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  1. #1
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    Lots of exciting threads to comment on--here's another

    If my Santa Cruz Superlight truly is a single pivot design--I say that because it really truly only has one pivot--what semantical hocus pocus is going on to describe a TNT Turner as a "simple single pivot"?

    Yeah, yeah, I know some are pointing to the link that used to be horst-like is now above the rear axle, but did the definition of a single pivot change at the same time? Has the definition of "simple" changed? Help me out here. I count four pivots on my '07 Spot, one on my '07 Superlight, yet they're both described as "simple single pivots". For Cactuscorn's sake here I'm not going to put this smiley ( ) at the end of this sentence.
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    As I understand it (big caveat emptor here) a single pivot design means there is only one pivot between the axle and the bottom bracket along the chainstay - the rear axle is therefore constrained to a fixed arcing path around that one pivot. You can have high single pivots and low single pivots that define the wheel path relative to the bottom bracket (not relative to the pivot point itself).

    The "simple" part is more subjective, and not simple at all. That's where all the math comes in, my eyes glaze over, and I reach for the Hornitos.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  3. #3
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    Well...you know...I just...well...

    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    As I understand it (big caveat emptor here) a single pivot design means there is only one pivot between the axle and the bottom bracket along the chainstay - the rear axle is therefore constrained to a fixed arcing path around that one pivot. You can have high single pivots and low single pivots that define the wheel path relative to the bottom bracket (not relative to the pivot point itself).

    The "simple" part is more subjective, and not simple at all. That's where all the math comes in, my eyes glaze over, and I reach for the Hornitos.
    I think that "simple single pivot" is just some marketing term to dismiss anything that isn't a horst link, if you catch my drift. Like, just because there isn't an HL all "simple single pivots" behave the same. As much as I like my Superlight, it doesn't really react to hits on the trail like my Spot. We need a new suspension vocabulary is what I think.

    Speaking of Hornitos--I used to be a big Tequila drinker, way back when I had knees that functioned properly. I bought a bottle of Herradura 100% Agave Tequila a long time ago in Mexico. I've kept it all this time, cap is still sealed, date on the inside of the label is 1983. I thought maybe it would turn into some heirloom Tequila, aged to perfection. Turns out Tequila doesn't age like wine, it's as good as it's gonna get when it's bottled.

    I still don't think I'll open it, ever. If I want some Tequila these days, I'll just buy some Hornitos. BTW, ever heard of Eucario Gonzales? I was in Tequila, Mexico, and asked the proprietor of the biggest liquor store in town "what's your best Tequila?" and he sold me a bottle of EG.
    Last edited by xcguy; 06-20-2012 at 05:07 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I think that "simple single pivot" is just some marketing term to dismiss anything that isn't a horst link, if you catch my drift.
    I'm going to go with a huge, whopping BINGO on that one!
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  5. #5
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    Funny, I was thinking of this just the other day. I also have a Santa Cruz Superlight and am really close to pulling the trigger on a Sultan.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    As I understand it (big caveat emptor here) a single pivot design means there is only one pivot between the axle and the bottom bracket along the chainstay - the rear axle is therefore constrained to a fixed arcing path around that one pivot. You can have high single pivots and low single pivots that define the wheel path relative to the bottom bracket (not relative to the pivot point itself).

    The "simple" part is more subjective, and not simple at all. That's where all the math comes in, my eyes glaze over, and I reach for the Hornitos.
    That nails it.

    It doesn't matter how many pivots are on the bike in the end if there is a single, solid link at the pivot near the bottom bracket and the axle, and it's the same motion as a single pivot. You can have 1224523463546 pivots above that to the shock and still have a single pivot-like bike in arc of the rear tire versus the bottom bracket.

    However, in theory at least, you can have a variable function of how that arc interacts with a shock with a complex set of pivot designs due to that arc.

    What that means is the curve of motion of the rear wheel is not the complete story.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That nails it.

    It doesn't matter how many pivots are on the bike in the end if there is a single, solid link at the pivot near the bottom bracket and the axle, and it's the same motion as a single pivot. You can have 1224523463546 pivots above that to the shock and still have a single pivot-like bike in arc of the rear tire versus the bottom bracket.

    However, in theory at least, you can have a variable function of how that arc interacts with a shock with a complex set of pivot designs due to that arc.

    What that means is the curve of motion of the rear wheel is not the complete story.
    So will the Turner behave in a differant way than my Superlight? I never could put my finger on it but the more I ride my Superlight the more it feels like it gets hung up in the techy kinda climbs.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  8. #8
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    indeed! our young climber catches on fast.
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  9. #9
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    So will the Turner behave in a differant way than my Superlight? I never could put my finger on it but the more I ride my Superlight the more it feels like it gets hung up in the techy kinda climbs.
    Yep. It has nothing to do with single-pivot vs. horst link, TNT, or whatever happens at the drop-out end. It has everything to do with the main pivot placement.

    The high/forward pivot placement used on the superlight and other similar designs, creates a longer lever which results in chain growth, brake jack and pedal feedback/ lockout.

    I hate to say it, but years ago I owned three superlights years ago (the first two broke, the third was visibly out of alignment, all were maintenance nightmares). I never felt the bikes did anything particularly well. Just not the right bike for me. Sorry to hate on santa cruz, just was very unimpressed with the whole high/forward single pivot design. The newer VPP bikes seem much nicer though.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That nails it.

    It doesn't matter how many pivots are on the bike in the end if there is a single, solid link at the pivot near the bottom bracket and the axle, and it's the same motion as a single pivot. You can have 1224523463546 pivots above that to the shock and still have a single pivot-like bike in arc of the rear tire versus the bottom bracket.

    However, in theory at least, you can have a variable function of how that arc interacts with a shock with a complex set of pivot designs due to that arc.

    What that means is the curve of motion of the rear wheel is not the complete story.
    I think it matters more when said suspension is turned transverse, as in automobiles. When used as a trailing link suspension, which is basically what we're talking here, there are larger factors that determine the dynamics than just one pivot position in an ambiguously large region "in front of and below" the rear axle.

  11. #11
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    "Simple" single pivot

    I'm not here to defend my '07 Superlight, it's just a bike I always wanted to try out. It's got a PUSHed RP23 with a high volume can on it and I'm always amazed how plush it rides. But I'd rather take the Burner on really rocky trails as it seems to melt through the rocks whereas the Superlight does seem to be hung up on square-edge hits. But we're talking degrees of goodness here, in a four inch bike setting.

    When I'm on my '07 Spot it really burns my azz when someone on the trail will say something like "so how do like that single pivot?" So far I haven't had any idea what they're talking. Now I do and I still will think they're FOS.

    If I only had my Superlight or Spot or Burner I wouldn't have any comparisons to fret about. Even if I had a DW bike and it did something else that none of my bikes did that certainly wouldn't mean my three bikes suck. Now if it would stop snowing I'd go for a ride on my...uh...which one...?
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  12. #12
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    Old School Single Pivot

    I got on my first full suspension ride with a ProFlex, and perhaps I'm completely wrong here, but it had a similar suspension as the Superlight. The pivot was above the axle but less forward than the SL, and the chainstay was very similar.
    I loved that bike. I had nothing to compare it with, and when I switched to my Burner there was some readjustment, probably moreso due to the geometry and fork (By the way, does anyone else out there think the Girvin/Noleen forks were just awesome?). I feel much more confident on the Burner on techy downhills and at speed. And I don't even have the XR rockers or pushed RP3 (that's next). It just feels more solid while being compliant. If I had any misgivings about the change, however, it would be the chain slap. I sure liked how the elevated chainstay kept the chain from rattling into it all the time...
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  13. #13
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    Sounds like you should have been on a Bullit

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Yep. It has nothing to do with single-pivot vs. horst link, TNT, or whatever happens at the drop-out end. It has everything to do with the main pivot placement.

    The high/forward pivot placement used on the superlight and other similar designs, creates a longer lever which results in chain growth, brake jack and pedal feedback/ lockout.

    I hate to say it, but years ago I owned three superlights years (the first two broke, the third was visibly out of alignment, all were maintenance nightmares). I never felt the bikes did anything particularly well. Just not the right bike for me. Sorry to hate on santa cruz, just was very unimpressed with the whole high/forward single pivot design. The newer VPP bikes seem much nicer though.
    I weigh 160 and haven't beat the crap out of mine but it's been maintenance free. And unbroken. I guess everyone has their own tolerance for perceived "brake jack, pedal feedback etc etc". I've had someone shudder when relating the "pedal feedback" they experienced on some bike...he followed that with "I really HATE pedal feedback". I just nodded, wondering what he was talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by insighter
    I got on my first full suspension ride with a ProFlex, and perhaps I'm completely wrong here, but it had a similar suspension as the Superlight. The pivot was above the axle but less forward than the SL, and the chainstay was very similar.
    I loved that bike. I had nothing to compare it with, and when I switched to my Burner there was some readjustment, probably moreso due to the geometry and fork (By the way, does anyone else out there think the Girvin/Noleen forks were just awesome?). I feel much more confident on the Burner on techy downhills and at speed. And I don't even have the XR rockers or pushed RP3 (that's next). It just feels more solid while being compliant. If I had any misgivings about the change, however, it would be the chain slap. I sure liked how the elevated chainstay kept the chain from rattling into it all the time...
    There was actually a patent number on the K2/Proflex main pivot position. The catalog I had from 98 or 99 indicated it clearly.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    Sounds like you should have been on a bullit.
    Yeah this was all right around teh time when the "new" heckler came out, and getting credit towards a more durable bike made sense to me. Santa Cruz said no for some reason

  16. #16
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    Yea the main difference in the number of pivots is how the shock is actuated through the travel...some refer to a bike like durrent turners (all of their bikes including the DHR) as linkage actuated single pivots. Just allows greater flexability of the change in rate shock travel/wheel travel.

    Now two other things that can make a big difference. The pivot determines the center of rotation of the rear wheel. A high pivot causes the wheel to arc more rearward in initial travel, where as a lower pivot will cause the wheel to arc more up and foreward..
    This same geometry is involved in chain force reaction...ie a high pivot will tend to be pulled out of sag (anti aquat), and stiffen with increasing chain tension.

    Next big difference, Turners and most bikes (even more so with some linkage activated bikes) use a progressive suspension rate. The leverage ratio changes so that the further the wheel is into its travel, the more it moves the shock (moving toward a 1:1 ratio) This provides for soft initial travel, yet bottom out prevention.
    Your superlight is the opposite....a regressive or falling rate design. As the wheel travels further into the travel, the ratio goes away from 1:1....the shock moves less for each change in wheel position. This results in a bike that tends to ride high, resist small amplitued inputs, yet will use lots of travel with a bit impact.

    Falling rate designs were in use a while ago in semi-response to very progressive air shocks. This combo can work (sort of two wrongs make a right-ish) but it is limmiting. Put a modern 'linear' air shock, or a coil shock on a falling rate bike like the superlight, and things get 'odd'.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by insighter
    By the way, does anyone else out there think the Girvin/Noleen forks were just awesome?
    nope. wait... im sorry. dentists, orthodontists, orthopedic and plastic surgeons just LOVED EM! i almost bought a 959 cuz i was sold on the design, weight and looks. i was on the 1st run waitin list in '95 but dropped it for my burner when i saw a few fork failures that hurt folks and swingarm failures that proflex didnt honor cuz they claimed it wasnt part of the "frame" and only the "frame" was under warranty. then there was the parts unavailability issues. phoenix was burried in broken pro flex's. absolutely true storys pal. i worked for a dealer.
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  18. #18
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    Lots of people here still ride those ProFlexes. I didn't see any of the last year models that were all carbon fiber, however. These guys swear by their Crosslink forks. And yes, they are the type cc mentioned above.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    nope. wait... im sorry. dentists, orthodontists, orthopedic and plastic surgeons just LOVED EM! i almost bought a 959 cuz i was sold on the design, weight and looks. i was on the 1st run waitin list in '95 but dropped it for my burner when i saw a few fork failures that hurt folks and swingarm failures that proflex didnt honor cuz they claimed it wasnt part of the "frame" and only the "frame" was under warranty. then there was the parts unavailability issues. phoenix was burried in broken pro flex's. absolutely true storys pal. i worked for a dealer.
    That must've sucked for all those folks-- I guess I got lucky, since I rode the hell out of the bike for six years without incident, and I didn't even have an MD . One of the things I loved about the fork was the great tracking. It seemed much less prone to lateral flexing than all the other forks out there. But maybe I'm being nostalgic...
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  20. #20
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    The biggest difference between the Superlight-like suspension and a Turner single pivot is that aside from the pivot location, which, as FM mentioned, is the single most important factor affecting pedaling performance, the Turner is a single pivot with a linkage actuated shock, whereas the Superlight is a "simple" single pivot as the relationship between the rear wheel and the shock actuation is fixed, there is no linkage. And to add to it, Turner, like Ventana, Yeti (with except of the 303) and Konas and many others, are low single pivots, whereas the Superlight and the Heckler and Bullit, etc, are high single pivots.

    _MK

  21. #21
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    I hear you

    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    The biggest difference between the Superlight-like suspension and a Turner single pivot is that aside from the pivot location, which, as FM mentioned, is the single most important factor affecting pedaling performance, the Turner is a single pivot with a linkage actuated shock, whereas the Superlight is a "simple" single pivot as the relationship between the rear wheel and the shock actuation is fixed, there is no linkage. And to add to it, Turner, like Ventana, Yeti (with except of the 303) and Konas and many others, are low single pivots, whereas the Superlight and the Heckler and Bullit, etc, are high single pivots.

    _MK
    When I was getting the SL shock PUSHed, Darren said there was just a limit of what they could do given the simplicity of the SL's shock actuation. And I agree with all you said about the differences with my Spot's linkages and the SL's, whether or not anyone notices if the SL's is a high or low pivot.

    It's funny how it's just stuck in the minds of a lot of observers that my Spot "just a single pivot", as if that really is an accurate description of how it's suspension works.

    Of course, no one has said anything about my Burner's horst link pivot action. Try as I might I just can't tell a marked difference, if any, even though it would make sense that the rocker's pivot position either behind or in front of the seat tube that would somehow affect how the shock actuates. That, combined with the horst/or no horst link---well, I'm sure Cactuscorn would agree that kinda makes me

    Think I'll just ride.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    Of course, no one has said anything about my Burner's horst link pivot action.
    And noone will. There is general consensus here that whatever DT does for a given year is better than what he has done previously; and since DT puts it out, it has to be superior. The TNT/HL discussion came and went and people firmly stand by the fact that the TNT is superior to the HL. That should be buried and you either drink the kool aid or you don't. There are physics involved there, but who cares, so let's just leave it at that.

    The main pivot location has a lot to do with how much freedom you have for the geometry manipulation. Putting a lot of metal behind the seat tube puts a limit on how much travel you can obtain without lengthening the chain stays or steepening up the seat tube, etc. There is also an effect on "plushness" and stresses on the seat tube, but I believe that has been extensively discussed as well.

    _MK

  23. #23
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    +1 on what MK said, we're all full of crap. Only whitepapers matter.

    I don't think folks were generally saying the TNT was superior but many, myself included, have expressed a preference after comparing the two. Of the few who tried both of Turner's executions and preferred the HL, there were very few who took the time to relate what they felt and why besides "phyziks sez its better". That's not a claim that DT is magic, just that he managed to get his B to work very much like his A.

    To repeat my personal experience I've owned both rear triangles and compared them B2B on an otherwise identical setup. The differences were small, I like how the TNT handles better. I eventually sold my HL tri and went to the TNT. I happen to like how it pedals, resists climbing squat and forward pitch under hard braking and descending.

    I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a bigger change than a custom shock, Gravity retarder or jumping 2 revisions in rockers. But it's nice.

    Saying a TNT (Fauxbar) is just a single pivot design isn't wrong...just not particularly meaningful.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 05-14-2008 at 10:03 AM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    The biggest difference between the Superlight-like suspension and a Turner single pivot is that aside from the pivot location, which, as FM mentioned, is the single most important factor affecting pedaling performance, the Turner is a single pivot with a linkage actuated shock, whereas the Superlight is a "simple" single pivot as the relationship between the rear wheel and the shock actuation is fixed, there is no linkage. And to add to it, Turner, like Ventana, Yeti (with except of the 303) and Konas and many others, are low single pivots, whereas the Superlight and the Heckler and Bullit, etc, are high single pivots.

    _MK

    I'm hearing in the present state of the Turner rocker design, the location of the three pivots about the rocker are more important to the ride characteristics than most any other pivot location change, including going from HL to TNT.

    ...and thanks for the lesson on single pivots straight from the 10 page ads of Specialized and from the EW site.

  25. #25
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    Another Hornitos please with salt and lime......
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

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