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  1. #1
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    DT have you thought about a carbon 5 Spot?

    DT what are your thoughts on a carbon 5 spot?
    Ta

  2. #2
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    Where would Turner get the know-how from? Outsource the frames? That way, you run the risk of becoming yet another Tawanese carbon frame pusher.

  3. #3
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    If Turner produces an overseas carbon frame, I wouldn't describe them as yet another Taiwanese carbon frame pusher.

  4. #4
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    I was under the impression that off shore carbon manufacturing was preferable, not necessarily only for cost savings but because the technology is actually better? Did I read that somewhere or just make it up??

    Edit: Not sure if this topic has been beat to death or not...hope it doesn't bring a sh!tstorm

  5. #5
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    Not again...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by toons101
    If Turner produces an overseas carbon frame, I wouldn't describe them as yet another Taiwanese carbon frame pusher.
    That's why I seaid that you'd run the risk of doing so. Look at Kona, they have a carbon frame that is straight from the catalog of some Taiwanese firm.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    Not again...
    Thank you

  8. #8
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    ?

    Personally or professionally?

    Personally I want carbon. I am a geek and carbon is the latest and probably last frontier of mountain bike material, I am certain it will be the norm in DH bikes in the future and everything in between. I was riding steel when alu was introduced, I then spent a great deal of time on Ti hardtails as alu was taking over the market, challenges were dealt with and alu exploded for several years as the top choice in all things bicycle. But now my Ridley road bike is carbon, my skis and ski poles are full of the stuff and I am sure if I roam around the garage I will find even more stuff that is made with a composite.

    Professionally it will have to happen. I have no project started, but I would be lying to say I have not done a lot of talking to experts on this subject. The big hurdle is cost. I consulted with 2 US companies and there is no way it can be done in the US and be competitive. IF, mountain bikers would pay what roadies and triathletes do for frames then yes it 'could' be done. But we mountainbikers won't and all the current products on the market from the monsters like Specialized all the way down to smaller companies like Ibis have set the price that is acceptable by you, the riders. Like it or not, the U.S. Flag cannot fly on a composite bike and sell enough to pay for the huge tooling and engineering costs. Emotionally it is tough to make a leap of this distance even without a history of import bashing and green manufacturing spewing. The current models are selling well and the DHR will rock that world. I have a couple more models planned for the near future made in USA out of alu so for now I keep on keeping on, but I know in my gut that I am skirting the inevitable.

    DT

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    Very well stated. Makes sense, I am working on assignment in Singapore, training manufacturing that has been outsourced from Texas. I lost my old job to it, but gained this one because of it. Theres a huge pool of highly skilled labor for a very low price and state of the art manufacturing facilities on the cheap. I wish this was not this way, but for now it is. A company must do what it takes to compete..

    So whats the two new models??

    db

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I have a couple more models planned for the near future made in USA out of alu
    DT
    Tease

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    ...I have not done a lot of talking to experts on this subject...
    I am happy to hear you are still in contact with cactuscorn

  12. #12
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    I never understand bashing Taiwan quality - those guys are some of the most talented frame manufacturers on the planet. As though they don't have a right to compete . Bring on the carbon
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  13. #13
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    Bit of both = you answered my question

    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Personally or professionally?

    Personally I want carbon. I am a geek and carbon is the latest and probably last frontier of mountain bike material, I am certain it will be the norm in DH bikes in the future and everything in between. I was riding steel when alu was introduced, I then spent a great deal of time on Ti hardtails as alu was taking over the market, challenges were dealt with and alu exploded for several years as the top choice in all things bicycle. But now my Ridley road bike is carbon, my skis and ski poles are full of the stuff and I am sure if I roam around the garage I will find even more stuff that is made with a composite.

    Professionally it will have to happen. I have no project started, but I would be lying to say I have not done a lot of talking to experts on this subject. The big hurdle is cost. I consulted with 2 US companies and there is no way it can be done in the US and be competitive. IF, mountain bikers would pay what roadies and triathletes do for frames then yes it 'could' be done. But we mountainbikers won't and all the current products on the market from the monsters like Specialized all the way down to smaller companies like Ibis have set the price that is acceptable by you, the riders. Like it or not, the U.S. Flag cannot fly on a composite bike and sell enough to pay for the huge tooling and engineering costs. Emotionally it is tough to make a leap of this distance even without a history of import bashing and green manufacturing spewing. The current models are selling well and the DHR will rock that world. I have a couple more models planned for the near future made in USA out of alu so for now I keep on keeping on, but I know in my gut that I am skirting the inevitable.

    DT
    I was viewing your profile to see the latest instalment on the RFX, when I saw you browsing a thread about carbon frames.

    Then I thought, hmm carbon 5 spot, I wonder how that would ride. I absolutely love my
    DW 5 Spot, itís running so sweet at the mo, and Iím not surprised its selling well, the bike is quality.

    Iíve ridden a Mojo and I can categorically state that it doesnít ride like a turner, it may have the DW link in common, but for me thatís it. Also I've ridden a Specialized Carbon Enduro; again itís no Turner. What I did like about the Enduro & Mojo was the weight, so personally Iíd love to ride a carbon DW 5 spot, so in the future that might be possible

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    I never understand bashing Taiwan quality - those guys are some of the most talented frame manufacturers on the planet. As though they don't have a right to compete . Bring on the carbon
    +1

    It's what I'm waiting for....in 29er flava
    ďLife is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.Ē

    ― Albert Einstein

  15. #15
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    IF, mountain bikers would pay what roadies and triathletes do for frames then yes it 'could' be done.
    If i show a customer a carbon road frame for $4000.00 they nod, if I show them a hand made mtn. frame with multiple machined parts and a $450.00 shock for $2500.00 their eyes bug out. Go figure!

  16. #16
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    Do It

    Ever had any fun times when you and that special lady-friend(s)- er, uh, maybe not a lady- "tried something new"? Just be sure to have a safety word...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Personally or professionally?

    Personally I want carbon. I am a geek and carbon is the latest and probably last frontier of mountain bike material, I am certain it will be the norm in DH bikes in the future and everything in between. I was riding steel when alu was introduced, I then spent a great deal of time on Ti hardtails as alu was taking over the market, challenges were dealt with and alu exploded for several years as the top choice in all things bicycle. But now my Ridley road bike is carbon, my skis and ski poles are full of the stuff and I am sure if I roam around the garage I will find even more stuff that is made with a composite.

    Professionally it will have to happen. I have no project started, but I would be lying to say I have not done a lot of talking to experts on this subject. The big hurdle is cost. I consulted with 2 US companies and there is no way it can be done in the US and be competitive. IF, mountain bikers would pay what roadies and triathletes do for frames then yes it 'could' be done. But we mountainbikers won't and all the current products on the market from the monsters like Specialized all the way down to smaller companies like Ibis have set the price that is acceptable by you, the riders. Like it or not, the U.S. Flag cannot fly on a composite bike and sell enough to pay for the huge tooling and engineering costs. Emotionally it is tough to make a leap of this distance even without a history of import bashing and green manufacturing spewing. The current models are selling well and the DHR will rock that world. I have a couple more models planned for the near future made in USA out of alu so for now I keep on keeping on, but I know in my gut that I am skirting the inevitable.

    DT
    hey Dave

    I don]t have your email, and can't PM you it seems, so I'll ask here.

    Can I quote this for an article I am working on? Its about how carbon will affect the average rider, and this is a great answer.

    Thanks

    jeff@dropmachine.com
    Stuff.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    +1

    It's what I'm waiting for....in 29er flava
    please don't say "flava"

    thanks in advance

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by velo bum
    IF, mountain bikers would pay what roadies and triathletes do for frames then yes it 'could' be done.
    If i show a customer a carbon road frame for $4000.00 they nod, if I show them a hand made mtn. frame with multiple machined parts and a $450.00 shock for $2500.00 their eyes bug out. Go figure!
    my take on roadie stuff versus mtn stuff is this - i have a pinarello frame and campy record parts - but after 4000 miles all i have had to do is swap out some shifter cables, adjust the rear derailleur and clean it occasionally. versus on my mtn bike i seem to break a brake lever, ding a downtube, break a tooth off a chan ring, dent a rim, or even crack a chain stay or scratch up a stanchion fairly regularly. in other words the mtn stuff won't last like roadie stuff does...so i am more prepared to spend the money on road stuff since i get a better roi...i buy x9 and xt level parts on a mtn bike since i crash too much! i also buy turner frames despite them being expensive because of their great customer service / warranty / crash replacmeent policy....turner is about the only company i would ever buy a used frmae form as they transfer warranty....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Anti Bling
    please don't say "flava"

    thanks in advance
    only if you remove the word "Bling" from your username
    ďLife is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.Ē

    ― Albert Einstein

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    my take on roadie stuff versus mtn stuff is this - i have a pinarello frame and campy record parts - but after 4000 miles all i have had to do is swap out some shifter cables, adjust the rear derailleur and clean it occasionally. versus on my mtn bike i seem to break a brake lever, ding a downtube, break a tooth off a chan ring, dent a rim, or even crack a chain stay or scratch up a stanchion fairly regularly. in other words the mtn stuff won't last like roadie stuff does...so i am more prepared to spend the money on road stuff since i get a better roi...i buy x9 and xt level parts on a mtn bike since i crash too much! i also buy turner frames despite them being expensive because of their great customer service / warranty / crash replacmeent policy....turner is about the only company i would ever buy a used frmae form as they transfer warranty....
    Bingo. I have a carbon road bike that's 6 years old and other than replacing chains and cables it's as good as it was when it was new. I can justify paying a lot for a nice road bike since I know it's a long term investment. After 3-4 years my MTB frames look like they've been through a war.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by velo bum
    If i show a customer a carbon road frame for $4000.00 they nod, if I show them a hand made mtn. frame with multiple machined parts and a $450.00 shock for $2500.00 their eyes bug out. Go figure!

    Not surprising.......you see a lot more Hummers all decked out and parked at private golf courses than you do at 4 wheel off road events as well ! Go figure ! TIG.
    " A way to a deep freedom " - Tarja

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I consulted with 2 US companies and there is no way it can be done in the US and be competitive.
    Just a couple comments there...Trek seems to get a pretty good take-rate on their US-made OCLV frames even tho they are on the pricey side of the range. Also, until the new money-grubbing management took over and decided higher margins were required, Cannondale was successful making composite frames in the US and selling complete bikes in the ~5k range.

    Turner has a better brand name than either Trek or C'dale and should be able to command an even higher premium in the market.
    whatever...

  24. #24
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    If Turner goes carbon, it has to have class-leading impact resistance. Then it will be a winner and sway tastes. Also, carbon is repairable, so it looks like those services will be able to hook us up.

    I bump into a lot of things and crash, and unless they can come up with impact resistance like the aviation and auto industry has, it will be out for me. Too bad costs and grams prevent this in bike applications in many cases. However, I still see old school late 90's GT's and Proflex/K2's from time to time in their different types of carbon.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    Just a couple comments there...Trek seems to get a pretty good take-rate on their US-made OCLV frames even tho they are on the pricey side of the range. Also, until the new money-grubbing management took over and decided higher margins were required, Cannondale was successful making composite frames in the US and selling complete bikes in the ~5k range.

    Turner has a better brand name than either Trek or C'dale and should be able to command an even higher premium in the market.

    But Trek and Cannondale would have a higher quantity made and would get a better price because of that.

  26. #26
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    Only full on Carbon Frame from Turner should be a resurrected Nitrous.

    What's the point of making another 5 inch travel Carbon bike when the Ibis Mojo exists...Lots of people bought 5 spots because they wanted a noncarbon, made in the USA frame DW link frame.
    "Can I put a Totem on a FTM?".....Originally Posted by All Mountain

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiEndo
    Only full on Carbon Frame from Turner should be a resurrected Nitrous.
    To me that makes the most sense.

    How much weight are you going to save by making a 5 Spot out of carbon? 1/4 of a pound?
    Maybe a half a pound?
    Is it really worth spending a premium to save a half a pound on a 30 pound bike?
    Personally, I don't think so.

    We'll see what the weight savings is and what people will build when the carbon Nomad gets released to the public.

  28. #28
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    We'll see what the weight savings is and what people will build when the carbon Nomad gets released to the public.[/QUOTE]

    I owned the 09 Nomad, & even if they made the carbon frame 2-3 lbs lighter than the DW Spot, the rear suspension would still get owned by the DW Spot in all terrain. Too bad though, as that 09 was a nice looking bike.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiEndo
    Only full on Carbon Frame from Turner should be a resurrected Nitrous.
    Only leg shaving, gram counting, low single digit body fat XC racers should be demanding carbon. This coming from a gram counting, high single digit body fat XC racer (albeit with hairy legs). I can ride away from 95% of guys on the trail with my "heavy" DW Spot; they need a lot more than carbon to get appreciably faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiEndo
    What's the point of making another 5 inch travel Carbon bike when the Ibis Mojo exists...Lots of people bought 5 spots because they wanted a noncarbon, made in the USA frame DW link frame.
    Turner didn't get where they are today by doing things the same way as everyone else. Why start now?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  30. #30
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    Santa Cruz

    The Blur LTc weights 1.1 pounds less than the 5 Spot, paint to paint.

    The new carbon Nomad is claimed to weigh 1.25 pounds less than the aluminum version, this in the new 2 page ad in May issue of Decline that arrived today. Now if I am not mistaken, mountain bikers are people, most people will buy performance if they can, of any kind, from kitchen food processors to cars, and since the bicycle ALWAYS comes back to weight, having something to do with pedaling the thing up hills, then lower weight will always be a major part of the sales process. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but every single time a rider buys a lighter bike their perception changes, even the Nomad. My prediction? The Nomad will be the tipping point bike for the gnar core or wanna be gnar core riders all over the world. If the ad is published the frames are right around the corner and this summer we will see is carbon tough enough for guys that ride like Ink and Lncnvue and Superstock and airwreck and Kid etc etc. Not poseurs on long travel plush 'cause they're too weak and lazy to stand in the rough, but dudes that can throw down on a bike and yes, even fall down. The Nomad C will challenge everyones ideas of how 'tough' carbon is. Will it puncture? You bet, but we sell stays and front triangles to those that fall onto rock and permanently hurt it, every week. But, lets keep our eyes open to Nomads and even Blur LTc that have failed as I am sure there are thousands out there, are they breaking? I have only seen one Blur LT c that failed, and that was from a fall over onto Boulder Cities finest. Anything but steel would have crumpled with that huge dude and a pointy rock. Others? Cracking? I look at the SC forum, maybe I am missing something, or they don't revel like Homers do when a bike goes down? Instead of wringing your hands and crying that the sky is falling based on so many very very light carbon XC frames that have failed, lets look at trail bikes. There are enough out there.

    DT

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    The Blur LTc weights 1.1 pounds less than the 5 Spot, paint to paint.

    The new carbon Nomad is claimed to weigh 1.25 pounds less than the aluminum version, this in the new 2 page ad in May issue of Decline that arrived today. Now if I am not mistaken, mountain bikers are people, most people will buy performance if they can, of any kind, from kitchen food processors to cars, and since the bicycle ALWAYS comes back to weight, having something to do with pedaling the thing up hills, then lower weight will always be a major part of the sales process. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but every single time a rider buys a lighter bike their perception changes, even the Nomad. My prediction? The Nomad will be the tipping point bike for the gnar core or wanna be gnar core riders all over the world. If the ad is published the frames are right around the corner and this summer we will see is carbon tough enough for guys that ride like Ink and Lncnvue and Superstock and airwreck and Kid etc etc. Not poseurs on long travel plush 'cause they're too weak and lazy to stand in the rough, but dudes that can throw down on a bike and yes, even fall down. The Nomad C will challenge everyones ideas of how 'tough' carbon is. Will it puncture? You bet, but we sell stays and front triangles to those that fall onto rock and permanently hurt it, every week. But, lets keep our eyes open to Nomads and even Blur LTc that have failed as I am sure there are thousands out there, are they breaking? I have only seen one Blur LT c that failed, and that was from a fall over onto Boulder Cities finest. Anything but steel would have crumpled with that huge dude and a pointy rock. Others? Cracking? I look at the SC forum, maybe I am missing something, or they don't revel like Homers do when a bike goes down? Instead of wringing your hands and crying that the sky is falling based on so many very very light carbon XC frames that have failed, lets look at trail bikes. There are enough out there.

    DT

    Very well said . . . I like that DT himself has a realistic view of carbon bikes, although his followers seem to be a little over the top with anti-carbon sentiment.

    I (and others) have posted on previous threads where we've been absolutely blasted for saying essentially the same thing as quoted above.

    As always, DT is a stand up guy that doesn't just bash other brands simply because they are not his own.

    I wonder if those same homers will take DT to task as well??

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph
    Very well said . . . I like that DT himself has a realistic view of carbon bikes, although his followers seem to be a little over the top with anti-carbon sentiment.

    I (and others) have posted on previous threads where we've been absolutely blasted for saying essentially the same thing as quoted above.

    As always, DT is a stand up guy that doesn't just bash other brands simply because they are not his own.

    I wonder if those same homers will take DT to task as well??
    I know you're asking rhetorically, but DT's background as a guy who makes a living designing, building, and selling frames gives him a lot more credibility than most Empty Beer posters.

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    carbon shmarbon It will be a long time before I faith that a carbon bike Turner or not can hold up to the punishment I put my rfx through

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    The Blur LTc weights 1.1 pounds less than the 5 Spot, paint to paint.

    The new carbon Nomad is claimed to weigh 1.25 pounds less than the aluminum version, this in the new 2 page ad in May issue of Decline that arrived today. Now if I am not mistaken, mountain bikers are people, most people will buy performance if they can, of any kind, from kitchen food processors to cars, and since the bicycle ALWAYS comes back to weight, having something to do with pedaling the thing up hills, then lower weight will always be a major part of the sales process. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but every single time a rider buys a lighter bike their perception changes, even the Nomad. My prediction? The Nomad will be the tipping point bike for the gnar core or wanna be gnar core riders all over the world. If the ad is published the frames are right around the corner and this summer we will see is carbon tough enough for guys that ride like Ink and Lncnvue and Superstock and airwreck and Kid etc etc. Not poseurs on long travel plush 'cause they're too weak and lazy to stand in the rough, but dudes that can throw down on a bike and yes, even fall down. The Nomad C will challenge everyones ideas of how 'tough' carbon is. Will it puncture? You bet, but we sell stays and front triangles to those that fall onto rock and permanently hurt it, every week. But, lets keep our eyes open to Nomads and even Blur LTc that have failed as I am sure there are thousands out there, are they breaking? I have only seen one Blur LT c that failed, and that was from a fall over onto Boulder Cities finest. Anything but steel would have crumpled with that huge dude and a pointy rock. Others? Cracking? I look at the SC forum, maybe I am missing something, or they don't revel like Homers do when a bike goes down? Instead of wringing your hands and crying that the sky is falling based on so many very very light carbon XC frames that have failed, lets look at trail bikes. There are enough out there.

    DT
    This lack of punctuation and paragraph indentation is eerily similar to trailadvent's style.


    Pondering whether or not he hijacked your account will keep me up tonight
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    lower weight will always be a major part of the sales process
    And the beauty of a Turner has always been that it was built for real world riding, not spec sheets and glossy two page ads.

    This may not be a recipe for explosive sales numbers, but I have to think your customer satisfaction/loyalty is the envy of the industry. If this business model is no longer viable then I guess your choice has been made for you, but if you're just weighing options (no pun intended!), I would be very careful not to jeopardize the strengths/selling points that Turner Bikes already possess.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley
    If he changes the business model, might I suggest a name change as well?

    DW Enterprises
    Only if you buy the first bike they produce, no matter what the cost .

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by inkpad
    Only if you buy the first bike they produce, no matter what the cost .
    unemployed ditch-diggers can't afford to buy carbon frames
    ****

  38. #38
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    "Unemployed parasite on society" might work better.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley
    Nah..I never buy anything until I see the MTBR reviews.

    I'm sure you will come up with something original
    I think you are one of the originals, Bo, although Muddy Waters & John Lee Hooker are right in there.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley
    Why so harsh glitz? It's hard to EARN a reputation these days..eh?
    Bryan, wtf would you know about earning anything?
    ****

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley
    Nah..I never buy anything until I see the MTBR reviews.

    I'm sure you will come up with something original
    Such as the mtbr reviews that come from that certain company's employees and sponsored riders?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley
    If he changes the business model, might I suggest a name change as well?

    DW Enterprises

    maybe your next user id should be chumba123

  43. #43
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    Hi,

    I say you people should not grumble about CF bikes with Turner logo.
    It might be only for the better, because there will be substantial flow of second hand alloy bikes/frames for all CF haters and riders with not so deep pocket

    Cheers!
    I.
    LoMF syndrome...

  44. #44
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    I was one of the many in 1995 that has a totally sweet Trek Y bike, first gen. I worked at a trek dealership and we sold 70 of em the first year, all my friends rode em. They were tough as hell! 5lbs. alu rear. Mine tumbled down rocky mountain sides. I saw 2 broken ever.

    That was 15 yeas ago!!!

    I see far too many (overseas) carbon mtn bikes that are cracked/broken/damaged coming into my shop these days.

    So what's the deal???

    The deal is, i don't trust any carbon bikes these days because i can't see em cut in half to see what's inside. What grade carbon is being used? How thick? What process? what QC? If i knew they were Trek OCLV quality carbon (from 15 freaking years ago!!!) then i'd be all over it. But i just don't know.

    I made a chainguide out of carbon plate that is $3000 a square meter material-it is the stiffest strongest stuff!! You wouldn't believe how strong it is! The guy i got it from is in aerospace, he rides an aluminum Turner because he doesn't trust any of the bikes on the market-unless he can take a look inside.

    My point is- i'd pay $2000+ for a carbon frame if i knew it was the "good stuff". And i would trust it no problem. I'm all for light weight, my big bike is 32lbs- i'm a weenie, ti spring, ti bolts no tubes, all that crap. But no carbon-except the guide! If i can have a 7" bike that's sub 30 and still as strong as it currently is i'm all for it! My last big bike was 35lbs, HUGE difference in climbing, acceleration, jumping, pumping, smile factor etc.
    Santa Cruz Bronson 2 27.5/Rockshox Pike/Sram XX1
    Salsa Mukluk/Rockshox Bluto/Sram X1

  45. #45
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    Ha ha, Krispy! I had a Y bike also. Won my first DH race on that sucker. I dirt jumped that thing like it was steel and it took a licking. Good times!

    I saw a cutaway of the SantaCruz Blt Carbon and it was impressive. I swear the head tube was atleast 3/8" thick. I would not hesatate to beat it. Im sure its online somewhere.

    I know $ is a big concern with US carbon production, and # of sales. But Turner is based off USA made quality. Im sure were there is a will there is a way.
    Enjoy every ride!

  46. #46
    Bite Me.
    Reputation: cutthroat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Not poseurs on long travel plush 'cause they're too weak and lazy to stand in the rough, but dudes that can throw down on a bike and yes, even fall down.DT
    Rules out me and Tidybeard - damn, I was thinking carbon would be cool.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com
    The deal is, i don't trust any carbon bikes these days because i can't see em cut in half to see what's inside. What grade carbon is being used? How thick? What process? what QC?
    Nothing is stopping you from cutting one in half to see what's inside. You could be the iSuppli of bike frames.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    blah blah blah tough enough for guys that ride like Ink and Lncnvue and Superstock and airwreck and Kid etc etc. Not poseurs on long travel plush 'cause they're too weak and lazy to stand in the rough, but dudes that can throw down on a bike and yes, even fall down.
    DT
    So DT, are you only building bikes for these 5 guys now? Talk about reducing your customer base; you just alienated yourself from the homers/other customers.
    ****

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by m-dub
    Ha ha, Krispy! I had a Y bike also. Won my first DH race on that sucker. I dirt jumped that thing like it was steel and it took a licking. Good times!
    Seems to me Trek is still ahead of everyone, including SC.

    This one in particular has lots of video on their Remedy DT testing:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/2010-tr...view-2009.html

    Also see:
    http://bicycling.com/blogs/millimete...v-and-scratch/

    While the whole of a carbon Remedy frame is built “tougher” than, say, a carbon Top Fuel would be (because the Remedy is much more likely to be punished than a Top Fuel), Trek applied additional effort to a JRA situation that could happen to any innocent rider: a rock kicking up off the front wheel and impacting the down tube. They even developed a test for it: the “Trek All-Mountain Anvil Strike Test” (TAMAST?) which simulates a sharp-edged, 150 gram rock moving at 38 miles per hour - that’s a fairly heavy rock moving pretty damn fast. The anvil test is only step one; after getting whacked, the frame is then subjected to a series of fatigue and ultimate load tests to see if the strike caused damage which will result in a failure over time.
    This battery of tests led Trek to develop an “enhanced” carbon layup which they cap with a thin rubber pad. This protection, what they call “Carbon Armor,” is applied to the underside of the downtube starting at the BB shell and moving up eight inches - where Trek says a rock is most likely to strike. The video below shows the anvil test being carried out (in slow motion) on a frame with Carbon Armor. Trek says that the frame shown in the video went on to pass the subsequent fatigue and ultimate load tests. They also say that the OCLV frames are as strong as, but more durable than, the aluminum Remedy frames. To translate that somewhat enginnerish speak: “strong” is a one-time thing - how big an impact can the frame take before it fails. “Durable” refers to fatigue or how long can a frame take a pounding before it fails.
    Last edited by syadasti; 03-27-2010 at 07:34 AM.

  50. #50
    Monkey Wrench
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    I spent 2 days working in our shop's booth at the Seattle Bike Expo showing off all of the new mountain products that we're selling. Among them were Niners, Turners, Salsas, Ibis', Santa Cruz' and Moots'.

    Most of the conversations with everyday riders and consumers revolved around our new trail system (Duthie Hill), 29ers, and carbon fiber. Most people were really curious and seemingly excited about the idea of having lighter weight, more efficient carbon frames on their mountain bikes, and the Tallboy (at 24 lbs) and Ibis Mojo (at 29lbs built BIG) attracted their attention.

    To a very small minority, it seemed as if carbon fiber had been responsible for the death of a loved one...it was the most evil thing you could possibly think of using for mountain bikes.
    The level of hatred against carbon in the minority of mountain bikers is something that will always be there, but I think the cycling majority has started to realize its benefit. Yes it can break, yes it can cost more, but those negatives are starting to reverse and it is looking like the alloy bikes are now going to cost more and be weaker.

    Ironically enough, the same folks that hated on the carbon, didn't even notice the metal bling that we had in the booth (Sultan and Spot covered with King and Edge, Niner WFO, Niner AIR, etc), their eyes were drawn only to the carbon...

    btw, I decided to move on from my Flux this year in favor of a carbon Tallboy. My Sultan is still in the mix, but couldn't be built light enough (in my spoiled mind) to race on. The Tallboy (29er w/XX) weighs less than my Flux (XTR) and rolls realllllyyy fast. If there was a Turner carbon 29 it would have won out, but market options ruled over brand loyalty...
    Let me fix your bike @ ordinarybicycle.net in Louisville, CO

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