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  1. #1
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    Interesting reading from the Intense board about headset interference

    NO...... how could this happen to me?!

    Very interesting. An Intense owner installed a Cane Creek headset on his new frame and ended up splitting the headtube. Boutique Bikes researched into the outside diameter of the headset and found them to be larger than the .1mm difference they're supposed so have with the inside of the headtube.

    Something to look out for and some good reading.

  2. #2
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    There's some good info over at parktool.com about headset installation as well. Certain tolerances between headset OD and headtube ID are needed (headset OD should be .1mm to .25mm larger than headtube ID), calipers are necessary to measure to the degree that Park recommends. I purchased a digital caliper to take accurate readings before I installed my first headset, but I wonder how many people actually do this. And even more worrisome how many shops.

    FWIW the CK headset and Specialized frame it was installed in were within tolerance without any reaming.

    Edit: Another good tip, put the headset in the freezer for couple hours before installation, and just before install warm up the headtube with a hairdryer.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN
    Edit: Another good tip, put the headset in the freezer for couple hours before installation, and just before install warm up the headtube with a hairdryer.
    That probably won't solve the problem as the cups warm up, they will expand and the headtube will contract as it cools. If the interphase is off enough, headtube might still crack.

    Lesson: get a CK
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  4. #4
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    it sucks that Intense may learn the hard way about it. Glad to see the owner was out a frame, but sucks that it can potentially put Intense out in replacements.

    Any thoughts on why CC made essentially their own dimensions on this? Would reaming of the HT be a bandaid fix, as one would not be able to use any other headsets on that bike?
    Last edited by Jerk_Chicken; 03-18-2006 at 11:57 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    That probably won't solve the problem as the cups warm up, they will expand and the headtube will contract as it cools. If the interphase is off enough, headtube might still crack.

    Lesson: get a CK
    Did you read my whole post?

    I'm not offering my tip as a cure for a headset that is too large, just a way to make installation a whole lot easier for one that is properly sized.

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=AndyN]I purchased a digital caliper to take accurate readings before I installed my first headset, but I wonder how many people actually do this. And even more worrisome how many shops.
    QUOTE]

    I totally agree with you. When I first read the thread a week or so ago, my first thought was that the whole problem could've been avoided if the tolerances had been measured before the headset installation. I've never installed a hs myself, but when I've had it done at a bike shop they've always measured the head-tube and the headset for interference. I felt bad for the poster, and it's not like you want to blame them for messing up. But I also feel bad for Intense as it looks like they're going to be the ones to eat the cost of the front triangle. That doesn't seem quite right to me. I think that the moral of the story is that you should take careful measurements before installing a headset, even though it's really unlikely that you'll crack the head-tube.

  7. #7
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    Sounds like intense has some good CS. I wonder if they make hard tails? I will have to check on that.

  8. #8
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    No actual proof of this, BUT..........

    As a follow up to that, I've done a bit of testing, and found something interesting about the CC flush. Inside the cups, if you have never seen one, is a little "cup" of course, for the bearing to sit. What is interesting to me, is that the cup portion is quite a bit thinner than anywhere else on the headset, and when you take the cups and press them tight with your headset press (and I mean really tight), you can see flex in the cup itself. I'm not casting any dispersions on anyone who broke a headtube with one of these, but I guess its possible that you could "over tighten" the headset, and if the cup doesn't let go with a large bang, it could transfer that force elsewhere, ie, to the walls of the headset. Now, I don't know if that would be enough to crack a headtube, but perhaps installation is an issue too? I know I can feel, with the headset press, where you could, in theory, over-tourque these headsets, while they sit perfectly into the frame.

  9. #9
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    How far

    Without reading the post over at Intense, how far over size is the OD of the headset cup. How many were measured and found to be ??? oversized. Esquire? You seem to be familiar with this model hs. Because all Turner owners are snobs we use King, that is untill Hadley makes his headset!

    For a QC tool we actually use a King headset cup. We use a set of Campy thread gauges for the BB and a Thomson post for the seat tubes. Their stuff is known for being right on.

    I think that if some of you want to buy calipers to measure parts with that is great, and the Mitutoyo digital with in/mm can be bought all the time at about $130. I have had mine for 13 years and 3 kids and numerous co-workers and it is still tight and right.But you really should not have to, if the headset maker does their job, and the mostly do and we do ours no problem. That is why you are buying the good stuff right?

    DT

  10. #10
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    Cut and pasted from that thread:

    Cane Creek: We machine our 1.5" bearing cups to an outer diameter of 49.70 (+0.03/-0.00) where they interface the headtube.

    Headtube one.point.five standard: 49.57 (+0.04/-0.00)
    From Esquire:
    I spoke with 2 different people at Cane Creek, and at 49.7 +.03, or 49.73 max size of the headset, with a 20mm insert depth, I think this is a Cane Creek issue. This may be a rare occurance, but my advice would be to double check the Cane Creek headset and it doesn't hurt, to check the headtube of the frame you are installing into. TC3, if you can get your hands on a calibrated and easy to read caliper, check the OD of the headset, and even if its closer to 49.73, I'd say return it to Cane Creek.

    With the one point five standard (http://www.onepointfivestandard.com/...ish-Metric.pdf) being 49.57 +.04, the minimum size is 49.57 of course, and if you get a headset that has the cane creek's maximum of 49.73, then you are looking at a .16mm difference, and the standard is only supposed to hold a max difference of .1 Cane Creek seems to be the only one with such a high maximum, but oddly enough, every cane creek flush reducer headset I've installed has gone in slick, and smooth. I thought at first it had to be insertion depth, but at 20, its unlikely that the Cane Creek was off that much, given the fact that many are 21 and 22 insertion depths. Is it possible that it wasn't reamed correctly? I guess so, but highly unlikely given the comparable prices of the items involved. A $1900 frame is more than likely more carefully taken care of than a $90 headset. Malcolm at Cane Creek is out this week, but I'd like to talk to him about this when he comes back. I spoke to someone else about it, and all they really could say was from their tech drawings. Regardless, I'm pretty sure Intense will help out with the frame.

    Even if the headset comes back fine, and the headtube was in spec, there are a whole host of causes, ranging from unseen damage prior to powdercoating, to install problems, who knows. I just want to make sure that going from here forward, that the headsets we install are within spec, and aren't going to do this, because even if Intense does replace them, I don't want someone out of a frame for a time period. I know how happy TC3 was to get his frame, and its part of biking that these things happen, but I still want to avoid them in the future as anyone who does this type of work would agree.
    From Intense:
    Some observations on the One Point Five interface standard:

    1. The One Point Five standard defines the diameter and tolerance for the bore in the head tube €“ the standard specifically does not cover the diameter of the headset cups €“ to quote from the standard drawing, €HS CUP OD NOT SPECIFIED€. The diameter specified for the head tube is 1.9516€ €“ 1.9532€ (49.57mm €“ 49.61mm).

    2. As manufacturers are free to define their own requirements for the cup OD, both the requirements and the actual parts tend to vary. Cane Creek specifies an OD of 1.9567€ €“ 1.9579€ (49.70mm €“ 49.73mm). We have had experience with two Cane Creek Double Xc Flush headsets causing the head tube to crack on the 6.6. These cups measured 1.9579€ to 1.9585€ (up to .0006€ over Cane Creek€™s high limit tolerance). It should also be noted that the Cane Creek is a €œdeep€ headset (20mm vs. 10mm insertion depth).

    3. Here at Intense, we tend to use the FSA Orbit Z 1.5R in this application. Although the FSA drawing allows the OD of the cups to be 1.9547€ to 1.9587€ (49.65mm €“ 49.75mm), the units we have measured run 1.9545€ €“ 1.9565€. The insertion depth of these cups is 10mm. We have had no problems in using this head set.

    4. Standard engineering practice for a locational press fit for this diameter part is to have .0004€ to .0020€ interference. While the actual size of the FSA sets as compared to the 1.5 Standard head tube diameter yields an interference of .0013€ - .0049€, the larger Cane Creek sets come in at .0047€ - .0069€. We are very concerned that the additional interference is causing undue stress in the head tube material.

    5. Due to the above concerns, Intense Cycles strongly recommends against using any headset with an OD above 1.9565€. This specifically refers to the Cane Creek Double X series, as well as any other head set creating an interference of .0050 or larger.

    Prepared by Philip Strong, Intense Cycles Engineering Department

  11. #11
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Without reading the post over at Intense, how far over size is the OD of the headset cup. How many were measured and found to be ??? oversized. Esquire? You seem to be familiar with this model hs. Because all Turner owners are snobs we use King, that is untill Hadley makes his headset!

    For a QC tool we actually use a King headset cup. We use a set of Campy thread gauges for the BB and a Thomson post for the seat tubes. Their stuff is known for being right on.

    I think that if some of you want to buy calipers to measure parts with that is great, and the Mitutoyo digital with in/mm can be bought all the time at about $130. I have had mine for 13 years and 3 kids and numerous co-workers and it is still tight and right.But you really should not have to, if the headset maker does their job, and the mostly do and we do ours no problem. That is why you are buying the good stuff right?

    DT
    We didn't install the one that cracked a headtube, but I think the original issue was of variance of the headset compared to the 1.5 standard. The 1.5 standard is 49.57 +.03, if memory serves, and the CC Double XC flush headset is 49.7 +.03. Not an issue if the headtube is 49.6 and the headset is 49.7 or VERY close. When the headtube is 49.57 and the headset is at or over its max of 49.73, then we are talking .16 off, which is .06 over what the 1.5 standard dictates as being acceptable. I didn't measure the one that busted the headtube, and it got sent back. I measure all of ours now, and double check it with the headtube. I've only had direct experience with that 1 being oversized, and I can't remember what Christos said it was over by.

    If King would make the 1.5 reducer headset, well.... lets just say that would be nice...

    Don't get me wrong, the CC headset works very nice, and we've had ZERO issues with the ones we have installed, they go in slick, are smooth, and are nice and flush, very similar to the E-13 reducer cups, without having to deal with the internal bearings that I went through 3 sets of last summer. I'm convinced this is an isolated incident, or perhaps like I said above, an installation issue. But again, I wasn't there, so I don't "know". We were interested since we sold the frame, and wanted to help TC3 out as best we could. Before we really could do anything at all, Intense had him taken care of. I do know that even after hundreds of headset installs, I damned near over tourqued this one. Good thing it was on a Knolly....

  12. #12
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    New question here.

    Just got a new '06 DHR and wondering if anyone has tried a FSA cup reducer w/ a Chris King 1 1/8 headset?

  13. #13
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    Cup Reducer???

    Quote Originally Posted by intensemtb
    Just got a new '06 DHR and wondering if anyone has tried a FSA cup reducer w/ a Chris King 1 1/8 headset?
    Do you mean an FSA "reducing" headset, either one that has its own set of bearings, or basically converts the headtube to an integrated headset? The only reducing cups that I know of, that you can use a 1 1/8" headset inside, is the Problem Solvers ones. I have set of those, they work, with King, but kind of are a high stack height. I don't know of an FSA cup reducer that is compatible with a regular 1 1/8"

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by esquire
    Do you mean an FSA "reducing" headset, either one that has its own set of bearings, or basically converts the headtube to an integrated headset? The only reducing cups that I know of, that you can use a 1 1/8" headset inside, is the Problem Solvers ones. I have set of those, they work, with King, but kind of are a high stack height. I don't know of an FSA cup reducer that is compatible with a regular 1 1/8"
    It the FSA reducer that converts your 1.5 headtube to 1 1/8, no bearings. Picked one up at Jenson today and wanted to know if anyone has tried this one.

  15. #15
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    So I've always adheared to the .004 in interface that Chris King specifies. This is for 1-1/8th headsets. Should the interface for 1.5 headtube be any different?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Because all Turner owners are snobs we use King, DT
    You know someone is going to take that and quote it like you meant it....

    Dave Turner said "all Turner owners are snobs" - man he disses his own customers and still sells more bikes than he can produce....

    Fun stuff.


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