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  1. #1
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    faux bar, four bar - what's the diff?

    I still count four bars that move independently of one another, so what's the difference between the two? Chain stay, seat stay, rockers, shock. Am I missing something here?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    I still count four bars that move independently of one another, so what's the difference between the two? Chain stay, seat stay, rockers, shock. Am I missing something here?
    A while back I was curious about this myself and while doing research I found this definition of the Horst link off the Competive Cyclist website to be pretty helpful. A snippet:

    "...the axle is on the seatstay and the seatstay is "decoupled" from the suspension. A Horst link design is often referred to as a "fully active" system, meaning it's free to compress and rebound at all times...Not only is the suspension independent from chain forces under pedaling loads, but it allows you to maintain an efficient pedal stroke since the suspension action has no effect on it."

    It appears to me that the number of "bars" is the same, just the location of the one link differs. What's implied (or at least left unsaid) is that a non-Horst will not exhibit these same desirable charecteristics. I'm not starting that up again, though. I'm sure the well built "faux-bars" (Turner, Ventana) pedal and brake just as well (or at least similar to) Horst link bikes. But what do I know, I ride a hardtail.

    Patrick
    Last edited by PCinSC; 05-11-2006 at 07:53 AM.

  3. #3
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    I share your desire of "not starting that up again", and I don't want to bring up the ride characteristic differences, or lack thereof, of each. I'm just trying to figure out what makes the four bars of a four bar a four bar, and what makes the four bars of a faux bar a faux bar. I'm still counting four different bars on both designs.

    According to that definition, an HL is a type of four bar, and this means the HL and TNT are both four bar suspensions.
    Last edited by royta; 05-10-2006 at 11:52 PM.

  4. #4
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    A four bar has the rear wheel seperated from the main triangle by two pivots, while on a faux bar the rear wheel is only seperated from the main triangle by a single pivot. A faux bar is a single pivot bike with a linkage driven shock.

    VPP and DW link are also four bars.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    According to that definition, an HL is a type of four bar, and this means the HL and TNT are both four bar suspensions.
    I think that this is the case. I also think the word "faux" is used in a derogatory way, implying that the non-horst four bar is "less real" than (and inferior to) the Horst link four bar. Although I've seen the TNT suspension referred to (on this forum) as a single pivot. So now I'm a little confused.

    It's hard to even talk about this without stirring up the pot, isn't it? Oh, well.


    Patrick

  6. #6
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Perhaps I should clarify. Look at the pivot closest to the cranks. That is pivot #1. It attaches a swingarm (usually the chainstay) to the main front triangle on every suspension bike. Now on a single pivot AND faux bar, the rear wheel is attached directly to the swingarm. All the other "bars" in a faux bar are there simply to add structure and to provide a linkage to attach the rear end to the shock (to drive the shock). What is generally referred to as a single pivot bike does not have a linkage driven shock (think of a Heckler). A faux bar may sometimes be called a single pivot simply because it only has one (pivot pivot #1) between the cranks and the place the rear wheel attaches.

    On a four bar, there would be an additional pivot before you get to the rear wheel. In the case of a Horst link bike, you would find a Horst link. On VPPs and DW links, the second pivot is at the end of a tiny swing link near the bb just like the pivot #1 from above.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  7. #7
    long standing member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Perhaps I should clarify...
    I was gonna ask for clarification, but I didn't want to seem like a dumbass. I'm clear now. Thanks for anticipating my question. Hell, maybe even royta got his question answered.

    Patrick

  8. #8
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    Royta
    Yes you are right, both 4-bar and faux-bar linkages have 4 distict parts but as Cheezy has pointed out the big difference is in where the links are located.

    Also from what I remember the faux-bar name was used to differentiate between a 'true' 4-bar linkage and bikes that had a seat stay pivot instead of a HL. As to whether it was bad or worse than a true 4-bar with a HL it has always depended on the application. Certain people have always claimed one suspension design superior to the others, but there have always been a few well designed alternatives out there that have defied being pigeon-holed and have been great riding bikes.

  9. #9
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    To clarify a little more, the main difference is axle path.
    With a "faux bar" and a "single pivot" the rear axle is on the same member that is fixed to pivot #1. As a result it can only move in a circle around that pivot. The rest of the "faux bar" linkage can be used to determine compression ratio throughout the travel and shock placement.
    With a Horst Link the axle rides on a member that is between the chainstay and the rockers. Its motion can be tuned to be straight up or back by the position of the axle relative to pivot #2.
    The main point with TNT feeling the same as the HL is that the location of pivot #2 on a HL has gotten pretty close to the axle. The difference in where the axle is throughout its travel is the small difference DT pointed out when the TNT came out. It was something like 1.5mm, I really forget.
    Big hoopy.
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  10. #10
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    Thanks for the explanation everybody.

  11. #11
    Just Grin and HUCK it...
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    We'll have all our questions answered by TE shortly. Word has it that he's hired an "independent analyst" to create CAD models of every type of suspension on the market today and put them up to his ICT to show everybody why their bike sucks. He's planning on putting it on his website shortly.
    MCM# 2007.1

  12. #12
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    That's a good idea, because we all want to see how our bikes suck.

  13. #13
    Knollician
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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    That's a good idea, because we all want to see how our bikes suck.

    This says it all: watch the video if you haven't yet seen it.

    http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm

    All I know, is I want one!!! (j/k) Too bad TE is so obsessed with himself. He has very poor communication skills as well. Seems like he was digging to find the right choice of words at times. That has got to be one of the most retarded videos I have seen.
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  14. #14
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    I especially liked the use of the word "entrust". And we "entrust" that the tires will not leave the dirt, ever, or your warranty is null & void.

    "It is, umm, truly one of the only *looks at clock* fully active designs that is as energy efficient as it is, that's available today." - Tony Ellsworth


    All I know, is that I had a bike with evil demonic dragon eyes, I would be a much faster rider.

  15. #15
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    Specialized was the one that started the four bar vs "faux bar" thing stating the absence of the FSR link somehow reduces the number of suspension members. They're great at marketing since all of you actually bought into it at one time or another.

    Does anyone remember how GT was calling the I-drive a four bar early into its life cycle?

    And to those speaking about Hellsworth- Guess who's viewing this thread right now?

  16. #16
    The Ancient One
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRocker
    To clarify a little more, the main difference is axle path.
    With regard to braking behavior, that's not entirely true. The main difference is in how much the wheel and caliper carrying link rotates with respect to the main frame. That's in addition to the difference in axle path.

    The amount the wheel carrying link rotates also matters during pedaling, but only during the special condition where the tire momentarily loses traction (or the ground shifts beneath it). The rest of the time, pedaling behavior is determined by the relation between the chain line, the axle path, and the ground line.
    "Don't criticize what you can't understand."

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    And to those speaking about Hellsworth- Guess who's viewing this thread right now?

    What is the almighty's mtbr handle?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    What is the almighty's mtbr handle?
    Ask and you shall receive....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jerk_Chicken; 05-11-2006 at 01:47 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Ask and you shall receive....
    Shut up!! Wow, I feel...honored?
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  20. #20
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I thought pecusick was just a Death Eater and not He Who Must Not Be Named himself...?

    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I thought pecusick was just a Death Eater and not He Who Must Not Be Named himself...?

    It's the belief, Tscheez-man. He's wearing the Nikes, so it's just as good as the real thing. Just ask Jayem----> as he's caught him several times.

  22. #22
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    Whoever that is then they are correct. Specialized

    started the Faux bar bullsh--. Just because they did not want another technology using that term without paying them but people cam up with another four bar design that differs from Specialized that works just as well as there own HL. Easy enough to figure out. You don't need to worry to much over it. Faux bar four bar same stuff. A little different design.

  23. #23
    Bike Hoor
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    Don't forget about the Lawill design.. which may be the truest four-bar design of the whole bunch. Seat stay AND chain stay pivot.. both in near proximity of the axle. A design still used in the Astrix line of bikes.
    Pedalling the goods since 2002.
    http://www.boutiquebikes.com

  24. #24
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    But doesn't AStrix claim their own designs that don't fall under the Lawill patents?

    The Lawill design does approximate automotive suspension turned around, but at the same time, HL four bar and non HL four bars with rockers do, too.

  25. #25
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    just a thought

    We've seen examples of the main pivot concentric with the crank axle. Has anyone ever put the rear pivot concentric with the rear wheel axle? yeah, it would require a thru axle type hub.

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