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Thread: HammerSchmidt !

  1. #1
    Team Sanchez
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    HammerSchmidt !

    I had my first ride on the new internal gear system this morning and I have some thoughts on it.
    First of it looks good. When I first saw the HammerSchmidt at Interbike I thought it looked much smaller in person that in the pics I had seen. It is smaller in diameter but wider than you would think.
    Second. It is not heavy. The ride this morning has a 20 min climb to start and I made it up to the top without too much trouble. This climb wears me out every time.
    Third. Without the chain putting tension on the rear suspension it kicks butt on the choppy down hill. The rear end felt more active and it tracked better. Its SCIENCE !

    Here are some pic to go with my thoughts
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    How do you like the engagement? I think I read somewhere the pawl system essentially negates a good rear hub....any truth to this? Nice HL btw..

    Buzz

  3. #3
    Flyin Canine
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    That third comment I am not clear on. Do you mean to say that the chain is not engaged if you are not pedaling and therefore a bike that has a chainstay that lengthens during suspension movement is no longer felt at the crank?

    Also benefit #4 it's easier to clean around the pivot area.

    Lastly, does not having a lower guide pulley cause a lot of chain slap noise to come back?

  4. #4
    Team Sanchez
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    It's kind of interesting. The one thing that struck me at Interbike was that it's like having 2 free hubs. When you pedal backwards, the chain doesn't move. So what Naked was saying about the rear end feeling more active could essentially be true. There is no chain torque as rear suspension cycles. Naked made the comment that he could hear the front pawl system ratcheting as he was banging thru the chop. One additional comment: the throw on the lever is much shorter than on a traditiaonl FD shifter, which is pretty nice. Shifts are crisp and immediate.

    As for the comment about the front pawl system negating a 120 or 108 engagement rear hub.....that has to be true, but so far, that is the only down side I can see to the HS.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz
    How do you like the engagement? I think I read somewhere the pawl system essentially negates a good rear hub....any truth to this? Nice HL btw..

    Buzz
    Engagement is instant. I was using the HS for most of my shifting. I don't know if this is how I will be riding it all the time or just cus its new.

  6. #6
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    shanedawg. What El C said.

  7. #7
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    I'd pass just based on the Q factor, not to mention the whatever percentage loss of pedaling juice coming out of a planetary drive.

    If anyone puts this on an über-efficient DW bike, I'm gonna laugh.

    Just sayin'

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    Did you have to face the bottom bracket? I saw in the instructions that you need to have a flat BB shell, to the tabs, but my Highline has a small lip. I am in the process of building my new Highline, where did you get your HS? is it the AM or FR?

    Thanks,
    Ryan.

  9. #9
    Rolling
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    I don't understand how the chain can put any torque on the rear suspension, the point of engagement on the crank is at the pivot and it's a faux bar stay. Thus, the torque is zero.

    Another clear benefit is log clearance.

  10. #10
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    Nice write-up on the HammerSchmidt here:

    http://www.competitivecyclist.com/mo...hmidt.920.html

  11. #11
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    I don't know much about planetary gears and such.........what I DO know is that Naked stomped the 25' money booter with ease this morning on his HS enhanced HL!

    Oh and it was pretty cool that he shift while we were waiting to hit a move and without any revolutions he was in that gear, impressive!
    I like bikes.

  12. #12
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAKED1
    Second. It is not heavy. The ride this morning has a 20 min climb to start and I made it up to the top without too much trouble. This climb wears me out every time.

    Third. Without the chain putting tension on the rear suspension it kicks butt on the choppy down hill. The rear end felt more active and it tracked better. Its SCIENCE !
    Hmmmm, I'm not sure how your fitness level helps us determine the weight of this product.

    More importantly, how would a stationary Hammer**** system have any less "tension" than a stationary standard crankset? The only thing you could be referring to is the fact that the lack of instant engagement allows your feet to move slightly in both directions(clockwise & counter) without applying pressure to the chain and therefore the suspension remains unaffected. I could get the same affect with a crappy wtb rear hub.

    That said, I still like the concept. I'm not too worried about "drag" in the planetary gear since you don't climb in that gear, and you coast when it's pointed downhill in the chunk.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman

    Another clear benefit is log clearance.
    what are logs?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryana
    Did you have to face the bottom bracket? I saw in the instructions that you need to have a flat BB shell, to the tabs, but my Highline has a small lip. I am in the process of building my new Highline, where did you get your HS? is it the AM or FR?

    Thanks,
    Ryan.

    Yes the BB was faced back when I built up the Highline. I got the HS here from my LBS and its the AM version.

  15. #15
    rr
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    Doesn't chain torque only apply when your actually pedaling?, if the chain was moving forward in the hammerschizzle then you were not pedaling and it was probably more a function of the freehub moving with the rear wheel since the chain is no longer stationary while not pedaling.

    If there was less chain torque with the system Sram's marketing would of been all over it like stink on sh!t.

  16. #16
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    So.........

    Is it all good? Is this the next thing? Why would a rider NOT want this on their bike? LIke maybe cost vs. what it brings? Inquiring Burners want to know.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  17. #17
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Doesn't chain torque only apply when your actually pedaling?
    You could have chain torque if the suspension compresses, the chain shortens and the rear hub ratchets. Thus even though you are not pedaling, you are resisting the lengthening of the chain when the suspension rebounds.

    However, I wouldn't think this is the case based on the reasoning in my earlier post above. I can't see the chain shortening on a Faux bar with the pivot on the chainline. But then again, perhaps the chainline isn't really lined up and the rear is ratching up some pawls.

    I would love to see this in a slow motion movie. Maybe since the crank can ratchet, the cassette actually has enough friction to rotate forward during bouncy DH riding-- like you allude to.

    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    Is it all good? Is this the next thing? Why would a rider NOT want this on their bike? LIke maybe cost vs. what it brings? Inquiring Burners want to know.
    -cost
    -friction
    -wear and thus expensive repair
    -weight
    -gear range limitations.

    I've been watching this. It's seems like a great design, especially for a single pivot bike. Plus, combine it with a internal geared rear hub, who knows.
    Last edited by lidarman; 02-03-2009 at 04:12 PM.

  18. #18
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    Naked - which rear der are you running? I see it's SRAM, but can't tell which model and cage length. Looks to be at least mid-cage - one of the things I am excited about with HS is running a short-cage rear der, the less that thing sticks out there for me to bash, the better. And which version did you get, FR or AM?

    I'm gonna be watching you for ride reports, I am interested in the HS for my Highline - but I'm not going for early adoption.
    "Cram as much pleasure into life, and rail against the pain you have to suffer as a result" - Shane MacGowan

  19. #19
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    Mac, I have a mid cage now and plan on replacing it with a short soon. Its the AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAKED1
    Yes the BB was faced back when I built up the Highline. I got the HS here from my LBS and its the AM version.
    Would stacking washers on the ISCG tabs be an alternative to facing the BB down?

  21. #21
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    how would this work on a vpp or dwl bike?

  22. #22
    JMH
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    I want a Hammerschmidt, but I gotta say my right ankle bone dies a little inside when I look at that top view.

  23. #23
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    I think its funny that a 20 minute climb makes you tired.

    NUT UP! OR get your SKORT!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwheezy
    how would this work on a vpp or dwl bike?
    Straight from the horses mouth...


  25. #25
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    any climb can make you tired..........it depends on the pace you keep up it...........but apparently you're a hardcore SS guy so every climbs blazing fast, and yet you're unfazed cause you're so gnarly right? How come you can never say anything without it being demeaning and derogatory?
    I like bikes.

  26. #26
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by toHELLuRIDE
    I think its funny that a 20 minute climb makes you tired.

    NUT UP! OR get your SKORT!
    why would you come here to only say mean-spirited things like that? what are you trying to accomplish? for the average turner owner, to even spend the energy to think about riding a bike is quite an accomplishment, let alone climb a whopping 1200 seconds, granted there are probably rest stops during that time but still...

  27. #27
    Roy
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    So nut up on the climbs and nut up on the message board slams?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    I want a Hammerschmidt, but I gotta say my right ankle bone dies a little inside when I look at that top view.
    Time to switch to 510 hightops

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    So nut up on the climbs and nut up on the message board slams?
    Just a little harmless internet hazing.
    I have a lot of respect for the high flying sanchez fellas.
    Not my fault he left the door open for a little bashing. Its all out of fun.

    Only one of my bikes is a SS. Part time hardcore.

  30. #30
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by toHELLuRIDE
    Just a little harmless internet hazing.
    I have a lot of respect for the high flying sanchez fellas.
    Not my fault he left the door open for a little bashing. Its all out of fun.

    Only one of my bikes is a SS. Part time hardcore.
    on behalf of all the homers and past homers, your apology is accepted, just dont let it happen again. this is serious stuff and it really not cool to post your opinion on a public internet forum if it may hurt feelings

  31. #31
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    on behalf of all the homers and past homers, your apology is accepted, just dont let it happen again. this is serious stuff and it really not cool to post your opinion on a public internet forum if it may hurt feelings
    Yes, we wouldn't want Team sanchez to be butt hurt

  32. #32
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    screw you guys.......I admit I'm easily provoked, I need to chill out and take things with a grain of salt.
    I like bikes.

  33. #33
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    Just take a play from CactusCorn's playbook

    Quote Originally Posted by wasea04
    screw you guys.......I admit I'm easily provoked, I need to chill out and take things with a grain of salt.
    Practice typing "you guys suck". It works for him I've got my occasional detractors too and I've learned to just not reply. Works for me.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  34. #34
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasea04
    screw you guys.......I admit I'm easily provoked, I need to chill out and take things with a grain of salt.
    its ok to be sensitive, dont let anybody tell you otherwise

  35. #35
    JMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanedawg
    Time to switch to 510 hightops
    I wear road shoes with speedplay pedals.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    I wear road shoes with speedplay pedals.
    Dude! Lay off the speedplays!


  37. #37
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    Ya'll need to grow some skin.


    Ha ha ha.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    I'd pass just based on the Q factor, not to mention the whatever percentage loss of pedaling juice coming out of a planetary drive.

    If anyone puts this on an über-efficient DW bike, I'm gonna laugh.

    Just sayin'
    I think that DW said that the HS and DW Link were not a good match, something about the chainline. I'm not engineer.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoPawn
    Would stacking washers on the ISCG tabs be an alternative to facing the BB down?
    Not sure you'd want to do that. Possible chain-line issues aside, I would think that the purpose of the mounting hardware is to squeeze the two machined surfaces together and generate sufficient static friction across the entire facing surfaces to resist the rotating forces that the HS is generating, thereby transferring them directly to the frame.

    Or something like that...

    But if you used spacers, you are basically relying on the mounting hardware (the bolts) to be the primary (or only) points in the system that are transferring the load to the frame. Not sure that's what the bolts or the ISCG tabs by themselves were designed to do.
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  40. #40
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    Facing the BB is KEY with the HS. KEY.

    You must be sure the ISCG tab face and the BB axis are perpendicular. If this is not done the misalignment could cause odd wear.

    When set up properly these things will take YEARS of abuse. the Ring drive has 108 machined teeth in it and the whole thing rides on a race holding 40 bearings.

    The cost is high but these bad larrys take a huge amount of time to actually manufacture. Combine the amazingly tight tolerances and the the fact that each unit takes over 23 minutes to actually assemble...in mass production terms, that is, well forever LOL.



    IIRC Q factor is only 2mm wider than a normal setup (External bearing Stylo etc)...it does look really wide, but it's an illusion as you are thinking the bash etc is a larger diameter. It is way smaller than you think.

    I love my HS, but it does feel heavy (I have the FR/DH setup)...but that is the price I pay for lightning-fast shifts and tons of clearance. I went into it with a blank slate...I wasn't someone who thought it wouldn't work or that it would be the new Holy Grail of shifty bits. I wasn't someone who just shelled out $700 for it. It was given to me. Frankly, I think it's an answer to a question I never asked. Like gearbox bikes I see no huge boon to cycling. I like 1x9 and I love my SS, but this system works and it works well even on my single pivot. It's a neat idea with a clean execution. I like how quickly it shifts and I like that I can be at the bottom of a nasty climb and just hit the trigger...no waiting for the chain to drop or the ramps and pins. Would I drop over $700 for the setup? No. No way man. Do I like it? yeah. What don't I like? getting used to new ratios. I normally run a 32 up front and 11-34 out back...This has me shifting more up front just to find my sweet spot. Likely find a groove the more I ride it.

    That said, if you're looking to pick one up, I highly recommend it, but be sure to read the directions very well and face the BB. SRAM will have a specific facing tool available soon.
    unityhandbuilt

  41. #41
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    [QUOTE=tozovr]Facing the BB is KEY with the HS. KEY.
    QUOTE]

    that is what is being said over and over in every video you watch, and every article to read. BUT it's hard to do (or get done) when the few facing tools (from SRAM) are still unobtainium.

    I found it extremely dissapointing that the untils are already shipping and people are buying them already - yet no shops have the ISCG facing tools.

    two thumbs down from me..

  42. #42
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    [QUOTE=ThePunisher]
    Quote Originally Posted by tozovr
    Facing the BB is KEY with the HS. KEY.
    QUOTE]

    that is what is being said over and over in every video you watch, and every article to read. BUT it's hard to do (or get done) when the few facing tools (from SRAM) are still unobtainium.

    I found it extremely dissapointing that the untils are already shipping and people are buying them already - yet no shops have the ISCG facing tools.

    two thumbs down from me..
    It's a supplier issue evidently. It's a bummer but any shop worth their salt should be able to do a good Chase/face.
    unityhandbuilt

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rzozaya1969
    I'm not engineer.
    That fact doesn't stop anyone else here, don't let it stop you!






    oh yea ... it looks flexy.
    Nick.

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