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  1. #1
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    Just heard from Paul Components....

    .....and according to Paul himself, they will only be producing 100 of the 4" rocker arms in June. I think we really need to get a list and do the group order thing. The price will be $165.

  2. #2
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    I purchased my Burner from Wrench Science and I was able to get the 4" travel rockers from Wrench Science. I don't know if they have any left but it may be worth a call.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye_nut
    .....and according to Paul himself, they will only be producing 100 of the 4" rocker arms in June. I think we really need to get a list and do the group order thing. The price will be $165.
    At that price, why do a group order? If Paul fab'd the original rockers, they probably don't need to re-tool. $165 is steep, but my gut tells me that he'll get it. I'd only do a group order if Paul would give a significant discount. A group order would simply things for Paul:

    1) Only 1 order to deal with
    2) Ship to one location
    3) deal with 1 person
    4) only need to produce as many as ordered
    5) lower profit


    vs single orders

    1) 100 seperate orders (but at $165, not a problem)
    2) 100 ship locations (see #1)
    3) 100 customers (see #1)
    4) potential to get "stuck" with excess inventory (small risk)
    5) potential for larger profit than single group sale

    I don't blame Paul for wanting to do the seperate deal....for $165 a pop. Turner already let him know about the "interest" in the rockers.

    The rockers should probably be selling for something in the $50 - $60 range, not $165. If Paul fab'd the original rockers, they probably don't need to re-tool. If they do need to re-tool, then $165 might be cheap.

    This reminds me of the $200 - $300 ti springs. Paul knows that he can probably sell them for $165. It's a small price compared to the frame.

  4. #4
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    Perhaps someone could call Turner and ask them if they can negotiate to purchase a lot of 50 from Paul components. They may be able to get a better rate and be willing to undertake the purchase if we can guarantee the pruchase of 20 or so of the sets from Turner.

  5. #5
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    That sounds cool with me Steve, hopefully we can get a discount if we purchase enough. Like I said, he only plans on producing 100 of these rockers. So maybe if its guarenteed that he will sell all 100 of them, we could get a pretty sweet deal. When I found that they were going to be $165, I thought that was a little steep, but I wanted to see what everyone else thought. Are you going to go ahead and post this in the General discussion board?

    Buckeye

  6. #6
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    New question here. XCE Owner question

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Yeah, I'll make the post in a few minutes. I do think the price is going to be a major deterrant. The fact of the matter is is that there are XCE owners out there with 4" bikes, regardless of the fact that they have it through the shock stroke configuration. Anyway, they may not be interested at all.

    So it looks like the primary group will be the Burner crowd and maybe a few o2 folks. At $165 for .4" , it doesn't seem like Paul is going to sell the 100.
    So if I understand this correct (I'm simple minded). As an XCE owner I could use these same rockers as a new way to introduce a standard 1.5" stroke shock like the Romic or a 1.5" ProPedal shock to my existing XCE?

    If that were the case, then it might be a winner for more people.
    See You On The Trails!

  7. #7
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    Yeah, I'd like to know who would be interested. When you say .4" for $165, that makes is seem even less justifiable. That's definately an interesting way to look at it!

    Hell, for another $85 you can buy a Fox Vanilla R with a 1.75" stroke (available now from cambria) and be done with it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Yes.

    The X type rockers are 2.334 ratio, while the XR's are 2.667 (of stroke to wheel travel).
    Then I'm definitely in on this one.
    See You On The Trails!

  9. #9
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    You guys got it good...

    Price out ventana 6" rockers for an x5/el salts and you won't be complaining any longer. ;-)

    -Sp

    PS, most group buys (non bike) that I have been involved with usually involve drop shipment directly to the individuals part of the group buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    At that price, why do a group order? If Paul fab'd the original rockers, they probably don't need to re-tool. $165 is steep, but my gut tells me that he'll get it. I'd only do a group order if Paul would give a significant discount.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Yes.

    The X type rockers are 2.334 ratio, while the XR's are 2.667 (of stroke to wheel travel).
    These ratios that you list are those for The XCE and do you know what it was for the 02?

  11. #11
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    Let's do some rocker math

    I ride a 2001 O2 (and a 2001 RFX, but that’s not relevant to this thread). I’m fairly familiar with the various Turner rockers, but I am a bit confused by this thread, and I’m hoping someone can clear it up for me.

    9 months ago, I purchased rockers directly from Turner to retrofit my O2 for more travel. My question is: what rockers did I purchase? And are the rockers being discussed in this thread different, or the same??

    One suggestion I will make is to agree on well-defined way to identify a particular rocker. The simplest thing to measure is the leverage ratio of the rocker itself: Each rocker has three holes, one for the shock mount, one for the seattube (center) pivot mount, and one for the seatstay mount. Measure the distance between holes (center-to-center, of course) for the seatstay-to-center, and for the shock-to-center. Here are the numbers I measured on my 02:

    1) Stock 02 rockers = 12.5cm stay-to-center, and 8cm shock-to-center. Ratio = 12.5/8 = 1.56

    2) Retro-fitted rockers = 14.75cm stay-to-center, 8cm shock-to-center. Ratio = 14.75/8 = 1.84

    The shock in both cases is a Fox air 6.5/1.5. This much I know: the rockers of case (1) produce 3.1” of travel on my O2, as spec’d in original Turner collateral. The rockers of case (2) therefore produce 1.84/1.56*3.1 = 3.66” of travel (along with an accompanying increase in bottom bracket height, and slightly steeper head/seat angles, if the fork crown-to-axle length doesn’t change).

    Changing from rocker (1) to rocker (2) appears to agree EXACTLY with the corresponding change in specs from the original O2 to the current Burner. To be exact, the specs <3.1” travel, 12.4” BB, 70.5 deg HA with 80mm fork> change to specs <3.6” travel, 12.9” BB, 70 deg head angle with 100mm fork>. Therefore I believe that an original O2 retro-fitted with “stock” XCE rockers produces an essentially identical bike to the current Burner.

    So again, my QUESTION: what rockers did I purchase? And are the rockers being discussed in this thread different, or the same??

    I understood, at the time of purchase, that the rockers I purchased in case (2) were identical to the stock rockers used for the XCE with a 1.75 stroke Fox coil. This thread seems to suggest a THIRD choice of rocker, but it is difficult to be sure, since the ratios discussed here are shock-travel-to-wheel-travel ratios. Unfortunately, due to the way the rear swingarm linkage geometry produces wheel travel, it is VERY inconvenient/difficult to measure this ratio directly.

    If a THIRD rocker is available, can someone tell me the lever arm ratio of this rocker? Since the leverage ratio on the rocker, as I describe above, is extremely simple to measure, I’m hoping one of you will bust out the tape measure.

    If this “third” rocker does, indeed, produce 4” travel from a 1.5” stroke shock on an XCE, then my math suggests that the lever-arm ratio of the rocker must be 2.15. If the shock-to-center leverarm is fixed at 8cm, then the center-to-stay distance of the rocker must be 17.2cm. CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THIS?

    Another point of confusion: if this “third” rocker produces 4” of travel on an XCE with a 6.5/1.5 shock, then it seems that it should produce MORE than 4” of travel on an O2. By my math, it should produce ~4.25”. This may be explained by the different length swingarms used on the XCE versus O2.

    Sorry to bore everyone with math! And I haven’t even opened the more complex issue of the orientation of the rocker. (The leverarm ratio is not the only factor; there is also the issue of the angle between the lever arm axis, which determines if the additional travel is created at the end of the stroke versus the beginning of the stroke).

    If someone can definitively explain the impact of this rocker on the O2, Burner, and XCE, then I may be willing to plunk down some cash. Ideally Paul’s or Turner should create a chart which defines the geometry & travel of each bike for each rocker option – it sounds complicated, but in reality, Turner has all the data on their CAD SW and they could probably do this in 10 minutes ……

  12. #12
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan
    So again, my QUESTION: what rockers did I purchase? And are the rockers being discussed in this thread different, or the same?? I understood, at the time of purchase, that the rockers I purchased in case (2) were identical to the stock rockers used for the XCE with a 1.75 stroke Fox coil. This thread seems to suggest a THIRD choice of rocker, but it is difficult to be sure, since the ratios discussed here are shock-travel-to-wheel-travel ratios.
    They are talking about different rockers. There are 3 total: O2, the original XCE, and the XCE Romic rockers. They are discussing the longer Romic rockers with an even higher leverage. Your "new" rockers (the original stock XCE and new Burner rockers) have an "X" stamped on the inside near the seatstay pivot. The "Romic" rockers which give 4" of travel with a 1.5" stroke shock have an "XR" stamped inside. They measure 8.2cm shock to center and 18.5cm stay to center, or 18.5/8.2 = 2.25.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  13. #13
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    4.65-Spot?

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    They are talking about different rockers. There are 3 total: O2, the original XCE, and the XCE Romic rockers. They are discussing the longer Romic rockers with an even higher leverage. Your "new" rockers (the original stock XCE and new Burner rockers) have an "X" stamped on the inside near the seatstay pivot. The "Romic" rockers which give 4" of travel with a 1.5" stroke shock have an "XR" stamped inside. They measure 8.2cm shock to center and 18.5cm stay to center, or 18.5/8.2 = 2.25.

    Thanks, Tscheezy. That clears it up for me. My original 02 rockers have no markings, but my "new" rockers do, indeed, have an X stamped on them.

    In this case, couldn't an XCE owner could retain their 1.75" stroke shock, use the Romic/Pauls/XR rockers, and get 4.65" of travel?? Ignoring the negative consequences (higher BB, possible tire bottoming against seattube) this would seem attractive to those who invested in an XCE. Matched with a 5" fork it might be a decent compromise versus the cost of upgrading to a 5-Spot ...

  14. #14
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by InertiaMan
    In this case, couldn't an XCE owner could retain their 1.75" stroke shock, use the Romic/Pauls/XR rockers, and get 4.65" of travel?? Ignoring the negative consequences (higher BB, possible tire bottoming against seattube)....
    The XR rockers do not raise the bb relative to the stock X rockers when used with a 6.5" i2i shock. That is the problem. The suspension's "starting point" remains the same with the XR rockers (because the rockers aren't just longer, but also angled up more), but the suspension sinks 0.67" deeper into its travel with the 1.75" stroke Vanilla RC which brings the rear tire very close to the rocker pivot. A bigger tire will cause contact. Increasing travel while not raising the back of the bike will also lead to a lower sag point in the rear, effectively dropping the back and choppering the bike when paired with a taller fork. You would not really end up with a 5-Spot.

    tscheezy
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    You would not really end up with a 5-Spot.

    tscheezy
    Funny, with a Talas and my Push'd Fox, I call my XCE my 4-Spot.

  16. #16
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    FYI to all those who, like me, are eagerly awaiting the Paul's 4" Burner rockers: I called them today and was told: "maybe by the end of the year." I don't know if I spoke to an uninformed employee or what (I sure hope so). Has anyone else heard this/anything recently re the rockers? At this point, I'm tempted to just pass on the Burner and toss in the extra cash for a spot...

    PS On the spot note, are there any medium or large 5-spot owners in the philly area who wouldn't mind letting me have a quick test ride for sizing purposes (I'm 5' 10.5" but with longish arms and a 33" inseam...debating between the two sizes)?
    Last edited by lushmd; 08-24-2004 at 04:48 PM.
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  17. #17
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    I'm just about the exact same size and have spent time on both a medium and a large. For what it's worth, I think the large is the way to go. You'll be running ten inches or more of seat post on the medium. The large with a 90mm stem feels great. Drop me a line if you want more detailed info.

    Quote Originally Posted by lushmd
    FYI to all those who, like me, are eagerly awaiting the Paul's 4" Burner rockers: I called them today and was told: "maybe by the end of the year." I don't know if I spoke to an uninformed employee or what (I sure hope so). Has anyone else heard this/anything recently re the rockers? At this point, I'm tempted to just pass on the Burner and toss in the extra cash for a spot...

    PS On the spot note, are there any medium or large 5-spot owners in the philly area who wouldn't mind letting me have a quick test ride for sizing purposes (I'm 5" 10.5" but with longish arms and a 33" inseam...debating between the two sizes)?

  18. #18
    FM
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    (thread jack, sorry!)

    Hey tscheezy, while you're rolling.....
    Could you provide a similar description of what happens when you put 5" rockers on an 2002 RFX? Specifically, does it drop the BB an inch, resulting in 5-spot like geometry? (presuming a 5" fork of course) Or does it just reduce travel and shock ratio?

    I'd appreciate any insight you might have on that- sorry for threadjacking.

  19. #19
    Roy
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    Sooo....

    What I want to know is - was Steve3 actually in this thread? I see him quoted but don't see him. How'd get through the staunch mtbr defenses......

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