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  1. #1
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    I'm shocked, was horst link finally just a hype or what?

    WOW, I've been out for 3 weeks on vacation and the first news I read on MTBR is that Turner is changing it's suspension design for a non horst rear!!! What's this, is it that finally we've been kidding ourselves with all those years with horst link bikes and bottom line they don't really make a difference? Kona, Jamis, Ventana and a few others must be laughing right now! That may also be why Giant, SantaCruz, Intense and Iron Horse have moved to a new hype VPP design, will we learn in a few years that this was also no better than a regular single pivot bike? Is it still going to be worth is to pay extra money for a Titus or Ellsworth just to get that "hyped" rear suspension?

    Man, I've never owned a full that was not a horst link so I can't really write my opinion but I am sure a bit dissapointed right now.

    Please all of you suspension maniacs (Tscheezy, DGC, ...), give me some reassurance words, I'm sure you've had rides on many bikes at Interbike and you probably have it all figured out by now...

    Cheers.

  2. #2
    Lay off the Levers
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    welcome to the party M!, I know you're a bit late, just push the passed-out bodies off the couch, brush the empties off the coffee table, and open up one of those warm beers sitting on the counter.

    Three weeks around here can make a world of difference eh?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  3. #3
    The Ancient One
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    Horst links and faux bars only work the same in the states.. In the rest of the world the Horst clearly works better. That's why Devinci equip their bikes with a seat stay pivot only in the U.S. and a chain stay pivot every where else.

  4. #4
    Rolling
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    Troll Post?

    Gotta be since if you read all the threads, you just stirred the pot some more of the same ole stuff. Of course I am compelled to reply since someone does have a gun to my head and makes me read and post!

    I'm going to sell all my bikes and get a cheap monopivot Weyless now!

    Btw the future is rubber bikes with the suspension integrated into the frame!

  5. #5
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Troll Post?

    Gotta be since if you read all the threads, you just stirred the pot some more of the same ole stuff. Of course I am compelled to reply since someone does have a gun to my head and makes me read and post!

    I'm going to sell all my bikes and get a cheap monopivot Weyless now!

    Btw the future is rubber bikes with the suspension integrated into the frame!
    FLUBBER BIKE! Sweet!

    BTW, the wife is forcing me to post too, and we are sick of this sht.

  6. #6
    Daniel the Dog
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    I've been depressed for a week...

    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    WOW, I've been out for 3 weeks on vacation and the first news I read on MTBR is that Turner is changing it's suspension design for a non horst rear!!! What's this, is it that finally we've been kidding ourselves with all those years with horst link bikes and bottom line they don't really make a difference? Kona, Jamis, Ventana and a few others must be laughing right now! That may also be why Giant, SantaCruz, Intense and Iron Horse have moved to a new hype VPP design, will we learn in a few years that this was also no better than a regular single pivot bike? Is it still going to be worth is to pay extra money for a Titus or Ellsworth just to get that "hyped" rear suspension?

    Man, I've never owned a full that was not a horst link so I can't really write my opinion but I am sure a bit dissapointed right now.

    Please all of you suspension maniacs (Tscheezy, DGC, ...), give me some reassurance words, I'm sure you've had rides on many bikes at Interbike and you probably have it all figured out by now...

    Cheers.
    I think Casey and the guys finally got into drugs. I'm guessing either crack or ice. Geeze!

    Jaybo

  7. #7
    what a joke
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Horst links and faux bars only work the same in the states.. In the rest of the world the Horst clearly works better. That's why Devinci equip their bikes with a seat stay pivot only in the U.S. and a chain stay pivot every where else.
    Interesting.........
    blah blah blah

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I think Casey and the guys finally got into drugs. I'm guessing either crack or ice. Geeze!

    Jaybo


    Its even worse, Casey is selling road bikes in Texas!

  9. #9
    Daniel the Dog
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    He should have built a higher wall in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by drumstix
    Its even worse, Casey is selling road bikes in Texas!
    After the towering homer that sunk the Astros. Poor ba*tards!

    Jaybo


    PS sorry, I know most cycling geeks hate sports. Who are the Astro's? Hmm.

  10. #10
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    oh gawd!

    can we move on now? please? would someone be so kind as to point the affore mentioned gun to my head and fire if this doesnt end soon? is it possible to write a entire post in nuthin but questions?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  11. #11
    DGC
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    I finally will post

    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    WOW, I've been out for 3 weeks on vacation and the first news I read on MTBR is that Turner is changing it's suspension design for a non horst rear!!! What's this, is it that finally we've been kidding ourselves with all those years with horst link bikes and bottom line they don't really make a difference? Kona, Jamis, Ventana and a few others must be laughing right now! That may also be why Giant, SantaCruz, Intense and Iron Horse have moved to a new hype VPP design, will we learn in a few years that this was also no better than a regular single pivot bike? Is it still going to be worth is to pay extra money for a Titus or Ellsworth just to get that "hyped" rear suspension?

    Man, I've never owned a full that was not a horst link so I can't really write my opinion but I am sure a bit dissapointed right now.

    Please all of you suspension maniacs (Tscheezy, DGC, ...), give me some reassurance words, I'm sure you've had rides on many bikes at Interbike and you probably have it all figured out by now...

    Cheers.
    Did I hear my name being called for Turner TNT impressions?
    First off, relax, completely.
    I have elected to completely stay away from the posts on this, I have said absolutely nothing........til now. It got out of hand. Seems it finally has settled down some.
    Here is my take.
    We have been treating the "Horst Link" like it is the holy grail of suspension pivots and everything else sucks. In a way, like the performance image of a Ferrari against a Plymouth Neon as an example if that makes sense. However, the position of the HL has changed from years past to its current location. The current location does much less than some around here think. Yes a computer image or a linkage program will show some slight differences as even shown on Turner's own web page inside TNT link, but........................the differences are so minimal. How minimal?.......read on.
    Now take the computer out of the picture and what do you have? The human factor = the rider. Enough people have already proven at Interbike demo day how important the rider is. If there are people here saying they cannot feel the difference then it wont matter what the computer program says. ....Thats how small the difference is. Some may be set in their ways and want to be able to say otherwise just for the sake of arguing a mute point. Just go back 2 years when the 5 Spot was just out, so many non believers questioned that the 5 Spot was really as good as it was being touted and worth its asking price, and today many of those people now swear by the Turner they ride. And many more after them feel the same too. I still get e-mails from some who bought Spots 2 years ago and are still smiling about the bike itself after every ride.
    I am not trying to say its the best bike ever, I am just trying to put some things into perspective. Nothing much has changed.

    Now those who say things like they have ridden many different seat stay pivot bikes and claim the new Turner TNT bikes will exhibit the same drawbacks are not testing apples to apples, they are just talking out their left cheek......A bike that looks almost identical to another of its kind is ......... only that, look -a- like.

    For an accurate test of the Turner 5 Spot TNT (or any other Turner TNT) the non Turner against it would have to be almost to the enth millimeter the exact same dimensions and geometry throughout vs. the 5 Spot.
    I will say, a slight tweek here, 1 degree different angle there, a few millimeters down there, bigger diameter this, all make differences. Discount 100% those ideas from believers of all CS bikes perform same. No 2 different bikes perform the same.
    As for your question of is it going to still be worth it down the road a few years to pay the extra $$$ for a Titus or Ellsworth? More attention needs to be put towards what differences the current HL is actually making, and see if Specialized makes changes down the road to it then that answer will come.
    I dont like the idea of paying more $$$ for a boutique bike with what I call the same Specialized suspension drawbacks. As for Ellsworth? TE has proven plenty on his own forum what kind of person he really is. There is a reason I call it Ellsworthless.

    Sorry for the old picture quality, It is a 1995 picture.....!!!!!!.....By the way, this bike is still being ridden in Tahoe 10 years later.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by DGC; 10-18-2005 at 02:46 AM. Reason: pix
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  12. #12
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    First I want to say I'm sorry to all Turner folks for my post. I pulled the trigger too fast. I came back from vacation, checked out some Interbike photos and saw the pivot location on the 06 Turner. So I browsed very quickly the subjects, but did not see a specific discussion so I posted my stupid post immediately. I did expect it would create some level of useless posting considering the subject but honestly my intention was not to raise any kind of forum war.

    Thanks DGC for providing some info. I'll take some time to read a few other threads instead of keeping this one alive by adding my comments to an already useless thread.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Did I hear my name being called for Turner TNT impressions?
    First off, relax, completely.
    I have elected to completely stay away from the posts on this, I have said absolutely nothing........til now. It got out of hand. Seems it finally has settled down some.
    Here is my take.
    We have been treating the "Horst Link" like it is the holy grail of suspension pivots and everything else sucks. In a way, like the performance image of a Ferrari against a Plymouth Neon as an example if that makes sense. However, the position of the HL has changed from years past to its current location. The current location does much less than some around here think. Yes a computer image or a linkage program will show some slight differences as even shown on Turner's own web page inside TNT link, but........................the differences are so minimal. How minimal?.......read on.
    Now take the computer out of the picture and what do you have? The human factor = the rider. Enough people have already proven at Interbike demo day how important the rider is. If there are people here saying they cannot feel the difference then it wont matter what the computer program says. ....Thats how small the difference is. Some may be set in their ways and want to be able to say otherwise just for the sake of arguing a mute point. Just go back 2 years when the 5 Spot was just out, so many non believers questioned that the 5 Spot was really as good as it was being touted and worth its asking price, and today many of those people now swear by the Turner they ride. And many more after them feel the same too. I still get e-mails from some who bought Spots 2 years ago and are still smiling about the bike itself after every ride.
    I am not trying to say its the best bike ever, I am just trying to put some things into perspective. Nothing much has changed.

    Now those who say things like they have ridden many different seat stay pivot bikes and claim the new Turner TNT bikes will exhibit the same drawbacks are not testing apples to apples, they are just talking out their left cheek......A bike that looks almost identical to another of its kind is ......... only that, look -a- like.

    For an accurate test of the Turner 5 Spot TNT (or any other Turner TNT) the non Turner against it would have to be almost to the enth millimeter the exact same dimensions and geometry throughout vs. the 5 Spot.
    I will say, a slight tweek here, 1 degree different angle there, a few millimeters down there, bigger diameter this, all make differences. Discount 100% those ideas from believers of all CS bikes perform same. No 2 different bikes perform the same.
    As for your question of is it going to still be worth it down the road a few years to pay the extra $$$ for a Titus or Ellsworth? More attention needs to be put towards what differences the current HL is actually making, and see if Specialized makes changes down the road to it then that answer will come.
    I dont like the idea of paying more $$$ for a boutique bike with what I call the same Specialized suspension drawbacks. As for Ellsworth? TE has proven plenty on his own forum what kind of person he really is. There is a reason I call it Ellsworthless.

    Sorry for the old picture quality, It is a 1995 picture.....!!!!!!.....By the way, this bike is still being ridden in Tahoe 10 years later.

  13. #13
    Roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Horst links and faux bars only work the same in the states.. In the rest of the world the Horst clearly works better. That's why Devinci equip their bikes with a seat stay pivot only in the U.S. and a chain stay pivot every where else.
    Maybe they just sell better.

  14. #14
    The Ancient One
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    Proof of true 4-bar superiority?

    It should be pointed out that when Devinci first released the Banzai, now called the Remix, they said it was the result of their research with an "instrumented bike". This was a bike with all kinds of sensors at various points on the frame and a back pack carried computer.

    They were looking for info on which points were most under stress and would need reinforcement and which points could be made lighter. They were also looking for the ideal pivot placements to produce efficiency.

    What they came up with looks somewhere between an Ellsworth and a Turner. The drop-out pivot is very close to and right ahead of the axle, like an Ellsworth. The rocker arm is shorter and more angled than an Ellsworth--more like a Turner.

    The bike fell within the claims of the ICT patent, which is international, and Devinci licensed ICT from Ellsworth and put on a sticker.

    Presumably, the reason they do not sell the true 4-bar version in the U.S. is that Specialized won't let them. They would have to license from both just as Dave Turner did.

  15. #15
    Bite Me.
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    Oh, enough on this topic already!
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  16. #16
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    It ... did.
    Cross posting crap. Go away.

  17. #17
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    "For an accurate test of the Turner 5 Spot TNT (or any other Turner TNT) the non Turner against it would have to be almost to the enth millimeter the exact same dimensions and geometry throughout vs. the 5 Spot."

    We could now have just such a test by taking a new 05 5-Spot and when availabel a new 06 5-Spot and outfit them with identical components and test them side by side as the rest of the bikes appear to be the same except for the near rear wheel pivot. Then have a number of different riders of different abilities test ride them on varying terrain. You could probably shroud the axle areas on both bikes to make it a true blind test.

    I'm sure Turner has allready done this and according to their sales info you can't tell the difference. I believe that there will be differences in some situations and that in certain situations the Horst link will perform better, most likely traction during pedalling and braking under loose and bumpy condtions. There will probably also be condtions where the single pivot performs better, most likely smooth dry hardpack. Anybody got a spare 10 grand for a couple of real nice bikes?

  18. #18
    Lay off the Levers
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    Or someone could just acquire a TNT rear triangle and bolt it onto an existing HL Spot.
    But then you'd have to trust that person's opinion, and ability to tell the difference, and accecpt their riding style and terrain might play a factor.

    If the two are really close in performance, I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get a fix on the different ride reviews.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  19. #19
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    My inclination is that when the TNT bikes hit the street, the bubble will be burst and people will get to see in real life that they can't tell the difference and Turners are the sum of many parts, only one of which was the nostalgic use of the HL.

    People will see, just like at IB that he designs great riding bikes. HL or not.

  20. #20
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    OK, I've had enough, stop posting in this lame thread of mine or I'm moving to the Ells forum

    Noooo, I could not do that, I'm already quite a bad guy not even a Turner owner and posting here all the time to get answers to my "sometimes" stupid questions.

    Anyway, I've done my homework now and my thread is definitely useless, there are plenty of other interesting (and not so interesting) threads which cover the subject very thoroughly so please stop posting in this one and if there is a moderator in the house, I would be happy if my thread would just be removed completely.

    Thanks guys, I hope most of you will not be angry with me, next time I go on vacation I'll do my homework before posting a stupid one like this.

    Cheers.

  21. #21
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    $15

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    Maybe they just sell better.
    it is just that manifacturers get tired (perhaphs rightly so) of giving $15 to Specialized for each frame they produce. Blame the idiotic laws of the USA that allow a coorporation to buy rights on "inventions" they did not develop. (To look at another idiotic example: the long tentacles of Specialized seems to be able to reach to Stratos now, pushing the quite wonderful ID inertia valve out of production).

    It is also less expensive to build a faux-bar and Turner will be getting a little nice extra $/frame. This of course assuming somebody buys a Turner next year it will be kind of a foolish thing to do with Ventana (and Sycip ... and Kona!) around ...

    and without mentioning the systems that work better from a start. IBIS DW (which might be too risky for the homer conservative types) the VPP (that ought to be better than a faux-bar, don't they?), all the nice Mestro-DW-VPP linkage floating around and of course the Horst/ITC variants Titus, Nicolai, Ellsworth, Scott ...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Davide; 10-18-2005 at 08:12 PM.

  22. #22
    DGC
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    bingo.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Or someone could just acquire a TNT rear triangle and bolt it onto an existing HL Spot.
    But then you'd have to trust that person's opinion, and ability to tell the difference, and accecpt their riding style and terrain might play a factor.

    If the two are really close in performance, I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get a fix on the different ride reviews.
    Hey Zilla,
    I will be doing such a test just like that soon enough. DT is sending me a TNT rear end to bolt onto my 2005 Spot. It will get ridden for weeks on the same trails i have been riding for the past 12 years.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  23. #23
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    Upset

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Hey Zilla,
    I will be doing such a test just like that soon enough. DT is sending me a TNT rear end to bolt onto my 2005 Spot. It will get ridden for weeks on the same trails i have been riding for the past 12 years.
    I should be getting my '06 demo bike soon in 10 days or so. I know more than 3 HL spot owners that we could swap bikes during a ride to compare them. Drawback is that all other components will be different. Your test will be a better benchmark and mine will have more riders' input. Once in for all HL vs TNT will be put to rest.

  24. #24
    Daniel the Dog
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    It doesn't make sense

    A lot of guys, myself included, are done buying Turner's because of the change. Why do it? It certainly isn't a selling point for the company. Is it a legal issue? A profit issue? I would rather pay another $100 and get a HL. I'm really not getting it. By the way, I owned a seatstay pivot bike, it did not brake nearly as well as my Turner. I hope the new seatstay bike (errr, TNT) is as good as the HL. However, I would not hold my breath.

    Jaybo

  25. #25
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    Guys like you aren't in the market for a new bike anyway.

  26. #26
    DGC
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    well

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    A lot of guys, myself included, are done buying Turner's because of the change. Why do it? It certainly isn't a selling point for the company. Is it a legal issue? A profit issue? I would rather pay another $100 and get a HL. I'm really not getting it. By the way, I owned a seatstay pivot bike, it did not brake nearly as well as my Turner. I hope the new seatstay bike (errr, TNT) is as good as the HL. However, I would not hold my breath.

    Jaybo
    Consider what JC said.....if your not in the market, why bother getting worked up over it before they are even out. Now onto your questions:

    I will just say this: Dont hold it against DT personally or Turner Bicycles as a whole. Dont get too worked up about it either, the explanation I would guess will come in time then everyone will know the answer to your question why? In the meantime myself and a few others will be testing the TNT against HL rear ends soon enough. You need to read my response above about the seat stay bikes vs. HL's closer.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  27. #27
    Daniel the Dog
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    Conviction should mean something

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Consider what JC said.....if your not in the market, why bother getting worked up over it before they are even out. Now onto your questions:

    I will just say this: Dont hold it against DT personally or Turner Bicycles as a whole. Dont get too worked up about it either, the explanation I would guess will come in time then everyone will know the answer to your question why? In the meantime myself and a few others will be testing the TNT against HL rear ends soon enough. You need to read my response above about the seat stay bikes vs. HL's closer.
    Does DT actually believe the informaton he has been telling us for years or is it just marketing dribble? Did he believe the HL makes a bike brake, pedal, etc better? There has to be a legal reason. The Turner website certainly doesn't state the TNT is better. Just maybe not worse. There has to be a legal reason for all this. I have read your post.

    I may not be in the market but mountain biking is rough sport. I could destroy a frame. Heck! I'm a pretty average mechanic. I would destroy a bike changing the pivots

    Jaybo

  28. #28
    Lay off the Levers
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    JB IMO it's a little premature to throw in the towel.

    If as you suggest the TNT is "Just maybe not worse" then wouldn't it be pretty much the same? If that's true, then it's still, by your own assertion the best trail bike you've had. If that's true, then wouldn't switching to another brand, simply b/c it's a HL, be accecpting a compromise in the total bike performance / feel ?

    I have no idea how much a difference the TNT is going to make but I see it as quite likely to be much less a difference than going to a completely different bike.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 10-19-2005 at 09:39 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  29. #29
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Blame the idiotic laws of the USA that allow a corporation to buy rights on "inventions" they did not develop.
    FYI: Similar patent laws exist worldwide. Patents are properties just like a car or house. You can sell or lease it if you want to.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  30. #30
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    JB IMO it's a little premature to throw in the towel.

    If as you suggest the TNT is "Just maybe not worse" then wouldn't it be pretty much the same? If that's true, then it's still, by your own assertion the best trail bike you've had. If that's true, then wouldn't switching to another brand, simply b/c it's a HL, be accecpting a compromise in the total bike performance / feel ?

    I have no idea how much a difference the TNT is going to make but I see it as quite likely to be much less a difference than going to a completely different bike.
    How can TNT possibly be the same as HL if Dave Turner has been swearing by the HL since the inception of Turner bikes? The fact is, he's either been BSing about HL for the last 10 years, or he's BSing now about TNT. The new bike might ride great, but this blind loyalty to ride whatever DT produces is freaking hilarious.(not referring to you personally). There are too many cool bikes and designs out there.
    Global Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  31. #31
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    I'm sure the new TNT and the HL bikes both ride well, I don't know which rides better.

    All I know is the "Quality without Compromise" marketing phrase is now not applicable.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

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    gettin freaked on horst

    [QUOTE=this blind loyalty to ride whatever DT produces is freaking hilarious.[/QUOTE]

    blind loyalty to HL is also freaking hilarious................every freakin design out there has some kind of compromise because, like all of us, nothing is perfect...........now i am going to go cry about it.

  33. #33
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    Well since you guys wont stop posting in my thread, I think I will permit myself to lay down my opinion.

    Since I don't own a Turner maybe my opinion is kind of more objective than many others here. However, I don't own a Turner for financial reasons only because I love the 5-spot and 6-pack, if I had the money at the time, I would have one instead of my cheaper but very similar Banzai.

    What irritates me most in this whole Turner saga is not the fact that a Turner bike will now be less of a performer without the HL and not because DT would have lied to everybody for years.

    It's a lot of people in the bike industry that frustrates me. The magazines, the HL bike manufacturers (Spec, Ells, Turner, Titus, Devinci, etc...) and also some of the MTBR members, all those people that have been bragging about HL, that have been demolishing other suspension design as inferior and so forth. I personally relied on the "professional' opinion of those people to buy a HL bike instead of, for example, a Giant VT, a Kona Dawg or a SantaCruz Heckler because, heck, a HL bike was supposed to be so much better. As a consumer, I don't have the opportunity to try out all those bikes at Interbike, I don't work for a bike shop and I ride most of the time alone or with my GF so I don't have a wide circle of friends with all sorts of different bikes to try out. So I rely on the industry, the magazines and my MTBR buddies to forge my opinion on what's best to buy.

    So suddenly, after years of hype, just because Mr. Turner switches over to faux 4-bar, well horst link may still be a bit better, but it's so insignificant that you are much better off still buying a Turner for all the other advantages a Turner offers.

    Well yes, I still agree with that statement! A Turner really offers A LOT of advantages over other bikes, BUT, for me, it's finding the "best" rear suspension design that makes me happy and if suddenly HL is nothing but a tiny advantage, just an insignificant difference versus a regular faux 4-bar then I feel that I've been a bit deceived by all those years of BS and I don't hold JUST Mr.Turner responsible for it, many others have and are still lying about it (Titus, Ells, ...).

    So, bottom line, I think this whole issue by Turner brings up so much crap on the forum because a lot of "non technical" regular joe rider/consumer like me feel they have been somewhat deceived by an industry they so much love.

    Ho well, it will pass, probably in a few months we wont be talking about it anymore, Turner non HL bikes will have proved to be as nice as their predecessor HL and some will still buy them, others will buy something else and life will be good because trails don't mind if you ride a HL, a Turner or a hardtail, they are there to bring you fun and sometimes kick you off your saddle, specially if you ride a non HL bike!

    Hope I didn't bore you too much.

    Cheers

  34. #34
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    You made some good points. Advent of a design change:

    1. Another businessman, happens to be better at it than DT, patents DT's design. DT arrived at it from trial and error over the years, while the other guy took Turners apart over the years and reverse engineered them to find the basis for their riding charateristics. Makes bikes along this reasoning, DT does not cry foul, nor tries to patent it. He just wants to concentrate on the bikes and the cs.
    2. Because he's a dirtbag, and has a history of screwing over other industry partners, the other guy decides to crush his most direct competitor.
    3. Asks for a high license fee. DT figures he'll just license it until he can make his next move, talk to attoneys, etc.
    4. Prior art is there, but the fight would ruin both companies financially. Perhaps DT first. Effect would be that we would not have the great CS during the fight, as well as after the companies fold.
    5. The other guy claims himself as the inventor, furthermore claiming DT was inspired by him to use the design.
    6. DT speaks to lawyers and they point out that removal of the HL will put the whole design outside of the patent's parameters. A tough pill to swallow, since DT has been using the HL simply because he can, as well as being there from the beginning. It was also a good marketing tool.
    7. He decides to just try the non-horst 4 bar out, found that it's less fool-proof to design it to feel like a HL bike, but worked very hard on his design. Takes more engineering to make the non-horst equal, but the Turner HL was mostly a device of nostalgia, due to its positioning.
    8. Tries out said bike. Bike performs like a Turner.

  35. #35
    ajr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    You made some good points. Advent of a design change:

    1. Another businessman, happens to be better at it than DT, patents DT's design. DT arrived at it from trial and error over the years, while the other guy took Turners apart over the years and reverse engineered them to find the basis for their riding charateristics. Makes bikes along this reasoning, DT does not cry foul, nor tries to patent it. He just wants to concentrate on the bikes and the cs.
    2. Because he's a dirtbag, and has a history of screwing over other industry partners, the other guy decides to crush his most direct competitor.
    3. Asks for a high license fee. DT figures he'll just license it until he can make his next move, talk to attoneys, etc.
    4. Prior art is there, but the fight would ruin both companies financially. Perhaps DT first. Effect would be that we would not have the great CS during the fight, as well as after the companies fold.
    5. The other guy claims himself as the inventor, furthermore claiming DT was inspired by him to use the design.
    6. DT speaks to lawyers and they point out that removal of the HL will put the whole design outside of the patent's parameters. A tough pill to swallow, since DT has been using the HL simply because he can, as well as being there from the beginning. It was also a good marketing tool.
    7. He decides to just try the non-horst 4 bar out, found that it's less fool-proof to design it to feel like a HL bike, but worked very hard on his design. Takes more engineering to make the non-horst equal, but the Turner HL was mostly a device of nostalgia, due to its positioning.
    8. Tries out said bike. Bike performs like a Turner.
    I am lucky enough to have two customers who are suspension experts. One is a suspension consultant to Ford WRC and the other Williams F1. They both ride faux bar frames for there own reasons even though they could have bought Turner. They have been amused by the amount of misinformed comments on the TNT design. The rear link plays no part in the action of the suspension as a lot of people on this forum imagine it does. The design is no better than any other non HL design that has been said to be inferior to the HL design that for so long has been a major selling point for Turner frames. I have ridden Turner frames since 95 and was blinded by the HL into thinking I was one the top design. When I swopped to a non HL frame it did not make any noticeable difference and I have never missed it. This may be due to the fact I ride another top quality frame. On paper the HL is marginally better in reality not so. I think the main reason so many Turner owners are upset by this change around is that they feel they can no longer look at other frame designs and imagine that they have something superior. We can all get blinded by BS TNT is nothing new.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajr
    The rear link plays no part in the action of the suspension as a lot of people on this forum imagine it does.
    Huh? Can you elaborate on this? So can a pivot be placed anywhere and the bike will always ride the same??? Clearly you are misinterpreting your friends' opinions.
    <><

  37. #37
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    Perhaps that statement should be corrected to say "Plays no part on a bike the way people think it does.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajr
    I am lucky enough to have two customers who are suspension experts.
    The guys who came up with the Horst link and the ICT design are also, respectively, motorcycle and automotive "suspension experts".

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    FYI: Similar patent laws exist worldwide. Patents are properties just like a car or house. You can sell or lease it if you want to.
    I know ... but it is till annoying: it is skewing the whole USA bicycle market for really no reason other than profit ...

  40. #40
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    I know ... but it is till annoying: it is skewing the whole USA bicycle market for really no reason other than profit ...
    I hear you but it's really part of doing business. Companies spend hundreds of thousands to billions of dollars to develop something; surely you want some market exclusivity to recoup your cost and make a profit. That's why it's good business practice to file patents on your idea before someone else does and messes you up. One should take advantage of the system and not ignore it since licensing patents can be a good source of revenue.
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 10-20-2005 at 01:36 PM.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Hey Zilla,
    I will be doing such a test just like that soon enough. DT is sending me a TNT rear end to bolt onto my 2005 Spot. It will get ridden for weeks on the same trails i have been riding for the past 12 years.
    It won't be a fiar test anyway... is it just me or somewhere over here DT said the pivot location on the TNT moved a bit to mimic the HL wheelpath??

    If so, the TNT swingarm will work in a different position from what's it's intended while mounted on the HL front end.
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  42. #42
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    nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    It won't be a fiar test anyway... is it just me or somewhere over here DT said the pivot location on the TNT moved a bit to mimic the HL wheelpath??

    If so, the TNT swingarm will work in a different position from what's it's intended while mounted on the HL front end.
    HL version 05 main frame and 06 TNT main frame's are identical, nothing changed there at all.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  43. #43
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    DGC, Kewl on you for getting the resources to test both rear triangles. It ought to be a interesting experiment. I suspect some others may soon be doing the same thing.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  44. #44
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    Hey DGC, is that a white Spot frame I see you riding in the last pic or are you on a 6 Pack? I can't imagine a non-36 Vanilla on a Pack.

  45. #45
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    DGC, Kewl on you for getting the resources to test both rear triangles(That's the seat stay AND chanstay, Warp ). It ought to be a interesting experiment. I suspect some others may soon be doing the same thing.
    LOL!!!

    DGC thanks for the insight. Obviously my memory was not clear.

    All this mess reinforces my theory that the execution is more important thatn the design itself.

    I don't wanna beat a dead horse but there are some who have held its position regarding this mess of SP / HL and some others that don't... and that's good. Diversity is a good thing in any field.

    Kudos to DT for the courage to renounce to HL... I don't have a doubt the TNT's will be great bikes. The DHR is a SP and is a great bike.
    Check my Site

  46. #46
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    Crash,

    Quit posting stupid questions, and get back to work so we can ride tonight!

  47. #47
    DGC
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    silver/white

    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG
    Hey DGC, is that a white Spot frame I see you riding in the last pic or are you on a 6 Pack? I can't imagine a non-36 Vanilla on a Pack.
    The lack of a real good camera sux sometimes. That is my 05 silver spot, the camera decided to show otherwise.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    The guys who came up with the Horst link and the ICT design are also, respectively, motorcycle and automotive "suspension experts".
    Doesn't seem to be many Horst Link motorbikes out there at the moment. They appear to be all single pivots. Not a chainstay pivot in sight.

    We're talking here about subtle differences in rear wheel path geometry. It's not a big deal for me because I can see the bigger picture and weigh the influence of the HL accordingly (i.e fairly trivial unless you work in advertising). You get similar discussions in the automotive world regarding kinematic roll centres, wheel paths etc, etc and at the end of the day there are other more important parameters that hardly get a mention. Usually because they don't market as effectively.

    Anyway, let's see if these Turner guys can actually tell the difference between HL and TNT. That will prove how significant the HL design is in the real world. The HL Turners were obviously great bikes, but not just because they had a HL. IMHO they will be equally good with TNT/Faux Bar or whatever you wish to call it. They might even be slightly better!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelieMan
    Huh? Can you elaborate on this? So can a pivot be placed anywhere and the bike will always ride the same??? Clearly you are misinterpreting your friends' opinions.
    I'm one of the friends he's referring to and what he means is that the HL doesn't affect how the suspension fundamentally operates. It only changes the rear wheel path marginally compared to an equivalent 'Faux Bar" or TNT in this case. It has no effect on how the suspension reacts to inputs from the ground or rider. There are people who will argue that braking is better with the HL due to reduced caliper rotation, but I don't believe them! There are also people who will argue that HL bikes have less pedal bob and more traction than any Faux Bar. Again it doesn't make sense to me and I refuse to believe it. Perhaps engineers are just harder to convince than the press

    I'll gladly eat my hat if someone proves otherwise, but so far I haven't heard a convincing argument to say that a HL bike is fundamentally superior to a Faux Bar in any measurable way. That's not to say I think Faux Bars are any better, more a statement of indifference. I'm guessing that's the conclusion DT has reached too after many years of development and evolution.

  50. #50
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Doesn't seem to be many Horst Link motorbikes out there at the moment. They appear to be all single pivots. Not a chainstay pivot in sight.

    We're talking here about subtle differences in rear wheel path geometry. It's not a big deal for me because I can see the bigger picture and weigh the influence of the HL accordingly (i.e fairly trivial unless you work in advertising). You get similar discussions in the automotive world regarding kinematic roll centres, wheel paths etc, etc and at the end of the day there are other more important parameters that hardly get a mention. Usually because they don't market as effectively.

    Anyway, let's see if these Turner guys can actually tell the difference between HL and TNT. That will prove how significant the HL design is in the real world. The HL Turners were obviously great bikes, but not just because they had a HL. IMHO they will be equally good with TNT/Faux Bar or whatever you wish to call it. They might even be slightly better!
    There are several motorcycles with drive shafts and 4-bar suspensions.

    Dave Weagle of DW link predicts that quality motorcycles in the future will have chain drives and 4-bar linkage suspensions (not to be confused with linkage driven shocks, which already exist). Presumably, he has his linkage in mind.

    If there is a significant difference between the pedaling behavior of Horst/ICT bikes and faux bars or single pivots, it's going to have to be because of something other than simply axle path differences.

    Turner guys are not the ones who should be testing to see if any difference can be detected. Better would be riders who never heard of Turner, or at least who don't care one way or the other.

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