet).

    The SRAM bearing with Wheels MFG Reducers that DT mentioned is about $70 to $75.

    And the Praxis is about $90.

    Having to do it all again which would you go for based on your Czar riding time and durability of the bearings and reducer combo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danK View Post
    My Czar frame has been purchased. Piecing together the parts to build and I want to use my Shimano cranks.

    Hopefully this is not resurrecting too old of a thread. Pricing the setup Kosmo uses is about $80 delivered from Artscyclery.com (have not scoured the internet for a better deal yet).

    The SRAM bearing with Wheels MFG Reducers that DT mentioned is about $70 to $75.

    And the Praxis is about $90.

    Having to do it all again which would you go for based on your Czar riding time and durability of the bearings and reducer combo.
    My Wheels Mfg/Enduro adapter got grouchy/draggy/bad feeling pretty quickly. Then the drag went away, then came back, went away, and came back again.

    Replaced with the Praxis unit. Very impressed, and so far, so good for several months and a lot of riding. Pretty impressive engineering has gone into this system, and it has not made a peep yet, and still spins as freely as a pinwheel in a hurricane.
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Alrighty then, scratch one option off the list!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    My Wheels Mfg/Enduro adapter got grouchy/draggy/bad feeling pretty quickly. Then the drag went away, then came back, went away, and came back again.

    Replaced with the Praxis unit. Very impressed, and so far, so good for several months and a lot of riding. Pretty impressive engineering has gone into this system, and it has not made a peep yet, and still spins as freely as a pinwheel in a hurricane.
    + 1 on the Praxis. 600 miles on mine with zero issues and creak free and spins freely. Great, solid design.

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    Looking into this same issue for my incoming Czar. I usually go with King because even though you pay a bit more up front, they last a long time and with the grease tool maintenance is a breeze. Does the Praxis offer anything substantially better than the King? I admit I'm not up to speed on press fit BBs. Looks like I will still have to use an adapter with the King - does the Praxis eliminate this need?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chunkylover53 View Post
    Looks like I will still have to use an adapter with the King - does the Praxis eliminate this need?
    No adapter with the Praxis. The Shimano crank installs in the normal fashion. I was skeptical. It installed perfectly.

    You gotta pull pretty darn hard on the BB tools to get it installed correctly. It really does have a "hard" stop. No torque specs necessary.
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Thinking of using a RaceFace Next SL 1x instead of XTR with Praxis Conversion.

    Related to a post I have in Drivetrain..... those with King PF bb, would you do it again or go for the Enduro XD-15?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Word on the trail is that the Shimano crew uses the Praxis set up when riding bikes with PF30 shells.
    The Praxis was the only PF30 conversion bottom bracket that I could run on my carbon fiber road bike that didn't end up creaking with my Shimano Dura Ace cranks. Granted it was a road bike application rather than a MTB but I put a sh!t load of miles on that bottom bracket without a single problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Thinking of using a RaceFace Next SL 1x instead of XTR with Praxis Conversion.
    I've got a set of Race Face Next SL direct-mount single ring cranks ordered that are intended for my Czar but I'm unsure of the available bottom bracket options that are compatible with their larger diameter spindle.

  15. #15
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    i am also going to run a next sl direct mount on my Czar. I was planning on the Praxis set up, after seeing them at interbike. I didn't even think of the larger spindle on the sl. Wonder if the bearings on the Praxis shell can be swapped out for ones that will work with the Next Sl.
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  16. #16
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    Any PF30 bb will work.
    I'm deciding between King and XD-15.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG View Post
    I've got a set of Race Face Next SL direct-mount single ring cranks ordered that are intended for my Czar but I'm unsure of the available bottom bracket options that are compatible with their larger diameter spindle.

  17. #17
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    I don't see anything at the Praxis site to make a Praxis Conversion go back to a PF30: Praxis Works | Standard BB

    I'm probably going to sell my new-in-box Praxis Conversion since the Next SL 1x and S Works crank have come into the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by kreater View Post
    i am also going to run a next sl direct mount on my Czar. I was planning on the Praxis set up, after seeing them at interbike. I didn't even think of the larger spindle on the sl. Wonder if the bearings on the Praxis shell can be swapped out for ones that will work with the Next Sl.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the information guys. Just ordered the Enduro XD-15 PF30 to use with the Race Face Next SL Direct Mount. This will be my first mtn. bike in 15+ years that doesn't have a stitch of Chris King on it.

  19. #19
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    in the same boat....so press fit xd-15 with the 30mm bearing kit?
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    Yeah.

  21. #21
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    Race Face makes an awesome PF30 BB that works with 30mm spindle cranks...

    DT

  22. #22
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    DT, what is the typical width of the BB shell on the Czar?

  23. #23
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    From Turner Bikes - Czar FAQs.... A: The Czar utilizes a PressFit 30 bb (PF30). The bottom bracket shell is 73mm wide.

  24. #24
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    Thanks.

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    i am a bit confused, please be patient. so the PF30 is what is required, some BB's seem to be what I would call zero stack, with no external bearing cups. The race face has external and is press fit. The enduro is external and seems to be pressed in like a conventional bb tool, with the centre of the sleeve being threaded. the praxis, if it had worked with my Next crank has a splined interface that expands while being threaded in. I am using a Next crank, don't want a creaky BB, best solution. Sorry for being a neby about this, but the PF thing is all new to me.
    Thanks.
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  26. #26
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    Kreater, check out Race Face-suite's reply (post #25) to this question in the Race Face Next SL 1x crank thread over in the Drivetrain forum.

  27. #27
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    it is confusing, thanks for the link. i will try the RF BB first with my Next set up.....
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kreater View Post
    i am a bit confused, please be patient. so the PF30 is what is required, some BB's seem to be what I would call zero stack, with no external bearing cups. The race face has external and is press fit. The enduro is external and seems to be pressed in like a conventional bb tool, with the centre of the sleeve being threaded. the praxis, if it had worked with my Next crank has a splined interface that expands while being threaded in. I am using a Next crank, don't want a creaky BB, best solution. Sorry for being a neby about this, but the PF thing is all new to me.
    Thanks.
    You have a PressFit 30 BB shell, meaning 46mm ID. Here are your options based on spindle size on crank:

    For 30mm spindle, there are no external cups. They are internal PressFit cups. See black cups on first pic.


    For 24mm spindle, the cups thread together in the center and appear to be external. See anodized aluminum cups on second pic.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Options for Czar bottom bracket-pfxd15r_600.jpg  

    Options for Czar bottom bracket-pf30_kc_ht2_700.jpg  


  29. #29
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    If anyone is looking for a Praxis 73mm Conversion bb, I have a new in box that I don't need anymore. $80 delivered priority mail in the US.

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    Hey guys - looks like at 2500 miles my Praxis BB is nearly shot. It's starting to feel gritty.

    Has anyone else with a praxis replaced theirs yet? Did you go with Praxis again or something else? How many miles did you get out of yours? I am in SoCal so pretty dry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhardeman View Post
    Hey guys - looks like at 2500 miles my Praxis BB is nearly shot. It's starting to feel gritty.

    Has anyone else with a praxis replaced theirs yet? Did you go with Praxis again or something else? How many miles did you get out of yours? I am in SoCal so pretty dry.
    My Praxis continues to spin nicely after two full seasons.

    I ride a lot.
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhardeman View Post
    Hey guys - looks like at 2500 miles my Praxis BB is nearly shot. It's starting to feel gritty.

    Has anyone else with a praxis replaced theirs yet? Did you go with Praxis again or something else? How many miles did you get out of yours? I am in SoCal so pretty dry.
    I just discovered mine is also shot. I have less than 150 hours on it and the non-drive-side bearing is very rough/sticky to the point of getting about 1/4 turn if you attempt to spin the un-chained crank. Drive side bearing seems fine.

    Never been ridden in sustained rain/mud, never through creeks, etc. Meticulously installed with torque wrench, call to Praxis to clarify an ambiguity in install directions, etc. I don't think its an install issue because I've been installing/using external BBs, mostly Shimano, for nearly ten years so I understand the sensitivity to preload on the NDS crank arm cap, etc.

    Haven't call Praxis yet, but am frustrated by the PF30 on the Czar. The original SRAM BB + 24mm adapters didn't even last 75 hours. I bought the Praxis as the "end-all" solution but it seems not much better. One of my Shimano threaded external BBs has over 1500 hours on it and its still in fine condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    I just discovered mine is also shot. I have less than 150 hours on it and the non-drive-side bearing is very rough/sticky to the point of getting about 1/4 turn if you attempt to spin the un-chained crank. Drive side bearing seems fine.

    Never been ridden in sustained rain/mud, never through creeks, etc. Meticulously installed with torque wrench, call to Praxis to clarify an ambiguity in install directions, etc. I don't think its an install issue because I've been installing/using external BBs, mostly Shimano, for nearly ten years so I understand the sensitivity to preload on the NDS crank arm cap, etc.

    Haven't call Praxis yet, but am frustrated by the PF30 on the Czar. The original SRAM BB + 24mm adapters didn't even last 75 hours. I bought the Praxis as the "end-all" solution but it seems not much better. One of my Shimano threaded external BBs has over 1500 hours on it and its still in fine condition.
    I ended up not going back to the Praxis. I went with this - Wheels Manufacturing Bottom Bracket Adapters + the adaptors for Shimano cranks.

    I figured it was half the cost for the BB of the Praxis, so I can replace it more often :-)

  34. #34
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    Well I just got off the phone with Praxis. Very frustrating. The Praxis guy told me:
    1) 125 hours is a good lifecycle for a bottom bracket (seriously?!)
    2) Bearings aren't warrantied
    3) Despite the multiple Praxis disclaimers/warnings online and in instructions saying NOT to attempt to press in a new bearing, he says that their BB *is* serviceable and can have a bearing removed/pressed-in.
    4) Praxis has the tool to press and remove bearings, but they will not offer this service to their customers, neither as a paid service nor as a warranty courtesy.
    5) Told me to find a shop with the proper arbor press to replace the bearing (but could not identify any shop in the nation who could do it) or to buy a new BB.

    Frankly I was shocked at the complete lack of support in resolving my issue. They won't even take $30 from me to mail in my BB for a new bearing. They won't give me a modest discount on a new BB. Won't do anything. And I bought from their largest dealer only one year ago, and have receipts.

    He also said the BB should be completely removed and cleaned/inspected/re-installed every 50 hours. That also seems ludicrous to me. At the torque required to install these conversion BBs, removal/install is non trivial. Expecting someone to do so once a month is a joke.

  35. #35
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    Fairwheel Bikes in AZ (where I bought the BB) wants $25 labor + $40 for bearings to press in new bearings. Add shipping both ways and its $75+. Or they will send me a new BB for $86 shipped.

    Is this it for Shimano crank users on Czars? Budgeting $100/year on BBs??

    My carbon hardtail with the Shimano BB92 press-in BB has 800 hours on it and is butter smooth. Ridden in generally similar conditions/locations to my Czar.

    Maybe the heavens will eventually bless us with a native Shimano BB for PF30 shells.

  36. #36
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    Has anyone been using the Wheels Manf PF30 to Shimano, or the KCNC/RWC PF30 to HT2 BB??

    They both have similar designs (thread together mid-sleeve) but not the collet that Praxis uses. KCNC/RWC one is generally cheaper. $62 with steel angular contact bearings.

    Seem to be some reasonably positive comments on other threads, with some mixed feedback.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Has anyone been using the Wheels Manf PF30 to Shimano, or the KCNC/RWC PF30 to HT2 BB??

    They both have similar designs (thread together mid-sleeve) but not the collet that Praxis uses. KCNC/RWC one is generally cheaper. $62 with steel angular contact bearings.

    Seem to be some reasonably positive comments on other threads, with some mixed feedback.
    We guarantee satisfaction with our angular contact bearing options: KCNC/RWC PF30 to HT2 BB Adapter with Enduro Bearings

    It helps to choose the correct bearing option (BOTTOM BRACKET BEARING GUIDE) and proper adjustment/load on the bearings is important.

    In any case, if there are issues, we help get them sorted, maybe switch to different bearings, etc..

    Also, SRAM GXP options are available: KCNC/RWC PF30 to GXP BB Adapter with Enduro Bearings

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    On the HT2 option with angular contact bearings, how much pre load is required and how does one control the torque when installing the left arm?

    Great looking parts! I love the idea of the left and right bearings being tightened together as 'one'.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    On the HT2 option with angular contact bearings, how much pre load is required and how does one control the torque when installing the left arm?

    Great looking parts! I love the idea of the left and right bearings being tightened together as 'one'.
    You can do it by feel, but, if you have the tools, the torque range is 12 to 26 Inch Pounds. You can use something like this: Enduro Hollowtech II Crank Fixing Bolt Tool

  40. #40
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    got both BB Praxis & RWC HT2, all with enduro ceramic bearing, all well made.

    But some say the ALU shell of HT2 will expand the BB ...So I put the Praxis on my Czar now, let the HT2 be spare part.

    Its pretty hard to install the Praxis nylon(maybe pon?) shell in, remove it can be disaster I think

  41. #41
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    I got over 2.5 seasons of long, hard riding on my Praxis, and the current owner continues to ride without problems. It is best installed with two people (!).

    The original "slip together" unit from Wheels Mfg lasted less than two months.

    The KCNC from Enduro looks pretty sweet, too. Angular contact stuff still has my heart, I guess!
    Whining is not a strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xuzuohang View Post
    Its pretty hard to install the Praxis nylon(maybe pon?) shell in, remove it can be disaster I think
    Removing it was a tedious pain but it was doable. I could press it a couple mm with my thumb, then was able to get a 12" piece of 1 1/4" PVC tube on the edge of the sleeve just below the edge of the frame BB shell, and tap it out, slowly/incrementally.

    I thought the sleeve removal was going to be the hard part of swapping to a Wheels Manufacturing PF30-OUT but I was wrong. I pressed in the drive side cup, with a WM drift, exactly as their instructions indicate, until the drive side cup was flush with the BB shell. At that point, it should be easy-peasy: just insert the NDS cup until the threads touch, carefully mate the threads and turn the NDS cup in. Probably works that way w/ a 68mm shell like in their videos. But on the 72.95mm (measured) shell on my Czar, the shoulder of the NDS cup encounters the edge of the BB shell when the male threads are still about 3 mm from touching their female counterparts. So you can't initiate the threads before the NDS cup needs pressing. Am I expected to simultaneously press in this NDS cup while "feeling" the threads and ensuring good thread mating?? It would require the Shimano outboard BB tool over the outside of the cup while simultaneously running a press tool through the inside of the bearings.

    So my original SRAM PF30 bearings with 24mm spindle adapters failed in less than 40 hours, my Praxis failed in about 125 hours and their customer service attitude was pathetic, and the Wheels Manuf can't even be installed without a ham fisted, cross-your-fingers hack. Looks like the RWC HT2 is next up. Man this is frustrating.

  43. #43
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    Get a King! Two seasons, not a single issue. Maintenance is a breeze. That said, I'd still prefer a threaded BB!

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    Question for other Czar owners: is the inner surface of your BB shell a constant inside diameter all the way across? I don't expect you to measure it. Rather, I'm asking if you can feel any edges or steps inside.

    On my shell, the outermost 12 or 15mm appears to be machined to an exact 46mm as PF30 expects. But about 15mm into the shell, on each side, there is a clearly defined "step" to a smaller ID. Its not much, maybe a step down to 45mm (so 0.5mm tall edge I can feel), but its there, readily apparent to eyes and fingers. It appears to be the edge of the machining. This wouldn't matter w/ most PF30 BBs, since the cups only contact the shell in the outer 10-12mm. But with the Praxis, the sleeve has to be forced through this section of smaller ID. That was a problem on my initial install, and also increased the difficulty on the removal. So I was wondering if this is common on all Czars or a relic of early runs, etc.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunkylover53 View Post
    Get a King! Two seasons, not a single issue. Maintenance is a breeze. That said, I'd still prefer a threaded BB!
    I'm pro-King but I'm very skeptical of using the 24mm step-down adapters after my first experience. That's essentially the King solution for HT2 in PF30, right?

  46. #46
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    Noooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    Removing it was a tedious pain but it was doable. I could press it a couple mm with my thumb, then was able to get a 12" piece of 1 1/4" PVC tube on the edge of the sleeve just below the edge of the frame BB shell, and tap it out, slowly/incrementally.

    I thought the sleeve removal was going to be the hard part of swapping to a Wheels Manufacturing PF30-OUT but I was wrong. I pressed in the drive side cup, with a WM drift, exactly as their instructions indicate, until the drive side cup was flush with the BB shell. At that point, it should be easy-peasy: just insert the NDS cup until the threads touch, carefully mate the threads and turn the NDS cup in. Probably works that way w/ a 68mm shell like in their videos. But on the 72.95mm (measured) shell on my Czar, the shoulder of the NDS cup encounters the edge of the BB shell when the male threads are still about 3 mm from touching their female counterparts. So you can't initiate the threads before the NDS cup needs pressing. Am I expected to simultaneously press in this NDS cup while "feeling" the threads and ensuring good thread mating?? It would require the Shimano outboard BB tool over the outside of the cup while simultaneously running a press tool through the inside of the bearings.

    So my original SRAM PF30 bearings with 24mm spindle adapters failed in less than 40 hours, my Praxis failed in about 125 hours and their customer service attitude was pathetic, and the Wheels Manuf can't even be installed without a ham fisted, cross-your-fingers hack. Looks like the RWC HT2 is next up. Man this is frustrating.
    aarhg...this WM PF30 to 24mm is what i have ordered for my 'arriving in the distant future' czar frame. Sounds like a definite no-go. The WM web-site indicates this should work for 68-73 mm shell?! Is this something peculiar to the Czar BB shell???

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    I'm pro-King but I'm very skeptical of using the 24mm step-down adapters after my first experience. That's essentially the King solution for HT2 in PF30, right?
    Yes, you have to use a conversion kit. I was pretty skeptical, thinking it was just more surfaces to creak, but no complaints so far. Been flawless.

  48. #48
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    Options for Czar bottom bracket

    I don't recall my czar having any steps inside the BB shell but I could be wrong.

    As for Wheels PF30 > out.
    I ran into same issue when installing.. Thought could just press in NDS with hand and get threads to engage but that was not the case. It needed a block of wood and few light taps w mallet to set it in further .. Just keep tapping with mallet until you get positive thread engagement then all easy peasy from there. It's in there solid and NO creaks or noises at all since install last season.

    I will likely never remove the cups as you can just hammer out and press in new bearings when time comes w/o disrupting the cups.

    No hesitancy with Wheels stuff

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevemtu View Post
    aarhg...this WM PF30 to 24mm is what i have ordered for my 'arriving in the distant future' czar frame. Sounds like a definite no-go. The WM web-site indicates this should work for 68-73 mm shell?! Is this something peculiar to the Czar BB shell???
    WM clearly says this is for 73mm. I measured my Czar at 72.95mm, and there is nothing visually apparent where the cup lip butts up against the shell edge that would cause concern that the cup isn't fitting up nicely. So as far as I can tell, there is nothing unique about the Czar BB shell that is contributing to my problem with the WM PF30 Out. I can take the BB in my hands, thread it one half turn, and measure with a caliper, and dimensionally speaking I can't see how the threads could possibly mate up on any 73mm shell *before* the NDS cup interferes with the shell. I guess if the shell had a heavily rounded lip on the inside diameter, which would fit to the chamfer on the cup shoulder, maybe its conceivable you could touch threads.

    I'm calling WM tomorrow to inquire, but unless they are making a longer version of one of the cups, I don't see any possible solution.

    Their install video is on a 68mm shell and the dude in the video can literally spin the first few thread turns on.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyjr View Post
    I don't recall my czar having any steps inside the BB shell but I could be wrong.

    As for Wheels PF30 > out.
    I ran into same issue when installing.. Thought could just press in NDS with hand and get threads to engage but that was not the case. It needed a block of wood and few light taps w mallet to set it in further .. Just keep tapping with mallet until you get positive thread engagement then all easy peasy from there. It's in there solid and NO creaks or noises at all since install last season.

    I will likely never remove the cups as you can just hammer out and press in new bearings when time comes w/o disrupting the cups.

    No hesitancy with Wheels stuff
    I'm not surprised you could nurse it together, but doing so is basically relying on luck to get a good start to the threads. It only takes one bad start to mildly damage the leading thread, and then subsequent tries are that much more difficult.

    Perhaps more critically, that is a direct contradiction to the claimed features/functionality of the product. I suspect that WM literally did not try to install one of these on a 73mm shell before releasing the product. Or if they did, they made a conscious decision to ignore this shortcoming. Neither option is attractive.

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    Get Hope. In his day, I mount the KCNC and soon changed it to Hope. since, silky smooth and quiet as a cat. > 500 hours.

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    My install is new and I only have 6 hours on it, but Im using a raceface pf30 adapter

    Race Face PF30 Bottom Bracket Adapter > Components > Drivetrain, Brakes and Pedals > Bottom Brackets | Jenson USA

    $50 which is pretty typical for a bottom bracket. Dont know how long it will last but seems just like a typical bottom bracket.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfonsote View Post
    Get Hope. In his day, I mount the KCNC and soon changed it to Hope. since, silky smooth and quiet as a cat. > 500 hours.
    I looked at the Hope, and it appears to be a robust design. But its complicated, expensive and proprietary. For others on the thread that haven't seen this option:
    - PF46-73 BB is $150 msrp and the required tool is $75 msrp
    - install requires press in of DS cup, then press in of NDS cup w/o bearing, then threading in the connecting tube (this is where proprietary tool cannot be avoided), then press in the NDS bearing
    - bearings are proprietary so replacement is Hope only

    Requiring an obscure, proprietary tool to remove my BB is a concern to me. If you're travelling and have a BB issue, finding a shop w/ this tool is risky. I called three Seattle area shops and none of them had it, if that's any indication.

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    FWIW, I talked to Wheels Manuf today and they begrudgingly acknowledged that the threads do not reach on 73mm installs. They suggested purchasing two 2437 drifts, and pressing in the NDS cup until you get resistance, and then removing the press tool, and then use a BB cup tool to turn the cup and "it will thread on." I asked why they didn't just make the threaded tube 3mm longer so a 73mm install would function just like the 68mm install that all their documentation describes, and they said "we are looking into that."
    I find it disappointing that a "precision machining" company can't be bothered to read their own CAD diagram and face the dimensional fact that they are 3mm shy of the threads meeting in a 73mm shell. This isn't rocket science, its simple stuff.

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    Yet another option is recently available: the Enduro TorqTite. Its pricey, $199 msrp with stainless angular contact bearings, but available at $150 or so. It threads together like the RWC/KCNC model. I'm not sure what advantage this would provide over the much more affordable RWC/KCNC option which is $79 with the same bearings.

    FWIW the TorqTite for PF30-to-24mm can be installed with two normal BB cup tools. Most other TorqTite models require a pair of proprietary low profile cup tools.

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    You going to try it?

    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    FWIW, I talked to Wheels Manuf today and they begrudgingly acknowledged that the threads do not reach on 73mm installs. They suggested purchasing two 2437 drifts, and pressing in the NDS cup until you get resistance, and then removing the press tool, and then use a BB cup tool to turn the cup and "it will thread on." I asked why they didn't just make the threaded tube 3mm longer so a 73mm install would function just like the 68mm install that all their documentation describes, and they said "we are looking into that."
    I find it disappointing that a "precision machining" company can't be bothered to read their own CAD diagram and face the dimensional fact that they are 3mm shy of the threads meeting in a 73mm shell. This isn't rocket science, its simple stuff.
    Interested in how this works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    I'm not surprised you could nurse it together, but doing so is basically relying on luck to get a good start to the threads. It only takes one bad start to mildly damage the leading thread, and then subsequent tries are that much more difficult.

    Perhaps more critically, that is a direct contradiction to the claimed features/functionality of the product. I suspect that WM literally did not try to install one of these on a 73mm shell before releasing the product. Or if they did, they made a conscious decision to ignore this shortcoming. Neither option is attractive.
    Inertia man I totally agree w you. I think I was just so anxious to get my Czar built up when I first got the frame that I was not letting anything get in the way. But ya I could of easily messed up the threads if I was not careful. Using a drift to press in the NDS cup as Wheels suggested will ensure it goes in square and engage nicely with other half. My wooden block/mallet is more risky for sure but sure glad it worked out otherwise would have probably been cursing too.

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    FWIW, I went back to my original Praxis, pulled the bad bearing, pressed in a new ABEC-5 steel radial bearing, and reinstalled in the Czar. Everything was smooth after the re-installation. We'll see how long the new bearing lasts.

    I found the bearing installation relatively easy to accomplish w/ two bearing drifts. At some point I'll probably swap out both radial bearings for angular contact bearings and see if they last longer. But for now I just replaced a single NDS bearing since the DS bearing still felt perfect.

    I noticed that the stock bearings on the Praxis are the cheapest possible (ABEC-3) bearing you can get in 2437 size. Considering the cost increase at wholesale for an ABEC-5 bearing is about $.50, I find it sad that Praxis won't spec a slightly better bearing for a $100 bottom bracket.

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    And if anyone wants my Wheels Manufacturing BB at a reasonable price, PM me. One cup was installed then removed, though there is no functional or cosmetic evidence of it. Otherwise new in box w/ seals, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    FWIW, I went back to my original Praxis, pulled the bad bearing, pressed in a new ABEC-5 steel radial bearing, and reinstalled in the Czar. Everything was smooth after the re-installation. We'll see how long the new bearing lasts.

    I found the bearing installation relatively easy to accomplish w/ two bearing drifts. At some point I'll probably swap out both radial bearings for angular contact bearings and see if they last longer. But for now I just replaced a single NDS bearing since the DS bearing still felt perfect.
    .
    What size drifts did the job call for? Order info on the bearings would also be helpful. Do you think it would be possible to do the bearing swap without removing the praxis from the Czar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoPumpChump View Post
    What size drifts did the job call for? Order info on the bearings would also be helpful. Do you think it would be possible to do the bearing swap without removing the praxis from the Czar?
    QBP #'s are TL4121 for drift(s) and BB2437 for bearings (in pairs only).

    Hard to say how difficult it might be to do while in the Czar shell. Bearing removal is easier with the BB in two pieces, since you then have access to the back side of the bearing. Bearing install should be similar in or out of the shell.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    QBP #'s are TL4121 for drift(s) and BB2437 for bearings (in pairs only).
    Thanks InertiaMan. Your a gentleman and a scholar.

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    InertiaMan, I got the drifts and new bearings to put into my Praxis. One question tho... How do you get the old bearing out?

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    First I removed the BB from the frame so I could work on the NDS half of the BB.

    I cut a hole in two blocks of 3/4" hard maple sized to fit nicely around the outer portion the assembly (where a cup tool would normally go), placed an appropriately sized socket inside the sleeve (outer diameter of socket was less than the smallest portion of bearing retaining edge in the BB sleeve, so it sits directly on the bearing). Then I put the whole mess in a vise and slowly pressed it together, which pushes the bearing out of the BB and into the "void" in the maple block.

    Without the maple blocks or equivalent, I think you could still get the bearing out pretty easily with a socket sized like I described above. Just place the BB on a flat surface (workbench) with the cup side flush to the workbench, and the other side of the sleeve (the portion normally inside the frame) sticking straight up. Position the socket inside the sleeve against the inner face of the bearing (but NOT touching any portion of the BB/sleeve). Then tap the socket w/ a hammer gently/repeatedly. The bearing should slide nearly all the way out before it's outer face touches the workbench. At that point, to get the bearing the last 1mm or 2mm out of the cup, just hold the sleeve in your hand and give the socket another tap and the bearing should easily drop out.

    This method can/will damage the bearing, since your pressing the inner race only during extraction, but since the bearing being removed is presumably bad, you don't care.

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    Thanks again! Great description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan View Post
    ...
    I noticed that the stock bearings on the Praxis are the cheapest possible (ABEC-3) bearing you can get in 2437 size. Considering the cost increase at wholesale for an ABEC-5 bearing is about $.50, I find it sad that Praxis won't spec a slightly better bearing for a $100 bottom bracket.
    Hi InertiaMan,

    Thanks for the inputs with on the different bottom brackets. I use SRAM standard bb30 and they do not last very long so I am looking for one where you can easily change the bearing only that fits with a x01 narrow crankset. The only one I could find was the one from hope.
    With retards to the ABEC scale then it might make sense to use ABEC 3 instead of ABEC 5 or greater. As far as I understand ABEC is a tolerance scale and not a quality scale. Low abec numbers have more play than high abec numbers which means that they can better tolerate that the bearings are not perfectly aligned compared to bearings with high ABEC values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianBak View Post
    Low abec numbers have more play than high abec numbers which means that they can better tolerate that the bearings are not perfectly aligned compared to bearings with high ABEC values.
    Interesting perspective, thanks.

    The ABEC standards do define tolerances as opposed to a quality level, but in practice the Enduro products, though they use ABEC numbers as a naming convention to distinguish among models, also vary in features/quality as they step from ABEC 3 to 5. For example, the ABEC 5 versions use a nylon/graphite retainer, which is one less thing to rust.

    But even with regard to the tolerances themselves, I don't see how lower ABEC tolerance would somehow have improved wear under poor-alignment applications. The tolerances define the ball perfectness, race roundness, etc. Why would a less round ball wear better than a more round ball, regardless of the alignment?? Or why would a more elliptical race wear better??

    Your concept, if it is valid (and I'm not a mech engineer so I don't know if it is or not) is more related to the radial clearance spec, which isn't part of ABEC. At any rate, Enduro shows their ABEC 3 and 5 bearings are both C3 radial clearance, so it doesn't seem applicable here.

  68. #68
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    IntertiaMan is right. ABEC ratings are in part based on noise and vibration. I would say up to ABEC 5, the rating DOES affect performance on a bike. As pointed out by InertiaMan, the Enduro bearings happen to also upgrade certain components along with the ABEC rating increase (such as ball grade and retainers).

    Also keep in mind the sense that it makes to run angular contact bearings in a bottom bracket application. Since it's very difficult to NOT side load a radial bearing when adjusting play out of a bottom bracket spindle, using a bearing that requires side loading is a great solution. Additionally, a properly adjusted angular contacting bearing has all of the balls under equal load, so it is stronger.

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