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  1. #26
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    Interesting mod, DGC...and quite innovative and inexpensive

    The PUSH mod looks great too. I wonder if a rider can tell if there is a difference. Of course, knowing my inability to use sharp tools and my ham-fisted nature, I'd have to go with Darren's mod by default.

  2. #27
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    Darren, any idea how an AVA sleeve compares to the previous curves?

    I called a bud and inquired about a LV sleeve for an 8.5x2.5 and he did confirm that they don't make it at Fox. But he did have an older RP3 with AVA he is going to let me play around with.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  3. #28
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    Darren,
    As i see the graph's, my shim gets progressive on a more gradual curve, where your bottoming system allows a more linear feel longer then ramps up hard at the very end. Thank you for posting this, cool to see.
    Here is a picture of another shim I have used in the past on the dhx-a. I am testing a version of this currently on the DW, the shim is 135x17mm with the added raised end.
    Anyways, thanks again for posting these graph's.
    Yeah, it was cool to measure the results. As you see, there's definitely merit to what you're doing.

    Interesting mod, DGC...and quite innovative and inexpensive

    The PUSH mod looks great too. I wonder if a rider can tell if there is a difference. Of course, knowing my inability to use sharp tools and my ham-fisted nature, I'd have to go with Darren's mod by default.
    The results are large enough that you would be able to feel the difference for sure.

    Darren, any idea how an AVA sleeve compares to the previous curves?

    I called a bud and inquired about a LV sleeve for an 8.5x2.5 and he did confirm that they don't make it at Fox. But he did have an older RP3 with AVA he is going to let me play around with.
    You know if I recall correctly, the AVA fully closed is just slightly larger than the current standard volume air canister. I'd have to double check that one.

    Anyway, I'm on my way to Fruita/Moab until Wednesday with my 5 Spot in tow....I'd love to stay and chat, but got some riding to do!

    Darren

  4. #29
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    Would the shim size be the same for a 7.5 x 2 shock on the V2 Sultan?

    It's freakin pouring here, and I need a good garage project.

    Thanks!
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  5. #30
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    My Tiny Contribution

    For those of you who find suitable plastic shim material that isn't exactly 1.2 mm thick, here's a simple formula for figuring out the width of your shim, based on the thickness of your plastic material.

    Width (in millimeters) = 24 Divided by Thickness (in millimeters)

    So for the CD stack cover I found that is 0.9 mm thick, width is 24/0.9, or 26.7 mm.

    Since I'm not super agressive, and am working with a shorter shock, I'll probably just try 20 mm to start with anyway.
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    The cylindrical plastic lid of a blank CD-R spindle works well for the mod. Not as soft a plastic as p-tex but...
    Someone else suggested it on one of DGC's threads and it works great.
    That was a great tip. Thank you!

    First ride on the shimmed HV RP23. Still not as progressive as I'd like it. I'll try to cut a wider shim.

  7. #32
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    custom shim for a custom ride

    Quote Originally Posted by nybike1971
    That was a great tip. Thank you!

    First ride on the shimmed HV RP23. Still not as progressive as I'd like it. I'll try to cut a wider shim.
    That is the whole idea with the shims, make the size you want based on your riding. As you use bigger shims though you might start to feel a little loss of mid stroke plushness, but a few more mm's should be fine. Play with it and find out what works for you. I don't like the feel of air shocks when they are too linear long and deep in the travel then ramp up real hard, feels too punchy to me. But, that is me. Different strokes for different folks. That is the problem I had with the dhx-a on the TNT bike.
    The CD spindle idea shows what I said recently, there is all kinds of plastic out there if you think of it. The next one I am trying is a 1.5mm thick not as wide with a ramp on the end like I pictured above last night. It might get too much like the punchy feel I don't like, we'll see.
    Glad to see your trying this shim mod.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    That is the whole idea with the shims, make the size you want based on your riding. As you use bigger shims though you might start to feel a little loss of mid stroke plushness, but a few more mm's should be fine. Play with it and find out what works for you. I don't like the feel of air shocks when they are too linear long and deep in the travel then ramp up real hard, feels too punchy to me. But, that is me. Different strokes for different folks. That is the problem I had with the dhx-a on the TNT bike.
    The CD spindle idea shows what I said recently, there is all kinds of plastic out there if you think of it. The next one I am trying is a 1.5mm thick not as wide with a ramp on the end like I pictured above last night. It might get too much like the punchy feel I don't like, we'll see.
    Glad to see your trying this shim mod.
    DGC,

    I should have said this explicitly. That's a brilliant mod because it is so simple and so easy to customize. So, thanks!

    Could you explain the "ramp" at the end of the shim in the picture? I am not sure I understand it.

  9. #34
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    ramp

    Quote Originally Posted by nybike1971
    DGC,

    I should have said this explicitly. That's a brilliant mod because it is so simple and so easy to customize. So, thanks!

    Could you explain the "ramp" at the end of the shim in the picture? I am not sure I understand it.
    First off, your welcome. It can be installed in a minute or 2, very easy to do as you said, more people in here should give it a try.
    The ramp is for a pocket in the air sleeve. On the inside of the air sleeve there is a slightly machined 1/4 inch long pocket, it is very slight in depth. If there is a decent amount of lube in the air sleeve you wont even see the depression it is so slight. My feeling is if you fill that pocket entirely with a tight fit, you will get a slightly more progressive feel at the very end of the stroke. More bottomout protection. I have used black electrical tape, and layered it to get the effect i want. Now I am trying to make that 1/4 end ramp with pitex or something more solid.
    The picture shows i believe 2 layers of tape. I have before on the dhx-a crammed as many as 5 layers in there before, but that makes it real hard to get the sleeve back on the main air body.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  10. #35
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    Rs

    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Thanks for that. I don't have a Sultan, but I do need to reduce the volume of a large can RS Monarch and I think that will do the trick.

    Apparently, RS makes "tuning bands" for the shock, but I have not found anyone who carries them.
    I called SRAM, 2 different people acted as if they never have heard of shims in an air sleeve before. Both denied RS making them. I have talked with someone outside SRAM who says they do have them and has seen them. Probably has not made it to the consumer end of the market yet, maybe it exists in the race department. I would bet they will have a few in a drawer at Sea Otter. If your Monarch has the external HV sleeve then make one as I have done here for the Fox.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    I called SRAM, 2 different people acted as if they never have heard of shims in an air sleeve before. Both denied RS making them. I have talked with someone outside SRAM who says they do have them and has seen them. Probably has not made it to the consumer end of the market yet, maybe it exists in the race department. I would bet they will have a few in a drawer at Sea Otter. If your Monarch has the external HV sleeve then make one as I have done here for the Fox.
    Thanks for checking into that for me. That is pretty much the same response I got to inquiries. I have a pretty reliable source that says they exist.

    The Monarch is built a little different from the Fox. Here is a pictorial of it being taken apart.

    First let all the air out.



    Take off the O-ring at the bottom.



    Slide the sleeve off.





    As you can see, the sleeve does not have the lip in it like the Fox. The lip is on the shock body. In some ways, this makes it easier to adjust the air volume with just some rubber bands.



    My shock was way, way too linear for my bike. Bottomed easily with correct sag. I added two layers of cut inner tube and a rubber band from some Broccolli. Ramps up nicely now. Seems a little less progressive than the small volume Fox currently on the bike. I suppose you could just as well wrap it with some tape.

    I actually prefer the small volume Fox RP23 as far as the spring goes, and it requires no fussing. Nice to have the option to tune the spring though. No trail time on the RS with the more progressive spring yet.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    You know if I recall correctly, the AVA fully closed is just slightly larger than the current standard volume air canister. I'd have to double check that one.

    Anyway, I'm on my way to Fruita/Moab until Wednesday with my 5 Spot in tow....I'd love to stay and chat, but got some riding to do!

    Darren
    Riding is overrated, just hang here and BS about our shocks instead

    Interesting on the AVA. I will give it a try regardless. If it doesn't do the trick then I will check out this shim deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  13. #38
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    would be interesting if Darren or DT commented on the upcoming boost valve version of the RP23:


  14. #39
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    I tried the mod on my Sultan. Very easy to do with DGC's instructions. Thanks.

    It worked fine, but I don't really think the Sultan needs it, maybe because of its lower leverage ratio compared to the Spot.

    I used a shim about 75% the volume of DGC's (135 x 20 x 0.9), and with 15 mm of sag, I no longer used full travel on a rough, technical ride where I normally gently feel bottom once or twice. If I were doing a lot of drops, I would slip that shim right back in.

    I need a shim that will make my March legs feel like they do in July!

    Thanks again, DGC!
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    So, this modification has always been curious to me as we've talked about offering something like this to our customers. I just happen to have one of these bikes here so I figured I'd check it out. Here are the results:

    The first graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the DGC modification.
    The second graph shows the air spring curve comparison between stock and the PUSH bottoming system.

    Darren
    Hey Darren,
    I have the PUSH bottoming system on my Mojo (w/std air can). So does my shock have the same curve as you've shown? I have felt that it was too big of a change from the stock shock, i.e., it prevents bottoming too much such that I never use the last 8mm of shock travel, even on the biggest drops that I do.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB24
    Hey Darren,
    I have the PUSH bottoming system on my Mojo (w/std air can). So does my shock have the same curve as you've shown? I have felt that it was too big of a change from the stock shock, i.e., it prevents bottoming too much such that I never use the last 8mm of shock travel, even on the biggest drops that I do.
    Darren, similar situation for me too. I've gotten a few rides in on the RP3 since you reworked it; I have the HV can with the P-bottoming system. The last 1/2 inch of shock stroke is unobtainable. What exactly is the Push bottoming system? Do you guys put a stiff elastomer in there?
    ****

  17. #42
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    The bottoming system that's installed in your shocks only effects the last 1/4"(6.35mm) of travel, so in both of your cases the bottoming system is a factor. Are you measuring the distance between the wiper and travel indicator o-ring to get your measurements? Unlike the SPOT, the MOJO is very linear in nature so it's uncommon to not get full travel. With the SPOT, it's mechanical nature is such that you get a lot of bottoming protection from the linkage so the bumper that is used is much softer.

    Darren

  18. #43
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    Darren, yes, I'm measuring from the wiper to the o-ring. The travel feels slightly linear untill the shock has compressed 1.5 inches, then it sofly but surely hits that wall. It lfeels just like your graph looks, but skewed.
    ****

  19. #44
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    Funny how it's a modification. I thought the large air volume was a mod from this to a more linear response. People used to complain about the increasing rate of air shocks. Now it's the other way around.

    That PushInd curve looks very sweet though. Kinda like a soft bottoming feature..IE like the rubber bumper on a coil shock.
    Last edited by lidarman; 04-08-2009 at 05:17 PM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    The bottoming system that's installed in your shocks only effects the last 1/4"(6.35mm) of travel, so in both of your cases the bottoming system is a factor. Are you measuring the distance between the wiper and travel indicator o-ring to get your measurements? Unlike the SPOT, the MOJO is very linear in nature so it's uncommon to not get full travel. With the SPOT, it's mechanical nature is such that you get a lot of bottoming protection from the linkage so the bumper that is used is much softer.

    Darren
    Yes, measuring from the wiper lip to the 0-ring, I can use only 43mm on the bigger drops. It does feel like your graph. Before the bottoming system was installed, I would bottom the shock a bit too often.

    >Mojo, Pushed RP23 w/std air can

  21. #46
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    Wow, this is such a huge resource of information.... one question though... how do I do this on a standard PR23 that I am constendly bottoming out when I run the recomended 15mm sag on my Mojo... I need the Boost at the end of the stroke thing...
    I weight about 86kg.

    Thanks

  22. #47
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    It's tough to diagnose over the internet. I would say for Renegade and MB to just shoot my an email or call so we can discuss it further....or in Renegade's case just swing up with your bike!

    That PushInd curve looks very sweet though. Kinda like a soft bottoming feature..IE like the rubber bumper on a coil shock.
    That's a big part of it...see photo.

    Darren
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #48
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    Darren

    Can the guys at TF-Tuned do the bottom out thing for me?

    I will be sending my Rp23 over that way at the end of the month... is there anything specific I should ask for to get teh best performance fof my mojo?

  24. #49
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    Great discussion going on here. Any experience with DT-Swiss shock? I'm on the Mojo and do aggressive riding. There are no HV sleeve to take out, but injecting grease into Air chamber may work.
    Anyone tried this?
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  25. #50
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    Great idea DGC like others have said quite cool, Iíve gone with the CD lid plastic setup, and went a little wider 25mm vs 20mm since Iím heavier and a little out of shape at mo but gym will get me back there hopefully In few months, one of reasons Iím playing with my air shock, Iíd rather be running a coil Avy etc, [no new bike stuff till working again] I do have a Romic which is working out surprisingly well but thought this would be fun to try, since its lying around.

    Iím using a DHXa, and it was slightly in stuck down mode which was weird because it did extend and function properly on the bike, but was slightly shorter in stroke than it should have been, because it worked fine I thought it must have been swapped for wrong stroke in the beginning as mine was a warranty replacement for being stuck down since new! But no some air must have gotten in the negative chamber, either that or the grit and crap that had built up in there had been the issue as there was some crap in there not much but ya only need a little!

    So for the outer can 25mm width by 135 in length was perfect fit and I got the can fitted again no probs!

    Like you say itís very simple to do, so easy everyone should try it, nothing can go wrong, just follow the above, basically the same as the ownerís manual anyways.

    So I definitely feel a difference in initial stroke and then some nice ramp up, it does feel more progressive, Iíve not set my normal air setting so I could still cycle the shock through enough of its travel to get a feel in static mode, nice definite difference, still need to do a proper ride though to prove the setting and shim is right Iíll make some smaller and wider now and see over time how much difference they make, be nice to get rid of that crap mid stroke run a little less in the main chamber for smoother initial bump feel and more sag but with ramp up at end without over doing the bottom out adj on the bor knob or extra psi in the piggy back!

    So will report over some time, my wee get back on the bike loop has a bit of everything itís a perfect test loop, berms roots lots of downs and climbs too 2ft drops lol whoops, Iím not up to jumping at normal riding so true bottom out ramp up will be some time off yet, but I was getting full travel on this trail with 220psi in the man chamber previously so I had to ramp up the bottom out resistance knob, so be interesting if I can use less air in the main and dial back the bor on the piggyback with the shim mod in there!
    Last edited by trailadvent; 04-14-2009 at 11:02 PM.
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