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  1. #1
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    Homer-phobic!!!!!!!!!!!

    ....I feel like I need to rant:

    [rant]Prior to my Turner purchase some while ago, I mostly was an RM junkie....only peeking in on empty beer every now & then. Soon after the new format & creation of the manufacturer forums (shortly after I had my 5 Spot) I really found this forum (Turner) to be quite entertaining & beneficial. So much so that I found myself spending more & more time here (probably more than I should have<img>). The commonly referred to qualities (wealth of knowledge, experience, candor/ humor, frequent posts by DT) quickly distinguished this board from the others. In fact, it wasn't at all uncommon to find the place flooded with peeps from all over MTBR...just hanging out talking about anything & everything. It seems with Turner's increasing popularity, on these boards & with Spot sales, came an influx of people/ owners to the boards. Unfortunately this board seemed to be changing from one of distinguished, knowledgeable discussions covering the bike spectrum (& occasional scat study <img>) to the typical "what fork for my new Turner" threads aplenty. Well, I overlooked it & continued on....however, this recent rash of ignorance that is showing up all over these boards is just embarrassing frankly. No longer does the average posting Homer appear to be knowledgeable...AT ALL. In fact, the board has been littered with every kind of moronic presumption I have ever had the displeasure of reading on the internet.
    I understand some of you feel lost....or betrayed somehow, but please take 5 minutes & think before you just post random, unintelligle blabbering that just reveals your lack of insight to those who have some. I also understand that every inbred random feels the need to come on the Turner board & take his cheap shots.....I pretty much expect that from them. If you don't have either the foresight to envision DT's ability to deliver (since when has the man EVER compromised quality/ performance for a buck?) or the strength of mind to ascend from the marketing haze of corporate giants....do us all a favor: unload your Turners & move on. At least go piss & moan somewhere else...........[/rant]


  2. #2
    Silence and Thunder...
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    Well said. I second that (actually a few days ago...)
    Exciting times...

    "Homer-phobic" ...excellent title!
    ...every day sends future to past...

  3. #3
    FM
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    X-post:
    Food for thought; all hardtails have the same pivot location.

    Does an I.F. ride just like a rockhopper? No.

    well, actually maybe they do- you hop on and pedal. It's fun!

    What more is there to discuss?


    yes it is a trainwreck here, and there are two reasons why imho:
    1. Not enough turner- or riding-related content supplied by turner-owners.
    2. Too much non-turner-owner supplied, non-riding-related content.

    I'm not saying that non-turner owners should get lost, but this is the turner board and it has been hi-jacked by discussions that by-and-large have nothing to do with riding bikes, let alone riding turner bikes. Kind of reminds me of april in moab; the locals had a good thing going, now they're outnumbered by thrill-seeking tight-wad tourists.

  4. #4
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    Don't forget a big whack of the quality regulars are out at IB and such...when the cat's away I guess.


    I will also repost some carefully considered thoughts:

    Yes, I too see the HL as a point of distinction. Yes, that's part of what drew me towards Turnerbikes. Does that mean Next year's bikes won't ride as good as this years? C'mon who are you kidding, when has that ever happened with a Turner?

    IMBO:
    It's about the ride. Those of you that have just got your Turners have the same amazing bike we've all been waxing over for *years*. It has not been diminished by a new model year's changes, improvement or otherwise.

    It's about the design. It's been said by many, including myself, for years...what makes the Turners ride like a $500 hooker on xc is that DT busted his arse to design them that way, often holding up production for years until he was satisfied the bike rode and did what he intended, and addressed years of feedback he collected from experts and the customer base during the R&D phases.

    It's about the details. Ever notice there are very few, if any complaints in this forum about easily dented tubes, cracked chainstays, lack of tire clearence, incomplete travel, crappy ride, noisy operation, rapid pivot wear, flexy triangles, redic-u-high bottom brackets, too little standover, or production model weights and/or geometry that are nowhere near what's in the catalog or website? Ever notice you can find such complaints in many other brand forums?

    It's about the service. Time and time again folks praise, big-time, how Casey, DT, Greg (alphabetically) go above and beyond the call of duty and get a rapid and very complete solution to relatively few problems we have seen posted here?

    It's about the execution. There are tons of SP bikes out there. How many of them are equal to Ventana? Many people have stated after significant time on some of the best SPs that they couldn't find the theoretical problems often associated with lesser built bikes. (duh!) In that same vein there are tons of examples of how some of the best HLs like the Turners, were as stiff or stiffer than a lot of the SPs which in theory could be designed to be stiffer. A crap bike is a crap bike regardless of the design theroy it's based on. An excellent bike is top shelf because it was designed and built that way.

    Above all, it's about the commitment. Whatever the motivation for the change was, I find it hard to believe after 10+ years of singlemindedly building the absolute best bikes he could possibly bring to production, that DT or Turnerbikes would simply depart from that mission purely b/c they wanted to save a buck. TE pulled the rug out, no doubt about it. But that dosen't mean next year's Turners will ride like Konas (no disrespect to the brand), anymore than they'll ride like a Walmart Mongoose. I'm projecting here but if DT were the kind of guy to drop the Horst soly to save a buck, he would have probably not waited a full model year to do it. He waited until he could produce a bike that met his standards without the HL. If it was about the royalties he probably would have gone sp long ago and told Spechy buh-bye.

    It bothers me to see a company that has shown so much commitment to design, execution and service, that time and time again made sure they did the right thing for their customers, that rose to the top purely on word of mouth b/c their products and sevice are that good. Suddenly can't get the benifit of the doubt from half the people who were out ther singing their praises just yesterday.

    It's a dammed shame.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 09-29-2005 at 09:38 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  5. #5
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    right on man! seems a few of us are startin to feel the same. not knowing of this post, i just did one of my own on somewhat the same set of ideas. Please Read This. a open letter to all turner homers but as i check back in on it i see it may be of little use. i wasnt tryin to save the world, just help heal a tiny piece of it, keeping in mind its a piece of my own. keep the faith jn!
    No, I'm NOT back!

  6. #6
    Now with flavor!!
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    Here's a picture of me riding a single pivot turner. I was on TNT before it was cool



    Here's what I did to my wheel later that day by coming up short on something. I don't think a horst link would have helped.



    And also, what color chamois cream matches my new spot?
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  7. #7
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Here's a picture of me riding a single pivot turner. I was on TNT before it was cool
    Sick! Where is that (if you can say on the 'net)?

  8. #8
    Now with flavor!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Sick! Where is that (if you can say on the 'net)?
    As far as I know the trail is mostly destroyed.

    Look under the name zachdank on the DH forum. He's put up some video captures as photos. It was his and his buddies trail. Very fun.

    This is where I did my wheel. I'd been doing that drop all day but for some reason decided to poke off of it this time.

    I didn't notice any brake jack or pedal feedback though.

    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  9. #9
    on a routine expedition
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ....I feel like I need to rant:

    [rant]Prior to my Turner purchase some while ago, I mostly was an RM junkie....only peeking in on empty beer every now & then. Soon after the new format & creation of the manufacturer forums (shortly after I had my 5 Spot) I really found this forum (Turner) to be quite entertaining & beneficial. So much so that I found myself spending more & more time here (probably more than I should have). The commonly referred to qualities (wealth of knowledge, experience, candor/ humor, frequent posts by DT) quickly distinguished this board from the others. In fact, it wasn't at all uncommon to find the place flooded with peeps from all over MTBR...just hanging out talking about anything & everything. It seems with Turner's increasing popularity, on these boards & with Spot sales, came an influx of people/ owners to the boards. Unfortunately this board seemed to be changing from one of distinguished, knowledgeable discussions covering the bike spectrum (& occasional scat study) to the typical "what fork for my new Turner" threads aplenty. Well, I overlooked it & continued on....however, this recent rash of ignorance that is showing up all over these boards is just embarrassing frankly. No longer does the average posting Homer appear to be knowledgeable...AT ALL. In fact, the board has been littered with every kind of moronic presumption I have ever had the displeasure of reading on the internet.
    I understand some of you feel lost....or betrayed somehow, but please take 5 minutes & think before you just post random, unintelligle blabbering that just reveals your lack of insight to those who have some. I also understand that every inbred random feels the need to come on the Turner board & take his cheap shots.....I pretty much expect that from them. If you don't have either the foresight to envision DT's ability to deliver (since when has the man EVER compromised quality/ performance for a buck?) or the strength of mind to ascend from the marketing haze of corporate giants....do us all a favor: unload your Turners & move on. At least go piss & moan somewhere else...........[/rant]
    Thank you. The hand-wringing, whining, and emotional tirades have been pretty over-the-top. Particularly in light of the fact that almost no one here has even ridden one of the bikes with the new design.

    I'm surprised to see so many people putting so much emphasis on just one aspect of the design. It seems to me that it's a combination of many different factors that make Turners ride the way they do.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    It's about the ride.

    It's about the design.

    It's about the details.

    It's about the service.

    It's about the execution.

    Above all, it's about the commitment.

    It bothers me to see a company that has shown so much commitment to design, execution and service, that time and time again made sure they did the right thing for their customers, that rose to the top purely on word of mouth b/c their products and sevice are that good. Suddenly can't get the benifit of the doubt from half the people who were out ther singing their praises just yesterday.

    It's a dammed shame.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    ......nice composition of thought Big'n.....but, you forgot one important one!

    It's about the FMB PORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    .........oh & about the ball butter KW...go with your heart man!


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ......nice composition of thought Big'n.....but, you forgot one important one!
    It's about the FMB PORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Crap! I just ripped into my memory sticks to get some ride shots from last w/e and corrupted a 128mb stick. Summer family vacation- deleted...non-existent backup...priceless

    Oh well, I still have this to look at, and *ride*




    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  12. #12
    KDK
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    Zilla you have summarised my feelings about the issue way better than I ever could.

    Last year when I decided to spend a small fortune to buy a frame, I chose to buy a frame which I never seen before from the other side of the world. The deciding factor was not the HL crap but DTs commitment to building quality frames and honoring his product if something went wrong.

    In my humble opinion there are no changes to the fundemental components of what makes a Turner bike great. A Turner bike is a Turner bike and I am 100% confident that DT will get it right. DT gets the geometry and other ride qualities spot on and he could even make a unicycle better than anyone else !!!

    And to summarise -

    my next bike will be Turner.

  13. #13
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    i don't post that often on this forum just come here now and then to read up on the latest turner info. I've had my 5 spot for 2.5 years now and love it its the greatest bike i have ever owned, i say this now whilst DT is away at interbike but it'll do alot more than it was intended for

    But i feel a bit ashamed..........you guys esp Bikezilla, your 5spots are so clean, shiney and bling!! whereas mine is scratched, dented, has mismatching tyres and dirty!! i think i might go home after work and give her a good clean and polish and repent my sins.

    as for all this horst/tnt nonsense its actually quite funny how people have over reacted, as long as they still ride great i don't care and would buy another one no problem, but obviously my current spot will last forever

  14. #14
    Xtremely Moderate
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    The more I hang out in here, the more certain I am, that by buying a Turner frame, I have just joined some sort of weird cult.........
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Korash your enemiez, zee zem driven bevore you, and ear ze lamentation of za vemen"

  15. #15
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    Hello!

    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ....I I also understand that every inbred random feels the need to come on the Turner board & take his cheap shots.....I pretty much expect that from them.]
    Check out your signature; you get off a couple of good cheap shots yourself.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    Check out your signature; you get off a couple of good cheap shots yourself.
    .....what goes around....<img>


  17. #17
    Brass Nipples!
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    It certainly is irrritating...

    When people who don't own a particular brand post a lot of critical stuff on that brand's board. When it happens on the Ellsworth board and the Ellsworth regulars complain, people tend to tell the Ellsworth owners to:

    1. Get a thicker skin.
    2. Ignore the troubling posts, no one is making you read 'em.
    3. Remember, these are open forums, set up so that the merits of the various brands can be discussed. No ownership of a particular brand is required.
    4. Just go and ride your bike.

    Brand loyalty is a little like religion as others have said. Dave "Moses" Turner just came down from Sinai with fifteen (crash) TEN commandments. Ya just gotta have faith that the good 10 are still there.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  18. #18
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    Hey 'Zilla. You make some great points.

    I'll just wait until I get a chance to ride the new faux-bar bikes. DT deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. He's a class act and there's no reason to believe that he'd compromise the ride of his bikes for any reason.

  19. #19
    jra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    It bothers me to see a company that has shown so much commitment to design, execution and service, that time and time again made sure they did the right thing for their customers, that rose to the top purely on word of mouth b/c their products and sevice are that good. Suddenly can't get the benifit of the doubt from half the people who were out ther singing their praises just yesterday.

    It's a dammed shame.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    Agreed. It's amazing that so many know exactly what wrong with many cycling products without having ever used them. There are going to be trade-offs with every frame available regardless of the riding slant that it's aimed. Some frames will be stiffer, some will climb or descend better in various terrain, etc. Not many know where the '06 DT frames are going to fall into the mix or if the latest changes have any real world impact on the trails. I do know that it's great to have a top notch company like Turner (for the reason you mention above) and a good guy like DT behind me everytime I'm on the trail.

  20. #20
    Toby Wong?
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    jn, give you my 2 cents

    i post over at another board and ******** isn't tolerated. Jerk off questions get heckled. Kooks get dealt with through unwelcoming responses.

    the Turner crew that posts here has seemingly endless patience for all of the bullsh!t that some of these guys post. I am continually amazed that guys will answer the "What fork for my 5Spot?" question over and over and over and over.

    if that sh!t went down at the other forum, they'd get JONG'd. JONG = Jerk Off Newbie Gaper. and that's what they are. They don't know how to Search. They don't respect the space. They just c u n t up the forum with useless/meaningless/simple questions and topics without contributing anything valuable.

    And you know what happens when they do that? They get the Haole-beatdown from Da Hui. Who's Da Hui? The locals. Cause this is their turf and if you don't like it or don't show some respect to who's in the line-up, ya gonna get beat down, ya JONG!

    ya don't f u c k with da Hui.


    (awww, he doesn't want to play nice that Tappoix's a d!ck why don't some of you kooks get a f'ing clue sometimes! )

  21. #21
    Now with flavor!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tappoix
    jn, give you my 2 cents

    i post over at another board and ******** isn't tolerated. Jerk off questions get heckled. Kooks get dealt with through unwelcoming responses.

    the Turner crew that posts here has seemingly endless patience for all of the bullsh!t that some of these guys post. I am continually amazed that guys will answer the "What fork for my 5Spot?" question over and over and over and over.

    if that sh!t went down at the other forum, they'd get JONG'd. JONG = Jerk Off Newbie Gaper. and that's what they are. They don't know how to Search. They don't respect the space. They just c u n t up the forum with useless/meaningless/simple questions and topics without contributing anything valuable.

    And you know what happens when they do that? They get the Haole-beatdown from Da Hui. Who's Da Hui? The locals. Cause this is their turf and if you don't like it or don't show some respect to who's in the line-up, ya gonna get beat down, ya JONG!

    ya don't f u c k with da Hui.


    (awww, he doesn't want to play nice that Tappoix's a d!ck why don't some of you kooks get a f'ing clue sometimes! )
    Aloha friend.

    Now please go back to your other forum where you can dish out the haole-beatdown and make it a better place.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  22. #22
    It's a Turner!
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    It's not that difficult to understand people's reactions. Anytime people are faced with a (seemingly) big change they go through several phases. Some people spend more time in some phases then others. I'm sure you've heard of this:

    The seven phases of change:

    1) Shock and surprise
    2) Denial and refusal
    3) Rational understanding
    4) Emotional acceptance
    5) Exercising and learning
    6) Realization
    7) Integration

    I think I'm currently in phase 3. The initial shock and surprise has pretty much worn off and only a few folks are still in denial and refusal. It's entertaining to see it play out on these boards. So it's not that people are necessarily being ignorant or displaying a lack of insight they are just dealing with the change in their own way. Cut folks some slack - it's already working itself out.



    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    .....what goes around....
    Last edited by sirbikesalot; 09-30-2005 at 08:55 AM.
    I didn't just drink the koolaid, I stuck my head in the punchbowl.

  23. #23
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    Aren't you from Oregon?

    TANPAX..nice quote
    "And you know what happens when they do that? They get the Haole-beatdown from Da Hui. Who's Da Hui? The locals. Cause this is their turf and if you don't like it or don't show some respect to who's in the line-up, ya gonna get beat down, ya JONG!

    ya don't f u c k with da Hui."



    Aren't You from Oregon? How did that negative attitude ever find its way into Mountain Biking?

    I have surfed all over this world, dealt with the coolest of locals and the biggest pricks....thats part of surfing, unfortunately. One thing that I love about MTB is what a low key and friendly sport it is. You can go anywhere in he world and have the locals show you what is special about their neck of the woods.

    What respect are you hoping to gain on a MTBR forum? If a forum is your "turf" you really lead a shallow and pathetic life.

    For your information Da Hui is a bunch of drug dealing, uneducated, ignorant thugs that run the North Shore underground.

    See you in the water, and on the trail
    Aloha

  24. #24
    My cup runneth over
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    Recent controversies seem to have brought out an almost religious zealotry here as evidenced by the shaken ‘faith’ in some. I didn’t realize that for ‘some’, their love of their Turners was so deep as to have recent events shake their faith/ideology. It really feels like the loss of the HL has brought Turner bikes back to earth for these folks and they are no longer riding the ‘best bike in existence’ and they cannot handle it. Like when a person has had a religious belief all their life and discovers it to be false and goes off the deep end…

    Certainly not true for most of the Homers, but there is still a hint of DT deification in many posts kind of calling to the faithful not to doubt DT, that he would not do anything to hurt the brand. I think this is the same thing. It could easily be that TnT Turners will ride worse than HL Turners for some - IT IS POSSIBLE. It is also possible (not proven!) that DT is letting a business decision override a design decision – IT IS POSSIBLE. I sense that many cannot even face that as a possibility because it takes away from the mystique of the brand. While true that the TnT may ride better, it just feels that we have gotten away from the usual objective comments that make this forum so endearing (!). Many seem to be praying (in whatever ways) that TnT is at least equal to or better than HL so that their faith (superiority complexes) can be restored.

    I think that quite a few of the negative comments from outside the Homer community are picking up on this and telling us all to just get out and ride and leave faith out of the bike.

    One final thought (before you collectively roast me!) – A lot of these same ‘religious’ tendencies are evidenced in other brands on other boards and I have always felt that the Turner board didn’t have that problem with all Homers more than willing to acknowledge the strengths of other brands and not feel a need to be defensive and offended by others’ posts. Now that the shoe is on another foot and the Turner brand is in question, it’s time to suck it up and wait until many have had many rides on the TnT design. If it is inferior to some so-be-it. It will have been DT’s decision and it will be for him to defend it.

  25. #25
    Now with flavor!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR
    [Aren't You from Oregon? Aloha
    Hahaa.

    Eastern cascade Hui.

    Classic.

    I loved that movie "north shore" I'm sure you did too. Tappiocca is mountian biking with a single fin mentality.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  26. #26
    Baked Alaskan
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    Great points raised by all, especially JN, Zilla. Everyone needs to just calm down and ride.

    For Sirbikesalot, #1 for me was utter confusion after not being on the boards for a couple weeks. Sheesh! You get too busy with work and next thing you know the whole Turner world is completely outta whack!
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  27. #27
    gravity curmudgeon
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    So what people are saying here is

    if you have emotional or opinionated content, it must be Turner supportive to be OK. Any content that is taken as "Homer-phobic" implies one has undesirable qualities and should be (enter favorite punishement here).

    Did I get that right?

    BTW, if true I guess then I used to enjoy the Turner forum because of the open and honest content, rather than the typical fanboy cr*p that shows up elsewhere. Do people really want this forum to have content that is essentailly a virtual Tuner group hug?

    My opinion is that the technical change is probably not a big deal realtive to the overall design, quality, and ride characteristics of a Turner bike. I'll have to ride for myself before I stamp anything in stone. But, the PR side-effects of the change from Horst-link/ICT is real and will likely have some impact (that story will have to play out). You can't just tell people HL is the best, year after year, and then all the sudden change to something that is "just as good" and not have a PR mess. Turner had a great vibe going, and we'll just have to see if that bubble withstands the change. In the end, my interests are in things like replacement parts and re-sale impacts. I'll find out when I find out.

    In the meanwhile, if people want to vent, so what? Why come down on fellow Homers just because they haven't simply swallowed the whole new TNT pill blindly? If the change is neutral to positive, all of this will be short-lived.

  28. #28
    Toby Wong?
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    ARG! i was in a bad mood when i posted what i did and came up on the angrier edge of
    jncarpenter's post. sorry if you were offended.

    now, i don't think i've come down too far from...

    ....this recent rash of ignorance that is showing up all over these boards is just embarrassing frankly....and has been littered with every kind of moronic presumption I have ever had the displeasure of reading on the internet.
    -and-

    If you don't have either the foresight to envision DT's ability to deliver (since when has the man EVER compromised quality/ performance for a buck?) or the strength of mind to ascend from the marketing haze of corporate giants....do us all a favor: unload your Turners & move on. At least go piss & moan somewhere else..
    ...except for tossing around a little thug-attitude. And, yeah, I'm not always able to pat the neophyte on the back and kindly nudge them in the right direction when the answer is so crazy obvious or just completely out in leftfield....sometimes i'm slapping myself on the head and wanting to say, "Get a clue, kook!".

    but seriously, the JONG thing is more bark than bite....it's about making people understand that they should respect the discussions and the time that people have put into the boards and the common knowledge and not turning this into a wasteland of sophomoric questions and informational detritus, which i think was part of jncarpenters post originally.

    that, and that you gotta have faith in da man DT

  29. #29
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    Zilla'a Soab Box Derby

    Quote Originally Posted by cowDawg
    So what people are saying here is

    if you have emotional or opinionated content, it must be Turner supportive to be OK. Any content that is taken as "Homer-phobic" implies one has undesirable qualities and should be (enter favorite punishement here)....
    Naw not really. I always take a post to represent only the poster not the whole forum. Good or bad. I hope most others do as well.
    (Zilla's last soapbox apperance...no really I'll shut-up after this... unless someone really pushes my button )

    I don't think the majority of people are religious zealots. Some newer owners certainly have had their recent decisions shaken by the sudden change though. But they are not the only people responding here.
    I think first, that some folks including myself are a little disappointed in the temporary loss of quality content while this discussion takes place. I'm okay with it though b/c it's part of forum behavior, it can't be helped and frankly things still flow better here than anyplace else I've seen.

    I personally am not suggesting anyone buy a bike on pivot theology. I also don't think DT was running around telling everyone and anyone HLs were the best period. He might have said he liked his designs best, and I don't think that is a crime. It's not like he has tons of ads hawking a design theology (ex ICT).

    IMO this is more like an artist's preferred canvas. I don't recall seeing DT bagging on Ventenna's performance b/c it is a SSP. And Sherwood didn't bag on Turner's stiffness because they were HLs. I think each respected the other's design choices as an artist's preference and each had characteristics they prefered.(No doubt each sought some distinction as well)
    My guess is that DT is a big HL proponent because he has more than a decade invested in developing and improving performance based on that particular platform. He liked the design, he ran with it and he got great results. Can he achieve equivalent performance using another kind of linkage? Why not. Others have at least come very close if not done so, but let's just see what time tells.

    Some other brands, mass produced, corporate managed, design by committee, have production deadlines and price and fab commitments that can limit what they can work with. DT has held up and even scrapped a design b/c everything wasn't right. I suspect there will be other tweaks over time.

    MY point is that more than anyone, Any good designer knows what he/she expects from his designs and knows how to get it. IMO, DT is the best person to figure out how to tweak a different linkage style to be as close as possible to his original target because it's his design. I don't consider that elevating him to some deity status. I really think a lot of non-Turner owners are quick to project that impression on us.

    I also think there are a few people anxious to equate any issue in this forum to previous discussions in the EW forum. I also think if anyone read the content in both forums they'd see that similarity really doesn't exist. I guess since we take plenty of shots at TE, it's only fair, plus we're not exempt from the occasional hot debate, and this is as good a reason as any.

    Can people come here and vent? sure. Can they come here and troll? there's no way to stop that other than not rise to the bait. I'll just be glad when the real witty people get back. The trolls always used to draw more laughs than flames.


    Gawd, somebody stop me before I post again.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  30. #30
    gravity curmudgeon
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    Yeah, I realize an online community has diversity, and about the only time my feathers get ruffled is when diversity gets muzzled. Trolls, on the other hand, are a pita, and there are certainly some chronic trollers.

    I love my flux, even if DT told me it is probably too XC oriented for my mtb needs. Turner bikes hooked me and helped me to reconnect with my inner mtb geek. I've known a lot of people in the biking industry, and DT is as straight a shooter as I have come across.

    But I will wait and see (and ride-time feel) before I cast my "yay" or "nay" vote on recent changes. Subtle differences are important to me. If I wanted good enough, I wouldn't have bought a Turner in the first place.

  31. #31
    And then?
    Reputation: TREK'ed-out!'s Avatar
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    For what it's worth...

    As a recently purchased, long drooled over, 5 Spot....All I can say is that I was personally attracted to the bike b/c of its H.L. and the fact that it could take the abuse of someone over 200lbs (real size men )...And also the rave reviews from people on this site. And you know what, I don't have any regrets whatsoever!
    Now that I hear of the Spot "replacement" I sure am disapointed. Not because I think it's a lesser quality bike. But simply b/c DT is not offering an equivalent design in this category for the time being. I could not care less if there is a S.P. bike in the Turner line - In fact, I sure like to test ride one. I simply wish I could purchase another H.L. 5Spot (or whatever name it will be) in 5-6 years from now.
    I truly think DT is taking a HUGE gamble on this one. Especially since we're talking about the highest selling product in their line up.
    DT, please keep the H.L. alive!

  32. #32
    Bite Me.
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    Gorsh, what happened to all the fun we used to have around here, no more Friday Clown Crap, everybody so serious and all. IT'S A FRIGGIN' WEBSITE FOR GOD'S SAKE!

    As for the TNT issue, I just can't wait to have Technology Neutralize my Torque. My Torques been needing a good Technological Neutralization, since, since,... well since I got married I guess.

    As long as the Turner designs continue to deliver their famous "pleasure of this frame in the provocative area", I couldn't care less if DT decides to lose the "patented 4 bar horst risky feather system".

    Cow wafer dudes.... and don't shy away from certainly for spicy downhill.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  33. #33
    fog
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    I have been spending waaay too much time thinking about this (and not riding), and now is the time for me to chime in.
    I have a 2001 XCE and have had zero problems with it other than you guys say that the 5-Spot is better. But that is progress. I do know that I am a better rider now, and that is all due to my XCE!

    Bikezilla said
    “I personally am not suggesting anyone buy a bike on pivot theology. I also don't think DT was running around telling everyone and anyone HLs were the best period. He might have said he liked his designs best, and I don't think that is a crime. It's not like he has tons of ads hawking a design theology (ex ICT)."

    fog says that IF DT thought his design was not the best why wouldn’t he change it to what he thought was the best.

    Zilla, I totally agree with you.

    DT changed the design for his reasons. I always thought that DT was more interested in producing what HE thought was the best handling frames. I think most of us agree with his success, I know I sure do.

    As a mechanical engineer who designs cutting edge systems, I have to constantly be open to changing my designs to stay ahead of the others. I respect what DT has done, and with his history, the TNT should be a great bike, after all his NAME is on every frame that gets sold, and that alone should say a lot, and to DT I am sure that it does. I seem to remember that in a recent interview in (I think a British MTB magazine) DT said that if something better came along he would use it. So something better came along and he is using it. Why are some people blasting him for that?

    DT I hope you have a patent of the TNT, or that it is not patent able for your protection!

    From preliminary reports, from respected people from this forum, it appears that the TNT seems to be fine. It is hard to get an opinion with a marginally set up bike on unfamiliar terrain, but first impressions seem to be ok.

    Hopefully others will be at the demo this weekend, and we will get their input. I am sure that as the new frames become available we will be getting a lot of evaluations.

    Sorry for the rant,
    Wayne

  34. #34
    Can Tree Member
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    I think it's Grief, not Change

    Quote Originally Posted by sirbikesalot
    The seven phases of change:

    1) Shock and surprise
    2) Denial and refusal
    3) Rational understanding
    4) Emotional acceptance
    5) Exercising and learning
    6) Realization
    7) Integration
    You are on to something here, but I wonder if you are using the right model. I think that the boys are grieving. The Five Stages of Grief are:
    · Denial
    · Anger
    · Bargaining
    · Depression
    · Acceptance

    It's been going on for about a week now. Go back and look at Kendogg's first thread on the topic. Started off with denial, then when DT himself posted and eliminated any chance of it not being true, we went headlong into anger. Stayed there for most of the week, it seems.

    We are starting to see bargaining now ("can I still get a HL rear-end under warranty?").

    So why don't we all just fricking get on with it...get depressed, have a few frosty cold ones, and move on with life.

    Dudes...it's just a bike.
    Dad is sad.
    Very, very sad.
    He had a bad day.
    What a day Dad had!

  35. #35
    It's a Turner!
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    Yep, I agree - I think this model fits better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dad Man Walking
    You are on to something here, but I wonder if you are using the right model. I think that the boys are grieving. The Five Stages of Grief are:
    · Denial
    · Anger
    · Bargaining
    · Depression
    · Acceptance

    It's been going on for about a week now. Go back and look at Kendogg's first thread on the topic. Started off with denial, then when DT himself posted and eliminated any chance of it not being true, we went headlong into anger. Stayed there for most of the week, it seems.

    We are starting to see bargaining now ("can I still get a HL rear-end under warranty?").

    So why don't we all just fricking get on with it...get depressed, have a few frosty cold ones, and move on with life.

    Dudes...it's just a bike.
    I didn't just drink the koolaid, I stuck my head in the punchbowl.

  36. #36
    ... I guess you won't be
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    I come from an extensive MX backround, and I see so many allegories and similarities in the fretting over subtle design changes, it's quite eerie - it's like I am reliving the past!

    I believe there is nothing to worry about - it's all in the geometry of the frame that makes you either like your bike to a fault, or categorize it as a "well, it gets me from here to there ok" type of bike.....I dig the Turner geometry and will continue to buy their frames, just because they consistently turn out [near pun warning!] telepathic handling frames....I really don't know what all the belly-aching is all about, or warranted....

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