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  1. #1
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    Diggin and Jumpin

    I posted this in the All Mountain forum as well, but figuring yo Turner folk are so into seeing a fricken Turner in action I thought it was a good match. In anycase, been building on a local trail and we finally got it rideable from top to bottom. 11 doubles, 360 berm, and plank drop at the moment. Once we have this line completely finished will start adding off shoots. In anycase, at the end of the evening the sun was setting and it was the deepest red I have ever seen not sure the picture really gives it justice, but it was sick. The best part about this line is that its on top of a hill over looking the bay....
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  2. #2
    Team Sanchez
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    Tasty! Where is that place? BTW, Zaxxon used to be my favorite video game.

  3. #3
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    amazing stuff-I've never seen a bicycle laid over that far; nice.

  4. #4
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    Dumb, dumb, dumb.

    Dumb to build on such high profile public land.

    Dumb to post pictures that make identifying the area so easy.

    There's another "dumb" in there somewhere but I'l stop at two for now.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    There's another "dumb" in there somewhere but I'l stop at two for now.
    ...ooh, oooh, ooooh....I know, I know....it's the brain bucket one....eh?


  6. #6
    Just roll it......
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    Just curious.

    Zaxxon,

    Nice pics.

    Assuming you're the builder of this trail, why would you post pics of it on the interweb for everyone to see? It's obviously not on private land unless I'm missing something. With the background shot, it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. Landmarks basically give the location away. Anyway, after digging a nice trail and spending countless hours on it, it seems like it'd be in your interest to keep this with your primary crew vs. dropping photos on the web first thing.

    If you're not the primary builder, I'll assume a good ole fashioned ass whooping is coming your way (verbal or otherwise). As someone that builds a bit of trail, I can tell you that pic with the background would cause a sh!tstorm in our neck o' the woods since it gives away the locale. Of course, all of our pics have big trees in the background, so it's a non issue.

    Cheers,
    EB

  7. #7
    Now with flavor!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme

    If you're not the primary builder, I'll assume a good ole fashioned ass whooping is coming your way (verbal or otherwise). As someone that builds a bit of trail, I can tell you that pic with the background would cause a sh!tstorm in our neck o' the woods since it gives away the locale. Of course, all of our pics have big trees in the background, so it's a non issue.

    Cheers,
    EB
    Check the norcal forum and look for dirty harrys.....and feel my pain.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  8. #8
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Very very nicely done pics.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Zaxxon,

    Assuming you're the builder of this trail, why would you post pics of it on the interweb for everyone to see?
    It's one of those new-fangled reverse marketing schemes.

    http://wrenchscience.com/Company/Abo...px?stylecode=M

  10. #10
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    Emo kids shouldn't bother wearing helmets anyhow. The world can afford to have more of them suffer head injuries.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Check the norcal forum and look for dirty harrys.....and feel my pain.
    well punk??? do you feel lucky????
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  12. #12
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    the pics are awsome! the skills ya show on the bike are excellent. the lack of helmet is substantially more stupid than postin pics of ridin without one. the trail access thing? well if these guys are right, its gonna be a lonely winter and a helluva long summer for ya. i hope theyre wrong and ya find the good sense to wear a lid tomorrow.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  13. #13
    Hike 'n Bike Nat'l Champ
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Check the norcal forum and look for dirty harrys.....and feel my pain.

    I second your pain, Kidwoo.

  14. #14
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    Something smells skunky. Zachdank.

    cactuscorn, you should lecture those guys at Dirt magazine in the UK. They commonly have pictures of riders without helmets. What's odd is that many of those riders are a little more skilled than the average Homer and maybe even more skilled than the Team Sanchez people. I've heard that Rowen Sorrell actually races world cup pro downhill. So maybe cactuscorn's lecture series hasn't been heard on the world cup pro downhill race circuit. Here's your chance!

  15. #15
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    opinions are like forum trolls who wont admit identity. everyone has one and they all stink. or somethin like that.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  16. #16
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    Time to call in the poachers, land managers, and the dirt jumpers.

    Thanks, Zaxxon! Wrench Science at work being models for the community!

  17. #17
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    Is that Berkeley hills? Go Cal Bears!

    (going down to USC this weekend for the game)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Zaxxon,

    Nice pics.

    Assuming you're the builder of this trail, why would you post pics of it on the interweb for everyone to see? It's obviously not on private land unless I'm missing something. With the background shot, it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. Landmarks basically give the location away. Anyway, after digging a nice trail and spending countless hours on it, it seems like it'd be in your interest to keep this with your primary crew vs. dropping photos on the web first thing.

    If you're not the primary builder, I'll assume a good ole fashioned ass whooping is coming your way (verbal or otherwise). As someone that builds a bit of trail, I can tell you that pic with the background would cause a sh!tstorm in our neck o' the woods since it gives away the locale. Of course, all of our pics have big trees in the background, so it's a non issue.

    Cheers,
    EB
    Ah, the good ole knockem down... First yes I'm the primary builder, second yes countless hours of building a sustainable trail. Weedwacking, clearing overgrown brush, picking up other peoples trash, cutting back burnable weeds, using thrown concrete, putting in berms so there aren't braking bumps, water bars for run off. Why is it that every person building a trail is automatically put in the catagory of building some wicked illegal wood structure. If anything, I'm cleaning up a mess left by passers by who think that its a place to dump there crap.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Time to call in the poachers, land managers, and the dirt jumpers.

    Thanks, Zaxxon! Wrench Science at work being models for the community!
    Yeah, I made a mistake by being stoked about bikes and riding. Sorry for getting some tweaked air on a little double and showing you the sunset. I apologize for my hat not being thick enough for you or not snell approved. I apologize for a trail in a beautiful scenery that is being well maintained and evironmentally friendly. Of course I apologize for letting you all in for some good old riding. I guess talking the talk is way more important than riding. I guess you can just write me off as one of those guys, who loves to ride bikes and work on trails. We all know there are way to many of those anyway. As far as Wrench Science concerned, WS didnt' work on the trail, I did and I had no intention of bringing WS into it. Although now you can be assured that I ride bikes and I'm not some poser on the phone just talking the talk or spending my days on the forums. I'm truly sorry for all the things I've done for the mountain bike community over the last 15 years. Last I'm sorry for being me, a person with dirt in there veins and a life of 2 wheels trying to make something out of nothing.
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  20. #20
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    im sorry man. didnt mean to make ya feel un appriciated here. i just dont like seein folks get hurt. seen it too much in my time and been there myself. yeah, i mean a head injury. it sucked but i got off easy. yer post was full of stoke and the trail is teets! i for one approached this all wrong. sorry.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    I apologize for a trail in a beautiful scenery that is being well maintained and evironmentally friendly.
    Such arrogance coupled with such cluelessness. I would expect it from the groms but not from a supposed adult.

    Why are you so special that you get to build trail on sensitive public land?

    Way to represent!

  22. #22
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    You improved a watershed...

    on held land....

  23. #23
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    pubic land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Such arrogance coupled with such cluelessness. I would expect it from the groms but not from a supposed adult.

    Why are you so special that you get to build trail on sensitive public land?

    Way to represent!
    When did I say it was public land and are you an environmental soil scientist to decide on the sensitivity? What if its private land that I have the ok from the landowner to build on? Huh, never thought about that one did you? Yes, people do ask to build trails. Once again throwing me to the wolves from pure speculation. I can see you would be a good riding buddy, I can clearly see your angst and anger, but throwing out straws on a few pictures is hardly worth it. Keep in mind the big picture here. Riding bikes and working on trails is not illegal and throwing it around so loosely isn't helping us. Part of the problem with trail closure is a poorly designed, highly illegal trail. I'm not doing either one, so if you want to pick up on one of the other comments about not wearing a helmet, you got me, but otherwise your points and comments are useless.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    When did I say it was public land and are you an environmental soil scientist to decide on the sensitivity? What if its private land that I have the ok from the landowner to build on? Huh, never thought about that one did you?
    Of course I did.

    Unfortunately for you the pictures you posted clearly show that you built in (insert park name here).

    It's sensitive due to the never ending access issues that riders face on those lands.

    Your lame attempt at a snow job is really weak.

  25. #25
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    Ah, the good ole knockem down... First yes I'm the primary builder, second yes countless hours of building a sustainable trail. Weedwacking, clearing overgrown brush, picking up other peoples trash, cutting back burnable weeds, using thrown concrete, putting in berms so there aren't braking bumps, water bars for run off. Why is it that every person building a trail is automatically put in the catagory of building some wicked illegal wood structure. If anything, I'm cleaning up a mess left by passers by who think that its a place to dump there crap.
    Zaxxon,

    The pics are rad. The scenery as well as the riding. I wasn't trying to rain on your parade and I'm not trying to say "don't post pics" or be stoked about your spot. The pics themselves are f'ing awesome. Also, personally, I don't care who you work with....you don't seem like you're trying to represent anyone here other than yourself and help fuel the stoke.

    I'm just saying I build trail as well and I'm not throwing any pics up that would give away the location of them which is what that one pic essentially did.......at the very least, it gave the general area away. You mentioned 11 doubles, berms, etc. and I KNOW how many manhours that takes to build.....moving dirt is a lot of thankless f'ing work. As a result, I was saying that posting the pic that might give it away (i.e. help with the destruction of your cool trail) might not be the best idea. If it's your trail and you put all the time in to flag it, clear it and dig it, then that's your call and you can do whatever you want My comment about "if it isn't your trail" is totally moot then.

    I'll be digging with FM and other buddies on a ride tonight, so I know what goes into the process. I guess I was more curious why so many of the gnar-cal folks are anxious to throw up revealing vids and images of their 'secret' trails and then piss and moan when said trails either get shutdown or bulldozed. Just a curious observation.

    Cheers,
    EBX

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Of course I did.

    Unfortunately for you the pictures you posted clearly show that you built in (insert park name here).

    It's sensitive due to the never ending access issues that riders face on those lands.

    Your lame attempt at a snow job is really weak.
    Do you really think I would be able to build doubles and berms in a Public Park? Your a tool for believing it. To be dead honest the trail is on private land, because of the massive electrical towers it can't be deemed safe for public use. The land is dead, except for a few dog runners, and a few people who believe they can dump there crap on it. Yes, it sure looks like a great piece of land for the million dollar view, but the power towers makes it unusable as a park, residency or even an industrial park. Its just a funky piece of parcel with a sick, well made line, and a great view. Which is the whole reason I posted it. I know you can't handle that there is a piece of land that can be built on that has a great view, but now you know.
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  27. #27
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    Note the subject bar on post #23.

    Unfortunately, Zach and Wrench Science are teaching and spreading the lesson that you should be able to build where you make it pretty and take pretty pictures. The helmet thing is a whole different issue. This in theory is nice, but the fact remains that scores of BMX kids and dirtjumpers are already doing this and creating havoc for others. To boot, people like Zach want to be seen and acknowledged for their efforts for the good of the common man on other people's property. Then these areas get flattened by the land manager and the excuse is always, "Bbbbbut I put so much hard work into it! I used IMBA's trailbuilding guidelines! It's completely different from the jumps the kids make! We actually moved a car to clear land and now they destroy it...but why???"

    And if you had permission to build, you wouldn't have made a defensive response (AKA I know something you don't) such as, ""What if I did get permission?" Did you get permission from Wrench Science to declare that you poached on a trail and built some pretty stuff without permission. This isn't like the movies. The manager isn't going to walk up to you, pat you on the back and say, "Son, good job...this can stay!" just like in those cheezy 80's movies.

  28. #28
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    Nice pix.

    Heey, if I can find your trail, can I ride it?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Zaxxon,

    The pics are rad. The scenery as well as the riding. I wasn't trying to rain on your parade and I'm not trying to say "don't post pics" or be stoked about your spot. The pics themselves are f'ing awesome. Also, personally, I don't care who you work with....you don't seem like you're trying to represent anyone here other than yourself and help fuel the stoke.

    I'm just saying I build trail as well and I'm not throwing any pics up that would give away the location of them which is what that one pic essentially did.......at the very least, it gave the general area away. You mentioned 11 doubles, berms, etc. and I KNOW how many manhours that takes to build.....moving dirt is a lot of thankless f'ing work. As a result, I was saying that posting the pic that might give it away (i.e. help with the destruction of your cool trail) might not be the best idea. If it's your trail and you put all the time in to flag it, clear it and dig it, then that's your call and you can do whatever you want My comment about "if it isn't your trail" is totally moot then.

    I'll be digging with FM and other buddies on a ride tonight, so I know what goes into the process. I guess I was more curious why so many of the gnar-cal folks are anxious to throw up revealing vids and images of their 'secret' trails and then piss and moan when said trails either get shutdown or bulldozed. Just a curious observation.

    Cheers,
    EBX
    The trail isn't illegal, but private, I never said it was illegal and not sure why everyone assumed so. I never tried to keep it a secret and as open as it is, it would be impossible to pretend that it was. The cops have stopped by and said, "just don't bury any bodies and you're ok.". I try to build or maintain trails that can be ridden. I'm not out cutting trails through national forest or protected land.

    I'm not out telling everyone the address to keep it on the local side, but I'm not building super secret, illegal trails, because they are more likely to get ripped down and just plain aren't smart. I build trails to ride, the more people riding it the better, because a well ridden, well maintained trail is the best trail. This trail is completely out in the open, no trees right off the road.

    This assumption that all trail building is bad, and if there is a good view it must be illegal is really over the top. Look at Canada the whole north shore is built on National Forest and for a time Canada actually had a government funded trail crew. Because of all the Nazi's sabotaging trails and so many places being shut down they have oppressed the US mountain bikers into thinking "Don't build trails". All I'm saying is you can build trails, you should build trails and jumps and berms, just do it smart and on land that allows it. There are a million places you can't build, but I also know there are places you can. I've found one for myself and I was sharing it with the Turner community. Unfortunately some people have a hard time swallowing it.
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  30. #30
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    You Bet!

    [QUOTE=Random Drivel]Nice pix.

    Heey, if I can find your trail, can I ride it? [/QUOTE
    Hell yeah, rip it up, just clean up after yourself.
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  31. #31
    Oh, So Interesting!
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    Nice pics!!!

    Thanks for posting!
    .




    Strava: turn off your dork logger when you're not on sanctioned trails.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    The trail isn't illegal, but private, I never said it was illegal and not sure why everyone assumed so. I never tried to keep it a secret and as open as it is, it would be impossible to pretend that it was. The cops have stopped by and said, "just don't bury any bodies and you're ok.". I try to build or maintain trails that can be ridden. I'm not out cutting trails through national forest or protected land.

    I'm not out telling everyone the address to keep it on the local side, but I'm not building super secret, illegal trails, because they are more likely to get ripped down and just plain aren't smart. I build trails to ride, the more people riding it the better, because a well ridden, well maintained trail is the best trail. This trail is completely out in the open, no trees right off the road.

    This assumption that all trail building is bad, and if there is a good view it must be illegal is really over the top. Look at Canada the whole north shore is built on National Forest and for a time Canada actually had a government funded trail crew. Because of all the Nazi's sabotaging trails and so many places being shut down they have oppressed the US mountain bikers into thinking "Don't build trails". All I'm saying is you can build trails, you should build trails and jumps and berms, just do it smart and on land that allows it. There are a million places you can't build, but I also know there are places you can. I've found one for myself and I was sharing it with the Turner community. Unfortunately some people have a hard time swallowing it.
    Love how you compare two different countries with very different laws and governing bodies together when most everyone knows how much of a PITA legal matters are.

    If Canada is so great, build there. Here, do the right thing and get permission. The cops giving the seal of approval doesn't mean dick. It's the land manager and again, you're blowing smoke up everyone's ass by talking about this and that, while your earlier statement was eluding to you getting permission.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Very very nicely done pics.
    I second that.. awesome pics

  34. #34
    Bite Me.
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    First the CF rants, now this...what's happening to this forum? I think it's time to take a long vacation from Homerland, ride and ski more,and spend less time behind the keyboard - adios amigos.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    This assumption that all trail building is bad, and if there is a good view it must be illegal is really over the top.
    So who exactly at the City of El Cerrito gave you permission to build trail on Hillside Natural Area lands?



  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    This assumption that all trail building is bad, and if there is a good view it must be illegal is really over the top.
    You and I are in agreement. I don't think all trail building is bad either. In fact, the stuff we are working on now should be around for a long time. Even if it's not an "official" trail to begin with, if a trails built well (with sustainability in mind) and ridden enough, they very likely could become official trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    Look at Canada the whole north shore is built on National Forest and for a time Canada actually had a government funded trail crew. Because of all the Nazi's sabotaging trails and so many places being shut down they have oppressed the US mountain bikers into thinking "Don't build trails".
    The stuff on the shore, as you say, is all built on queen's land and most of it is in the provincial parks. Most of them were "illegally" built and have now become part of the trail network around there. Even today, there are lots of trails that the tourists to the Shore never see and are deemed 'illegal' by the powers that be. Those could become official some day as well......who knows?

    I've come to know a chunk of the trailbuilders in WA over the last couple of years. Most of them are super cool and ultra laid back. They're not trying to 'rape the land' or 'kill our sport' as a lot of people accuse them. Most of them are just strong riders that want more challenging trails to ride on and that isn't really available in our traditional "xc" trail systems today. These people aren't criminals OR idiots....most are respected members of the community (lumping myself in that group, of course ) .

    I'm not a zealot about keeping a trail to myself (although I know some folks that are fiercely that way).....rather, I hope folks get to enjoy any new trails we build. Will the word eventually get out? Sure, but I'd prefer that groundswell took place organically via word of mouth. That's me though and your position is totally cool.

    Have fun with your trail. Looks good.

    Cheers,
    EBX

  37. #37
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    So helmet issue aside, basically you've got the original poster saying the land is private land and other posters here saying it is public land and calling him a liar, and going back and forth.

    Anybody got any proof either way?
    Do Starbucks employees take coffee breaks?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwolmarans
    Anybody got any proof either way?
    Yes.

    I'll give Zach a chance to come clean though.

  39. #39
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    ct: check yer pm's if yer still around please.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  40. #40
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    the last post

    ok...this is it..the last post....the land is PG&E property, it runs under enormous power towers. Its an useable parcel, I spoke with PG&E as they were plowing and weedwacking the parcel about 3 years ago. They do this every year to cut back the weeds. There was an existing "trail" that ran through the property that bmx kids had built a few jumps on a few years before, they had no problem with building jumps as long as we weren't trashing the place. We added a trashcan on the side of the road and when PG goes through and weed wacks they trim along the jumps as well. So NO I don't have written permission, I have a verbal permission to build as long as we aren't being stupid about it. Of course now that I've posted this I'm sure some of you will try to make the point of getting it removed.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    First the CF rants, now this...what's happening to this forum?
    the koolaid went rancid...

  42. #42
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    The employees and technicians working around the towers are not mangers or supervisors. They are subordinates. Verbal permission from them still constitutes illegal use.

    Still blowing smoke up our asses.

    Next issue is you're probably older than I am, but I will still go ahead and say kids don't understand right and wrong anymore. They only understand "I" and "ME" and "NOW" and their side of the story. It's painfully evident that Zach doesn't know what makes him wrong and why it makes Wrench Science look bad on several fronts.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    ok...this is it..the last post....the land is PG&E property, it runs under enormous power towers.
    Interesting. Unbelievable but nonetheless an interesting response.





    Same trees, same colored roofs, powerlines, etc.



    What did you hope to gain by lying about where you built the bootleg trail?

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    All you F%^Ktards complaining should just STFU. Let the dude build his trails. It's such a shame its come to this. He's right look at canada, they are way ahead of the gold ole' US of A...in so many friggin ways. This just isn't about biking, it started with the ski industry first. Look what a thriving free skiing scene this country has....If you stay inbounds. We have people dying in a bullsh*t war, the world is overpopulated, were slowly killing ourselves with all of our toxic waste we dispose of so we can be good little friggin consumers....But don't you dare build stunts, or cut some trail into our pretty little hillside All you poser punks should think about that the next time you drive your fossil fuel buring rig UP the friggin road so you can roll your lazy arse down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Interesting. Unbelievable but nonetheless an interesting response.





    Same trees, same colored roofs, powerlines, etc.



    What did you hope to gain by lying about where you built the bootleg trail?

    looks like power lines to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    All you F%^Ktards complaining should just STFU. Let the dude build his trails. It's such a shame its come to this. He's right look at canada, they are way ahead of the gold ole' US of A...in so many friggin ways. This just isn't about biking, it started with the ski industry first. Look what a thriving free skiing scene this country has....If you stay inbounds. We have people dying in a bullsh*t war, the world is overpopulated, were slowly killing ourselves with all of our toxic waste we dispose of so we can be good little friggin consumers....But don't you dare build stunts, or cut some trail into our pretty little hillside All you poser punks should think about that the next time you drive your fossil fuel buring rig UP the friggin road so you can roll your lazy arse down.


    p.s. Which part of "Hillside Natural Area" do you find confusing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete


    p.s. Which part of "Hillside Natural Area" do you find confusing?

    "Natural Hillside Area" in the bay area = "Toxic Cover-up"

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    Jrock,

    What powers your vehicle?

    In fact, the plastics you use in your everyday life...where did they come from?

  49. #49
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    ............

    JMH

    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    All you F%^Ktards complaining should just STFU. Let the dude build his trails. It's such a shame its come to this. He's right look at canada, they are way ahead of the gold ole' US of A...in so many friggin ways. This just isn't about biking, it started with the ski industry first. Look what a thriving free skiing scene this country has....If you stay inbounds. We have people dying in a bullsh*t war, the world is overpopulated, were slowly killing ourselves with all of our toxic waste we dispose of so we can be good little friggin consumers....But don't you dare build stunts, or cut some trail into our pretty little hillside All you poser punks should think about that the next time you drive your fossil fuel buring rig UP the friggin road so you can roll your lazy arse down.

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    pow lines

    Here you go, you obviously want to see the powerlines for yourself.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Still doesn't make it right. You keep going back and forth between implying you spoke to a land manager to speaking to some maintenance guys, to now it's abandoned land that means nothing to anyone. Next thing is you decide to post to the world about it. Fantastic!

    You just don't get it. You really need to grow up and I don't mean through sad emo poems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Jrock,

    What powers your vehicle?

    In fact, the plastics you use in your everyday life...where did they come from?
    The same damn ones you do. I guess you missed the point that there are bigger things for ALL of us to worry about than some kid stoked about his DJ's and his TURNER. The guy did nothing wrong. It doesn't look like he built some gnarcore downhill trail, nor did he build in a protected area. Leave the kid alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Still doesn't make it right. You keep going back and forth between implying you spoke to a land manager to speaking to some maintenance guys, to now it's abandoned land that means nothing to anyone. Next thing is you decide to post to the world about it. Fantastic!

    You just don't get it. You really need to grow up and I don't mean through sad emo poems.
    Nope still the same as I was saying from the beginning. I spoke with PG&E about 3 years ago, no problems. Have spoken to 2 police officers, no problems. Powerlines on the parcel, making it unuseable. Trail is completely visible from the road with no intention of being "secretive" or illegal. The only people upset about this trail is Mountain Bikers in the Turner forum. As now its completely wide open with a map to the trail I cordially invite everybody to come out. I invite you all to come dig with me I'll be up there this sunday ripping my Turner.
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    He's not exactly a kid. Look him up on the Wrench Science site.

    He only acts like a kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    The guy did nothing wrong.
    So building in a city open space, without permission from the city, is acceptible in your opinion?

    Zach, so much for "
    this is it..the last post" eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaxxon
    Powerlines on the parcel, making it unuseable.
    Huh? It's used as open space, including legit trails.

    Using your "logic" anywhere there are powerlines but no buildings is ripe for trail building, regardless of what land the power lines cross.

    Silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    So building in a city open space, without permission from the city, is acceptible in your opinion?

    Zach, so much for "
    this is it..the last post" eh?

    Did you ever build BMX jumps when you were a kid? I asume you have done everything in life with permission.

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    Join us in NJ. There are million dollar homes underneath "huge powerlines" there. Next time I'm there, I'll take a shot from a skylight. It's actually quite cool.

    Zaxxon is not a kid. Kids are dumb and do things. He's an adult and the co-founder of wrench science. That's why there are distinctions between adult and minors when crimes are committed.

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    It appears that I live maybe a mile from that trail. Anyone around here that hasn't attended a community meeting on trail use really doesn't know what fun they are missing. Please don't take the children assuming a lesson in civics will be a good idea...

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    The land in question..

    is a deeded parcel with legally binding agreement that restricts access and improvement ofthe land. Your improvement of the land in question land makes PG & E LIABLE for anything that happens on that land. I find it REALLY hard to except that the PG&E legal unit gave you the right to improve the land since the recent BMX stuf fthat was there some 6 years a go was TORN DOWN BY PG&E.

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    [QUOTE=zaxxon]
    Quote Originally Posted by Random Drivel
    Nice pix.

    Heey, if I can find your trail, can I ride it? [/QUOTE
    Hell yeah, rip it up, just clean up after yourself.
    Noted . . .

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    Some of you guys are REALLY uptight.

    Why does everyone jump to conclusions so fast?

    This isn't the first time there have been dirt jumps built on private land with questionable legality. Sometimes they can exist in a quasi illegal state for years without problems. It is not uncommon for private landowners (timber co, power co, etc) to turn a blind eye and let it be. Maybe they can't really sign off and say it's cool, but maybe they think as long as there are no problems, then off the record it is ok. I know of a couple of prime examples - fairly well known areas. You might have even seen them on a video or in a magazine. So get off the guys back already. It sounds like he scoped the area, things are cool, time to build some jumps. Big deal!

    Somebody sculpted a big 3 sided tabletop in an abandoned lot in my neighborhood this summer. Right off the main drag, out in the open, next to a busy intersection. It was pretty sweet. Unfortunately its existance was temporary; construction of a new building has started and it is no longer there. I'm glad it was built though, it was fun while it lasted. No harm done. To all the people digging in abandoned lots, thanks for your work.

    Hypothetical question: is it bad to cut a trail in an area which is slated to be clearcut?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Interesting. Unbelievable but nonetheless an interesting response.


    What did you hope to gain by lying about where you built the bootleg trail?
    Hope you feel like a big man now that you made your point. You are a tool. I say ride em hard before Pete gets up there with a shovel and tears them down himself....the tool that he is.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    Did you ever build BMX jumps when you were a kid? I asume you have done everything in life with permission.
    Way to not answer the question.

    Again, "
    So building in a city open space, without permission from the city, is acceptible in your opinion?"

    After all, in your mind he did nothing wrong, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKULLY
    I say ride em hard before Pete gets up there with a shovel and tears them down himself....the tool that he is.
    What an incredibly stupid thing to type.

    What you and your
    fellow out-of-towner, clueless wankers don't understand is the "state" of trail access and conflicts in the immediate area. Conflicts with other trail users as well as conflicts with the various land management entities.

    This kind of building activity is just the kind of selfish, myopic idiocy that is thrown in the face of folks that spend their free time trying to keep singletrack legal, and spend their time trying to open new trail for bikes.


    The fact that Zach has continued to lie about the trail just confirms the negative stereotype that many anti-MTB zealots seek to foster...

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    [/FONT]
    What an incredibly stupid thing to type.

    What you and your
    fellow out-of-towner, [FONT=Georgia]clueless wankers don't understand is the "state" of trail access and conflicts in the immediate area. Conflicts with other trail users as well as conflicts with the various land management entities.

    So...posting a map of the spot was an incredibly smart thing to do?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKULLY
    So...posting a map of the spot was an incredibly smart thing to do?
    The pictures and Zach's description of the location had already "outed" the site of his illegal trail.

    The real impact is on the ground in that it's in such a high profile area, with a bunch of militant "land protector" types operating on the North end of the same Nature Area seeking to prevent development of a private parcel (a real one in this case, not a fictitious one like Zach has attempted to construct).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    The pictures and Zach's description of the location had already "outed" the site of his illegal trail.

    The real impact is on the ground in that it's in such a high profile area, with a bunch of militant "land protector" types operating on the North end of the same Nature Area seeking to prevent development of a private parcel (a real one in this case, not a fictitious one like Zach has attempted to construct).

    way to help trail access. Post a map so eveyone can find it. It doesn't even sound like a trail.

    I lived in the bay for 8 years...was just out 2 weeks ago. There is alot more to worry about in el-cerito than a few dj's on PG & E land.

    And to answer your original question, No I don't think he did anything wrong.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    There is alot more to worry about in el-cerito than a few dj's on PG & E land.
    Still confused I see.

    Pay attention to the "Hillside Natural Area" part in green. That's where the illegal digging is going on. It's City Open Space.






    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    And to answer your original question, No I don't think he did anything wrong.

    Got it.

    Digging on high-profile public land in a sensitive area without permission is cool in your book.

    Sad, but at least folks know where you stand.

    It's funny that you, Zach and other folks are trying to spin my comments as some kind of indictment of any and all building. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There are plenty of remote locations, in areas that aren't anywhere near as sensitive as the east bay hills, where folks have built great trails on "questionable" land.

    The difference here is that he's dug his bootleg trail in such a sensitive area and also posted pictures that make the area easily identifiable, in addition to the pictures exposing the trouble that he has with telling the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Still confused I see.

    Pay attention to the "Hillside Natural Area" part in green. That's where the illegal digging is going on. It's City Open Space.







    Got it.

    Digging on high-profile public land in a sensitive area without permission is cool in your book.

    Sad, but at least folks know where you stand.

    It's funny that you, Zach and other folks are trying to spin my comments as some kind of indictment of any and all building. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There are plenty of remote locations, in areas that aren't anywhere near as sensitive as the east bay hills, where folks have built great trails on "questionable" land.

    The difference here is that he's dug his bootleg trail in such a sensitive area and also posted pictures that make the area easily identifiable, in addition to the pictures exposing the trouble that he has with telling the truth.

    all that land is toxic. especially el-ceritto

  70. #70
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    Nice photos and this sounds like a great trail!
    Since this thread is getting into trail building ethics I would like to add my thoughts.
    To build now and ask later can backfire and make land owners/managers limit riding or keep bikes off their land altogether. Asking permission before building may do the same, but with the possibility to regroup and try again. The time involved getting permission can turn people off. Going to meetings and getting support for bike trails is not a lot of fun. I would rather be out riding, but if working for new trails helps others get out on their bikes it is worth it to me.
    I got a heads up from a member of Mendocino Coast Cyclists that someone posting on MTBR was planning to build a Free Ride trail on Jackson Demonstration State Forest. Having worked with JDSF building trails over the last three years I know that management will not allow trails that have drops, jumps, or structures at this time because of liability and environmental concerns. If built it would have been taken out and made problems getting new trails approved. Iím now working with the MTBR member to get a Bike Skills Park built on the Mendocino Coast. This will be a long and difficult project. Iím not sure he will stay interested until it is completed but know he will learn something from the experience. The Bike Park will not be trail he had envisioned although it will hopefully be challenging, and possibly help get land owners/managers in our area agreeable to free ride trails by showing this type trail can be built to manage risks and not be environmentally damaging.
    Folks in large urban areas are the leaders for introducing new types of riding and ways to work with landowners and other users. I hope you will keep openly sharing your experiences so others may learn.

  71. #71
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    I love mountain biking, so I sure love new trails.. and also believe in building sustainable and permanent ones. However why can we all coexist? Why the US and A is all about conflicts? See lawsuits, public disputes between parties, see WAR! I agree we have to follow rules but sometimes they have to be broken and risks taken (as long in the breaking them doesn't hurt anybody and restricts other people's right). I don't know all the facts, maybe never will, but it's a common thing to see this type of conlflics. I would have PM Zaxxon first, before flamming Him in public. His intentions seemed good and true to the sport we all love.

    Damn!! Go get your Turner's and RIDE y'all !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relayden
    I love mountain biking, so I sure love new trails.. and also believe in building sustainable and permanent ones. However why can we all coexist? Why the US and A is all about conflicts? See lawsuits, public disputes between parties, see WAR! I agree we have to follow rules but sometimes they have to be broken and risks taken (as long in the breaking them doesn't hurt anybody and restricts other people's right). I don't know all the facts, maybe never will, but it's a common thing to see this type of conlflics. I would have PM Zaxxon first, before flamming Him in public. His intentions seemed good and true to the sport we all love.

    Damn!! Go get your Turner's and RIDE y'all !!!
    Werd!

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    The quickest way to get yourself out of a hole is to STOP DIGGING.

    Who assigned you guardian of private land?. Do you have a special interest in the power lines around the area?
    Motivated people like ZAXXON that are not causing issues shouldnít be condemned by people like you!

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    Last time I checked, authorities need and ask for the public's help in helping with investigations and enforcement because it is the responsibility of everyone living here to help keep order.

    I know it seems crazy, but going a lot further, people that look away from crimes being committed can be charged with a crime for not saying anything!

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    Ya, murder, crack, meth-labs etc etc..

    We really need to come down hard on people riding bikes and dirt piles that they created on trashy land...

    Give me a frikin break! .

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    Incredible pics, highly skilled rider, bit_chen sunset awesome bike. What else is there to say then??????

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    The only thing dumber than posting this trail for bikers as a whole was that Bryce dude in the Marzocchi interbike video. He introduces the Z1 and describes freeriding as:

    "...you do whatever you want...you skid, you tear up the earth, and you go crazy"

    Quite responsible.

    Video link

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    Join us in NJ. There are million dollar homes underneath "huge powerlines" there.
    Federal Law...

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    Morganville.

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    Got an approximate street address to Google Earth it? As someone that is involved in the process of getting approval to build part of a parking lot under a powerline, I am am seriously intersted in seeing it. Not in a "calling you out" kind of way, but in a "look how they do it in Jersey" kind of way.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The only thing dumber than posting this trail for bikers as a whole was that Bryce dude in the Marzocchi interbike video. He introduces the Z1 and describes freeriding as:

    "...you do whatever you want...you skid, you tear up the earth, and you go crazy"

    Quite responsible.

    Video link
    What does that have to do with this thread?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncbiker
    Got an approximate street address to Google Earth it? As someone that is involved in the process of getting approval to build part of a parking lot under a powerline, I am am seriously intersted in seeing it. Not in a "calling you out" kind of way, but in a "look how they do it in Jersey" kind of way.
    Here you go. The towers are in plain view, no hills, no fencing. They are simply in the backyards of these homes.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Pete is having a good time with the more ignorant posters.

    As to the question of informal legality, Zach and his supporters should consider the notion that even though building trails is a whole lot better than running a meth lab or molesting small children, there is still potential for civil disturbance and social friction arising from building trails in a technically illegal although informally possibly legal manner.

    As Pete said, when there are ongoing issues of trail access, you do not help the cause of trail access by building without full legal permission. You might even hurt the cause. You might be furthering the support for morons like Mike Vandeman or whatever that local Bay Area anti-MTB joker's name is.

    I'm not commenting on the quality of the trail, the rider, or the pictures. All three seem very impressive, top-notch.

    I'm commenting only on the wisdom of not getting fully legal permission and then taking it further, and posting pictures on a public forum.

    The fact that Pete raises excellent posts, and he is local, shows that there's potential for serious problems. Pete's a fellow MTB rider. Imagine what a MTB hater could do with Pete's level of knowledge of the area.

    Think about it.

  84. #84
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    Here you go. The towers are in plain view, no hills, no fencing. They are simply in the backyards of these homes.
    Ahhh, when I read "underneath" I was taking it to literally mean underneath. what is shown in that picture is very common. The lines are probably a couple hundred feet from the house.

    thread hijack over...

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    Look at the distance estimation ruler...

  86. #86
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    Pete, get a life.

    Ride on Zaxxon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTP
    Pete, get a life.
    Ah, the ole "your posts upset me so you need to get a life" silliness. I love that one.

    Since you're so concerned, I do have great life, thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by MTP
    Ride on Zaxxon!
    I agree. Ride on Zach.

    Just stop digging on high-profile public land and resist the urge to post pictures of those illegal digs on the net.

    p.s. Using the street name as part of the file name isn't too bright either.

  88. #88
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    Pete, in all seriousness, why does this bother you so much? I know email is an odd way to communicate. People donít know who exactly they are talking to... Kind of like beer muscles....

    I just want to make it clear that I donít see why someone using land under power lines that is trashed is something you call "on high-profile public land "? I think this is why youíre seeing a bit of anger towards your relentless jabs at Zaxxon.. IMHO you immediately responded sharply negative to Zaxxons thread. Why? Do you just hate non-xc bikers ?

    ďDumb, dumb, dumb.

    Dumb to build on such high profile public land.

    Dumb to post pictures that make identifying the area so easy.

    There's another "dumb" in there somewhere but I'l stop at two for now.
    ď


    This isnít Park land. It wonít get any one but Zaxxon in trouble if that....

    Of all the battles to wage why do you target this sort of person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by baconstrip
    I know email is an odd way to communicate.
    What does email have to do with this discussion. I haven't sent you any emails have I?

    Quote Originally Posted by baconstrip
    I just want to make it clear that I donít see why someone using land under power lines that is trashed is something you call "on high-profile public land "?
    Quote Originally Posted by baconstrip
    This isnít Park land.
    Did you read the entire thread? It seems that a few of you folks have some enormous problems with reading (seeing?) comprehension.





    Again "Hillside Natural Area." It's an El Cerrito city park. As I wrote earlier, building in a city park in the Oakland/Berkeley hills area is just plain stupid in light of the trail conflicts in the area.

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    Jesu h christ pete.. You have no tolerance do you.. email/chat-sites etc... Are you really 41 years old ?

    Call it what you want, Power lines trash etc..

    I really just wanted to hear your side of the story to understand the issues.. In an odd way you just did...

    Have a good one..................

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    Quote Originally Posted by baconstrip
    Call it what you want, Power lines trash etc..
    Since it's a city park aka "public land" I'll just keep on calling it what it is. Why does that continue to confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by baconstrip
    I really just wanted to hear your side of the story to understand the issues..
    Next time I would suggest that you read the entire thread, a few times if necessary (for comprehension), and you can save yourself some frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by baconstrip
    Have a good one..................

    Always!

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Since it's a city park aka "public land" I'll just keep on calling it what it is. Why does that continue to confuse you?



    Next time I would suggest that you read the entire thread, a few times if necessary (for comprehension), and you can save yourself some frustration.



    Always!
    All the best trails in the bay area are Illegal.

  93. #93
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    hey JrockFeltaz,

    Maybe you should consider dropping the poseur 'tude. Bragging about riding illegal trails might get you some white trash tail because you're a "Bad Boy," but it's not impressive in an area where it literally threatens trail access.

  94. #94
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! It was Colonel Mustard!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    looks like power lines to me!
    ...In the Library! With the Candlestick!!

    - -benja- -

  95. #95
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well With threads like this....

    Who needs ornery land managers and rangers!

    Step AWAY from the computer!

    Increase the peace!

    Pump the positivity!

    Go ride your BIKE!

    - -benja- -

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chan
    hey JrockFeltaz,

    Maybe you should consider dropping the poseur 'tude. Bragging about riding illegal trails might get you some white trash tail because you're a "Bad Boy," but it's not impressive in an area where it literally threatens trail access.

    I never said I rode illegal trails, I just stated most of the good ones were illegal. "Whigger" huh....Thats original.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chan
    hey JrockFeltaz,

    Maybe you should consider dropping the poseur 'tude. Bragging about riding illegal trails might get you some white trash tail because you're a "Bad Boy," but it's not impressive in an area where it literally threatens trail access.
    Your first post in this thread was good. This one, not so good. Once the name calling starts, I tend to tune people out.

  98. #98
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    After reading this thread I think I am going to get my shovel out and head down to the local city park and start digging. I'll post the pics and see if any of you tools can uncover its location with google maps.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by fasterthanu
    After reading this thread I think I am going to get my shovel out and head down to the local city park and start digging. I'll post the pics and see if any of you tools can uncover its location with google maps.

    We should have a contest. I'm sure Pete would win. He seems to be the google map king

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    All the best trails in the bay area are Illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    I just stated most of the good ones were illegal.
    That's funny.

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