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  1. #1
    "Its All Good"
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    I would like to see some synergy between Nicolai and Turner

    Am not at all trolling..................

    DT and Karl worked together in the young days, both producing great frames, etc....

    You all well know the great CS with Turner.... I know the great CS with Nicolai, and I know that the perceived CS level that has happened in the USA has not been great from feedback, but this is also directly related to the USA Nicolai importer that was in place, of which is not any longer.....

    Nicolai is not a big player in the USA, for a raft of reasons..... A synergy would help both companies greatly...

    I feel that, screw the rumours of a DW link hookup.... What we should have is some sort of hook up with Turner/Nicolai......

    Flame me, go for it, but I still think it would be great...........................
    Last edited by Whafe; 06-20-2008 at 05:58 AM.
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  2. #2
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    That would be pretty cool

    Helius RFX

  3. #3
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    Didnt get to names..... LOL

    Everything starts with a thought.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  4. #4
    thats right living legend
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    Are you off your meds again?
    Can't stop, Won't stop.

  5. #5
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    Other than for "warm fuzzies" why should DT help KN build up his business over here and create more competition for himself? Also, Turner already struggles at times to get frames out in reasonable times so increasing their business overseas doesn't seem like an option there. Lastly (if I remember right) DT respects the gearboxes but has no problem bolting a derailleur to his frames so KN has nothing DT would want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesh to Steel
    With people liking mongoose and trek bikes now, what's next in this crazy world? People disliking the bottlerocket?!

  6. #6
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    I don't know how this ties in, but Turner has returned to Germany under distribution by Toxoholics.

  7. #7
    "Its All Good"
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    Bulldog - Hear you loud and clear, for sure there could well be more than warm and fuzzies. And of course am probly in dreamland, but spending time in Warsaw does that to me....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  8. #8
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    While I think synergy between Nic and Turner is way off, there appears to be some synergy between the owners of Turner and Ventana, as well as their customers. It's not an impossibility, but highly unlikely. Their philosphies are too divergent at this point, I would think. DT and I disagree on this point, but I do like the looks of some of the more conservative/conventional frames from Nic.

    As far as technology goes...well...anything is possible, I suppose, but I think they work better being independent of one another and unattenuated in their separate missions.

  9. #9
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    Is it Clown Crap Friday already?

    Not to throw water on ya brah, but what's Turner get out of this?
    Nicolai gets:
    -Better access to us markets
    -Better brand name recognition
    -Turner's endorsement/validation (not that Nicolai needs it but still it looks good to have an established brand help out

    But, I don't see what Turner gets in retrun for the efforts and costs involved.
    Turner has to :
    -dilute his market share
    -face greater pressure from another Horst Link/ICT brand saying it's better just because.
    -deal with the preception that he couldn't go it alone so he got help from Nicolai
    -deal with whatever legal issues are involved with the horst link on the Nicolai bikes in the US.

    I mean, Nicolai isn't building or designing anything DT can't or isn't doing or has done in the past. Apart from the HL, whatever design differences exist between the bikes is more a matter of the designer's preference and their perception of what market wants, and IMO DT's put more time into listening to the US market than Nicolai has.


    So what's Nicolai going to do for Turner?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  10. #10
    "Its All Good"
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    Well I am a plonka..... LOL............... Have thought more about it and I should have taken my meds.....

    And am indeed sorry to have messed with peoples time......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  11. #11
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    No way! We can't bring Crazy Fred back into the mix. It will be an apocolyptic, pain filled affair. All he!! will break loose, Cats and dogs living with eachother.

    You know, the more I think about it, this could make things interesting.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  12. #12
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    While I think synergy between Nic and Turner is way off, there appears to be some synergy between the owners of Turner and Ventana, as well as their customers.
    The "synergy" between Ventana & Turner owners are due to shared characteristics between the brands, including:

    - long track record
    - well designed
    - durability
    - superb C.S.
    - easy phone access and ability to speak with knowledgeable people directly
    - evolving designs to suit people's wants & needs
    - mutual respect between the owners of the companies

    But there hasn't been any synergy between the operations of Turner & Ventana since the 90s when Ventana produced some Turner frames

    I've never ridden a Nic but aesthetically I find them to be rather atrocious

    edit: I'll also add that some of the overlap between T & V I think may be due to the fact that a number of prominent MTBR dealers sell both brands
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    The "synergy" between Ventana & Turner owners are due to shared characteristics between the brands, including:

    - long track record
    - well designed
    - durability
    - superb C.S.
    - easy phone access and ability to speak with knowledgeable people directly
    - evolving designs to suit people's wants & needs
    - mutual respect between the owners of the companies

    But there hasn't been any synergy between the operations of Turner & Ventana since the 90s when Ventana produced some Turner frames

    I've never ridden a Nic but aesthetically I find them to be rather atrocious
    Funny, because there appears to be another brand with shared characteristics, but nothing else on that list.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    I've never ridden a Nic but aesthetically I find them to be rather atrocious
    Squeak Momma - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..... Am hoping that you dont make your bike choices purely on aesthetics alone..... The ride would blow you out, not literally though.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  15. #15
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Squeak Momma - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..... Am hoping that you dont make your bike choices purely on aesthetics alone..... The ride would blow you out, not literally though.....
    Yup, beauty...eye...gotcha. Aesthetics does play somewhat of a role. It's part of the total package.

    I mean no disrespect to the brand as I have no 1st hand experience.

    Just an observation.

    PS: Does Nic make niners?
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel

    PS: Does Nic make niners?
    custom order...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Yup, beauty...eye...gotcha. Aesthetics does play somewhat of a role. It's part of the total package.

    I mean no disrespect to the brand as I have no 1st hand experience.

    Just an observation.
    No disrespect taken at all..... They are a frame that you either love or hate pretty much....

    I rate 4 frame makers real focken high in regards to FS frames in no particular order (A - Z in this case) and for a vast number of reasons = Knolly, Nicolai, Turner & Ventana......

    If we jump to rigid 29er frames, more builders come into the picture....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  18. #18
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    Why not some synergy between Turner and Ells? I mean DT could then bring the horst link back and put those nice little ICT stickers on his frames.

  19. #19
    TLL
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    Turnicolai

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I rate 4 frame makers real focken high in regards to FS frames in no particular order (A - Z in this case) and for a vast number of reasons = Knolly, Nicolai, Turner & Ventana......
    Good list.

    As far as synergy, why not have JNC make some "TurNicolai" stickers for your Nicolai?

    (sounds like a bad case of food poisoning, now that I think of it)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    Why not some synergy between Turner and Ells? I mean DT could then bring the horst link back and put those nice little ICT stickers on his frames.
    He could save a lot of time and money if he just took his seat off and rode around on the post.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  21. #21
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    Ellsworth has enough trouble right now. I'm not sure anyone would want to hook up with them right now. Their employment revolving door is spinning faster that an ice skater.

    Whafe's idea is good but from the surface only. He wants to blend the best of both companies. Obviously, Nicolai has much more to gain while Turner would probably dilute its market share and the company philosophies are probably very different.

    I really need to know What Fork for a RFX or I want a Wotan/Woman but I'm really not looking forward to opening a new thread.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    No disrespect taken at all..... They are a frame that you either love or hate pretty much....

    I rate 4 frame makers real focken high in regards to FS frames in no particular order (A - Z in this case) and for a vast number of reasons = Knolly, Nicolai, Turner & Ventana......

    If we jump to rigid 29er frames, more builders come into the picture....
    That list works for me.

    My LBS/On-line dealer sells 3 of those 4 brands (he doesn't sell the ugly one)
    Last edited by The Squeaky Wheel; 06-20-2008 at 10:03 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Whafe, I think you're in the wrong forum. YOu should run over to the Jamis forum and see if you can't generate some Synergy over there. The designs are identical, so it should be a match made in heaven.
    Team Sanchez; "Always hittin the upper lip"

  24. #24
    thats right living legend
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    I don't see how anyone could possibly think Nicolai's are ugly. They use straite tubes just like Turner? There a little "German" looking which means they've got a bit of that S&M thing going on but hey whatever.

    Germans can be kinda creepy sometimes.
    Can't stop, Won't stop.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    I don't see how anyone could possibly think Nicolai's are ugly. They use straite tubes just like Turner? There a little "German" looking which means they've got a bit of that S&M thing going on but hey whatever.

    Germans can be kinda creepy sometimes.
    The Germans are really into Sheisse.

  26. #26
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    I like German automobiles and beer.

    I used to like German skis but now Volkls are made in Asia since K2 bought them.

    And there was recently a very busty Playmate of the Month from Bavaria who caught my fancy.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  27. #27
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The Germans are really into Sheisse.
    If that's what I think it is, the fact that I was able to "figure it out" causes me great concern.
    Can't stop, Won't stop.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The Germans are really into Sheisse.
    Spelling, JC

    Scheisse/Scheiße

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    ...there was recently a very busty Playmate of the Month from Bavaria who caught my fancy.
    Ah yes...you do have curious tastes



  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Ah yes...you do have curious tastes

    He wants to pump you up
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  31. #31
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    Whafe - definitely respect your sentiments, why not start with the riders? Get some synergy going there!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Germans can be kinda creepy sometimes.
    Hey isn't JC in Germany now?



    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  33. #33
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    Nicolai makes fine bikes, but I don't see them having that much in common with Turner.

    A big part of the appeal of Turner for me is the simplicity. No extra bolts&holes for a myriad of geometry & drivetrain options which may never be used, but add weight and maintenance.

    Some people value having those options, and for them Knolly and Nicolai are great choices.

    I'm a big fan of simple, functional designs, hence I'm not likely to stray far from Turner, especially having witnessed their incredible customer service, I just don't feel like I'm missing anything with these other brands.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    Spelling, JC

    Scheisse/Scheiße
    No S-sed on my computer

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chingon
    Whafe, I think you're in the wrong forum. YOu should run over to the Jamis forum and see if you can't generate some Synergy over there. The designs are identical, so it should be a match made in heaven.
    Quite in the cheap seats pretty boy.......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    Whafe - definitely respect your sentiments, why not start with the riders? Get some synergy going there!
    Plenty of Synergy with the riders in my neck of the woods...... Main crew are on Turner, Ellsworth, Nicolai and Specipoop...................
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  37. #37
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    Jamis Nicolai synergy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Quite in the cheap seats pretty boy.......
    No pun intended eh?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  38. #38
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    Anything that wold bring back Crazy Fred is great in my book.

    Beyond that, most small builders have their work cut out for them getting the word out - especially when they face all the hand-jobs the magazines give their big $$$ advertisers. I can't imagine how they did it in the days before the net and still pay the bills - at least now they can get a wide audience pretty easily with sites like this.

    Nicolai seems to build a pretty good product, as an outside observer it looks like they need to be more proactive getting the word out - beyond CF of course. Start small and build a reputation on the boards and in the shops and they will grow. There's always room for someone else. If I were Nicolai I'd start at places like Sea Otter and the Interbike demos - have top notch builds on all the frames and go from there. Also, maybe sponsor a few pages on sites like MTBR to start getting the word out.
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  39. #39
    Roy
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    This thread has gone well...

  40. #40
    "Its All Good"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    This thread has gone well...
    Yep, "it's gone down like a turd in a punchbowl"
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK Chris
    If I were Nicolai I'd start at places like Sea Otter and the Interbike demos - have top notch builds on all the frames and go from there. Also, maybe sponsor a few pages on sites like MTBR to start getting the word out.
    If I was Karl Nicolai, I'd do a better job of getting rippers (young and old) on my bikes here in the states and, probably more importantly, in Canada. I think that's the cheapest form of marketing a bike mfgr. can do. Sure, they might lose most (or all) of the margin on a some frame sales, but they get folks that shred to act as informal ambassadors for their brand.

    Also, I agree with Chris that anything that brings Crazy Fred back into the Turner fold is welcome in my eyes!!

    EB

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Also, I agree with Chris that anything that brings Crazy Fred back into the Turner fold is welcome in my eyes!!
    Rumor has it that Fred is getting a Sultan !
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  43. #43
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    That would be so awesome.

    As an aside, WTH? FRED was in that Sultan thread in F61 and everyone behaved. Kinda freaked me out a little bit.

  44. #44
    "Its All Good"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    If I was Karl Nicolai, I'd do a better job of getting rippers (young and old) on my bikes here in the states and, probably more importantly, in Canada. I think that's the cheapest form of marketing a bike mfgr. can do. Sure, they might lose most (or all) of the margin on a some frame sales, but they get folks that shred to act as informal ambassadors for their brand.

    Also, I agree with Chris that anything that brings Crazy Fred back into the Turner fold is welcome in my eyes!!

    EB
    EB - Very true, and I agree, this is being done in Europe in quite a big way, but not in the USA, I dont think to be honest it has been a focus in the past, I know it is for the future, with a distribution change and faster turn around times, things may change.

    If I could shred I could be a Whafe Bassadork.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  45. #45
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    Crazy Fred is back and it appears, he is a much more balanced Fred and not prone to fits of rage at the drop of a hat. I like this Fred a LOT better (maybe this is the real Fred?) though we know that the rage lurks below...silently there...waiting to be unleashed.

    Yeah, the Sultan is winning many over to that horribly dark and twisted world of 29er fans.

  46. #46
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    Whafes FR s pretty cool actually esspecailly in the flesh, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

    Anyways personaly I like brands to have there own unique identity, I hate copy cats and there's too many out there, I like companies that innovate but also evolve nothing worst than a bike model disapearing every one or too years, I mean if you the manafacturer can't believe in your own designs then why shoudl we, and only the consumerholic is sucked in by the marketing BS that sells the latest fad each year or too, why I won';t touch some brands, in this respect there's some similarties to Nicolai and Turner they innovate slowly and precisely like swiss clocks, and build on there quality CS and brand and and us, but like other Homies I see no benefit in joining forces actually it may rob us all of the differences we all enjoy of each brand!

    Whafe is passionate about his Nics like we are for our Turners and thats cool, I like Ventana's and appreciate Knolly's both Knolls and Nics way to hot $$ for me though, I'd rather add another Turner to my stable, but everyone is at different levels, such is life!

    I can't see much changing imo DT has a secret forumla which he instills in each frame for the long term which breeds the loyalty from well informned and experinced riders and many have copied DTs innovations, like most things you have to experience it for yourself a test ride never does anything justice! No doubt same for Nicolai, Knolly and Ventana!

    We should celebrate all these cool brands for there differences and likes, we are all winners at the end of the day, which was a game of too halves, so feed the backs and go ride ya bikes beyotchs and get me pictures
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Rumor has it that Fred is getting a Sultan !
    Yes, but it's because he likes the name.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  48. #48
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    - mutual respect between the owners of the companies
    thank you for including the caveat of "owners of the companies"

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    ...caveat...
    Ew! I hate fish eggs! You just totally ruined my morning synergy, biatch!


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