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  1. #1
    steep fast and loose :)
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    Opinion : Air shock fitment to 6" travel plus frameset.

    X-Post with the Nicolai forum :

    Tim Flooks told me today that air shocks simply cannot work on a 6" plus frameset
    All to do with the spring rate curve being exceeded onto the ramp up point after 70% of stroke.
    Apparently, higher volume air cans will suffer even greater mid stroke blow through than normal volume cans, as they have less capacity for mid stroke damping than smaller reservoir canisters.
    Of course, he suggests a PUSH Ind. kit will assist in the stroke control [RP23, no Monarch kit just yet] as it replaces the flexible stroke washer internally with a more robust 'shim'...
    To be fair, he made a valid point about the mid stroke blow through being in conjunction with air shocks' inability to provide sufficient high speed rebound control. The lack of rebound ability means that most air shocks fitted to 6" travel plus bikes, irrespective of leverage ratio, simply causes pack down and the subsequent effects of such.
    Thoughts ?

  2. #2
    Captain Underpants
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    Well, I'm not smart enough to understand most of what you typed, but I did replace the HV RP23 on my RFX for a CCDB and could not be happier. No more mid stroke wallow.

  3. #3
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    how old is your RFX? Horst or TNT?

  4. #4
    steep fast and loose :)
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    i fitted a CCDB to my HL 6 Pack - Phenomenal improvement once dialled in.
    I'm experimenting with air shocks on my Nicolai Helius AM but have wallow mid stroke and pedal strike issues

  5. #5
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    what the hell are you doin up at this time?!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks
    X-Post with the Nicolai forum :

    Tim Flooks told me today that air shocks simply cannot work on a 6" plus frameset
    All to do with the spring rate curve being exceeded onto the ramp up point after 70% of stroke.
    Apparently, higher volume air cans will suffer even greater mid stroke blow through than normal volume cans, as they have less capacity for mid stroke damping than smaller reservoir canisters.
    Of course, he suggests a PUSH Ind. kit will assist in the stroke control [RP23, no Monarch kit just yet] as it replaces the flexible stroke washer internally with a more robust 'shim'...
    To be fair, he made a valid point about the mid stroke blow through being in conjunction with air shocks' inability to provide sufficient high speed rebound control. The lack of rebound ability means that most air shocks fitted to 6" travel plus bikes, irrespective of leverage ratio, simply causes pack down and the subsequent effects of such.
    Thoughts ?
    It would be much easier to respond to your post if it made more sense.

    But let me say this.

    The spring and the damper are two, totally separate things.

    You state that air sprung shocks have limitations, then all you talk about is limitations in damping.

    Which is it?
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Specialized sucks dong

  7. #7
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    Gonna be fun to see where this one ends as well.

  8. #8
    trail fairy
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    Not too be rude but we all discovered this some 3 years ago when the DHXa air came out, on the Packs RFX and Spots, its been the same with Nomads and other bikes not all but enough for serious riders to upgrade to coils for the most part, who want real performance and not worried about a few grams! Course many went Ti springs as well..

    My poo air is there to hold the frame up while I injured nothing else
    I have other plans but no point right now, gathering dust!

    Such a beast as ya Nicolai I can;t understand why ya running such a can myself be like F1 running a Koni shock on there carbon stays! I like Sram but Monarch for that puppy really I do wish Sram would make the darn Vivid in smaller Is2is darn it that peaves me off a bit! Have you thought of a BOS stoy with Ti spring yet
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  9. #9
    eBiker
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    I'll bite.

    Any suspension that is designed for the characteristics of an air spring will work well with an air shock (spring).

    I can't think of any current designs of 7" frames that are designed around air springs, they are all designed for coils - huckin' & bombin'

    Newer 6" frames are starting to pop up that are more designed around air shocks. It will be interesting to see how they play out. New Nomad, New Enduro, and Remedy come to mind, but I have already seen posts of conversions to coil in all these models with claimed improved results.

    The future is bright with sub 30 pound huckers...


  10. #10
    FM
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    After running an avalanche chubie coil over the summer, I recently picked up a PUSH'd LV rp23 for my RFX.
    All I'm gonna say is I'm very impressed.
    The avy does feel noticably better, but it's also 1.5lbs heavier, even with a ti spring. So, all things considered, I'd call it even- it's great to have both options! Horses for courses.

    I'm pretty stunned by the progress air shocks have made in the last 3 years.

    I don't know much about Tim Flooks, but he seems to be full of hot air, hence:
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  11. #11
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    On an 08 RFX my pushed low volume Rp23 blows away the Rp23 with high volume can. For anyone approaching or over 200 LBS don't bother with a high volume can or go on a diet -the LV rp23 it is almost as nice as my Roco coil.

  12. #12
    Committed
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    I have had little love for the Fox DHX air on long travel bikes, but the Marzocchi Roco Air WC is a whole different beast.
    Feels great on both my DHR and my Highline.
    No mid stroke wallow and very plush off the top. On the DHR I can't quite get full travel due to the progressive nature of the DHR's suspension. This is not an issue on the Highline due to it's more linear suspension rate.
    Not every air shock is the same, just like every coil is not the same.
    I love the feel of a coil sprung bike, but I have been experimenting with air sprung gravity bikes for a few years now. In the right environment air can be very effective.
    I ran air front and rear at Sea Otter this past year, and found it suited the course perfectly. There is also some local riding that this set up works well on. I wouldn't run air all the time on a gravity bike, but it has it's place.
    Here is a photo of the DHR set up for the Otter with Roco WC Air rear shock and Totem Solo Air in the front.
    Sub 36# race bike.
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  13. #13
    Yes, that's fonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    After running an avalanche chubie coil over the summer, I recently picked up a PUSH'd LV rp23 for my RFX.
    All I'm gonna say is I'm very impressed.
    The avy does feel noticably better, but it's also 1.5lbs heavier, even with a ti spring. So, all things considered, I'd call it even- it's great to have both options! Horses for courses.

    I'm pretty stunned by the progress air shocks have made in the last 3 years.

    I don't know much about Tim Flooks, but he seems to be full of hot air, hence:
    I'm with FM, sounds like Tim doesn't know what the Flooks he's talking about...

  14. #14
    steep fast and loose :)
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    thanks guys - food for thought.
    fwiw, nicolai have designed the action of the Helius AM around the monarch 4.2 , 200mm i2i 57mm stroke !
    i'll be slapping on a CCDB to determine differences and settings next week sometime.

  15. #15
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks
    i fitted a CCDB to my HL 6 Pack - Phenomenal improvement once dialled in.
    I'm experimenting with air shocks on my Nicolai Helius AM but have wallow mid stroke and pedal strike issues
    I replaced the CCDB on my RFX with a PUSHed RP2. I just couldn't get the air shock to feel good. I got the Agrresive/Trail tune on it. It felt really wooden and it felt like it was packing down on fast, bumpy descents. When I sped up the rebound, it would try to launch me off on landing. It lasted a handful of rides, but I just couldn't endure the downgrade in the name of saving weight.

    _MK
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  16. #16
    FM
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    This being the Turner board, we really should be more specific


    I was never quite stoked on the performance of air shocks on my old '02 RFX (tried both a DHX air and RP3). Aside from the higher leverage ratio, the suspension felt a lot more linear, I always had a hard time balancing small bump compliance and bottom-out.

    DT made a lot of changes starting with the '07 to make the bike more air-shock friendly. Lower leverage ratio, etc. Most people running the low-volume RP23's on the newer RFX's seem to be stoked with that particular combination. Hard to say how much is the frame design and how much is the shock, but again I'm very impressed with the PUSH'd low-volume rp23 on the '08 RFX. With %30 sag it doesn't bottom out, mid-range support is excellent with the low volume sleeve, and the pro-pedal feels unobtrusive.

  17. #17
    Bite Me.
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    Air shocks are getting better and better I think and can get you quite close to a coil feel w/o the weight..

    A bit off topic, but how would a low compression tune, low volume air sleeve RP23 compare to a high compression tune high volume air sleeve RP23 on an '08 RFX? 190lb rider - I'm on the cusp of getting the LV sleeve weight wise and currently run the HC/HV combo - wondering if PUSH and a LV sleeve would make much difference.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  18. #18
    Moosehead
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    190lb rider - I'm on the cusp of getting the LV sleeve weight wise and currently run the HC/HV combo - wondering if PUSH and a LV sleeve would make much difference.
    +1, would think it may even be more beneficial on your RFX. Works well on the Spot with Clyde at 225lbs.

  19. #19
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    FM
    I agree that there's too many factors involved and we need to be more specific. However the OP was regarding an unspecific statement(not a quoted statement mind you) from arguably the UK's most respected suspension tuner.

    As you said, there's large variables year to year within one brand(06>07 RFX for example) that make sweeping statements regarding shock suitabilty irrelevant.

  20. #20
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    A bit off topic, but how would a low compression tune, low volume air sleeve RP23 compare to a high compression tune high volume air sleeve RP23 on an '08 RFX? 190lb rider - I'm on the cusp of getting the LV sleeve weight wise and currently run the HC/HV combo - wondering if PUSH and a LV sleeve would make much difference.
    I'm not sure rider weight is even that much of a deciding factor! I'm 180 and the LV definitely feels better than I remember the HV can feeling- of course it's been 6 months since I rode that stock hv-rp23.

    I think the LV can offers more mid-stroke support and more progressiveness. It doesn't blow through travel like other fox air shocks I've owned. I also don't feel the pro-pedal, this shock feels active, not all choked up like propedal sometimes feels. Stays active, doesn't blow through travel, feels real good.

    The avy coil still smokes it at high speed chop (not much surprise there). Not sure about bigger hits yet.

  21. #21
    Bite Me.
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    That's pretty much what I expected to hear - the LV can helped the Sultan's RP23 a bunch. I was really just curious whether the high compression tune might filter out some of the mid-stroke wallow the HV cans are known for. So far this shock feels much better than the DHX it replaced, but due to incessant snow fall here I haven't really been able to put it or the bike through its paces. Coils sure do feel nice.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  22. #22
    Captain Underpants
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Gonna be fun to see where this one ends as well.
    In the Hasselhof forum, for sure.

  23. #23
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    The statements in the OP are not completely off. It's important to realize that coil springs have a constant spring rate (at least the ones used on bicycles), and air springs, despite a number of tricks the manufacturers employ, have a progressive spring rate. And while compression dampening is fairly tricked out on some shocks (propedal, boost and such), rebound dampening is constant. If the rebound dampening is firm enough to deal with the high air spring rate at the end of the stroke, it's too firm for the beginning and the shock "packs down". If the rebound is ok at the beginning of the stroke, the shock will rebound way too fast when coming back from fully compressed.
    The high leverage ratios of long travel bikes require fairly high pressures to begin with which amplifies the problem.

    HTH,
    C>

  24. #24
    Ride and Smile
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    I just replaced my rfx with an 8" bike that is spec'ed with an air shock. And I've been reading about some other gravity racers besides Soulrider who are using air. I've been a big fan of coil, but have heard so many good things about the rocco air that I'm gonna have to give it a try. The nice thing is I get an 8" travel rear with a Totem for the weight (maybe less) of my RFX. I have high expectations...

  25. #25
    Rides like wrecking ball
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    Air shocks are getting better and better...
    So are coils though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesh to Steel
    With people liking mongoose and trek bikes now, what's next in this crazy world? People disliking the bottlerocket?!

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