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  1. #1
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
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    Did Turner drop horst for greedy reasons?

    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  2. #2
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    One more thought...

    To recap - we know that he used to pay royalties to Specialized. He doesn't now. That saves him money. That is a indisputable fact. So the only way to prove he isn't being greedy is if he passes saving along to us, the consumer, by reducing the price of his frames, since he doesn't have to pay royalties anymore.

    If he does't reduce the price of his frames, than my conclusion stands correct- he just bought a new mansion and we have to pay for it.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  3. #3
    rr
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    Your missing a VERY large piece of the puzzle, does ICT ring a bell?

  4. #4
    Fragilie
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    Wouldn't you rather be riding your bike than running your mouth? I know I would but, I'm on the injured reserve list.

  5. #5
    post-ride specialist
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Your missing a VERY large piece of the puzzle, does ICT ring a bell?

    Hey, did you get that 6-pack/RFX yet?

  6. #6
    t66
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    Welcome to the Turner Board Comrade. The frames are so awesome we care not that he's a "Capitalist Pig".

  7. #7
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    Hey, did you get that 6-pack/RFX yet?
    Not yet, hopefully in a few weeks. They had some white and grey in stock but I'm holding out for the green ano.

  8. #8
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    Turner is a business not a charity non profit org.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.

    Remember one thing. To stay in business you alway have to do better than the year before. If DT does not generate enough cash flow to pay his obligations he will go bankrupt or someone else will buy him in (Like Tony). He did what he had to do. The royalties that he had to pay to Specializd and TE come right out of the bottom line. He came up with a way to save some cash, save the company, and pass, the best he could, some similar (TNT) technology to us. The bikes are still well made and if 1mm difference matters to you then go buy an Ellsworth.

    The worst thing that can happen is for the company to go bankrupt or a hostile take over by Pacific bicycles. Remember when GT's were cool???.......
    Sit and spin my ass...

  9. #9
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
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    Hilarious! To even suggest that this was done for profitable purposes has got ya drawers all bunched up.

    Pathetic.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  10. #10
    MK_
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    Actually, DT made a post a while where he said something along the lines of the payments for the royalties came straight from the profits. Apparently, over the years the materials and manufacturing costs have gone up and he kept the frame prices unchanges, so he paid royalties out of his own pocket, so to speak.

    You should also keep in mind that when DT started the company, V-brakes were king. Horst Link was invented in that era, where the brake moment happened around the rim by the seatstay arch.

    _MK
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    "No man goes before his time -- unless the boss leaves early."
    -- Marx, Groucho

  11. #11
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hilarious! To even suggest that this was done for profitable purposes has got ya drawers all bunched up.

    Pathetic.
    You need to pull your head out of your ***, ZR was saying he did it for financial reasons, but not to pay for a new mansion or Ferrari, maybe he decided he didn't want to contribute to his competitior's Ferrari collection. I'll say it again, does ICT ring a bell or are you that clueless?
    Last edited by rr; 05-20-2006 at 10:24 AM.

  12. #12
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
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    Look, I'm all for capitalism. Good for DT. I hope he is driving a porshe. I'm sure he deserves it. After all, he's the one that took all the risk when he started his company.

    I was ONLY suggesting that perhaps is conceivable that he dropped the horst link to keep profits up. If so, my point is proven. He keeps his profits up, and we ride slightly, (perhaps barely) less performing bikes.

    Thanks DT!
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  13. #13
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Did Turner drop Horst for greedy reasons?
    I heard it's because Horst wasn't a good kisser

    Life....the original terminal illness

  14. #14
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    QUOTE: Did Turner drop horst for greedy reasons?

    Yawn.

    Alternative Response (thx to Steve Martin): Oh I get it......it's one of those profit deals!
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.

    It really doesnt make a difference mr. troll, the HL and the TNT will spank your Bullit so just get one!
    Pearl & Paiste, weapons of mass percussion

  16. #16
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
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    Actually I don't ride a Bullit anymore. I ride an 06 Specialized Enduro Expert. Love the bike, but because Specialized is so common, and I've heard such good things about Turner, I'd like to check on out. But a buddy of mine just bought a new 5 spot, and got the '05 since that was the last year with horst. Alot of ppl are gobbling last years before it too late.

    I don't if I'd buy one now. I guess I'm just getting tired of the higher and higher prices for bike frames these days, with companies cutting corners more and more.

    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  17. #17
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
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    "...I'd like to check on out. "

    Oops, meant check it out...
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  18. #18
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Actually I don't ride a Bullit anymore. I ride an 06 Specialized Enduro Expert. Love the bike, but because Specialized is so common, and I've heard such good things about Turner, I'd like to check on out. But a buddy of mine just bought a new 5 spot, and got the '05 since that was the last year with horst. Alot of ppl are gobbling last years before it too late.

    I don't if I'd buy one now. I guess I'm just getting tired of the higher and higher prices for bike frames these days, with companies cutting corners more and more.

    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    Where do you think Transition is made? It ain't the US of A. Turner is still holding out, made in Oregon for the most part, rest in Texas, I believe, their RAD tubing.

    Have you seen a Transition up close? The manufacturing quality doesn't even come close to a high end frame like a Turner or Ventana. The shocks that come with Transition bikes are also of the lower shelf variety.

    And as you rightfully pointed out, one year XTR, another XT and so on. Everything costs more to make these days and the market dictates the retail prices, so each manufacturer's margins are shrinking. Nothing unusual about it, it is just the name of the game.

    And durability is another huge issue. I've ridden a Preston FR for a day, it was about half a season old, and definatelly not ridden to its potential, and the thing felt really used. Same thing happened to a buddy of mine's Heckler. After a season the bike felt a decade old. With Turners, longevity is a huge part of their appeal. Not to mention their ability to morph.

    Undoubtedly bang for a buck wise you'll be better off with a Taiwanese frame from some other brand, but if you're looking for the highest quality frame which fits like a glove, then Turner is definatelly one of those companies.

    _MK
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    "No man goes before his time -- unless the boss leaves early."
    -- Marx, Groucho

  19. #19
    Registered Dietitian
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    So buy a Transition, and STFU. There have always been less expensive alternatives to Turner, Intense, et al., so you haven't really discovered anything new.

    Just don't kid yourself into thinking that a Transition (or any other overseas frame) is any "more special" than a Specialized- they just aren't mass produced like Special Ed.
    Registered Dietitian, Cycling Coach, E3: Elite Human Performance

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71


    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!

    You actually think that Dave Turner or Sherwood Gibson has lost any sleep with yet another cheap frame imported into the country from Taiwan?

    BTW, just wondering, I wonder how many Downhill Championship titles have been won on a $900 frame vs a DHR? HMMM, I think that a few MTN type cross titles have been won on some rebadged Spot/RFX's too!


    Now that you got me going, where is that 06 Enduro made? I wonder how much that frame costs?

    Are we done Bass fishing with a bobber and a corn ball yet?
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  21. #21
    Rolling
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    Out comes the **** stirring spoon,



    ...and we rush in with our bowls.

    yum yum..

  22. #22
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    yeah, I think Bullit is a **** kicker and enjoys it.
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  23. #23
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    Specialized is sticking it to you more

    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Actually I don't ride a Bullit anymore. I ride an 06 Specialized Enduro Expert. Love the bike, but because Specialized is so common, and I've heard such good things about Turner, I'd like to check on out. But a buddy of mine just bought a new 5 spot, and got the '05 since that was the last year with horst. Alot of ppl are gobbling last years before it too late.

    I don't if I'd buy one now. I guess I'm just getting tired of the higher and higher prices for bike frames these days, with companies cutting corners more and more.

    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    Specialized frames are made by merida, which has a plant in taiwan and churns out 5million frames a year. The price of one of those frames is peanuts. They are made by robots. Specialized probably has a higher margin per bike than DT. You did not see any of the savings, the CEO of specilized did. He is the one driving the porshe....
    Sit and spin my ass...

  24. #24
    Team Blindspot
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    Posts like this are best ingored.
    Last edited by S-Works; 05-21-2006 at 09:12 AM.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  25. #25
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    these type of threads should be ignored imo.i can only assume he is trying to get a rise and several people have bitten......ignore him and he'll go away

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