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  1. #1
    DGC
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    DW 5 Spot RP23 mod

    So if you read my review of the DW Spot, at the end i mentioned the bottom out on the shock. I have heard only a few people mention the same thing, easy to bottom out.
    Instead of bumping the air pressure up, losing sag and losing small bump performance, I have come up with a mod that will end the ease at bottom out and keep all small bump and mid stroke plushness pretty much the same. Does not take an expensive rebuilt custom tuned shock either. Everyone of you can do this mod in a few minutes. it is very simple.
    If you remember some years ago I was making shims for the DHX air for the 5 Spot. Instead of just dumping the shock and moving onto the RP23 I wanted to try to ramp up the end of the stroke on the dhx-a, it did not fix the mid stroke wallow, but it sure made for a nice decending shock. The same idea applies here. I had throughout all the riding/testing on the DW 5 Spot done a ride or loop on the shock as stock, then lnstalled the shim and did the same ride minutes later. I did this many times to be sure the shim idea was going to be acceptable. Not only did it turn out acceptable, but the results were so good, I won't go back to the stock set up.
    All I am essentially doing is reducing the air sleeve volume. The outer large sleeve that is, NOT the main air sleeve. I will say this again later, leave the main air sleeve on the shock, it does not need to be removed.
    The shim is made of ski base material, or better known as plastic. EXACTLY 1.2mm thick. I have tried thicker, around 1.5-1.7mm and it makes it nearly impossible to get the air sleeve back on. Any ski shop has this stuff. It is quite cheap. A few bucks or maybe 5 bucks and your set. It gets sold to us ski shops in sheets and even rolls. Many thicknesses are offered so stick with the exact 1.2mm rule and you will be fine. Get an accurate set of calipers to measure, or borrow some. I have tried a few different width pieces and I found the one I will reccomend being about the best size for the average rider on the DW 5 Spot.
    The size i felt works real good is 135mm long by 20mm wide. Keep the length exact at 135mm's. My riding weight is 190 lbs., I like agressive rough technical rides with plenty of chance for small air's, so trust me this size is good to start with. If you were really having a bottom out problem and are doing lots of small drops and kickers then maybe a little wider, but make yourself known and I will tell you what I think based on your needs. I tried a 23mm wide piece, I like the 20mm better.
    First off, get enough of the materail or something similar that is plyable enough to roll up into the size of a half dollar, stiff and brittle wont work. There should be other stuff out there just about the thickness and softness as the ski base stuff i use. Plastic is all over the place if you think about it.
    Once you got the material, cut your piece with a sharp box knife, thin blades work best. Next, with the shock off the bike, release all air from the shock air valve. LEAVE the main air sleeve on the shock. Then remove big metal c-clip that sits on the end of the outer air sleeve. I use a c-clip tool and barely put any pressure on each end of the c-clip and it raises up enough to get of with your fingers from here. Then grasp the outer air sleeve and push down on it away from the top of the shock and it will easily pop right off. Clean any dirt from both ends of the air sleeve as there are 2 big air seals that need to reseal properly. Installing the shim is shown in one of my pictures, roll the shim up tight so you get get it on the air sleeve without touching the edge of the shim to the seal. Put the shim inside and at the end of the air sleeve (bottom end) in which the c-clip sits against. The other end (top end) of the air sleeve is where the air bleed hole is located, this is where air comes from the main sleeve, don't cover it up with the shim. Make sense so far?
    When you position the shim against the inside of the body and at the bottom end of the air sleeve you can actually click or press the shim ends together for a good fit, that is why I say exactly 135mm long on the shim. It will stay there securely. Then put c-clip back in place, it will sit in its groove, then air up the shock and go ride it......!!!!!!
    It is simple to do this.
    I am running about 5-10 psi. less air with the shim. Remember you are taking away air space or volume so a little less air might be what you end up with. I have been running sag right about 15 or 16mm's, about 5/8 of an inch.
    Trust me, this works damn good. Sounds a little wierd, but if both Rock Shox and Fox are using plastic spacers in their shocks then there is no reason to doubt this mod if you need a little ramp at the end of the stroke for bottom out protection.

    Remember this line...........Try it, you'll like it. """Mikey likes it and he hates everything....!!!!"""

    Any questions? Ask away.
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    OUCH...!!!!!!

  2. #2
    gnuH
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    At 135x20x1.2mm you get a volume reduction of 3.24cc.

    You could do what I do and squirt in an extra 3/4 of a 5cc pillow pack of Fox Fluid into the air can and get the same result. Don't even have to remove the shock from the bike to get the fluid in. I've been doing this for about 18 months and have not experienced any problems with fluid migrating into the negative air chamber or blocking the bleed hole. Ramps up the last inch or so of travel nicely.

    PUSH also offer a bottom out 'bumper' as part of their tune that serves the same purpose. A few 575 riders have had the bumper installed with good results.

  3. #3
    DGC
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    At 135x20x1.2mm you get a volume reduction of 3.24cc.

    You could do what I do and squirt in an extra 3/4 of a 5cc pillow pack of Fox Fluid into the air can and get the same result. Don't even have to remove the shock from the bike to get the fluid in. I've been doing this for about 18 months and have not experienced any problems with fluid migrating into the negative air chamber or blocking the bleed hole. Ramps up the last inch or so of travel nicely.

    PUSH also offer a bottom out 'bumper' as part of their tune that serves the same purpose. A few 575 riders have had the bumper installed with good results.
    Only problem with extra lube in there, is it will eventually come out, changing the amount of effect from when first put in, and it will make more of a mess especially when riding in warm weather. I had tried this a few years back with the dhx-a, it made a mess and I could feel a loss of progressiveness 2 weeks after the change, there was lube all over the shock shaft. A thick grease would be better than float fluid if you choose this route over the shim. Push is charging how much to tune your shock....and add the shim?
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  4. #4
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    i just read somewhere that the 2010 RP23 will include the Boost Valve technology to control bottoming better. Sounds like you will need to use the PP lever to turn it off and on though, which won't do much if you ride it wide open.

  5. #5
    DGC
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    2010

    Quote Originally Posted by unclekittykiller
    i just read somewhere that the 2010 RP23 will include the Boost Valve technology to control bottoming better. Sounds like you will need to use the PP lever to turn it off and on though, which won't do much if you ride it wide open.
    I heard the same, though I also heard the shock was not quite finalized, so we will see in a few months what comes of it.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  6. #6
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    Thanks for that. I don't have a Sultan, but I do need to reduce the volume of a large can RS Monarch and I think that will do the trick.

    Apparently, RS makes "tuning bands" for the shock, but I have not found anyone who carries them.

  7. #7
    gnuH
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Only problem with extra lube in there, is it will eventually come out, changing the amount of effect from when first put in, and it will make more of a mess especially when riding in warm weather. I had tried this a few years back with the dhx-a, it made a mess and I could feel a loss of progressiveness 2 weeks after the change, there was lube all over the shock shaft. A thick grease would be better than float fluid if you choose this route over the shim. Push is charging how much to tune your shock....and add the shim?
    Haven't had this problem with the RP23. Nothing seems to migrate into the neg chamber and certainly not out and onto the shock shaft. How where your seals? Old I expect.

  8. #8
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    I just called Fox about the bottoming on my 09 5 Spot and asked about both the shim or adding fluid to the air chamber to solve it.
    They suggested I could make the compression more progressive by using a Fox standard size air sleeve(I guess the rp23 that comes stock with the 09 5 spot uses a larger sleeve).
    The sleeve and seal kit together were $40 and ordered it while I had them on the phone.
    I was directed to check their website under "tech & service" to find a air sleeve maintainence video so I can do it myself.

    Wanted to be sure I wouldn't void a warranty and thought Fox was helpful with their advice(although it cost more).

  9. #9
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    The LV (or "standard") air sleeve is a common fix for heavier riders and bottoming out problems. It's a very simple procedure - you also get a bit more plushness in the early part of the stroke since you run a lower initial air pressure than with the HV sleeve. It's more progressive at the end stroke due to the lower volume so your BO resistance goes up- a good combo all around, but basically the same idea as this ghetto option.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  10. #10
    DGC
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    volume reduction

    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Thanks for that. I don't have a Sultan, but I do need to reduce the volume of a large can RS Monarch and I think that will do the trick.

    Apparently, RS makes "tuning bands" for the shock, but I have not found anyone who carries them.
    Your welcome.
    You can probably get a LBS to order you a shim for your RS shock. If not, they may be willing to send you one direct, call SRAM. Or better yet, I can make a call for you tomorrow.
    My original post shows you can do this shim mod to suit more than just a Turner or a Fox. I show specifics as it pertains to the 2009 DW 5 Spot and the RP23 that comes with it. I have been testing my shims in my shocks for the last 4 years or so. It is a very clean, easy and effective way to change the last bit of travel, or bottoming effect.....it works damn good.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  11. #11
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    why not just run a coil over?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    The shim is made of ski base material, or better known as plastic. EXACTLY 1.2mm thick. I have tried thicker, around 1.5-1.7mm and it makes it nearly impossible to get the air sleeve back on.
    I have been considering this mod to my float. Rumor has it that fox doesn't make a low volume sleeve for the 8.5x2.5 version, so this type of fix is the only way to go. At any rate, you mention that it gets impossible to assemble with thicker plastic. Would you mind elaborating? Mechanical interference I would imagine, but does the plastic get knocked out as you assemble?

    Ever thought of using something softer? I was on McMaster and see you can get sheets of polyurethane in .060" (about1.5mm). Even if there was interference, with a bit of float fluid to aid, the rubber would deform and still slip on.
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#8824t125/=16mxmx
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  13. #13
    DGC
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    softer would be fine

    Quote Originally Posted by AL29er
    I have been considering this mod to my float. Rumor has it that fox doesn't make a low volume sleeve for the 8.5x2.5 version, so this type of fix is the only way to go. At any rate, you mention that it gets impossible to assemble with thicker plastic. Would you mind elaborating? Mechanical interference I would imagine, but does the plastic get knocked out as you assemble?

    Ever thought of using something softer? I was on McMaster and see you can get sheets of polyurethane in .060" (about1.5mm). Even if there was interference, with a bit of float fluid to aid, the rubber would deform and still slip on.
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#8824t125/=16mxmx
    Softer material would work fine, it is the thickness I speak of that would make it nearly impossible to get the sleeve back on. 1.2mm thickness works real well. I have tried in the 1.5-1.75mm thick and had to really push damn hard to get the sleeve back on. I would say 1.5mm thich as the max. Thing is at 1.2mm, you can always put in a wider shim. If it feels like too much boost at the end of the stroke, cut a few mm's at a time off and try it. The plastic does not get knocked out as you assemble with it being too thick, it just makes it almost impossible to get the sleeve back on. At 135mm in length the shim sits in the sleeve failry snug and almost clicks against itself as the ends meet.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  14. #14
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    tried it

    I got a ride in last night with a shim like DGC shows. Amazing difference.
    This will probably work on all kinds of bikes and lengths of shocks for a couple bucks worth of plastic. I felt no difference in the first 3/4 travel and then it had the smoothest ramp up right at the end. At first I did not think it was working, with all the small bump mid stroke compliance still intact. This small bump mid stroke compliance is something that is super important to my riding, the dw-link has allowed for very light valving to be used so that the rear of the bike will absorb smaller bumps than anything I have done before and I don't want the mid stroke to be firmed up AT ALL. This mod just effects the very last bit of travel, at least in this size of shim. If someone bigger and faster than myself wanted more ramp up, they can either use a slightly thicker or slightly wider piece of plastic. It was so easy to install and with a sharp razor can be tuned perfectly. don't spend money on a small air can until you have tried a couple sizes of this. The small air can will radically alter your whole air spring, the shim in roughly the size DGC has created is an end travel adjuster.

    HDPE that can be had in sheets will work, but a cheap little trash can with thin walls from the Dollar Store works just as well, no shipping! I found that it was important to cut it the right length! If the strip is a little too short it will not 'pop' out tight and round on the inside wall of the XV sleeve which will make it grab the shock when I tried to slide the XV over the shock. If the sheet is a little thicker, make the strip a little narrower, simple.

    DT

  15. #15
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    So, this modification has always been curious to me as we've talked about offering something like this to our customers. I just happen to have one of these bikes here so I figured I'd check it out. Here are the results:

    The first graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the DGC modification.
    The second graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the PUSH bottoming system.

    Darren
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    So, this modification has always been curious to me as we've talked about offering something like this to our customers. I just happen to have one of these bikes here so I figured I'd check it out. Here are the results:

    The first graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the DGC modification.
    The second graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the PUSH bottoming system.

    Darren
    Darren,

    Very interesting data, thanks for posting it!

    What are the two curves for each color? Is that hysteresis between the compression and rebound stroke or just different air pressures?

    Also, is the negative spring rate in the bottom set of curves at the beginning of the stroke or the inversion in the upper curves also at the beginning of the stroke a measure of the error bars on the graph? If not, how do you make sense of that behavior?

  17. #17
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    Darren, how about a third graph showing the difference between an LV can and an HV can, with no mods to either.
    A blind man searches in a dark room for a black hat that isn't there. Dashiell Hammett

  18. #18
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    Darren, very cool. The push bottoming obviously does a better job at the end of stroke without messing with the rest of the curve. For a falling rate bike it looks like the DGC mod would be better since it has effect over the entire curve.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  19. #19
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    Darren, that's pretty cool, but what would be even more cool is if you would finish working on my RP3 and send it back to me.
    ****

  20. #20
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    What are the two curves for each color? Is that hysteresis between the compression and rebound stroke or just different air pressures?
    It shows both the compression and extension stroke....if you focus on the upper part of the line that's the actual force on compression.


    Darren, that's pretty cool, but what would be even more cool is if you would finish working on my RP3 and send it back to me.
    Doh! Fed Ex didn't have any service yesterday due to the weather so it'll be leaving today.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Doh! Fed Ex didn't have any service yesterday due to the weather so it'll be leaving today.
    That's what you said Tuesday!

    edit: he actually called me!
    Last edited by Renegade; 03-27-2009 at 02:55 PM.
    ****

  22. #22
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    That is interesting.

    You know, I would love to see a graph of the pushed rp23 on a TNT 5.5 spot for comparison. Purty please!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    It shows both the compression and extension stroke....if you focus on the upper part of the line that's the actual force on compression.

    So the difference in compression and rebound at any point is fricition in an air shock?

  24. #24
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    The cylindrical plastic lid of a blank CD-R spindle works well for the mod. Not as soft a plastic as p-tex but...
    Someone else suggested it on one of DGC's threads and it works great.

  25. #25
    DGC
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    quite interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    So, this modification has always been curious to me as we've talked about offering something like this to our customers. I just happen to have one of these bikes here so I figured I'd check it out. Here are the results:

    The first graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the DGC modification.
    The second graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the PUSH bottoming system.

    Darren
    Darren,
    As i see the graph's, my shim gets progressive on a more gradual curve, where your bottoming system allows a more linear feel longer then ramps up hard at the very end. Thank you for posting this, cool to see.
    Here is a picture of another shim I have used in the past on the dhx-a. I am testing a version of this currently on the DW, the shim is 135x17mm with the added raised end.
    Anyways, thanks again for posting these graph's.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    OUCH...!!!!!!

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