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  1. #1
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    I'm shocked, was horst link finally just a hype or what?

    WOW, I've been out for 3 weeks on vacation and the first news I read on MTBR is that Turner is changing it's suspension design for a non horst rear!!! What's this, is it that finally we've been kidding ourselves with all those years with horst link bikes and bottom line they don't really make a difference? Kona, Jamis, Ventana and a few others must be laughing right now! That may also be why Giant, SantaCruz, Intense and Iron Horse have moved to a new hype VPP design, will we learn in a few years that this was also no better than a regular single pivot bike? Is it still going to be worth is to pay extra money for a Titus or Ellsworth just to get that "hyped" rear suspension?

    Man, I've never owned a full that was not a horst link so I can't really write my opinion but I am sure a bit dissapointed right now.

    Please all of you suspension maniacs (Tscheezy, DGC, ...), give me some reassurance words, I'm sure you've had rides on many bikes at Interbike and you probably have it all figured out by now...

    Cheers.

  2. #2
    Lay off the Levers
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    welcome to the party M!, I know you're a bit late, just push the passed-out bodies off the couch, brush the empties off the coffee table, and open up one of those warm beers sitting on the counter.

    Three weeks around here can make a world of difference eh?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  3. #3
    The Ancient One
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    Horst links and faux bars only work the same in the states.. In the rest of the world the Horst clearly works better. That's why Devinci equip their bikes with a seat stay pivot only in the U.S. and a chain stay pivot every where else.

  4. #4
    Rolling
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    Troll Post?

    Gotta be since if you read all the threads, you just stirred the pot some more of the same ole stuff. Of course I am compelled to reply since someone does have a gun to my head and makes me read and post!

    I'm going to sell all my bikes and get a cheap monopivot Weyless now!

    Btw the future is rubber bikes with the suspension integrated into the frame!

  5. #5
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Troll Post?

    Gotta be since if you read all the threads, you just stirred the pot some more of the same ole stuff. Of course I am compelled to reply since someone does have a gun to my head and makes me read and post!

    I'm going to sell all my bikes and get a cheap monopivot Weyless now!

    Btw the future is rubber bikes with the suspension integrated into the frame!
    [SIZE=5]FLUBBER BIKE! [/SIZE] Sweet!

    BTW, the wife is forcing me to post too, and we are sick of this sht.

  6. #6
    Daniel the Dog
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    I've been depressed for a week...

    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    WOW, I've been out for 3 weeks on vacation and the first news I read on MTBR is that Turner is changing it's suspension design for a non horst rear!!! What's this, is it that finally we've been kidding ourselves with all those years with horst link bikes and bottom line they don't really make a difference? Kona, Jamis, Ventana and a few others must be laughing right now! That may also be why Giant, SantaCruz, Intense and Iron Horse have moved to a new hype VPP design, will we learn in a few years that this was also no better than a regular single pivot bike? Is it still going to be worth is to pay extra money for a Titus or Ellsworth just to get that "hyped" rear suspension?

    Man, I've never owned a full that was not a horst link so I can't really write my opinion but I am sure a bit dissapointed right now.

    Please all of you suspension maniacs (Tscheezy, DGC, ...), give me some reassurance words, I'm sure you've had rides on many bikes at Interbike and you probably have it all figured out by now...

    Cheers.
    I think Casey and the guys finally got into drugs. I'm guessing either crack or ice. Geeze!

    Jaybo

  7. #7
    what a joke
    Reputation: ozlongboarder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Horst links and faux bars only work the same in the states.. In the rest of the world the Horst clearly works better. That's why Devinci equip their bikes with a seat stay pivot only in the U.S. and a chain stay pivot every where else.
    Interesting.........
    blah blah blah

  8. #8
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I think Casey and the guys finally got into drugs. I'm guessing either crack or ice. Geeze!

    Jaybo


    Its even worse, Casey is selling road bikes in Texas!

  9. #9
    Daniel the Dog
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    He should have built a higher wall in Houston

    Quote Originally Posted by drumstix
    Its even worse, Casey is selling road bikes in Texas!
    After the towering homer that sunk the Astros. Poor ba*tards!

    Jaybo


    PS sorry, I know most cycling geeks hate sports. Who are the Astro's? Hmm.

  10. #10
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    oh gawd!

    can we move on now? please? would someone be so kind as to point the affore mentioned gun to my head and fire if this doesnt end soon? is it possible to write a entire post in nuthin but questions?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  11. #11
    DGC
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    I finally will post

    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    WOW, I've been out for 3 weeks on vacation and the first news I read on MTBR is that Turner is changing it's suspension design for a non horst rear!!! What's this, is it that finally we've been kidding ourselves with all those years with horst link bikes and bottom line they don't really make a difference? Kona, Jamis, Ventana and a few others must be laughing right now! That may also be why Giant, SantaCruz, Intense and Iron Horse have moved to a new hype VPP design, will we learn in a few years that this was also no better than a regular single pivot bike? Is it still going to be worth is to pay extra money for a Titus or Ellsworth just to get that "hyped" rear suspension?

    Man, I've never owned a full that was not a horst link so I can't really write my opinion but I am sure a bit dissapointed right now.

    Please all of you suspension maniacs (Tscheezy, DGC, ...), give me some reassurance words, I'm sure you've had rides on many bikes at Interbike and you probably have it all figured out by now...

    Cheers.
    Did I hear my name being called for Turner TNT impressions?
    First off, relax, completely.
    I have elected to completely stay away from the posts on this, I have said absolutely nothing........til now. It got out of hand. Seems it finally has settled down some.
    Here is my take.
    We have been treating the "Horst Link" like it is the holy grail of suspension pivots and everything else sucks. In a way, like the performance image of a Ferrari against a Plymouth Neon as an example if that makes sense. However, the position of the HL has changed from years past to its current location. The current location does much less than some around here think. Yes a computer image or a linkage program will show some slight differences as even shown on Turner's own web page inside TNT link, but........................the differences are so minimal. How minimal?.......read on.
    Now take the computer out of the picture and what do you have? The human factor = the rider. Enough people have already proven at Interbike demo day how important the rider is. If there are people here saying they cannot feel the difference then it wont matter what the computer program says. ....Thats how small the difference is. Some may be set in their ways and want to be able to say otherwise just for the sake of arguing a mute point. Just go back 2 years when the 5 Spot was just out, so many non believers questioned that the 5 Spot was really as good as it was being touted and worth its asking price, and today many of those people now swear by the Turner they ride. And many more after them feel the same too. I still get e-mails from some who bought Spots 2 years ago and are still smiling about the bike itself after every ride.
    I am not trying to say its the best bike ever, I am just trying to put some things into perspective. Nothing much has changed.

    Now those who say things like they have ridden many different seat stay pivot bikes and claim the new Turner TNT bikes will exhibit the same drawbacks are not testing apples to apples, they are just talking out their left cheek......A bike that looks almost identical to another of its kind is ......... only that, look -a- like.

    For an accurate test of the Turner 5 Spot TNT (or any other Turner TNT) the non Turner against it would have to be almost to the enth millimeter the exact same dimensions and geometry throughout vs. the 5 Spot.
    I will say, a slight tweek here, 1 degree different angle there, a few millimeters down there, bigger diameter this, all make differences. Discount 100% those ideas from believers of all CS bikes perform same. No 2 different bikes perform the same.
    As for your question of is it going to still be worth it down the road a few years to pay the extra $$$ for a Titus or Ellsworth? More attention needs to be put towards what differences the current HL is actually making, and see if Specialized makes changes down the road to it then that answer will come.
    I dont like the idea of paying more $$$ for a boutique bike with what I call the same Specialized suspension drawbacks. As for Ellsworth? TE has proven plenty on his own forum what kind of person he really is. There is a reason I call it Ellsworthless.

    Sorry for the old picture quality, It is a 1995 picture.....!!!!!!.....By the way, this bike is still being ridden in Tahoe 10 years later.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by DGC; 10-18-2005 at 03:46 AM. Reason: pix
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  12. #12
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    First I want to say I'm sorry to all Turner folks for my post. I pulled the trigger too fast. I came back from vacation, checked out some Interbike photos and saw the pivot location on the 06 Turner. So I browsed very quickly the subjects, but did not see a specific discussion so I posted my stupid post immediately. I did expect it would create some level of useless posting considering the subject but honestly my intention was not to raise any kind of forum war.

    Thanks DGC for providing some info. I'll take some time to read a few other threads instead of keeping this one alive by adding my comments to an already useless thread.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Did I hear my name being called for Turner TNT impressions?
    First off, relax, completely.
    I have elected to completely stay away from the posts on this, I have said absolutely nothing........til now. It got out of hand. Seems it finally has settled down some.
    Here is my take.
    We have been treating the "Horst Link" like it is the holy grail of suspension pivots and everything else sucks. In a way, like the performance image of a Ferrari against a Plymouth Neon as an example if that makes sense. However, the position of the HL has changed from years past to its current location. The current location does much less than some around here think. Yes a computer image or a linkage program will show some slight differences as even shown on Turner's own web page inside TNT link, but........................the differences are so minimal. How minimal?.......read on.
    Now take the computer out of the picture and what do you have? The human factor = the rider. Enough people have already proven at Interbike demo day how important the rider is. If there are people here saying they cannot feel the difference then it wont matter what the computer program says. ....Thats how small the difference is. Some may be set in their ways and want to be able to say otherwise just for the sake of arguing a mute point. Just go back 2 years when the 5 Spot was just out, so many non believers questioned that the 5 Spot was really as good as it was being touted and worth its asking price, and today many of those people now swear by the Turner they ride. And many more after them feel the same too. I still get e-mails from some who bought Spots 2 years ago and are still smiling about the bike itself after every ride.
    I am not trying to say its the best bike ever, I am just trying to put some things into perspective. Nothing much has changed.

    Now those who say things like they have ridden many different seat stay pivot bikes and claim the new Turner TNT bikes will exhibit the same drawbacks are not testing apples to apples, they are just talking out their left cheek......A bike that looks almost identical to another of its kind is ......... only that, look -a- like.

    For an accurate test of the Turner 5 Spot TNT (or any other Turner TNT) the non Turner against it would have to be almost to the enth millimeter the exact same dimensions and geometry throughout vs. the 5 Spot.
    I will say, a slight tweek here, 1 degree different angle there, a few millimeters down there, bigger diameter this, all make differences. Discount 100% those ideas from believers of all CS bikes perform same. No 2 different bikes perform the same.
    As for your question of is it going to still be worth it down the road a few years to pay the extra $$$ for a Titus or Ellsworth? More attention needs to be put towards what differences the current HL is actually making, and see if Specialized makes changes down the road to it then that answer will come.
    I dont like the idea of paying more $$$ for a boutique bike with what I call the same Specialized suspension drawbacks. As for Ellsworth? TE has proven plenty on his own forum what kind of person he really is. There is a reason I call it Ellsworthless.

    Sorry for the old picture quality, It is a 1995 picture.....!!!!!!.....By the way, this bike is still being ridden in Tahoe 10 years later.

  13. #13
    Roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Horst links and faux bars only work the same in the states.. In the rest of the world the Horst clearly works better. That's why Devinci equip their bikes with a seat stay pivot only in the U.S. and a chain stay pivot every where else.
    Maybe they just sell better.

  14. #14
    The Ancient One
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    Proof of true 4-bar superiority?

    It should be pointed out that when Devinci first released the Banzai, now called the Remix, they said it was the result of their research with an "instrumented bike". This was a bike with all kinds of sensors at various points on the frame and a back pack carried computer.

    They were looking for info on which points were most under stress and would need reinforcement and which points could be made lighter. They were also looking for the ideal pivot placements to produce efficiency.

    What they came up with looks somewhere between an Ellsworth and a Turner. The drop-out pivot is very close to and right ahead of the axle, like an Ellsworth. The rocker arm is shorter and more angled than an Ellsworth--more like a Turner.

    The bike fell within the claims of the ICT patent, which is international, and Devinci licensed ICT from Ellsworth and put on a sticker.

    Presumably, the reason they do not sell the true 4-bar version in the U.S. is that Specialized won't let them. They would have to license from both just as Dave Turner did.

  15. #15
    Bite Me.
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    Oh, enough on this topic already!
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  16. #16
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    It ... did.
    Cross posting crap. Go away.

  17. #17
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    "For an accurate test of the Turner 5 Spot TNT (or any other Turner TNT) the non Turner against it would have to be almost to the enth millimeter the exact same dimensions and geometry throughout vs. the 5 Spot."

    We could now have just such a test by taking a new 05 5-Spot and when availabel a new 06 5-Spot and outfit them with identical components and test them side by side as the rest of the bikes appear to be the same except for the near rear wheel pivot. Then have a number of different riders of different abilities test ride them on varying terrain. You could probably shroud the axle areas on both bikes to make it a true blind test.

    I'm sure Turner has allready done this and according to their sales info you can't tell the difference. I believe that there will be differences in some situations and that in certain situations the Horst link will perform better, most likely traction during pedalling and braking under loose and bumpy condtions. There will probably also be condtions where the single pivot performs better, most likely smooth dry hardpack. Anybody got a spare 10 grand for a couple of real nice bikes?

  18. #18
    Lay off the Levers
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    Or someone could just acquire a TNT rear triangle and bolt it onto an existing HL Spot.
    But then you'd have to trust that person's opinion, and ability to tell the difference, and accecpt their riding style and terrain might play a factor.

    If the two are really close in performance, I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get a fix on the different ride reviews.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  19. #19
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    My inclination is that when the TNT bikes hit the street, the bubble will be burst and people will get to see in real life that they can't tell the difference and Turners are the sum of many parts, only one of which was the nostalgic use of the HL.

    People will see, just like at IB that he designs great riding bikes. HL or not.

  20. #20
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    OK, I've had enough, stop posting in this lame thread of mine or I'm moving to the Ells forum

    Noooo, I could not do that, I'm already quite a bad guy not even a Turner owner and posting here all the time to get answers to my "sometimes" stupid questions.

    Anyway, I've done my homework now and my thread is definitely useless, there are plenty of other interesting (and not so interesting) threads which cover the subject very thoroughly so please stop posting in this one and if there is a moderator in the house, I would be happy if my thread would just be removed completely.

    Thanks guys, I hope most of you will not be angry with me, next time I go on vacation I'll do my homework before posting a stupid one like this.

    Cheers.

  21. #21
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    $15

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    Maybe they just sell better.
    it is just that manifacturers get tired (perhaphs rightly so) of giving $15 to Specialized for each frame they produce. Blame the idiotic laws of the USA that allow a coorporation to buy rights on "inventions" they did not develop. (To look at another idiotic example: the long tentacles of Specialized seems to be able to reach to Stratos now, pushing the quite wonderful ID inertia valve out of production).

    It is also less expensive to build a faux-bar and Turner will be getting a little nice extra $/frame. This of course assuming somebody buys a Turner next year it will be kind of a foolish thing to do with Ventana (and Sycip ... and Kona!) around ...

    and without mentioning the systems that work better from a start. IBIS DW (which might be too risky for the homer conservative types) the VPP (that ought to be better than a faux-bar, don't they?), all the nice Mestro-DW-VPP linkage floating around and of course the Horst/ITC variants Titus, Nicolai, Ellsworth, Scott ...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Davide; 10-18-2005 at 09:12 PM.

  22. #22
    DGC
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    bingo.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Or someone could just acquire a TNT rear triangle and bolt it onto an existing HL Spot.
    But then you'd have to trust that person's opinion, and ability to tell the difference, and accecpt their riding style and terrain might play a factor.

    If the two are really close in performance, I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get a fix on the different ride reviews.
    Hey Zilla,
    I will be doing such a test just like that soon enough. DT is sending me a TNT rear end to bolt onto my 2005 Spot. It will get ridden for weeks on the same trails i have been riding for the past 12 years.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  23. #23
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    Upset

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Hey Zilla,
    I will be doing such a test just like that soon enough. DT is sending me a TNT rear end to bolt onto my 2005 Spot. It will get ridden for weeks on the same trails i have been riding for the past 12 years.
    I should be getting my '06 demo bike soon in 10 days or so. I know more than 3 HL spot owners that we could swap bikes during a ride to compare them. Drawback is that all other components will be different. Your test will be a better benchmark and mine will have more riders' input. Once in for all HL vs TNT will be put to rest.

  24. #24
    Daniel the Dog
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    It doesn't make sense

    A lot of guys, myself included, are done buying Turner's because of the change. Why do it? It certainly isn't a selling point for the company. Is it a legal issue? A profit issue? I would rather pay another $100 and get a HL. I'm really not getting it. By the way, I owned a seatstay pivot bike, it did not brake nearly as well as my Turner. I hope the new seatstay bike (errr, TNT) is as good as the HL. However, I would not hold my breath.

    Jaybo

  25. #25
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    Guys like you aren't in the market for a new bike anyway.

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