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  1. #1
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    New Pack owner - a few questions please ;)

    I'm finally a proud Turner owner . My 6 Pack turned up yesterday and after an all nighter it's rolling. What a sweet frame, they look so much better in the flesh!! but I'll post a pic of one of the first two Packs in Aus, shortly.

    I took my time to build it up, so I'd get it right, and I have a few questions for other Pack owners.

    1) What side of the BB are people running the 2.5mm spacer with XT Hollowtech cranks?
    initially I had it on the Non-Drive side (looked like a better chain line) but when I was test riding it, changing down from big ring to middle ring, several times the chain got sucked up into the very small gap between the big ring and chain stay. This cased a jam up and as you can imagine, a nasty score on the polished chainstay as it went thru . Hence my change of side with the spacer to increase that gap.

    2) Has anyone else experienced this?

    3) Is the gap between the big ring and chainstay, meant to be wide enough to stop the chain from jamming? (I can't really work out what the hell the chain is doing up there anyway- the only thing I can think of, is that it's a new chain and maybe the sticky lube is causing it to hang onto the ring a smidge too long?) Even with the spacer on the Drive side, the chain is still to wide at the joint to fit thru easily.

    4) With the front derailieur height, I set it high enough to clear the chain stay on a full bottom-out. It now sits higher than the 1-3mm above the big ring, specified in the instructions, seems to work ok, but is there any problems with running them slightly higher?
    (I'm running 30% sag, so the chain clears the bottom of the guide no probs.)

    cheers
    leight

  2. #2
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    im not a pack owner (yet) but i think i can help. if yer talkin about the new hollowtech 2 cranks, you have 3 spacers. shimano says to run one on each side but my experience shows to only run one on the drive side otherwise the splines dont engage properly. the chain line should be pretty sweet with this setup.

    as far as the f der, theres more to it than just the height. check the angle in relation to the big ring. it should be perfectly in line. then theres the low and high limit screws.

    low limit adjustment first: too low and you have chain suck and interference. starting from the big cog/small ring combo, set the low limit so the inside der plate is about 2 or 3 mm from the inside chain plate, take up the cable slack by hand only. let out the limit screw till the sweet spot of no cable slack is found. a little back n forth on the screw will help. shift it from mid ring to low and back. if its still off try turnin it in (clockwise) 1/2 turn at a time till it rubs or more than likely, wont shift down to the small ring from the big cog. then 1/4 turn out till it does. re do the cable tension. test ride it and make 1/4 turn adjustments if ness. recheck it from the small cog. if it cross shifts yer golden. do the same 1/2 turn - 1/4 turn adj for the high limit from the small cog. i figure one or both of these may be yer issue. keep us posted.
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  3. #3
    FM
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    2 thoughts:

    Sounds like your chainrings are worn out. I had the same problem when I first got my RFX. Tcheezy steered me towards new chainrings but i was sure that wasn't the problem since they were less then a year old. I replaced them anyways and problem was solved. Since then I've been replacing my middle ring every 6-8 months of riding and I almost never get chainsuck anymore.

    get some pan-head screws to fit in your ISCG mounts. I used 6mm panhead SS phillips screws, but have since gone to a chainguide. You may want to experiment here to find the right stack height which won't interfere with your granny ring bolts, but come close enough to skip the chain off when it comes near. Good time to mention that apparently the 'packs ISCG mounts sit 3mm closer to the chainrings compred to the RFX's... not sure why....

    And a tip: if your chain doers get stuck between chainrings and swing arm, don't just reef down on the chain! Lean hard on your seat with all you body weight. This compresses the suspension and opens up the distance between the rings and chainstay yoke. Often the chain will free itself if you do this.

    Lets see some pics!

  4. #4
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    good call fm. guess i took it for granted it was new parts on a new frame. i like the pan head trick too. may have to try that on the rfx/pack/spot/whatever when it shows up. cool idea on the chain freeing trick too. i used to just pull the crank but its been years since i had it suck. a good tune goes a long way it seems.
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  5. #5
    No, that's not phonetic
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    New rings can suck bad too since any burrs from maching will grab the chain during shifts. It sometimes takes a few weeks of careful shifting to get the issue sorted (through wear, ironically).

    Spacing of the crank should not "solve" the issue since the chain should NOT hang up on the rings NO MATTER WHAT. Chainsuck is not a frame or chainline spacing issue, it is a chain-not-releasing-from-the-chainring problem, which is purely between the chain and the rings. If you are mixing new and old drivetrain components which show even mild differences in levels of wear, you are asking for trouble. If you have all-new bits, those can suck too because of manufacturing tolerances, but this tends to go away as the bits wear into each other. Just use really light pedal loads for a while during shifts.

    On the f der height issue thing, you are running a 44t big ring, right? I cannot think of why the swing-arm would contact the f der at bottomout if the f der is set to clear a 44t chainring by about 1mm. Please tell us the big ring size, and what f der you are using. Something does not add up.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  6. #6
    dhd
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    Ha Ha............Beat you to it Leight!
    Already had mine out for a fang and I like it a lot! Sorry for the crappy pic.
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  7. #7
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    hiya cheese,

    with all due respect, and there is plenty, i have to point a few things out. take it from a guy who makes his living fixing bikes of all types and parts levels then training others to do the same. chainsuck can indeed be a chainline issue or even a frame design issue. case in point, a overly long b/bkt spindle or a early sugar frame. however i dont expect either to be the case here.

    new rings can hang up or suck just like you say if not properly tuned. trust me, there are ways to aliviate the new ring/cog/chain blues and most, not all, is in the tune. and yes, some time only improves it just like you say. yer also right about mixin new and worn parts if those old parts are what id refer to as out of spec. rolloff makes a fine cog wear tool and a simple ruler can measure chain wear just fine. i reccomend replacement at 1/16" stretch, not 1/8 as most mechanics. may take initail parts/labor money from the shop but pays big dividends in trust and return custys down the road. speakin of chains, be sure to strip all the shipping sludge off them, let em properly dry and relube with a decent substance for yer climate. personal reccomendations are tri flow for endurance, krytech for dry and rock n roll blue for wet.

    chainsuck, as a rule, has more to do with derailluer adjutment or choice than rings and chains, mostly with a poor low limit setting and/or cable tension. ive seen other things like bad chain length, bent derailluers, rings and chans have a hand in it too. now there are parts that work far better than others but in most situations, a carefull hand can make most of them work to a point. theres a ton of ways to tune a part and only a few that actually work well. i tried to roughly explain how to do this but it takes practice and proper training and thats hard to do in a message format.

    in the end its a combination of several fine adjustments, 5 alone on a front derailluer, and parts that arent out of spec or non compatable. just too much goin on with limited info to post a perfect fix and some of it is trial and error as im sure you know. so i tend to start with basics and go from there. alot of time ill miss it in the begining on here due to my first things first approach but i find thats the safer way to go about it. hell, sometimes i can even help someone out.

    so ive got all these fish and ive lost count again.... just kiddin ya cheese. yer opinions, riding talent and technical knowladge are not lost on me.
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  8. #8
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    awesome Bill, the packs have just about ended up twins!! will get some pickies up in a mo.

    Guys, thanks for the detailed replies.
    I'm using pretty mutch all new gear on the drive-line (cranks/chainrings have seen about a dozen rides on my old i-drive where I had no issues with shifting)

    FDr is new XT, ChRings are 22/32/44 , cassette is '06 Sram PG 990, chain is '06 Sram PC 991.
    I think that spacing the crank has made an improvement with shifting, however as cheezy says, won't solve the prob.

    I'll go and take a few more measurements, but the FD was low enough to hit the chainstay when it was giving 1mm clearance on big ring. I am measuring the theoretical bottom out position by removing the shock and moving the rear end till I measure 5.5" eye-eye (2" stroke right?)

  9. #9
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    iscg spacing made slightly less murky

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Good time to mention that apparently the 'packs ISCG mounts sit 3mm closer to the chainrings compred to the RFX's... not sure why....
    i was talkin to dt about this last week and he tells me there have been 3 diff iscg mount offsets for 3 diff generations of design. this explains why but im at a loss for the phylosophy behind it. seems its the chain guide manufacturers that dictate this, not the frame builders. maybe somethin to do with improving performance or compatability would be my guess.
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  10. #10
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leight
    I'll go and take a few more measurements, but the FD was low enough to hit the chainstay when it was giving 1mm clearance on big ring. I am measuring the theoretical bottom out position by removing the shock and moving the rear end till I measure 5.5" eye-eye (2" stroke right?)
    id say not so much man. ill suggest you remove the spring eliment, be it a metal coil or air, then check the clearence 1mm is pretty low in most cases and id go for 2mm personally. i just like the upshift performance from there more.

    and yes, im having fun with all this if anyone was wonderin, which they may not be. good luck with it all and i hope we end up helping you out.
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  11. #11
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    Pickies

    Here she is!!
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  12. #12
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    looks great! congrats! jeeze im envious but it wont be long for me.all i gotta do is approve some color samples, wait for the finish to be done, pay the man and wait for ups. i can only hope mine looks as nice. btw, cool his n hers bikes, guys! you boys close or somethin? hehe
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    btw, cool his n hers bikes, guys! you boys close or somethin? hehe
    LoL... funny how its all turned out actually. DhD is actually the Turner dealer/importer here in Australia, and he probably does feel like I'm a bit "close" after the last 12 weeks....

    I originally ordered a five spot in late july, but after week 8 or 9, we were told there were some supply delays and would have to wait another 2 or 3 weeks. This was my perfect opportunity to "Super Size" my order, for the pack (which was in stock) after realising that the pack probably would suit our riding here a bit better than the spot.
    Long story short, I'm now a satisfied Pack owner, and Bill won't be getting annoying calls every week asking if there's any news on my bike!!

    BTW, the build weight in the pics is 34.4lbs. I also have an RP3 which will suit as well as a second wheel set of DT 4.1's, so that will drop the weight back to 31'ish lbs for XC.

  14. #14
    Bodhisattva
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    I don't want to open a hornet's nest and shyed away from the Flux discussion, but FD clearance is a legitimate issue.

    With my FD properly installed on a 2 ring setup, the Pack swingarm does indeed hit my XTR FD on full compression. Same thing on my friend's Pack. It's very minimal and after 6 months of use has caused no ill effects to my FD and only a few minor gauges to the swingarm so I don't worry about it. I raised the FD but then was having serious chain rub on the bottom cage of the FD when I was in gear 5 or lower. Since I use a wide range of gears with the two ring setup, this was unacceptable.

    So to summarize: chainstay interference with the bottom of the FD cage is real but in real world application is no-big-deal. I'm sure some simple dremeling with a rotory head on the swingarm would solve the problem for those concerned.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

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  15. #15
    Bodhisattva
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    Nice looking bike. I like the Pike in silver. Is it the Team model?

    Post back on how you like the Pike on the Pack.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  16. #16
    Lookin for that extra can
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    Nice pack! Will be interested to hear how you like the Pike.

    As for your chain suck, you mentioned the SRAM factory goo on the chain. I was experiencing chain suck on my Pack (SRAM Front Der, SRAM 970 chain, SRAM 970 cassette, SRAM XO rear der, and SRAM XO shifters). I decided to clean all that sticky crap off the chain (and the chain rings since I rode it for a week or so) and re-lube. That was all it took. I haven't had a suck since. Hope it is that easy for you too...

    --rip

  17. #17
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I have one of those new "universal" XT front ders, positioned at the 1mm big-ring clearance height, and have bottomed my Pack hard and repeatedly (in Squeaky's presence, I might add), and there is nary a mark on the stay from contact.

    I would be curious to know what people propose as mechanisms for chainsuck if it is not the chain failing to release from the rings? On the Sugar and similar bikes the chainstay yoke hangs down so far that it presents itself as an amazingly sensitive "canary in a coalmine" to chainsuck. It does not cause chainsuck, it just brings your attention to the fact that the chain is failing to release properly from the ring sooner than a higher yoke would. Any thoughts?
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  18. #18
    jrm
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    Otay..

    I run the 2.5mm spacer on the driveside only.

    Your clearance and chain suck probs maybe that your running an outer ring. I got rid of the outer ring, bought a bashguard and medium cage RD and havent had any problems since.

  19. #19
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy

    I would be curious to know what people propose as mechanisms for chainsuck if it is not the chain failing to release from the rings? Any thoughts?
    You gotta look at why the chain is getting stuck in there as much as why the chain is getting there in the first place, like the swingarm clearance with the granny. Otherwise, I agree its a matter of whats causing the chain to get sucked up there, worn chainring, bent tooth, mucky conditions, shifting to the granny under load. My Truth was by far the worst chainsuck bike I've owned mainly due to the fact of the clearance between the granny/swingarm. My FXR has probably been the best again due to the clearance, there is enough room that the chain just does not get jammed up.

  20. #20
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    With my FD properly installed on a 2 ring setup, the Pack swingarm does indeed hit my XTR FD on full compression. I raised the FD but then was having serious chain rub on the bottom cage of the FD when I was in gear 5 or lower. Since I use a wide range of gears with the two ring setup, this was unacceptable.
    I've had the same issue and I raised my FD about 3mm and it no longer hits. Sure the chain rubs on the bottom cage when you get to the smaller cogs but only when the suspension is fully extended. It does not do that with proper sag, i.e., when you are on the bike. BTW, I am also using a two ring set-up with bash guard and and AJ's frameguard.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  21. #21
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    I've had the same issue and I raised my FD about 3mm and it no longer hits. Sure the chain rubs on the bottom cage when you get to the smaller cogs but only when the suspension is fully extended. It does not do that with proper sag, i.e., when you are on the bike. BTW, I am also using a two ring set-up with bash guard and and AJ's frameguard.
    Sure, I could raise my FD too but the chain rub on the FD when in the smaller gears gets pretty severe. That's not acceptable. It's a small design oversight by DT on an otherwise wonderful frame.

    Again, in my case this is no big deal. I just have a few scruff marks on the chainstay and a FD that shifts wonderfully. If the interference were enough to damage the FD then I'd surely know it by now.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

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  22. #22
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Again, in my case this is no big deal. I just have a few scruff marks on the chainstay and a FD that shifts wonderfully. If the interference were enough to damage the FD then I'd surely know it by now.
    I agree, it's no big deal.

    This happens on some HL bikes with symmetrical chainstays. Same issue with my UZZI SLX and I raised the FD a couple mm to compensate. It was actually worst on the SLX since I managed to dent the tube where the FD was attached when the chainstay hit the FD at bottom out.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  23. #23
    Flyin Canine
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Sure, I could raise my FD too but the chain rub on the FD when in the smaller gears gets pretty severe. That's not acceptable. It's a small design oversight by DT on an otherwise wonderful frame.

    Again, in my case this is no big deal. I just have a few scruff marks on the chainstay and a FD that shifts wonderfully. If the interference were enough to damage the FD then I'd surely know it by now.
    Hey Squeak, Even with a two ring setup I would recommend against running in gears 6-9 in the back while in the granny unless you have your chain line spaced out extra. It places the chain at an angle and causes more wear. When I get to 5th gear in the granny I always just shift to the middle ring and go back to 2nd or 3rd in the back. I also do not run it in middle ring/large cog for the same reason.

    I would also agree with TS that chainsuck does not seem to be related to front der setup but chain drop does. Chain drop also seems dependant on chainline.

    Hey Leight can you give more detail on th exact way the the chain gets wedged so we can make sure we are diagnosing the problem properly?

  24. #24
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanedawg
    Hey Squeak, Even with a two ring setup I would recommend against running in gears 6-9 in the back while in the granny unless you have your chain line spaced out extra. It places the chain at an angle and causes more wear. When I get to 5th gear in the granny I always just shift to the middle ring and go back to 2nd or 3rd in the back. I also do not run it in middle ring/large cog for the same reason.
    Yup. I absolutely agree that an upshift to the middle ring is the more appropriate move for cogs 6-9.. But in order to avoid the FD hitting the chainstay I was having rubbing in gear 4 & 5 which I consider to be "safe" middle gears. And clearance testing was perfomed with shock mounted sans spring so I know it only occurs at maximum compression. Again, no big deal.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanedawg

    I would also agree with TS that chainsuck does not seem to be related to front der setup but chain drop does. Chain drop also seems dependant on chainline.

    Hey Leight can you give more detail on th exact way the the chain gets wedged so we can make sure we are diagnosing the problem properly?
    Tried it again last night and found that the chain suck is occuring when I shift from small ring to middle ring under load. It seems to happen easier too if I'm in 7th to 9th cog on the rear (chain more off line) The chain is getting sucked up and wedged between the big ring and ChStay.

    I'm going to try and clean the shipping grease off the new chain and re-lube to free it up, maybe because it is brand new, the links aren't free enough to drop quickly.
    Last edited by Leight; 10-20-2005 at 03:45 PM.

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