Help with 5 Spot handling characteristics

[Leprechaun]

I switched from an 08 5 Spot to a 11 DW 5 Spot about four months ago. So far the new model has improved the areas that I had hoped it would over the previous model but I am having trouble getting it to handle with the same level of confidence I had in the 08 model. I'll attach photo's of both bikes so you can see what the setups are.

My 08 handle with a ton of confidence. It was very stable feeling and always seemed to be planted with endless traction. It felt like it sagged into it's suspension a little more than the new model but that gave it a feel of riding in the bike rather than on the bike. Also, with the coil Pike fork up front, it seemed to really match the suspension performance of the rear shock well so the front and rear always felt in harmony while corning and interacting with the trail.

I haven't been able to get the same feel from the '11 5 Spot yet. Geometry is a bit different with the slacker head angle and slightly shorter top tube. I feel like I am riding on top of the bike more and can't seem to get the front and rear suspension to work in harmony yet. I have modified the rear with DCG's shims and that seemed to help a lot but still not ideal. Also, it feels like on the '11 model small changes in body weight front to back have a greater affect on the traction of the front and rear tire. It feels like I have to work harder to maintain my line while descending and cornering and I have far less confidence on the '11 than on the '08 model. The '11 feels much more nervous and traction feels more vague through corners. The only components that would affect handling that have changed from 08 to 11 are the frame and fork. I have tried to setup the stack height below the stem and the top tube effective length to be similar to what I had before but still can't replicate the feel.

What's the answer? Can anyone make some suggestions that will allow me to make my 5 Spot handle with confidence again? How do I get it to feel like it isn't so sensitive to front/back weight changes? I really would appreciate your help and suggestions.

Thanks

Bryan

[Mr Pink]

Is the fork only 140mm?i test rode a couple of dw spots with 140mm forks & did not like it as much as my old 08 spot.Rode a spot with a 150 float & loved the ride so got a 09,now on a 2011 spot with a talas 36,never drop the travel!

[kiwirider]

Your tyres seemed to have changed also (or the 08 is an old photo). I would get rid of the WTBs - especially up front, and replace with say 2.25 Nics or whatever suits your terrain. Are you able to borrow tyres for a trial? Less tyre pressure perhaps.

Also make sure you are running the correct shock sag. The DW needs more sag than the TNT Spot.

How many hours has the DW done? Might need to loosen up a bit.

[Leprechaun]

The fork is a Revelation RLT Ti with 150 mm of travel. I never change the travel even though it does have the 2 position feature (which I hear can be problematic). It seems that with the 150 mm fork and a lower external stack of about 10 mm with the headset, it should be roughly the same head tube angle as a 160 mm travel fork with an internal/zero stack headset. The Rev seems stout enough, at least the same as with the Pike I had on the 08 5 Spot. It's not nearly as plush as the coil Pike but it is close.

As far as the tires go. After that picture I ended up change the tires to the WTB Mutano Raptors for better rolling resistance. I loved that tire on the 08 5 Spot in Southern California. It always seemed to be able to find traction while corning when I thought it would fail. I road the 11 5 Spot with them the WTB's on for about 2-3 months in SoCal but never felt like I had as much faith mid corner as I did with the 08. Now I've moved up to Bremerton, WA where it is wet and slippery most of the time, especially now. I'am wanting to change tires and was considering something along the lines of a Minion up front but will have to look into the Nobby Nics too. I had been running the PSI with the WTB's at 40 psi down in SoCal but once up her have been at around 32-35 psi.

My rear shock sag is at 30% but will try bumping down to 35% as well as reducing the sag/ pressure in the Revelation as well to see if plusher is the way to go.

What changes can be made to the cockpit that would potentially help stabilize the ride? Or is this mostly an issue of geometry being slightly different and that I am still not accustomed to the sensitivity of the 11 5 Spot to body position change? I have noticed that I want to get lower while descending on the 11 5 Spot so maybe I need to invest in a seat dropper seatpost. That will be a whole other thread trying to find the right one of those probably.

Part of my frustration is that I went and tried a friends 10 Sultan and found it to be so much easier to ride my familiar trails than the 11 5 Spot that it was almost too easy. I wish I could get my 11 5 Spot to feel a little more like that Sultan and at least as stable feeling as the 08 5 Spot.

I guess I need to play around with suspension sag, different tires, and tire pressures. Also, maybe need to pick up a seat dropper but that costs so much that I'm hoping one of the other options will make the difference instead.

[therollex]

there was a thread somewhere with a quote when the DW were released... "the DW Flux is the old Spot, the DW Spot the old RFX" or so... so with this in mind maybe it will be different.

[cbussiere]

I've found that one of the consequences of the slacker head angle is that it brings the handlebars EVEN CLOSER to you than the numbers would suggest. Combine that with the shorter top tube and now you have a much shorter cockpit that does make it a bit harder to 'get into'.

I've been playing similar games, and I've found that flipping my stem to drop the bars and push them out a bit has helped. But this also has some strange handling issues so try it but it might not work for you.

Also make sure that you give the frame ~ 20-30hrs of riding to break in. The bushings get a little smoother after some time.

My guess is that you aren't used to the back of the bike fully recovering to the top of its travel when you are riding... that old spot with the Faux bar would definitely sit lower in its travel, and wouldn't move much when riding. This would result in a relaxed head angle and likely a more stable ride since it isn't jumping back up as much.

The DW linkage uses chain tension and linkage position to drive the suspension back up after a hit and when pedaling, so it will sit higher in its travel. If you are used to the more relaxed angles of your old sagged spot, you might consider an angleset or running the front fork a bit firmer and the rear shock a bit softer to relax the head angle.

I'd also try some more rebound damping in the rear shock, see if slowing it down helps?

[LncNuvue]

The Pike is stiffer and more confidence inspiring than a Revelation. I went from a Pike to a Rev and it took a few rides to adjust. If you're not running the correct sag and rebound setting then the bike will feel sketchy. Maybe try at least 17mm of sag or 30-35psi less than your ready to ride body weight in the shock, and 3 to 4 clicks of rebound. That will make the rear end feel very planted. I bet you'll be railing in no time.

[bobo_krkk_NIN]

Hmmmm. I went from a pushed and dialed 08 with a coil fox 140 to a stock '10 like yours with a Revelation 150 and from the start it felt great. I did have to run the Rev with a lot less air than what it says on the fork legs. I did take some time to dial in the rp23 with the right air pressure and rebound for my riding style.

Those mutanoraptors are dicey on the front in my experience, but that is not what your comments are about.

You don't mention your height or the sizes of each bike. If you are close to 5'11" and riding mediums then that might explain it as the 11s are a bit shorter. Maybe.

It also looks like your seat is all the way back on the 11 as opposed to farther forward on the 08.

Are your stems the same? It looks like it.

I have an 11 also the I only have one ride one. It felt good on the first ride before shoulder surgery. Another couple months and I will be tuning that one.

Your comments on the 10 sultan feeling good make me think that you are a bit more xc than am. The 09/10 are supposed to be steeper...

Good luck and report back.

Bob

[Leprechaun]

Sorry for not giving a little more info about myself and my bikes that might help with the recommendations/advise.

I am just under 6' tall and weigh 175 lbs. Both bikes are size Larges. The stem components on the bikes are the same except where there were compatibility issues, besides the forks and the frames of course.

The stem is 90 mm with 0 degrees of inclination. I don't really want to any longer of a stem as I would like this bike to stay on the AM side of handling, just with more stability than it has right now.

I attempted to make up for the loss in top tube length on the 11 by moving the saddle back as far as I could, which has helped but as was pointed out, the slacker head tube angle does seem to make it feel like a shorter cockpit even still.

I haven't changed the angulation of the bars or anything but have played with the stem height a bit, still not sure if I like where I'm at on that score. The head tube on the 11 is slightly longer plus I've added a longer fork.

I am very much interested in changing the tires due to the wet and slimy conditions I now find myself riding in here in the Pacific Northwest. Any good recommendations would be very welcome. Suggestions for winter and summer tires for the Bremerton area would be great. I still have the Nevegals so will swap out to them in the meantime.

I'll definitely try the shock adjustment recommendations to see if that will settle the chassis down. It may all just boil down to the suspension being out of harmony, with the front bucking against the back.

I would definitely agree that I am still trying to get used to the DW suspension characteristics. It is still a little weird to me that it rides so high in its stroke but will still absorb so much with ease. The 08 definitely didn't handle consecutive hits as well but it felt like it only had one personality whereas the 11 feels like it has two, the pedaling along at warp speed and then the DH bike descending ability. The problem I've been having is getting comfortable with the transition between the two characteristics on the trail and know just when it will make the change. This could be an issue with the RP23 not being the best rear shock for this suspension as it seems to have poor mid-stroke support. With the shims in place it has improved but I still wonder if it is a lost cause. However, with so many happy 5 Spot riders out there on the stock shock I think I need to spend some more time in the fine tuning department.

As far as the Sultan comparison goes, the trails I was riding (and had 7 years experience on) were largely trail bike/xc bike trails. What surprised me was on some of the faster downhill sections with fast corner transitions, the Sultan seemed to be a 'set it and forget it' corner initiation. It felt like it had a ton of mid-corner traction and like it was stuck in a berm that wasn't there. The 11 5 Spot with the way I had it set up felt like I was constantly having to make mid-corner corrections and adjustments. The feel wasn't as solid either, I couldn't tell exactly how much traction I had left before it was going to let go, which I did on my 08 and the Sultan.

Based on the feedback so far I am confident that I'll eventually get the 11 5 Spot to handle the way I hope/want it to, it's just going to take more time. I am so thankful for all the responses and helpful advise. Please keep it coming if you happen to think of any other things you guys have done to stabilize a bike of yours.

Thanks,
Bryan

[socalscott]

650b up front...lots of good things will happen.

[renoirbud]

This is interesting, I have to agree. I like riding my 09 better then my 07, but I was always more confident on the 07.

I have Talas 36 set at 160 (rode it at 130 and 160 on the TNT) and a 90mm zero rise stem (the 07 had a 90 mm 6 degree rise).

I am trying a 110mm with 12 degree drop soon.

[cbussiere]

Originally Posted by Leprechaun

I am just under 6' tall and weigh 175 lbs. Both bikes are size Larges. The stem components on the bikes are the same except where there were compatibility issues, besides the forks and the frames of course.
...

I am very much interested in changing the tires due to the wet and slimy conditions I now find myself riding in here in the Pacific Northwest. Any good recommendations would be very welcome. Suggestions for winter and summer tires for the Bremerton area would be great. I still have the Nevegals so will swap out to them in the meantime.

Two quick comments:

I am 6'3" and I ride an XL 11 Spot with a 100mm stem and it still feels short... you may consider a longer stem just to try it out to see if it helps... add a -5° and you might feel better...

Those tires (Mutano Raptors) suck Bees in the wet... really not good. Nevegals with STICK-E compound are really good for the wet/slimy conditions. Go large (2.35) as well... this will really add some confidence.

Personally, I REALLY like the new Continental Trail King 2.4's (UST specifically). They are SUPER sticky thanks to their special Black Chilli compound. VERY good in the wet and slimy like we have here in New England.

[turnerbikes]

The new frame is 7mm shorter than the old and with the HA slacker the same stem has more 'rise', so you must remove some spacers to get the top of the bar to top of seat the same 'drop'. This will not bring back your 7mm, but at least shorter TT will not be exaggerated with stem angle increase.

The slacker HA also makes it harder and different to steer the bike, actually the slacker a bike is the the less steering you do and the more leaning is required, but with the slacker HA you have to have your weight centered and a grippy tire.

+ 1 for the Trail Kings!

DT

[Leprechaun]

Originally Posted by turnerbikes

The new frame is 7mm shorter than the old and with the HA slacker the same stem has more 'rise', so you must remove some spacers to get the top of the bar to top of seat the same 'drop'. This will not bring back your 7mm, but at least shorter TT will not be exaggerated with stem angle increase.

The slacker HA also makes it harder and different to steer the bike, actually the slacker a bike is the the less steering you do and the more leaning is required, but with the slacker HA you have to have your weight centered and a grippy tire.

+ 1 for the Trail Kings!

DT

This is why I buy Turner bikes! Where else are you going to get setup advice from the guy that designed the bike in the first place? Thanks Dave for taking the time to help me sort this out, I really appreciate it and am very impressed!

I'll go ahead and lower the stem height and see how that goes. It's interesting that the slacker the head angle the more challenging the steering/handling can become. I've been under the wrong impression and was actually thinking that I needed to make the bike slacker to increase that stable, on rails feel.

I've changed the front tire over to the Kenda Nevegals at 2.35 Sticky, since that is what I've got at home. I'll see how that goes and if I'm still not super stoked then I'll have to try a new tread, Trail Kings for sure. I think I'll also soften things up in the front and the back suspension as well as slow down my rebound a tad to see if that makes me feel more planted. It might also lower the front a little and reduce the head angle slightly which might make a difference too.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be able to test this hypothesis for three days as I have to work, bummer!

Keep the suggestions coming if you've found things that have made you have that moment of realization while riding where you know you can do no wrong and are just ripping.

Thanks,
Bryan

[DRIDE]

Originally Posted by Leprechaun

This is why I buy Turner bikes! Where else are you going to get setup advice from the guy that designed the bike in the first place? Thanks Dave for taking the time to help me sort this out, I really appreciate it and am very impressed!

I'll go ahead and lower the stem height and see how that goes. It's interesting that the slacker the head angle the more challenging the steering/handling can become. I've been under the wrong impression and was actually thinking that I needed to make the bike slacker to increase that stable, on rails feel.

I've changed the front tire over to the Kenda Nevegals at 2.35 Sticky, since that is what I've got at home. I'll see how that goes and if I'm still not super stoked then I'll have to try a new tread, Trail Kings for sure. I think I'll also soften things up in the front and the back suspension as well as slow down my rebound a tad to see if that makes me feel more planted. It might also lower the front a little and reduce the head angle slightly which might make a difference too.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be able to test this hypothesis for three days as I have to work, bummer!

Keep the suggestions coming if you've found things that have made you have that moment of realization while riding where you know you can do no wrong and are just ripping.

Thanks,
Bryan

Disclaimer: You may be cornering master.. if so disregard the following statement..

I wouldn't say it's "harder" to steer. It's just a different method with slacker bikes. Lean the bike, not the rider as opposed to steer-point the tire where you want to go on steeper HAs. Not to say the lean the bike method can't be done on steeper HA bikes, it just doesn't come naturally as you can kind of rely on the quick steering of the bike instead.. I guess in summary slack bikes take a bit more input to get to the transition point of turning.

Try just riding down the street with the bike vertical. Push your inside handlebar away from the direction you want to turn. (if you want to turn left, push your left hand away from you/pull your right hand towards you.) You'll notice the center of the bike leans and you actually turn left. (The bike actually rolls over on the tire due to it's round profile..) You will notice that your tire never really passes over center.. you just end up finding a sweet spot. The more you push the tighter/faster you corner.

Betterride Mountain Bike School, Mountain Bike Camps, coaching by Betterride does a very good job of explaining this and i highly recommend taking one of their camps. Watch the first bit of this video here, hopefully it shows what I'm talking about (it won't really click until you do it yourself though):

BetterRide camp - YouTube

I would also say the shorter stem will help. If you think of your stem length as an input ratio a longer stem ends up giving you a higher ratio (faster) input. A shorter stem tends to make your inputs a bit slower and more precise. There is some bi product to this based on where your body weight is no positioned, but I think the input ratio far overcomes this.

Also consider you are riding completely different terrain than before.. What effect do you think this has? Is the terrain you are riding now more slippery than before?

Last thing I would say is make sure to change 1 thing at a time. Keep it scientific. You don't want to end up changing 2 things at once and have them counteract each other. Then you'll have no idea which change had what effect.

[rmac]

I started off on my Spot with a 2010 Fox Vanilla 32 (TA) and had all kinds of handling issues (coming off an 04 Burner). I switched to a 160 Lyrik (coil) switched my stem upside down and handling issues went away for me. The anti-squat of the DW link changes things dramatically from the squat of the old HL/TNT. Compensating for it (while still benefiting) takes some time. Not suggesting your Rev is insufficient, plenty of guys seem to do well with it.

I had two main problems with the smaller fork:
1. It never matched the plushness of the rear – shouldn’t have messed me up as much as it did – psychological, I guess.
2. On off-camber single track I was constantly (constantly) adjusting body position to stay stable. (This was really annoying)
Both of these were resolved with the Lyrik. In many ways the Lyrik is too much fork for the trail riding I do but it changed the dynamics of the Spot so much, I wouldn’t consider going to a smaller fork.

Hope this helps.

[Leprechaun]

Originally Posted by rmac

I started off on my Spot with a 2010 Fox Vanilla 32 (TA) and had all kinds of handling issues (coming off an 04 Burner). I switched to a 160 Lyrik (coil) switched my stem upside down and handling issues went away for me. The anti-squat of the DW link changes things dramatically from the squat of the old HL/TNT. Compensating for it (while still benefiting) takes some time. Not suggesting your Rev is insufficient, plenty of guys seem to do well with it.

I had two main problems with the smaller fork:
1. It never matched the plushness of the rear – shouldn’t have messed me up as much as it did – psychological, I guess.
2. On off-camber single track I was constantly (constantly) adjusting body position to stay stable. (This was really annoying)
Both of these were resolved with the Lyrik. In many ways the Lyrik is too much fork for the trail riding I do but it changed the dynamics of the Spot so much, I wouldn’t consider going to a smaller fork.

Hope this helps.

Hey thanks for the replies guys.

I'm certainly no handling master, which is great because it keeps me heading out to have fun riding my bike and, hopefully, improving every time. I did get to experience the counter steer phenomenon on my 08 Turner 5 Spot, which made it a really fun bike to ride. It's great that I've been fortunate enough to experience both of these frames because they are truly fantastic bikes! I haven't found the sweet spot for handling with the 11 5 Spot but am sure it will happen with time.

I can definitely relate to the feeling of having to constantly adjust my body position in certain types of corners to stay on line and stable. While it does make for an exciting ride and line changes are instantaneous, it can make things a little tense at times.

I'm curious about the amount of head tube angle difference between a 150 mm fork with a tapered head tube and subsequent external headset bottom cup versus a 160 mm fork with a straight head tube and zero stack headset. Most of the builds with 160 mm forks seem to have the zero stack headset. It can't be that much different, so is the head angle that much different? I hope it doesn't come to buying a new/different fork because I'm not sure I can get the wife behind me on that one.

As Dave mentioned before about making sure the top of the handle bars are even with the seat, are there any more setup rules that you guys know of that are fundamental necessities for good handling bikes? It makes me curious about these pro riders that switch between manufacturers and how they can tweak their bikes to handle the way they want to every time even though their new bikes are so different from their old ones. Obviously they are just fantastic riders, but there must be a formula they follow to get things rolling and then customize things here and there.

I sure most, if not all, of my concerns would be solved by simply riding my ass off as often as possible... and maybe some different tires.

[LncNuvue]

Originally Posted by Leprechaun

I'm curious about the amount of head tube angle difference between a 150 mm fork with a tapered head tube and subsequent external headset bottom cup versus a 160 mm fork with a straight head tube and zero stack headset.

I had a Revelation 150 with external HS cup and went to a Fox 36 with inset lower HS cup. The HA went from 67.5 to 66.5. And the BB went from 13.7 to 13.75. The difference in total axle to crown height including the lower headset cups is only 6mm if you measure a Revelation (529), it's taller than the 32 Fox 150 (521). Somehow it slackened the bike 1* according to my magnetic angle finder. I know a couple others found the same 66.5* HA with a 160 fork and inset HS.

Originally Posted by Leprechaun

As Dave mentioned before about making sure the top of the handle bars are even with the seat, are there any more setup rules that you guys know of that are fundamental necessities for good handling bikes?

I'm not sure about that 'rule'. My bars are probably 2" below my saddle when it's at full climbing height. I couldn't imagine having my handlebars that high.

[turnerbikes]

I did not mean 'even' sorry. I meant that the distance between bar and seat were the same from one bike to the next. I also don't think you need to slide the seat back to compensate for TT length decrease, as that takes weight off the front wheel. By getting the 'drop' the same and getting your weight back where it was with the old bike your weight will move onto the front wheel making it bite better.

Great advice and links DRide. I can learn from that!

[DRIDE]

Thanks DT.

I just (20mins ago) traded my beloved RFX in for a 2012 Spot. Psyched to try out the new DW link bikes.

I rode a friends Ironhorse several years ago and had a hard time shaking how well it rode from my head. They were just really lacking in build quality and customer support. Getting Turner quality and design smarts with one of the best suspension designs out there is a definite win in my book!

[Leprechaun]

Thanks for clearing that up Dave. Sadly, I didn't do much in the way of measurements with my old frame/setup to then translate the positioning over to the new frame. I'm wishing I had taken more time with the transition but as soon as the frame came I couldn't help myself and just swapped everything over.

I was wondering if anyone could comment on what difference a change in handle bars might make to improving the stability/feel of my bike. Currently I have a low rise Easton EA70 Monkey Lite XC carbon handle bar. I believe the width is at 685 mm. How would a flat bar affect the handling of an 11 5 Spot? Also, would widening the bars stabilize the ride more and make me feel like I'm more stretched out and maybe compensate a little for the 7 mm loss in top tube length? If anyone could offer some feed back on the various handle bar options out there and how they can (and actually do affect the handling of an 11 5 spot based on real experience) affect the handling of a bike that would be great!

Thanks

[schlim]

I had a horst link Six Pack/RFX and swapped everything over to my DW 5 Spot. The Pack had a setback seatpost, 70mm 0 deg stem, and 660mm bars. The top tube was something like 24.4" or so.

The Spot is a 23.6 top tube and I ended up going to a zero offset setpost. The 70mm stem and the 660mm bars weren't a good setup for me. I needed a little more bite over the front and ended up going with a 90mm 0deg stem, and a 725mm Race Face SixC carbon bar with a 10mm spacer under the stem.

I also ran the neg pressure on the Revelation fork a little high to keep things fairly soft up front to match the rear and lower the ride height a hair. The matchup with the rear shock was about right when I tuned the rp23 to 15mm of sag or so and then took out a just few PSI until the o-ring was nearly bottomed out at the end of a normal ride for me. If there was still 10mm of unused travel on the shock, that was too much pressure and the bike rode a little more harshly over square edged stuff as a result. Don't worry about letting the bike sit into its travel a bit more, the DW link stiffens things up nicely for climbing. I didn't do the DGC mod because I didn't feel the need for it on this bike.

This setup worked for me and ended up being super stable.

[Leprechaun]

Thanks for the recommendations. Wider bars will be on my list of things to try out if I can't sort things out with different tires and different fork and shock pressures. I have a dual position Revelation so don't really have the flexibility to change the negative pressure. I've heard that you can swap out the two step mechanism for a dual air mechanism which may be a good idea too.

Seems like you had an even greater reduction in top tube length than I did. It's very encouraging that you've been able to adapt your DW 5 Spot to handle the way you want it to even though it is such a different design and geometry. I'm planning on getting a ride in today so I'll have to make some changes and see what the results are. First up will be softening the pressures and have changed to the Nevegal front tire. We'll see, but I'm excited to hear positive feed back and success stories.

[Leprechaun]

So I ended up riding this last Saturday and man was it great!

I changed the front tire to Kenda Nevegal 2.35, moved my saddle forward as Dave recommended, lower the pressure a bit in both the front and the rear, and put both the front and rear rebound at 6 off from full open. There was another thing I did that I can't believe I didn't think of before. Dave had mention how the stem on the 11 would be at a greater angle due to the slacker geometry which makes perfect sense, but I hadn't ever adjusted the position of the handlebars in the stem. So I rolled them forward to compensate for the change in head angle. Man what a bone head mistake to make but boy did these changes make a difference. The bike feels so much more confidence inspiring now but still has the face/fun trail bike feel that makes for a playful and involving ride. Huge improvement! I'm going to keep dialing in the handling but I'm gaining a new found appreciation for this bike and how versatile and potent it is.

GREAT BIKE!!!

[VegasWind]

This has probably been the best thread I have read on 5 spot DW handling. I have to say I am a little freaked. This is my first full suspension coming from a hard tail and still haven't had a chance to ride it besides up and down the street. This Saturday will be its maiden voyage on the trail, and I think all my answers are in here. Just the quick spin I had, I noticed a huge difference in my positioning and confidence on maneuvering. It'll be interesting, hopefully I fall right into a groove. Thanks