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  1. #1
    FM
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    Manadatory reading for homers

    [SIZE="5"]Linky[/SIZE]

    I don't think many people on this board are seeking sponsorship, but the turner forum was the first thing that came to mind when I read this article.
    Ever posted pictures of a broken frame?
    Ever dissed another brand?
    Ever made a statement like "Air shocks aren't suitable for long travel bikes"? Or, "Coil will always be better than air" or "Flats will always be better than SPDs"? etc etc.
    Then this article is especially for you!

  2. #2
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    I guess part of sponsorship kissing-up to join the the good old boys club. Corporate corruption.

    I disagree with Dave's post. There actually are many products that are put into the market that are crap and the way it's sometimes found out, it by the end user. If everyone bit their tongue, then the companies could continue to make even more junk. Sure, he has a point about the exact same pedal, but that's a silly example. I think the legit bashing is done to truly inferior products.

    What the internet really does is help hold companies accountable. So if it screws up sponsorship, oh well. Let the few people who was to kiss butt, lie for sponsorship. But the majority of riders will not benefit by keeping their keyboards quiet. It's the majority that matters.

  3. #3
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    Good article. Not everyone understands how fast the industry is making technology leaps. And not everything is always going to work perfectly the first go around. Bashing products only slows things down. Healthy brand competition only means one thing, better products for us to ride!

  4. #4
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    Couldn't have said it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I guess part of sponsorship kissing-up to join the the good old boys club. Corporate corruption.

    I disagree with Dave's post. There actually are many products that are put into the market that are crap and the way it's sometimes found out, it by the end user. If everyone bit their tongue, then the companies could continue to make even more junk. Sure, he has a point about the exact same pedal, but that's a silly example. I think the legit bashing is done to truly inferior products.

    What the internet really does is help hold companies accountable. So if it screws up sponsorship, oh well. Let the few people who was to kiss butt, lie for sponsorship. But the majority of riders will not benefit by keeping their keyboards quiet. It's the majority that matters.
    Before MTBR came into my life, I used to rely Mountain Bike Action for thier unbiased reviews. Amazing how all their best advertisers got great reviews. I think most people on the Forums are middle aged working weekend warriors who are posting honest reviews/opinions and couldn't care less about getting sponsored.
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  5. #5
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    I see nothing wrong in comparing products from different companies, expressing an opinion on whether they're any good or not or posting about things that break.

    When I've *****ed about a product in the past, because it either broke or failed to perform, I've learned from the responses that my experience is either a one-off and the products is normally a great one. This has led me to discover I've either set the thing up wrong or that I'm ok to ask for a replacement for the same thing. Or, I've learnt that other folks have been having the same problems and that this item is a piece of crap.

    In general companies that make crappy products are not making 'mistakes', they're cutting corners in quality to reduce their own costs.
    It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by unclekittykiller
    Good article. Not everyone understands how fast the industry is making technology leaps. And not everything is always going to work perfectly the first go around. Bashing products only slows things down. Healthy brand competition only means one thing, better products for us to ride!
    Some companies have had 5 goes, still pushing out stuff for Beta on the buying public. There are other companies with customers "that know", but their supporters give them ten goes, along with allowing them to rewrite history every couple of years. What about them? Where's the limit? In this case, bashing could help relieve the buying public of non-functioning goods that are expensive and still continuing.

  7. #7
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    I agree with what he is saying - if you have an opinion, back it up. It bothers me when people type "XYZ sucks." about a product with no solid reason why. Except for clipless pedals. They suck.

    Or they know a buddy who broke one (and he breaks everything). Or they had one and it never broke (but 2 foot drops are the max). Or they work in a shop and have never seen one break (but it's a new product and they've only sold a handful). Either way the sample size is too small to make a conclusive statement about the suckyness or non-suckyness of the product.

    On the other side, I think every time I've read a thread about the [you know who] headset, there was a story about how it broke upon installation. So there quickly comes a point where it's well known that the product does indeed suck, the company deserves to get a public kick in the ass, and people need to be warned.

    As a consumer, I'm very appreciative of people who post firsthand experiences with products and the problems they encounter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow
    I think most people on the Forums are middle aged working weekend warriors who are posting honest reviews/opinions and couldn't care less about getting sponsored.
    Exactly. But change "most" to "virtually all". How many pros are posting on the forum day in and day out? Hell no. They aren't sitting in front of a computer reading about bike parts when their job is to RIP on a bike and they have a stream of free components / protos coming in.

  9. #9
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    So what do people think about Crank Brothers?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    So what do people think about Crank Brothers?
    Awesome customer service!


  11. #11
    I'm more of a dog person
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Some companies have had 5 goes, still pushing out stuff for Beta on the buying public. There are other companies with customers "that know", but their supporters give them ten goes, along with allowing them to rewrite history every couple of years. What about them? Where's the limit? In this case, bashing could help relieve the buying public of non-functioning goods that are expensive and still continuing.
    i hear ya. bashing products that need bashing is one thing. but there are other cases as well. brand zealots often bash other brands just because they are not "their brand". even if the other brands are not lemons and have good performance or at least have good CS. i think that is what the writer of the article is trying to say.

  12. #12
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    "Ever posted pictures of a broken frame?"
    no
    "Ever dissed another brand?"
    Yes, and I believe that I have usually owned the product and thrashed it myself, and others have done the same, and reached similar conclusions

    "Ever made a statement like "Air shocks aren't suitable for long travel bikes"? Or, "Coil will always be better than air" or "Flats will always be better than SPDs"? etc etc.
    Then this article is especially for you!"

    These three items are different than the first two, and are different than the topic of the link.
    I don't give a rats ass about sponsorship. Dissing a product is a part of competitive manufacturing. It's it's good, I praise it, if it sucks, I diss it, plain and simple.
    FM, are you fishing out of boredom?
    ****

  13. #13
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    FM, are you fishing out of boredom?
    Oh, hell no!

    I am glad this thread stirred up some good conversation! Jaybo hasn't been around recently, so I figured I'd help him out.

    Hey I will be honest, I know what I like, and Turner bikes consistentely nail it. So, they're my first choice by default.

    I've got a buddy who recently broke the downtube on his $500, made in taiwan, bought on eBay all mountain frame. The break was arguably his fault as he was riding a technical downhill with a totally blown shock. The MFG warranteed it, no questions asked. The bike rides great and has killer geometry, I might add!

    Seems like a lot of my buddies have new rides, no Turners, and I have to say I am impressed with all of them! There's just a lot of good options these days, not one is right for everybody.

    Sure there are some bad products out there, I think Dave's article covered this well with the statement "everybody makes mistakes". And then there are some companies that just should be avoided, no denying that. What I like about the article is that it brings up giving components the benefit of the doubt until you've tried them, and the importance of separating opinion from experience when talking smack on the intrawebz.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Oh, hell no!


    What I like about the article is that it brings up giving components the benefit of the doubt until you've tried them, and the importance of separating opinion from experience when talking smack on the intrawebz.
    Ah, all good then.
    I'm sure you allready read the thread in the transition forum; not a bad example of spewing crap on the intrazzzzwebby when you really don't know what the frack you're talking about. Quite entertaining too.
    #$^@#$%^ Transition
    ****

  15. #15
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    Posting pictures of broken frames are a favorite of mine, regardless of brand. As the article stated, many people seem to take pride in having witnessed such failures, as if the frame considered what it was being asked to do, and just gave up!

    Seems like half the time, we find out later the frame was bought used, the shock was blown or undersprung, or the frame was being used for a style of riding it wasn't designed for.

    As for the warranty, it's the manufacturers discretion, so I can't see how posting those pictures on the internet, before calling, is going to encourage them. Bonus points for these posts when the include "What should I do?"

    It's no different then ordering a salad at a restaurant and finding a slug in the organic lettuce.
    Do you stand up and yell "LOOK EVERYBODY, THERE'S A SLUG IN MY SALAD! OOH MY GOD!!!!!!! I DEMAND A REFUND!!!!".
    Very classy.

    Now, lets say your brand new frame broke, you were using it as intended, and with the correct sag, seatpost length, reccomended fork etc. You call the MFG and they tell you to get lost. Thats a different situation I think. But honestly, how often do we see that? I suspect the previous scenario happens far more often.

  16. #16
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    There's an interesting exchange in the shox forum regarding a pump adaptor snapping off in the fork. Seems both the custy and the mfgr made some valid points. How its being handled is also interesting.

    IMO it's always better to work things out offline until you feel you've been blown off. Then make your case on the web. Ranting and dissing will certainly get a response but level headed explanations help everyone including the readers, mfgr and the offended.

    That thread about hub size was hilarious. "Nobody told me they changed seatpost to 31.8! This company suxors!!! "
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  17. #17
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    Oh yeah

    All the BB height debate is another classic example. The whole RFX thead is really.

    So many people comparing static BB heights from different bikes, but not acknowledging that all these bikes have different amounts of travel, different fork lengths, different tire sizes, wheelbase lengths, headsets, and suspension behavior. As if there's a magical height that is best for all builds and riding styles.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Oh, hell no!

    Sure there are some bad products out there, I think Dave's article covered this well with the statement "everybody makes mistakes". And then there are some companies that just should be avoided, no denying that. What I like about the article is that it brings up giving components the benefit of the doubt until you've tried them, and the importance of separating opinion from experience when talking smack on the intrawebz.
    I don't think "everybody makes mistakes" covers all bad products out there. There is poor design, poor manufacture and poor materials that can lead to dodgy products. Some manufacturers catch their mistakes and put out recalls, some don't and it's only until folks start to complain publicly that problems get fixed.

    Hayes El Camino's sucked and maybe all the public *****ing about them was one of the drivers to develop the Stroker.
    It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.

  19. #19
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    There is poor design, poor manufacture and poor materials that can lead to dodgy products.
    Of course. The point of this thread is that, the manner in which that is communicated on the internet is often not fair to the product or manufacturer.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Of course. The point of this thread is that, the manner in which that is communicated on the internet is often not fair to the product or manufacturer.
    Fair enough, the manufacturer or LBS should be your first port of call to get problems resolved, but sharing the process of getting resolution seems ok. I cracked my frame, I've gone to the LBS, they've handled everything with the builder and now we're all good is an interesting thread to follow.

    Where once, the only people to find out I'd cracked a frame would be my mates on the ride or down the pub afterwards, today a forum like this is just an extension of that conversation. And good or bad manufacturers have to accept as 'fair', their products being openly discussed without facts or reason.
    It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    Where once, the only people to find out I'd cracked a frame would be my mates on the ride or down the pub afterwards, today a forum like this is just an extension of that conversation. And good or bad manufacturers have to accept as 'fair', their products being openly discussed without facts or reason.

  22. #22
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    Speaking of Marz, remember at the head of their problems, when people were complaining about the clunk due to bad bushings out of the box, they claimed it was normal and charged many people for bushing changes, then under pressure here, they finally began to admit the casting problems, among others.

    Now let's say some users have inside info, but those users are consumers, not these industry guys. Would it be a disservice for those folks to not say anything when they have info that can help other consumers?

  23. #23
    Captain Underpants
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    So what do people think about Crank Brothers?
    I think they make great bikes.

  24. #24
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    link
    That's a link to the MC forum where they are doing the damage themselves because they've been stringing along a customer since 2007, promising him a replacement frame, but not delivering. I figure they were hoping he'd give up. Not a good way for a company just starting up with an old company to get things going. They even asked for him to be banned in the past, for having a legit claim against them.

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