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  1. #1
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    dw turner: dw link or split pivot

    I didn't have time to read the dw turner threads 140+ responses. Does anyone know which design Turner is going to use?

    I looked at DW's website and the split pivot looks ripe for Turner, because he could use a zerk bushing system. Since Dave has been moving that pivot all over, I guess if Dave builds a model with a pivot at the axel than he is basically splitting the difference between a HL & a TNT. If you use the split pivot design, does this mean that you continue to use a the current single pivot with rockers design or an you use the dw linkages with this design.

    If Dave Turner uses the dw linkages that will also be cause for celebration. Iron Horse bikes were always equipped with junk shocks and forks. The Ibis bikes are said to ride a lot better than the "Pivot Mach series" according to my friend Ray who has ridden them at Sea Otter.
    Although he liked the Pivot 29 er quite a bit.

    I'd like to take the credit for being the first to suggest that Dave Turner consider designing a DW linkage bike. Although I consider myself a Turner loyalist, and love my Burner. I was castigated by the few, the proud, the 'old line homers' as a 'Troller'. To those Homers, who only drink koolaid , and who cast aspersions on view points other than their own ... SMD .

    CHEERS,


    KANE

  2. #2
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    In that thread, nobody from Turner bikes confirmed or denied anything about DW-Link suspension.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtr444
    In that thread, nobody from Turner bikes confirmed or denied anything about DW-Link suspension.
    If they don't deny it, it must be true.

  4. #4
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    Although it could well be true I highly doubt it.

    The reason for all the loyalists on this site is the simple strong low maintanince machines. I think DT going DW may lose some of the old faithfuls because of the added complexity. Still world wide sales would all shoot up massivly because of all the DW hype.

    Now I am not saying either is better. I just think that loyalty would go down, sales way up.

    I think he should just stick to the tried and true.

    Do I sound like an idiot?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    The Ibis bikes are said to ride a lot better than the "Pivot Mach series" according to my friend Ray who has ridden them at Sea Otter.
    Is that on account of Ibis' sub-atomic damping qualities ?
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    TLL
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    I didn't have time to read the dw turner threads 140+ responses. Does anyone know which design Turner is going to use?
    I believe that the consensus was that Turner would be using TNT.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Hadley rear hub service here and here.

  7. #7
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    I was wondering if maybe there is some truth to the rumor, but it has become incorrectly altered. I am thinking that it seems just as likely Ibis and Pivot will start using TNT. Why? Well, _dw pulled the dw-link license from Iron Horse. Why develop bikes with a suspension design that can be pulled willy nilly. Iron horse has their problems, but they weren't hurting dw-link at all. Heck, they put dw-link bikes on the radar! Some payback. And the dw-link bikes out there are good but for many riders not earth shattering -- more different than better. Instead, why not use TNT with its rider-informed, DT crafted evolution of a platform with proven performance, simple elegance, and unmatched durability? Welcome Ibis and Pivot to TNT!!

    Hey, makes sense to me.

  8. #8
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    Hey folks, I was wondering, it's been at least a day or two since we rehashed/revived and otherwise repeated otherwise debunked rumors in order to once again start another wild swing to the linkage du-jour
    Can anyone re-read one of the dozen other threads for me and then parahrase it to indicate just what I wanted to hear?



    All the websites and whitepapers in the world won't make a better MTB. AFAIK, no particular design is stomping all over the others in sales or consensus of rider opinions. The HL was supposed to, then ICT, VPP, Dope, Felt, *DW, Mastero, split pivot, FTW, and variouse SPs. Each have their buzz. Many do Something better than all the others but pretty much none do everything better than anything else.

    Notice there's no overwhelming flocking to any of them? The market is still just as diverse as it's always been.

    IMO the biggest contribution to the improvement of bikes is the decade+ refinement of existing designs by ppl who know better than to jump to the latest platform every other model year.

    Besides the hew and cry that'll come if/when DT changes platforms again will be rediculous. Particularly all the name calling and accusations of conspiracy and lies. Dog forbid people change their minds when something better does come along.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by frisky_zissou
    Still world wide sales would all shoot up massivly because of all the DW hype.

    Massively? Doh. DT needs to get going on it asap.

  10. #10
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    changes

    Hi, DT did post replies regarding the 2009 model line up. As I remember the RFX and Highline were to be discontinued in favour of a new freeride frame and the Spot was to remain the same apart from a sturdier head tube.
    There was no mention in his posts of different linkages.
    If DT was to use a dw link then he would have to purchase the rights. After the problems/hassle with the horst link (liscencing/patenting) and then proving TNT worked just as well I wonder if DT would be bothered about changing. If it aint broke!
    Thanks
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtr444
    In that thread, nobody from Turner bikes confirmed or denied anything about DW-Link suspension.
    On one of the threads somewhere a few weeks back, i read that derby lent out his personal Mojo to DT 4 a spin...
    After DT returns the bike he comments on how he was really impressed the DW ride qualities...
    DT may just have been acting politically correct or his wheels may be turnering...
    tread lightly...earth is our playground

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyerose123
    Hi, DT did post replies regarding the 2009 model line up. As I remember the RFX and Highline were to be discontinued in favour of a new freeride frame and the Spot was to remain the same apart from a sturdier head tube.
    There was no mention in his posts of different linkages.
    If DT was to use a dw link then he would have to purchase the rights. After the problems/hassle with the horst link (liscencing/patenting) and then proving TNT worked just as well I wonder if DT would be bothered about changing. If it aint broke!
    Thanks
    Skye
    i'm think n that DW will only license a DW-link 2 better the breed and a good example of that is Ibis and now Pivot...
    The probable cause of IH's loss of license is a contact not renewed because of less than perfect history...
    tread lightly...earth is our playground

  13. #13
    Paper or plastic?
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    I heard that DT would license the new single pivot linkage from Cannondale.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  14. #14
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    i am suprised i even replied to this kind of thread, but theres some incorrect stuff here.

    the highline goes next year, but the rfx stays, it will be modified to cover more model ground since the highline will be absent.

    you guys seriously think dt will use a dw link just because he commented one rides ok.?



    this is silly thinking
    Jesus Saves




  15. #15
    gravity curmudgeon
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    Bike industry rumors on forums are just another way of surviving the work day. Some rumors are more fun than others.

    Just the other day I heard that Spot bought Maverick. Oops. Turned out to be true. You just never know. That's part of the fun.

    BTW, in my own predictions of rumors in the cycling industry, I am 0 for 10,014.

    And, zilla, I sort of agree with you. I think the biggest improvement in mtbs over the last 10 years has been with the shocks and forks. That opened the door to a lot more designs and increased options for creative tweaking.

  16. #16
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    It seems like some undercover troll repost "Derby Said DT luvz DW*at Otter" every couple of days.

    Just because he didn't jump off the bike and barf is not a ringing endorsement or indication of change in direction. There is such a thing as professional respect of competing product.

    Derby posted like one line of his interpetation of DT's impression and went on for 2 paragraphs about why Derby likes it. As to vaguely suggest this was DT's thinking.

    BTW he posted it under an assumed name not sure why, but that's not the best of endorsements IMO.

    CDog, I think shocks definately have come a long way. Interestingly enough, I thinkd the Platform technology that revived a lot of lesser performing designs, allowed the designers to enhance their designs so well that a lot of ppl are now running away from platforms. Not just on the newer linkage designs even the old tried and true SP/Fauxbars trail riders seem to be wanting less and less platform. XC racers are a different story. Well maybe it's part improvement and part a change in mindset.

    I think as ppl get access to better shocks and have a better understanding of what they should be doing, it becomes more clear that a well tuned compression system is a LOT better than a platform.




    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Mark
    On one of the threads somewhere a few weeks back, i read that derby lent out his personal Mojo to DT 4 a spin...
    After DT returns the bike he comments on how he was really impressed the DW ride qualities...
    DT may just have been acting politically correct or his wheels may be turnering...
    Well heck, I demo'ed a 29'er the other day. I told the salesman I was impressed with how the bike rolled, but I didn't sell what I have and run out and buy a 29'er just because "I was impressed" with some aspect of it.
    Do folks buy stuff based on being impressed or infatuated with an aspect of it?
    What a stupid question; of course they do. Most of us here are stupid americans.

    BTW, I demo'ed a 17 year old hooker from Hoboken once. Allthough she knew lots of tricks, I still decided not to sell the wife and buy the hooker.
    ****

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    BTW, I demo'ed a 17 year old hooker from Hoboken once. Allthough she knew lots of tricks, I still decided not to sell the wife and buy the hooker.
    Doh, think of the money you would have saved!

  19. #19
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    Both

    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    I didn't have time to read the dw turner threads 140+ responses. Does anyone know which design Turner is going to use?
    That's right; DT will use dw-link + split pivot design combined with 29" wheels and the latest carbon fibre subatomically damped technology to get the best of all. It will be one sweet bike that will climb with very little input from the rider (at least 110% efficiency).
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowdog
    Doh, think of the money you would have saved!
    The cost of the hooker's crack habit far exceeded my wife's wine habit. Plus, my wife is willing to help clean the house as well.
    ****

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowdog
    I think the biggest improvement in mtbs over the last 10 years has been with the shocks and forks. That opened the door to a lot more designs and increased options for creative tweaking.
    Dude, seriously... Shocks are such a crutch.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Dude, seriously... Shocks are such a crutch.
    darn it; I get rid of my GD now I have to get let go of my fullsus too?

    I guess I better start looking into those fully rigid ti bikes then...
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  23. #23
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    Nothing says CRUTCH like a Ti frame.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Well heck, I demo'ed a 29'er the other day. I told the salesman I was impressed with how the bike rolled, but I didn't sell what I have and run out and buy a 29'er just because "I was impressed" with some aspect of it.
    Do folks buy stuff based on being impressed or infatuated with an aspect of it?
    What a stupid question; of course they do. Most of us here are stupid americans.

    BTW, I demo'ed a 17 year old hooker from Hoboken once. Allthough she knew lots of tricks, I still decided not to sell the wife and buy the hooker.
    Hey i'm just have n fun with the DT and DW collaboration...
    I'm not go n out and change n my choice of rides either way
    tread lightly...earth is our playground

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Mark
    Hey i'm just have n fun with the DT and DW collaboration...
    I'm not go n out and change n my choice of rides either way
    Oh, in that case....


    PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST!!!!!!!!

    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    BTW, I demo'ed a 17 year old hooker from Hoboken once. Allthough she knew lots of tricks, I still decided not to sell the wife and buy the hooker.

    One of the classic lines from the Turner Forum. I LOVE THIS PLACE!!

  27. #27
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    Turner is gonna

    hook up with the Canfield Brothers for 2010.

  28. #28
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    Turner is gonna

    ...finally get that trans-gender surgery, and become Renny's hooker.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  29. #29
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    What I'd like to see, by xcguy

    I would like to see a 5" frame but with steeper geometry than my 5.5 Spot. 13 1/8" bottom bracket hght. Medium would have a 23 1/4" ETT--sorta like my Burner only with 5" of travel so I can run a Revelation on it at 130mm and not fokk up the designed angles. XC/AM oriented, not freeride angles. I bet I'm the only one here wanting this frame, yeah? Oh, yeah, this is a DW/split pivot thread so I'll say that I don't know anything about them so I'm not lusting for them.
    Last edited by xcguy; 05-19-2008 at 02:17 PM.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Oh, in that case....


    PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST!!!!!!!!


    HA "RU Serious?"
    tread lightly...earth is our playground

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    ...finally get that trans-gender surgery, and become Renny's hooker.
    No dice Alex. I've seen pics of DT. I don't care how nice a set of knockers you put on him; I ain't getting any part of my anatomy near him.
    ****

  32. #32
    Rolling
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    The rumor I heard was DT was going to make rigid full-suspension bike using patented suspension wheels where each spoke is a tiny pushed rp23.

  33. #33
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    Will it be made from carbon?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink
    Will it be made from carbon?
    nano-molecular carbon grown in Derby's underwear??
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I would like to see a 5" frame but with steeper geometry than my 5.5 Spot. 13 1/8" bottom bracket hght. Medium would have a 23 1/4" ETT--sorta like my Burner only with 5" of travel so I can run a Revelation on it at 130mm and not fokk up the designed angles. XC/AM oriented, not freeride angles. I bet I'm the only one here wanting this frame, yeah? Oh, yeah, this is a DW/split pivot thread so I'll say that I don't know anything about them so I'm not lusting for them.

    If you want to steepen up your spot, you can borrow my Push rockers, that way you can keep the 140 up front.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    The rumor I heard was DT was going to make rigid full-suspension bike using patented suspension wheels where each spoke is a tiny pushed rp23.
    You might have to be careful with that. There's prior art...

    http://www.google.com/patents?id=LSK...cle+suspension

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moto'n'PushBiker
    You might have to be careful with that. There's prior art...

    http://www.google.com/patents?id=LSK...cle+suspension
    I coulda guessed...my surprise is that it's circa 2006 and not 1896.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moto'n'PushBiker
    You might have to be careful with that. There's prior art...

    http://www.google.com/patents?id=LSK...cle+suspension
    Acht! another DW design!

    I agree with Lidar...it looks a century old.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  39. #39
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    Picture of split pivot.

    SPLIT-PIVOT's [concentric dropout pivot] is the heart of this new design. The [concentric dropout pivot] and Dave Weagle's engineering allow for performance features that no single pivot can duplicate.

    "SPLIT-PIVOT separates acceleration forces from braking forces in the suspension The system reduces excess suspension compression due to acceleration forces, and at the same time reduces excess compression due to braking forces.

    Braking neutrality can be tuned independently of acceleration characteristics, and leverage rate curves can be tuned to meet the needs of the application.

    SPLIT-PIVOT can be engineered to build lightweight frame structures without resorting to exotic materials or tube shapes.

    Featuring 12mm thru axle, QR 12mm axle, or 10mm vertical QR possibilities, plenty of stock wheels fit the design.

    Bottom Line: SPLIT-PIVOT can be engineered to offer a ride that will make you want to be on your bike more often."

    [concentric dropout pivot], brake side
    [concentric dropout pivot], drive side
    http://www.split-pivot.com/images/08...away_drive.jpg[concentric dropout pivot] and swingarm layout
    [concentric dropout pivot] and swingarm side view
    [concentric dropout pivot] and QR12 axle

    When you look at the pictures and you think about the original HORST LINK was much farther from the pivot. Dave Turner moved the pivot closer to the axel. The reason I heard was that the Shimano rear derailleurs banged on the chain stay.

    One measure of Dave Turner's genius is that he can actually make a single pivot/linkage design not only work, but work very well.

    DW's Quote from his website: http://www.split-pivot.com/buyit.html
    "Split Pivot will be available Worldwide in late 2007 and early 2008, details on brands and models to come soon. Prototypes are out there, keep your eyes peeled!"

    I guess I'm a true homer, I'm not giving up my Burner until they pry it hand off it after I'm dead. However, I wouldn't mind owning a five inch bike.

    Cheers,

    Kane

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I would like to see a 5" frame but with steeper geometry than my 5.5 Spot. 13 1/8" bottom bracket hght. Medium would have a 23 1/4" ETT--sorta like my Burner only with 5" of travel so I can run a Revelation on it at 130mm and not fokk up the designed angles. XC/AM oriented, not freeride angles. I bet I'm the only one here wanting this frame, yeah? Oh, yeah, this is a DW/split pivot thread so I'll say that I don't know anything about them so I'm not lusting for them.
    Thats what I love about this place we redesign everything for something that already exisits, darn we hard to please, DT must have nightmares decifering all this, hope he knows we know nothing, and are all expert key tappers, riding with him must be fun which way the Homers going today right ok I'll take the trail on the left then

    XCguy I thought that was called a Flux! get the RP23/Fox Fork or Reba pushed and you'll feel like ya have an extra inch of travel FnR there and ya geo will be spot on not to spot a pun

    Chur bud, love it..
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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    Well TA

    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    Thats what I love about this place we redesign everything for something that already exisits, darn we hard to please, DT must have nightmares decifering all this, hope he knows we know nothing, and are all expert key tappers, riding with him must be fun which way the Homers going today right ok I'll take the trail on the left then

    XCguy I thought that was called a Flux! get the RP23/Fox Fork or Reba pushed and you'll feel like ya have an extra inch of travel FnR there and ya geo will be spot on not to spot a pun

    Chur bud, love it..
    I got a bunch of crap from everyone when I had a Revelation on my Burner. When I dialed it up to 130mm it had a 13 3/8" bb, 5" in front...but still 4" in back and slacker angles than the Burner was designed for. It's not that I didn't like the ride, but now I've got a Fox 32 100RLC in front (PUSHed 4 and 4) and it feels just right. Now if it only had 5" in back, 5" in front and drove as quickly as it does now...

    So I've also got the Spot begging to be ridden but I'm being selective which trails I take it out on. If I was able to ride out my front door and do Moab it'd be the Spot, hands down, but for my area the Burner is the choice. Wait, this is a dwlink/split thread. That is all.

    (and I am getting a U-Turn Reba PUSHed, can't wait to put it on the Burner).
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Nothing says CRUTCH like a Ti frame.
    Make that a Jones ti frame!

    (oops, wrong thread)
    Whining is not a strategy.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I would like to see a 5" frame but with steeper geometry than my 5.5 Spot. 13 1/8" bottom bracket hght. Medium would have a 23 1/4" ETT--sorta like my Burner only with 5" of travel so I can run a Revelation on it at 130mm and not fokk up the designed angles. XC/AM oriented, not freeride angles. I bet I'm the only one here wanting this frame, yeah? Oh, yeah, this is a DW/split pivot thread so I'll say that I don't know anything about them so I'm not lusting for them.
    Other than the BB height that sounds like about 27 different models in the Ellsworth lineup!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesh to Steel
    With people liking mongoose and trek bikes now, what's next in this crazy world? People disliking the bottlerocket?!

  44. #44
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    Split Pivot, DW Link, TNT Pivot, DW TNT, Split TNT- whatever, it is...if they ride better than the current models, I'll try one and buy one. The new Spot and even the RFX are impressive general trail bikes and for example, if they tell me a "new" Spot is better, I'm not saying I'll buy one without a test but I'd probably buy one over anything else out there if the claims is true.

    I tested so many bikes that they I am having trouble keeping my visuals/impressions lined up. The Spot was the most impressive trailbike if I were to simply have one bike. I hope DT is up to something..anything

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog
    Other than the BB height that sounds like about 27 different models in the Ellsworth lineup!
    LOL I was trying SO hard not to say that myself!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    LOL I was trying SO hard not to say that myself!
    My Burner's got the angles I'm talking about. If it had five inches in back...and DT made it...it'd still be a Turner, right? Is my Burner actually an Ellsworth?
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  47. #47
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    I heard DT and DW were open mouth kissing at Sea Otter...
    If you are going to start rumors...

  48. #48
    I sweep myself
    Reputation: slomo's Avatar
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    iirc Derby's post just said DT liked the DW-bike, not like-liked it - maybe someone should pass DW a note in gym and see if he like-likes DT - if he just likes him it will probably be split-pivot, if he like-likes him, full on 3rd-base DW-link petting
    "In the past few years there has been building up within me an obsession that the only way to piece of mind is to go somewhere in the desert, far away from things, and just sit down." - Ernie Pyle

  49. #49
    mtbr member
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    Get the facts straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Mark
    On one of the threads somewhere a few weeks back, i read that derby lent out his personal Mojo to DT 4 a spin...
    After DT returns the bike he comments on how he was really impressed the DW ride qualities...
    DT may just have been acting politically correct or his wheels may be turnering...
    To be precise, "DT had the opportunity to demo ride a Mojo that a distributor had left at his shop for a few days due to some logistical problems the distributor had." (Dave Turner’s ride review of the Mojo) So, it was not Derby's personal Mojo.

    Secondly, Derby wrote that DT "was most impressed with the bike while climbing and looking down watching the suspension moving over bumps but not having to scoot forward to the nose of the seat sacrificing leg reach and power. He found it remarkable that a rider could stay back comfortably centered on the seat even when climbing got fairly steep and the suspension was still working well."

    Nowhere did Derby report any comments on what DT thought about the bike for downhill, railing corners, or G-outs, or any other ride quality - solely uphill performance was discussed.

  50. #50
    Outcast
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    May 2004
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    So...is the Mojo a good bike for hucking? How about urban? I'm looking for something I can huck two-foot to flat [my specialty]. And, can I put a ccdb on it? Thanks in advance.
    ****

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