Results 1 to 85 of 85
  1. #1
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207

    Did Turner drop horst for greedy reasons?

    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  2. #2
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207

    One more thought...

    To recap - we know that he used to pay royalties to Specialized. He doesn't now. That saves him money. That is a indisputable fact. So the only way to prove he isn't being greedy is if he passes saving along to us, the consumer, by reducing the price of his frames, since he doesn't have to pay royalties anymore.

    If he does't reduce the price of his frames, than my conclusion stands correct- he just bought a new mansion and we have to pay for it.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  3. #3
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,401
    Your missing a VERY large piece of the puzzle, does ICT ring a bell?

  4. #4
    Fragilie
    Reputation: Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    813
    Wouldn't you rather be riding your bike than running your mouth? I know I would but, I'm on the injured reserve list.

  5. #5
    post-ride specialist
    Reputation: icegeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    4,010
    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Your missing a VERY large piece of the puzzle, does ICT ring a bell?

    Hey, did you get that 6-pack/RFX yet?

  6. #6
    t66
    t66 is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: t66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    619
    Welcome to the Turner Board Comrade. The frames are so awesome we care not that he's a "Capitalist Pig".

  7. #7
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,401
    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    Hey, did you get that 6-pack/RFX yet?
    Not yet, hopefully in a few weeks. They had some white and grey in stock but I'm holding out for the green ano.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zion Rasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,421

    Turner is a business not a charity non profit org.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.

    Remember one thing. To stay in business you alway have to do better than the year before. If DT does not generate enough cash flow to pay his obligations he will go bankrupt or someone else will buy him in (Like Tony). He did what he had to do. The royalties that he had to pay to Specializd and TE come right out of the bottom line. He came up with a way to save some cash, save the company, and pass, the best he could, some similar (TNT) technology to us. The bikes are still well made and if 1mm difference matters to you then go buy an Ellsworth.

    The worst thing that can happen is for the company to go bankrupt or a hostile take over by Pacific bicycles. Remember when GT's were cool???.......
    Sit and spin my ass...

  9. #9
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    Hilarious! To even suggest that this was done for profitable purposes has got ya drawers all bunched up.

    Pathetic.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  10. #10
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mañana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,191
    Actually, DT made a post a while where he said something along the lines of the payments for the royalties came straight from the profits. Apparently, over the years the materials and manufacturing costs have gone up and he kept the frame prices unchanges, so he paid royalties out of his own pocket, so to speak.

    You should also keep in mind that when DT started the company, V-brakes were king. Horst Link was invented in that era, where the brake moment happened around the rim by the seatstay arch.

    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  11. #11
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,401
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hilarious! To even suggest that this was done for profitable purposes has got ya drawers all bunched up.

    Pathetic.
    You need to pull your head out of your ***, ZR was saying he did it for financial reasons, but not to pay for a new mansion or Ferrari, maybe he decided he didn't want to contribute to his competitior's Ferrari collection. I'll say it again, does ICT ring a bell or are you that clueless?
    Last edited by rr; 05-20-2006 at 10:24 AM.

  12. #12
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    Look, I'm all for capitalism. Good for DT. I hope he is driving a porshe. I'm sure he deserves it. After all, he's the one that took all the risk when he started his company.

    I was ONLY suggesting that perhaps is conceivable that he dropped the horst link to keep profits up. If so, my point is proven. He keeps his profits up, and we ride slightly, (perhaps barely) less performing bikes.

    Thanks DT!
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  13. #13
    Bodhisattva
    Reputation: The Squeaky Wheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,453
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Did Turner drop Horst for greedy reasons?
    I heard it's because Horst wasn't a good kisser

    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,952
    QUOTE: Did Turner drop horst for greedy reasons?

    Yawn.

    Alternative Response (thx to Steve Martin): Oh I get it......it's one of those profit deals!
    Whining is not a strategy.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: drumstix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,291
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.

    It really doesnt make a difference mr. troll, the HL and the TNT will spank your Bullit so just get one!
    Yamaha & Paiste, weapons of mass percussion

  16. #16
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    Actually I don't ride a Bullit anymore. I ride an 06 Specialized Enduro Expert. Love the bike, but because Specialized is so common, and I've heard such good things about Turner, I'd like to check on out. But a buddy of mine just bought a new 5 spot, and got the '05 since that was the last year with horst. Alot of ppl are gobbling last years before it too late.

    I don't if I'd buy one now. I guess I'm just getting tired of the higher and higher prices for bike frames these days, with companies cutting corners more and more.

    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  17. #17
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    "...I'd like to check on out. "

    Oops, meant check it out...
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  18. #18
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mañana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,191
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Actually I don't ride a Bullit anymore. I ride an 06 Specialized Enduro Expert. Love the bike, but because Specialized is so common, and I've heard such good things about Turner, I'd like to check on out. But a buddy of mine just bought a new 5 spot, and got the '05 since that was the last year with horst. Alot of ppl are gobbling last years before it too late.

    I don't if I'd buy one now. I guess I'm just getting tired of the higher and higher prices for bike frames these days, with companies cutting corners more and more.

    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    Where do you think Transition is made? It ain't the US of A. Turner is still holding out, made in Oregon for the most part, rest in Texas, I believe, their RAD tubing.

    Have you seen a Transition up close? The manufacturing quality doesn't even come close to a high end frame like a Turner or Ventana. The shocks that come with Transition bikes are also of the lower shelf variety.

    And as you rightfully pointed out, one year XTR, another XT and so on. Everything costs more to make these days and the market dictates the retail prices, so each manufacturer's margins are shrinking. Nothing unusual about it, it is just the name of the game.

    And durability is another huge issue. I've ridden a Preston FR for a day, it was about half a season old, and definatelly not ridden to its potential, and the thing felt really used. Same thing happened to a buddy of mine's Heckler. After a season the bike felt a decade old. With Turners, longevity is a huge part of their appeal. Not to mention their ability to morph.

    Undoubtedly bang for a buck wise you'll be better off with a Taiwanese frame from some other brand, but if you're looking for the highest quality frame which fits like a glove, then Turner is definatelly one of those companies.

    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  19. #19
    Registered Dietitian
    Reputation: tommyrod74's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    1,600
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    So buy a Transition, and STFU. There have always been less expensive alternatives to Turner, Intense, et al., so you haven't really discovered anything new.

    Just don't kid yourself into thinking that a Transition (or any other overseas frame) is any "more special" than a Specialized- they just aren't mass produced like Special Ed.
    Registered Dietitian, Cycling Coach, Ascend Nutrition and Coaching

    www.ascendthepeak.com

    www.facebook.com/ascendthepeak

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: drumstix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,291
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71


    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!

    You actually think that Dave Turner or Sherwood Gibson has lost any sleep with yet another cheap frame imported into the country from Taiwan?

    BTW, just wondering, I wonder how many Downhill Championship titles have been won on a $900 frame vs a DHR? HMMM, I think that a few MTN type cross titles have been won on some rebadged Spot/RFX's too!


    Now that you got me going, where is that 06 Enduro made? I wonder how much that frame costs?

    Are we done Bass fishing with a bobber and a corn ball yet?
    Yamaha & Paiste, weapons of mass percussion

  21. #21
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,114
    Out comes the **** stirring spoon,



    ...and we rush in with our bowls.

    yum yum..

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Bling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,586
    yeah, I think Bullit is a **** kicker and enjoys it.
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zion Rasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,421

    Specialized is sticking it to you more

    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Actually I don't ride a Bullit anymore. I ride an 06 Specialized Enduro Expert. Love the bike, but because Specialized is so common, and I've heard such good things about Turner, I'd like to check on out. But a buddy of mine just bought a new 5 spot, and got the '05 since that was the last year with horst. Alot of ppl are gobbling last years before it too late.

    I don't if I'd buy one now. I guess I'm just getting tired of the higher and higher prices for bike frames these days, with companies cutting corners more and more.

    First their hand built in USA, next their built in Taiwan. One year they have XTR, then next year XT, and next year LX, and the price is the same or even more!! What the hell is going on here???

    That why I love new companies like Transition that brings $900 frames into the market that ride awesome. Preston just got MBA's FR bike of the year, and the frame is half the cost of Turners, Ellsworth,etc. Must make DT wet his pants when he sees that.

    Competition baby!!
    Specialized frames are made by merida, which has a plant in taiwan and churns out 5million frames a year. The price of one of those frames is peanuts. They are made by robots. Specialized probably has a higher margin per bike than DT. You did not see any of the savings, the CEO of specilized did. He is the one driving the porshe....
    Sit and spin my ass...

  24. #24
    Team Blindspot
    Reputation: S-Works's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,954
    Posts like this are best ingored.
    Last edited by S-Works; 05-21-2006 at 09:12 AM.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: wilks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,229
    these type of threads should be ignored imo.i can only assume he is trying to get a rise and several people have bitten......ignore him and he'll go away

  26. #26
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    Ha ha. Well, at least this brings out some more thought than your typical, "look at my new bike" thread.

    It is clear that Turner owners are very loyal. I guess I'll have to try one some day. Specialized Enduro Expert vs 6 Pack test? Hmmmm...
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  27. #27
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    Actually, I'm really not trying to stir things up. You all are right. The owner of S is probably driving a Ferrari. I was just thinking about this when I got up this morning and thought I'd post my thoughts. Notice I haven't said one negetive thing about the bikes Turner makes. All I hear is great things about them, and I may buy one someday. So when owners like DT or Tony E and others start cutting corners, are they just trying to keep there heads above the water, or are they are filthy rich - just stickin' it to the consumer again.

    I have no idea, so I thought I'd ask. No need to get all pissy about it.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  28. #28
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Look, I'm all for capitalism. Good for DT. I hope he is driving a porshe. I'm sure he deserves it. After all, he's the one that took all the risk when he started his company.

    I was ONLY suggesting that perhaps is conceivable that he dropped the horst link to keep profits up. If so, my point is proven. He keeps his profits up, and we ride slightly, (perhaps barely) less performing bikes.

    Thanks DT!
    It's funny because I keep hearing about this mansion Todd Ellington has.

    Here's something that might help the perspective:
    I'm shocked, was horst link finally just a hype or what?

  29. #29
    ... I guess you won't be
    Reputation: jokermtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,938
    I think as bikes increased in travel, the magic of the horst link is reduced [origionally developed on short travel mtb's], ultimately relegating it to good idea status, but not worth paying extra for anymore...which anyone who's ridden a tnt will attest to. Dave Turner has said as much, but I won't rehash....

    A horst link is nice, but it's not the maico-breako it used to be.....

  30. #30
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    I saw some publishing on the FSR by Specialized at the end of the 90's about the amount of brake locking, as compared to other major brands.

    What's funny is people actually think putting a Horst Link on automatically decouples any and all braking forces from the suspension. This can't be further from the truth, as it's a race for the smallest percentage of these braking-induced forces. Back then, the other designs didn't have so much of an advantage over the FSR in terms of the real numbers, but they were "doctored" a bit by S to make them look better for advertising.

    Additionally, I had several non-horst four bars before Turner. One didn't feel like it had any negative braking behavior, the next one did. I didn't buy a Turner for the HL, either. I knew it didn't make a difference. A HL doesn't tell much about how good the bike is going to ride, doesn't tell how well it's gonna hook up on shitty terrain, nor does it tell to what percentage the rear will be decoupled from the brakes which is also dependent on the rest of the design.

    Too bad most of the "smart buyers" in mtb that did their research fell for S's advertising. Big success, I say.

  31. #31
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,742

    It has been said...

    When an ant colony is attacked by an outside, the queen is protected first. The ants all run to protect the queen pronto. You have attacked the queen, DT, and the ants are running to protect. It is funny...DT could come out with a balsa wood frame and the homers would say it is as good as alloy because of some strength test in Malaysia.

    DT is not saying anything on the subject. I guess he feels he doesn't owe us an explanation or just can't; however, it is true that some may not choose to buy his bikes because of the change. Cycle Path in Oregon is not longer going to sell Turners due to the change. It is free market and like the stock market perception is everything. The HL may not be better than a seat stay link but many believe it is. It is the psychology of it. I'm guessing DT is being sued or threatened with a lawsuit and can't say much. The guys at Turner are good guys and very helpful.

    I'm on the my third year on my Spot with no pivot changes and zero noise. Wow! I live in a a rainy climate and just love my bike. I would not change it for any bike on the market. Would I buy a TNT Turner? Not sure, just being honest.

    Jaybo

    PS I would bet DT has some dough but probably is not filthy rich. But, I don't care if he is...this is America, baby, and the pursuit of wealth is a good thing.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,396

    That's pretty funny!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    When an ant colony is attacked by an outside, the queen is protected first. The ants all run to protect the queen pronto. You have attacked the queen, DT, and the ants are running to protect. It is funny...DT could come out with a balsa wood frame and the homers would say it is as good as alloy because of some strength test in Malaysia.

    DT is not saying anything on the subject. I guess he feels he doesn't owe us an explanation or just can't; however, it is true that some may not choose to buy his bikes because of the change. Cycle Path in Oregon is not longer going to sell Turners due to the change. It is free market and like the stock market perception is everything. The HL may not be better than a seat stay link but many believe it is. It is the psychology of it. I'm guessing DT is being sued or threatened with a lawsuit and can't say much. The guys at Turner are good guys and very helpful.

    I'm on the my third year on my Spot with no pivot changes and zero noise. Wow! I live in a a rainy climate and just love my bike. I would not change it for any bike on the market. Would I buy a TNT Turner? Not sure, just being honest.

    Jaybo

    PS I would bet DT has some dough but probably is not filthy rich. But, I don't care if he is...this is America, baby, and the pursuit of wealth is a good thing.
    Yeah, it's crazy sometime how riled up these folks get. I hope DT is making a killing, but somehow I doubt it. I ran into a woman once from Cali who claimed to live down the stree from TE. According to her he's living large

    I'll be able to see first hand if the HL makes a difference pretty soon; I'm taking advantage of the 600 dollar trade in program to get a new 5-spot. I'm really gonna miss my XCE; I love that bike.

    Dave

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    55
    Actually Turner did lower his price a 2002 xce cost 1995.00 and a 2003 5spot cost 1895.00

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zion Rasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,421

    That is not DT price!

    Quote Originally Posted by creak
    Actually Turner did lower his price a 2002 xce cost 1995.00 and a 2003 5spot cost 1895.00
    The $1,995 or $1,895 are the seller's price. Turner's price is probably more around $700 - $1,000 for a frame. That is what the distributor or bike dealer pays for the frames. So when supergo was selling Burners for $900 , they were still making a few hundred bucks. The Burner frames were a bit cheaper that the spot, I think.

    So the bike shop is making a killing on the frames - it all goes back to econ 101 - supply and demand.
    Sit and spin my ass...

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: drumstix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,291
    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    The $1,995 or $1,895 are the seller's price. Turner's price is probably more around $700 - $1,000 for a frame. That is what the distributor or bike dealer pays for the frames. So when supergo was selling Burners for $900 , they were still making a few hundred bucks. The Burner frames were a bit cheaper that the spot, I think.

    So the bike shop is making a killing on the frames - it all goes back to econ 101 - supply and demand.


    Your not really even that close to the "dealer cost" yet rasta boy, your still low and not getting warmer.
    Yamaha & Paiste, weapons of mass percussion

  36. #36
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    I was got a price on a shop buy for an RFX and I would have snatched it up if it was close to what Zion wrote above. I also got to see the dealer price on it.

    From what I've seen-
    XCE's were 1995, then was dropped toward the end to 1695.
    Burners lowered the price and then were blown out due to some factors, including a late delivery from the builders. Turner would not have sold them out for a loss, at least I don't think so. I think the structuring of Superho allowed an extremely narrow profit margin, used shocks that were Supergo supplied closeouts in themselves to better the deal on both ends, then also relied heavily on the idea that the buyer might buy the components from there.

    Price of the Flux dropped recently, as it did for the Nitrous. Even if the prices stayed the same since 2000, they have effectively dropped because they are not increasing with inflation.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    132

    yeah, those stinking filthy rich LBS owners

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    The $1,995 or $1,895 are the seller's price. Turner's price is probably more around $700 - $1,000 for a frame. That is what the distributor or bike dealer pays for the frames. So when supergo was selling Burners for $900 , they were still making a few hundred bucks. The Burner frames were a bit cheaper that the spot, I think.

    So the bike shop is making a killing on the frames - it all goes back to econ 101 - supply and demand.
    Driving their Porches and sipping their Don P. No wait a minute... In econ 202, they teach you things like overhead(salaries, rent, returns, etc...) Shock, horror bike shops need to mark up their wholesale prices to stay in business. There are lots of guys in the biz on these boards and they've posted on the 'economics' of the industry. No one in the LBS game is making a killing.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    132

    ???

    "DT is not saying anything on the subject"

    There's a nifty search feature on the board and you can read exactly what DT said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    When an ant colony is attacked by an outside, the queen is protected first. The ants all run to protect the queen pronto. You have attacked the queen, DT, and the ants are running to protect. It is funny...DT could come out with a balsa wood frame and the homers would say it is as good as alloy because of some strength test in Malaysia.

    DT is not saying anything on the subject. I guess he feels he doesn't owe us an explanation or just can't; however, it is true that some may not choose to buy his bikes because of the change. Cycle Path in Oregon is not longer going to sell Turners due to the change. It is free market and like the stock market perception is everything. The HL may not be better than a seat stay link but many believe it is. It is the psychology of it. I'm guessing DT is being sued or threatened with a lawsuit and can't say much. The guys at Turner are good guys and very helpful.

    I'm on the my third year on my Spot with no pivot changes and zero noise. Wow! I live in a a rainy climate and just love my bike. I would not change it for any bike on the market. Would I buy a TNT Turner? Not sure, just being honest.

    Jaybo

    PS I would bet DT has some dough but probably is not filthy rich. But, I don't care if he is...this is America, baby, and the pursuit of wealth is a good thing.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: AndyN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,111
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.

    You sir are an idiot.

  40. #40
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
    Reputation: cactuscorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12,942
    im not at liberty to say and if i was i wouldnt none the less but the mark up on a turner is not much. not much at all. all thoughts of dt in a 3900 square foot mansion with $200000 cars parked out front is a bunch of hooie. hes the typical small buissiness owner and works hard to get by and do whats fun in the off time just as most of us do. another thing i know is hes a good human and a fine friend.

    all this talk of who paid who and how much it cost to do so is quite simply none of yer damn biz nor mine. yould be best served to drop this train of thought and figure out what ya wanna ride then buy it. its more about the bike and less about what the owner of the company lives in or drives. grow up kids. go ride a bike or help someone smile. maybe both.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Clyde S Dale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,140
    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    these type of threads should be ignored imo.i can only assume he is trying to get a rise and several people have bitten......ignore him and he'll go away
    Right on! I couldn't agree more. Maybe a sign could be posted:

    Do not feed the trolls.


  42. #42
    Zip
    Zip is offline
    Joe Dirt Status
    Reputation: Zip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    601
    Two years ago I rode a friends 5 Spot and bought my own 1 month later, 2 of my ridding buddies rode my new Spot and 2 months later they bought their own (both these guys had no money so many garage sales were in order to buy them). This pattern has caused approximately 7 to 9 additional people to buy 5 Spots which were all spawned from me first riding one, then subsequently buying one. I had several dozen bikes before the Turner. Other than the 5 spot the only other bike I love to ride is My SC Chamelon HT.

    DT is a genius. I would buy a Turner again and again regardless of the price. I have quite a ebay history of buying and selling to prove it. Nothing I've owned (FS) has even come close to the Turner. And that includes an Enduro, Heckler and a Blur. I did like the Heckler a close third overall behind my SC HT.

    Flame on Bullit man!

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zion Rasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,421

    So what is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by drumstix
    Your not really even that close to the "dealer cost" yet rasta boy, your still low and not getting warmer.
    So what is the dealer cost on a Turner frame?

    Post it if you know it.....
    Sit and spin my ass...

  44. #44
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    So what is the dealer cost on a Turner frame?

    Post it if you know it.....
    No...................

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 006_007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,017
    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Hi,

    New to the Turner board, but was thinking about getting a Turner.

    I know:

    1.Turner dropped horst for his self name TNT.
    2.Read PLENTY of threads stating little performance difference between horst and TNT. So don't send me any links saying this topic has been beat to death.
    3.If this idea has already been covered, I apologize in advanced.

    So lets look at the facts - DT has to pay Specialized (I think) to add that link by rear derrailuer. He initially used this idea when starting bike company probably b/c he thought it was the best. Why would start company with second best ideas? Suddenly he decides to drop the link and start his own - thus not paying royalties to Specialized. You lose an extra link by derrailuer - which helps performance.

    Conclusion - he bought one too many Ferrari's and we have to pay for them. Or he needs a couple more houses and needs more money and we will pay for those too.
    Nothing like a good troll.....


  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    3,986
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN
    You sir are an idiot.
    That's an insult to idiots everywhere

  47. #47
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,401
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    That's an insult to idiots everywhere
    Yeah I think they're giving bullit too much credit with the whole trolling thing

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    3,187

    I would say DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    Remember one thing. To stay in business you alway have to do better than the year before. If DT does not generate enough cash flow to pay his obligations he will go bankrupt or someone else will buy him in (Like Tony). He did what he had to do. The royalties that he had to pay to Specializd and TE come right out of the bottom line. He came up with a way to save some cash, save the company, and pass, the best he could, some similar (TNT) technology to us. The bikes are still well made and if 1mm difference matters to you then go buy an Ellsworth.

    The worst thing that can happen is for the company to go bankrupt or a hostile take over by Pacific bicycles. Remember when GT's were cool???.......
    I apparently got one of the last HL 5 Spots and am very happy with it; however, after getting some time on it I will throw this out there: the awesome geometry, build quality, and suspension action of this bike outweights any HL vs. TNT debate. If I were shelling out money to get a Turner now, I would not hesitate at all to get the TNT. Just don't worry about it!!!

    If anything, the rear end will be stiffer.... which is already stiff, and it is I who needs to learn the habit of applying more body english in turns, rather than braking

    I love this bike and plan to keep it for a very, very long time.

    Oh one more thing - get the DHX Air if you can, if is very plush and feels very, probably "coil like".

    I'm out

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zion Rasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,421

    Intense cost to dealer is $700

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    No...................
    The cost of an Intense 6.6 frame to a dealer is $700. How much more do you think turner frames are to a dealer?

    Anyone? Come on! It is not like this is top secret info.
    Sit and spin my ass...

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    3,187

    Have to disagree with you about the Transition Preston

    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    And durability is another huge issue. I've ridden a Preston FR for a day, it was about half a season old, and definatelly not ridden to its potential, and the thing felt really used. Same thing happened to a buddy of mine's Heckler. After a season the bike felt a decade old. With Turners, longevity is a huge part of their appeal. Not to mention their ability to morph.

    _MK
    I know your main point is to put in a plug for the Turner and that's cool. I own a 5 Spot and love it. I also just ordered a Transition Dirtbag, so that I can have a bike that will allow me to take my riding to another level......

    There are two people who come to mind in the area where I live here in Boise, who have ridden the **** out of their Transition Prestons, both here and on the north shore. I have SEEN what they do on the bikes, and they have had zero complaints about the longvevity, reliability, loss of "new" or crisp feeling, or any other issue with the bikes. These guys go big, and I do mean big; I have seen it. And if there were issues, I feel confident a company like Transition would/will take care of their customers. ON their website they have a lifetime crash replacement policy. If you LOOK at the bikes, the bearings are big, and heck, the bikes are made so beefy, they will take more than the average "Joe" (to borrow Kona phrase) or more than I can ever throw down - just look at the tubing and the thickness of the seat and chain stays!

    It's great to have a "beautiful" bike the 5 Spot, but I am glad I ordered a Transition for a big bike, rather than getting more in debt to get an RFX or some other expensive big bike!

    Does that make sense?

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    3,187

    Well let's see

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    The cost of an Intense 6.6 frame to a dealer is $700. How much more do you think turner frames are to a dealer?

    Anyone? Come on! It is not like this is top secret info.
    First, the obvious. Turner does not sell nearly as many frames as does Specialized for example, or bikes, actually because can't find a good comparison because most bikes are sold as complete bikes. Anyway, made here, and with that craftsmanship like none I've seen before (love the integrated bottom bracket shell), so the price to manufacture is going to be higher.

    Than, he has to pay for advertising: Print, Online. Promotions: Events, Team.
    Racing: DH Team and all their requirements for equipment and support. Keeping the lights on, keeping a well-paid, motivated staff. Transportation (from manufacturer to them for further assembly, then from them to their dealers or in some cases direct.
    Design costs. Constant refinement. Legal. Taxes. Rents or Leases. He probably does not enjoy the economies of scale or market economies that say Specialized does..

    At first I was kind of mad at myself for buying myself an $1800 bicycle frame, on a trip to SoCal and later felt guilty when I should have been buying my girfriend at the time some nice clothing at Nordstroms or wherever (there is no Nordstroms in Boise, and certainly no Fashion Island or South Coast Plaza). Yes I should have done that but that is another story. And, IF I had done that, I still would have been saving up for the 5 Spot and eventually got one anyway.......

    So now, I have a frame that (hopefully) will last me a long long time and provide a lot of enjoyment. The craftsmanship on it I have not seen on other frames. It is truly a work of art (a work of dirty art usually because I'm riding the **** out of it!).

    I'm going riding now, need the endorphins,
    Rant over

  52. #52
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    Damage control time:

    Obviously I have struck a nerve with many bike owners, shop owners and such....

    Also it goes without saying that DT's finicial status is nobody's damn business.

    Further, it's no ones damn business what shops charge for frames.

    There is no doubt that a Turner frame is an American made thing of beauty. I may buy one myself sameday, as I stated earlier. In fact, I just purchased a Thompson stem for $80. I could've purchase a much more inexpensive stem, but the engineering and precision of the stuff Thompson makes is amazing. Same with CK headsets. Beautiful. And expensive.

    However, I was just questioning why a business would drop a particular feature on a product after so many years of offer this feature. CK and Thompson don't drop certain features to save money, do they? In fact they produced the same amazing products w/o much change at all. Only improvements if you ask me.

    I'm not a troller and am all for capitalism. DT makes a great product, probably works his a$$ off and dammit, should be making a hell of a living. Again, none of our business anyways. I probably shouldn't mentioned cars or house,etc but I was trying to emphasize my point....

    Thanks for all of the interesting feedback.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  53. #53
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,401
    bullit-now your making more sense, except you still don't know WHY he dropped the horst link do you? It wasn't cause of the Spec patent fee, it was due to the Ells/ICT patent fee. There is a ton of info on this board why he had to do it so look it up, DT commented on it himself.

    It's a great story though IMO, he kept the integrity/performance of his product and got out from under 2 patent fees as well as sticking it to a certain company that deserved it, gotta love it

  54. #54
    banned
    Reputation: Juan Speeder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    708

    That just comes off as ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    The cost of an Intense 6.6 frame to a dealer is $700. How much more do you think turner frames are to a dealer?

    Anyone? Come on! It is not like this is top secret info.
    I don't actually know what dealer cost is on a 6.6 is, but I don't have to, to know that you are waaaaay off base.

    MSRP on a 6.6 is $2155. At a dealer cost of $700, that is an incredible margin.

    Ther is no dealer anywhere in the US (and I mean none, zero, nada) that makes that kind of margin on either a frame or complete bike. Margins are usually in the 30-40% range and typically right in the middle.

    So, based on experience, I'd speculate that dealer cost a Five Spot (on frames bought one at a time) would be ~$1230 give or take.

    Now, if one works for a stocking dealer, oftentimes one can purchase a frame at a sweet Employee Purchase deal, which usually translates into about half of retail. So that 6.6 at EP price is likely in the $1075 range. Dealer price more like $1400, or double what you quote.

    Now where did you pull that $700 figure out of?
    Last edited by Juan Speeder; 05-21-2006 at 04:31 PM.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    5

    Host-Link Patent Expiration?

    It's been awhile since I've visited mtbr and the Turner website - was totally amazed that DT completely dropped Host-Link, something I felt to be quite intrinsic to Turners long standing performance. Since 1992, I've owned nothing but Horst-linked bikes (starting with AMP B2), and so I'm somewhat saddened by all this.

    Question is: when will the Horst-Link patent expire? It's been around since around since 1990-1991, and I would think it's about ripe to expire sometime soon? Can anyone elaborate?

    There was also talk about patent infringements over ICT - I recall some time ago that Turner had to put ICT stickers on their bikes (at least you could remove them). When did Turner transition from HL to ICT? Perhaps this is wishfull thinking - I would think if DT could hold out while, he could revert to the HL design and not have to pay royalties when the patent expires.

  56. #56
    Another festivus MIRACLE!
    Reputation: bullit71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,207
    I agree on the $700 thing. No way. I know a couple shop owners, and I believe that they make more money on the little things, not the expensive frames.

    Anyone want to chime in on this?
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  57. #57
    Pixie Dust Addict
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,349
    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    The cost of an Intense 6.6 frame to a dealer is $700. How much more do you think turner frames are to a dealer?

    Anyone? Come on! It is not like this is top secret info.
    Well, yes it is. Dealer pricing is confidential. Any dealer that gave out wholesale prices would not be a dealer for very long.

    Also, I really doubt that dealer cost on a 6.6 is $700. That would put the profit on a frame at around $1300. Not even bike shops get 184% margin on a high end frame.

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    3,986
    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    Since 1992, I've owned nothing but Horst-linked bikes (starting with AMP B2), and so I'm somewhat saddened by all this. .
    #1 - Don't be sad The Horst link was really never the issue. The patent fee was small and acceptable. You can still buy a HL bike. Buy a Specialized. or buy a current Turner and get a bike that rides every bit as well as the HL / ICT bikes..... with great customer service that doesn't require you to plant big wet ones on Tony's butt.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    Question is: when will the Horst-Link patent expire? It's been around since around since 1990-1991, and I would think it's about ripe to expire sometime soon? Can anyone elaborate? .
    I can elaborate. See #1, above

    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    There was also talk about patent infringements over ICT - I recall some time ago that Turner had to put ICT stickers on their bikes (at least you could remove them). When did Turner transition from HL to ICT? Perhaps this is wishfull thinking - I would think if DT could hold out while, he could revert to the HL design and not have to pay royalties when the patent expires.
    This is an old and endless story. Use the search function. Have a blast. Hop on your Ellsworth(s) and ride..... joyful in the fact that you ".... know".

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    The Horst link was really never the issue. The patent fee was small and acceptable. You can still buy a HL bike. Buy a Specialized.
    Or a Titus...


    The question still stands - when will the HL patent expire? IOW, if DT didn't have to pay a red cent for a HL design, would he and should bring it back? Poll anyone?

    ICT aside, keep the polarizing Anne Coulter Ellsworth comments out of this discussion - at least Turner owners can remove their ICT labels without incident, unlike Ellsworth owners.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zion Rasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,421

    Bring it back!

    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    Or a Titus...


    The question still stands - when will the HL patent expire? IOW, if DT didn't have to pay a red cent for a HL design, would he and should bring it back? Poll anyone?

    ICT aside, keep the polarizing Anne Coulter Ellsworth comments out of this discussion - at least Turner owners can remove their ICT labels without incident, unlike Ellsworth owners.
    He will probably offer both TNT and H/L options if the patent expires.
    Sit and spin my ass...

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation: miles e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,968
    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    at least Turner owners can remove their ICT labels without incident, unlike Ellsworth owners.
    Why? Does it void the warranty?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    132

    as I recall

    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    Or a Titus...


    The question still stands - when will the HL patent expire? IOW, if DT didn't have to pay a red cent for a HL design, would he and should bring it back? Poll anyone?

    ICT aside, keep the polarizing Anne Coulter Ellsworth comments out of this discussion - at least Turner owners can remove their ICT labels without incident, unlike Ellsworth owners.
    It was part of the issue, because not just Specialized, be Ells wanted their cut, and though there's been some talk about the inexpensive Specy license, we've never known the details of the Ells licensing which always sounded like it was the deal breaker. What businessman wouldn't do away with that uncertainty if they could?

    Way to many generalities being thrown around by people who haven't bothered to read the back posts.

    Why would DT go back to the HL? TNT has received few, if any complaints by riders, as opposed to CAD monkeys(said lovingly), and offers a stiffness improvement. And it's been a great way for DT to shake out the riders vs the flavor-of-the-month techno geeks.

  63. #63
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by ashayk
    It was part of the issue, because not just Specialized, be Ells wanted their cut, and though there's been some talk about the inexpensive Specy license, we've never known the details of the Ells licensing which always sounded like it was the deal breaker. What businessman wouldn't do away with that uncertainty if they could?

    Way to many generalities being thrown around by people who haven't bothered to read the back posts.

    Why would DT go back to the HL? TNT has received few, if any complaints by riders, as opposed to CAD monkeys(said lovingly), and offers a stiffness improvement. And it's been a great way for DT to shake out the riders vs the flavor-of-the-month techno geeks.
    That seems to be a pretty dead-on statement, as several people are so beyond their scope of credibility and into the realm of comedy with their techno-babble. The funny thing is those same people have not taken the exam to license themselves as engineers, or get professional degrees in these areas.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    Why? Does it void the warranty?
    On Ellworth frames, the ICT label is actually laser-etched onto the tube. Defacing the tube would be the only option or perhaps getting it re-anodized.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: miles e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,968
    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    On Ellworth frames, the ICT label is actually laser-etched onto the tube.
    I see. Did they start doing this before or after Turner's lime green stickers?

    It's really quite startling how deep the different philosophies run.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    That seems to be a pretty dead-on statement, as several people are so beyond their scope of credibility and into the realm of comedy with their techno-babble. The funny thing is those same people have not taken the exam to license themselves as engineers, or get professional degrees in these areas.
    Well I'm a fully qualified professional engineer, working in vehicle dynamics for 15 years. I've heard a lot of crap talked about HL bikes as if they are the Holy Grail and nothing else in the world matters. For what it's worth I chose a Ventana "Faux Bar" (what a ridiculous term) because I know stiffness is very important and I prefer having the rear wheel attached directly to the main pivot arm. That's not to say I don't like the HL Turners, I just prefer the Ventana design. It's inherently stiffer and more practical to maintain. Wear in the chainstay pivots on a HL bike will have a detrimental effect on the bike's performance. A bit of wear in seatstay pivots has little effect. The difference in wheel geometry appears to be pretty minimal as far as I can see.

    Whatever the real reason for Turner's switch to TNT (Faux Bar or whatever), it seems to have proved my point. 99% of reviews report that the bike handles pretty much the same and I've even read several reports where riders have preferred TNT because the rear feels a little stiffer. So I personally prefer the TNT Turner design for much the same reasons I chose my Ventana. HL has finally been exposed for the over-hyped marketing tool it really is.

    In the UK loads of technoheads (who've been reading too much and not test riding) are still falling over themselves to pay over the odds for the few remaining HL Turners. They will always consider TNT to be an inferior design. I don't think so.

  67. #67
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    Or a Titus...


    The question still stands - when will the HL patent expire? IOW, if DT didn't have to pay a red cent for a HL design, would he and should bring it back? Poll anyone?

    ICT aside, keep the polarizing Anne Coulter Ellsworth comments out of this discussion - at least Turner owners can remove their ICT labels without incident, unlike Ellsworth owners.
    the Titus board should have a minister of information, considering how those guys tell everyone that the models with taiwanese mainframes are made in the USA. Don't forget to factor in how Titus tells inconsistant stories of the frame origins, as well as some off-warranty frames being replaced free, after five years while newer, just off warranty failures are charged.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    I see. Did they start doing this before or after Turner's lime green stickers?

    It's really quite startling how deep the different philosophies run.
    Way before... The ICT design started with the Dare in 2000, but wasn't heavily marketed, hence no wretched labeling was present. It really started with the 2001 Truth and the new (at the time) Id, when they started laser-etching their frames.



    Yes, the philsophies do run seem to run deep. What bothers me as that I've always felt that HL was not only congenital to Turner bike design, but also to the company's history. After all, DT originally worked at AMP Research and hung out with Horst himself and that's how the whole thing started. If anything, DT should have had retroactive rights to the HL design. I still feel Turner has the best HL execution of all the brands.

    In the future, I doubt that TNT design will be heralded and be afforded the kind of patent protection seen with HL and ICT designs of the last dozen years. After all, TNT-like designs have been around for some time, yet no one is really architecturally clamoring for them. Has Ventana, or lessors like Kona, Mongoose, etc, been protecting theirs designs because they are inherently better? I doubt DT said to himself, "yeah, those Ventana guys had it right all along." If anything, it appears that is was not technical forces, but legal risk that propelled this design change to TNT. And I think it shows if you look at the psychological import of the reviews themselves - it's not that people expect TNT to be better than HL, it's merely that people don't want TNT to be worse than HL. Yes, there is a reason why HL 5-Spots are commanding a premium...

    Still, some day that patent will expire and hopefully some day we will see a return to the classical Turner HL bike - like the Burner that started it all.
    Last edited by strangelove; 05-23-2006 at 11:49 PM.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    I see. Did they start doing this before or after Turner's lime green stickers?

    It's really quite startling how deep the different philosophies run.

    oops - double post

  70. #70
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mañana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,191
    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    Way before... The ICT design started with the Dare in 2000, but wasn't heavily marketed, hence no wretched labeling was present. It really started with the 2001 Truth and the new (at the time) Id, when they started laser-etching their frames.
    Yes, the philsophies do run seem to run deep. What bothers me as that I've always felt that HL was not only congenital to Turner bike design, but also to the company's history. After all, DT originally worked at AMP Research and hung out with Horst himself and that's how the whole thing started. If anything, DT should have had retroactive rights to the HL design. I still feel Turner has the best HL execution of all the brands.

    In the future, I doubt that TNT design will be heralded and be afforded the kind of patent protection seen with HL and ICT designs of the last dozen years. After all, TNT-like designs have been around for some time, yet no one is really architecturally clamoring for them. Has Ventana, or lessors like Kona, Mongoose, etc, been protecting theirs designs because they are inherently better? I doubt DT said to himself, "yeah, those Ventana guys had it right all along." If anything, it appears that is was not technical forces, but legal risk that propelled this design change to TNT. And I think it shows if you look at the psychological import of the reviews themselves - it's not that people expect TNT to be better than HL, it's merely that people don't want TNT to be worse than HL. Yes, there is a reason why HL 5-Spots are commanding a premium...

    Still, some day that patent will expire and hopefully some day we will see a return to the classical Turner HL bike - like the Burner that started it all.
    Amen.

    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by strangelove
    In the future, I doubt that TNT design will be heralded and be afforded the kind of patent protection seen with HL and ICT designs of the last dozen years. After all, TNT-like designs have been around for some time, yet no one is really architecturally clamoring for them. Has Ventana, or lessors like Kona, Mongoose, etc, been protecting theirs designs because they are inherently better? I doubt DT said to himself, "yeah, those Ventana guys had it right all along." If anything, it appears that is was not technical forces, but legal risk that propelled this design change to TNT. And I think it shows if you look at the psychological import of the reviews themselves - it's not that people expect TNT to be better than HL, it's merely that people don't want TNT to be worse than HL. Yes, there is a reason why HL 5-Spots are commanding a premium...

    Still, some day that patent will expire and hopefully some day we will see a return to the classical Turner HL bike - like the Burner that started it all.
    I think you might be right, but I think the return to HL will be driven by consumer demand rather than technical reasons. Many people think they need a HL bike, simple as that. As far as I can see, it makes little difference. Haven't heard anyone complaining about the handling or ride of TNT bikes yet.

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    528
    bullit:
    turners DO ride differently to specialized. they have more feel and more soul.
    the attention to detail is amazing, the big s do it well but they have millions to spend on r n d.
    i had an xce in 1998, i only sold it last year as i needed the money. it was on it's second set of bushings and that was after being ridden as my only off road bike for 7 years in all weathers in and around the peak district.
    just bought a highline (may have mentioned it before) and just sitting looking at the detail and the way it was manufactured makes me smile, great quality welds/machining/detailing.
    you stirred things up well and truly but you really need to try a turner before you can call for or against.
    also how many forums do you find the main designer/owner posting and listening to his/her fans/riders/customers?

  73. #73
    falling off since 1975
    Reputation: nick3216's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    161
    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I think you might be right, but I think the return to HL will be driven by consumer demand rather than technical reasons.
    According to the Singletrack 2005 Interbike Review HL was only the seventh reason most folk had for buying a Turner.

    I'd certainly rate longevity waaay above it. I don't have the money to chase fashion or replace a bike each year. Which is why I had no hesitation getting a TNT 5Spot instead of even shopping around looking at HL bikes from other makers.

    The way the TNT handles by the time the patent expires I don't think consumer demand for a HL will be big enough to warrant a return to it.

    Consumer demand for a sweet handling, tough bike provided by a company with great CS will always exist, whateverr linkage it has at the rear.

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by nick3216
    According to the Singletrack 2005 Interbike Review HL was only the seventh reason most folk had for buying a Turner.
    Well I think 7th is about right! If that's the real public feeling though, why is everyone making such a big deal of the change? Why are people in the UK (and probably in the US too) fighting to get hold of the few remaining HL bikes? If you held a survey now asking whether Turner should or should not go back to a HL design, I think I know what the answer would be. Maybe this feeling will eventually fade away as people realise it really is no big deal.

  75. #75
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mañana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,191
    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    Well I think 7th is about right! If that's the real public feeling though, why is everyone making such a big deal of the change? Why are people in the UK (and probably in the US too) fighting to get hold of the few remaining HL bikes? If you held a survey now asking whether Turner should or should not go back to a HL design, I think I know what the answer would be. Maybe this feeling will eventually fade away as people realise it really is no big deal.
    That statement about HL being 7th in the importance, is a muddy statement. I participated in that poll and questions where "ride quality", "build", among others. HL was one of the questions, too. People were to select 3. To me, HL is part of ride quality, so obviously I didn't even tick the HL option. Turner drew their conclusions, and dropped the HL. I think the results of that poll are BS, but that's my opinion.

    _MK

    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not just surrounded by a*holes

  76. #76
    banned
    Reputation: gonzostrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    Quote Originally Posted by t66
    Welcome to the Turner Board Comrade. The frames are so awesome we care not that he's a "Capitalist Pig".
    now now.

    go easy on the retread.

    obviously his mind isn't subtle enough to allow Dave Turner to see an improvement over what he previously thought was best, and then implement that improvement.

    obviously he can't handle Dave Turner doing something better than what the MTB media used to tout as the best.

    obviously he just can't figure out anything that has the complexity of, oh I don't know, maybe finger painting?

    PS -- my 6-Pack and 5-Spot both are Horst, but I'd gladly trade either one for a TNT model. if anyone would like to trade the parts, I'll happily do it. I'm not fettered like the retread bullit71. I doubt anyone who cares about how their bike rides is so fettered.

  77. #77
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    That statement about HL being 7th in the importance, is a muddy statement. I participated in that poll and questions where "ride quality", "build", among others. HL was one of the questions, too. People were to select 3. To me, HL is part of ride quality, so obviously I didn't even tick the HL option. Turner drew their conclusions, and dropped the HL. I think the results of that poll are BS, but that's my opinion.

    _MK
    I think that kind of shows how many things are open for interpretation because to me, the ride quality was high up, but the HL was not. I have ridden non HL four bars that I can't tell the difference from an HL four bar. So to me, I do care about ride quality and don't care how it gets designed, just as long as it's there.

    I think in reality, the HL is such a small piece of the ride quality of a Turner, but with marketing, it gets magnified to such a huge degree. The bike business in general has been like that and we've all fallen or partaken in it. Marketing such as the HL (DT or otherwise), "perceived value" when downgrading less seen componentry to put on an XTR or XT derailleur, 83 feet and 100%, etc are all examples. I hate to say it, but bike consumers are fickle and image is certainly a factor in many decisions.

  78. #78
    banned
    Reputation: gonzostrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    That statement about HL being 7th in the importance, is a muddy statement. I participated in that poll and questions where "ride quality", "build", among others. HL was one of the questions, too. People were to select 3. To me, HL is part of ride quality, so obviously I didn't even tick the HL option. Turner drew their conclusions, and dropped the HL. I think the results of that poll are BS, but that's my opinion.

    _MK
    I think your opinion is not only valuable, but close to accurate if not right on the money.

    A rider can "perceive" that the suspension layout is what makes the bike ride as it does. But anyone who's ridden a Turner TNT and a Kona 4-bar side-by-side can tell you that the apparent layout and visual similarity are nothing in the realm of overall bike ride/handling.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    A rider can "perceive" that the suspension layout is what makes the bike ride as it does. But anyone who's ridden a Turner TNT and a Kona 4-bar side-by-side can tell you that the apparent layout and visual similarity are nothing in the realm of overall bike ride/handling.
    Yep, it's often the invisible parameters that make all the difference. Compliance and friction in particular. You can have 2 bikes with near identical geometry and kinematics and yet they can ride night and day differently.

  80. #80
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,132
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    now now.

    ... my 6-Pack and 5-Spot both are Horst, but I'd gladly trade either one for a TNT model. if anyone would like to trade the parts, I'll happily do it.
    I find this interesting...

    Interesting because I don't recall seeing a lot of people trying to unload TNT rears here in the US... actually there are a few people who have tried both and decided to add the TNT onto their existing bikes...marketing be dammed.

    A casual look at the classifides seems to indicate that the used HL Turners aren't selling any faster or for any more money than last year.(but are still popular and retain strong value)

    If this year's 1st quarter has been better than last years...and if last year's quarter was kickarse (Considering the 5S and 6P established popularity) then there are plenty of happy TNT owners out there.

    I wonder how many people chose to buy a used HL Turner instead of a new TNT one purely for the HL? If price and availibility on the classifides hasn't changed and there are actually more people buying turners this year than last year... I'd say the HL fever apparently going on in the UK isn't happening here.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  81. #81
    banned
    Reputation: gonzostrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    'Zilla,

    I hope you and others understand my point, which is NOT to say that I run contrary to the Horst design.

    rather,

    it's to say that I fully support Dave Turner's decisions on how to design and build his frames.

    I have been a serious MTB rider for almost 20 years now. I have yet to ride a frame that handles as well, uses its travel as well, feels as stable, and universally is enjoyable (universally = in every situation) as a Turner.

    I believe Dave Turner knows quite a bit about making a bike. I believe that anyone who cares one whit about how their bike rides, and the potential quality of that ride, will agree.

    and for all those shadetree engineer wannabes like Peebag from JH, I'd say this: go design something yourself if you think it's so easy and if you think you can best Dave Turner's work.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,624
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I wonder how many people chose to buy a used HL Turner instead of a new TNT one purely for the HL? If price and availibility on the classifides hasn't changed and there are actually more people buying turners this year than last year... I'd say the HL fever apparently going on in the UK isn't happening here.
    There are still many people in tears in the UK over the demise of the Turner HL. Such technoheads tend to have short memories though, so it will soon be all forgotten. That fugly SC Nomad contraption seems to be flavour of the month over here right now.

  83. #83
    banned
    Reputation: gonzostrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    There are still many people in tears in the UK over the demise of the Turner HL. Such technoheads tend to have short memories though, so it will soon be all forgotten. That fugly SC Nomad contraption seems to be flavour of the month over here right now.
    the UK has Chavs of the MTB sort, eh?

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jncarpenter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I find this interesting...Interesting because I don't recall seeing a lot of people trying to unload TNT rears here in the US... actually there are a few people who have tried both and decided to add the TNT onto their existing bikes...marketing be dammed. .
    ...well, I for one tested the TNT rear on my HL Spot after spending 2 years on the bike. I put the TNT through as many different test situations with as many differing variables as I deemed applicable. I also rode extensively the same trails I had grown accustomed to on the HL rear.....verdict: SOLD the HL & purchased a TNT. Also, as a sidenote regarding AndyN's results...I don't take issue with his personal conclusions, I could no more contest them then he can mine. However, the steepest/ rootiest/ gnarly traction climb I have on my local trails (singletrack & usually wet southern clay based), I continue to feel the TNT does a better job on...this is not BS or some psycho-induced snowjob. The TNT just feels a bit firmer under power...period. Where the HL would slightly wallow on steep climbs (albeit, very compliant to trail obstacles), the TNT just feels a bit firmer & I seemingly have more power transfer to the climb. I don't brake heavily on descents, but if I notice ANY difference at all...it is that the rear seems to stay planted a bit lower where the HL may want to shift my weight forward a bit. Again, that is very subtle & possibly subjective...but, since the major argument has been focused on braking, I could only conclude that at worst, there is no advantage (over HL) to the 5" or 6" setups on my TNT RFx5 (yes, I spent decent time on the HL Pack before selling & swapping over to the TNT rear as well)


  85. #85
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,132
    Yeah Gonz, I was agreeing with your previous post and using that to illiustrate that, for all the handwringing going on, a great riding bike is a great riding bike...just as you have said.

    If someone feels any non-HL bike cannot ride as well as any HL bike, even if everything else is the same, even if they haven't actually compared them, so be it. If someone would rather base their decision exclusively on amateur calculations instead of experienced designers...can't change that. If a person feels a slide ruler makes a better shock than a damper, who am I to argue?

    They can put their keyboards between their legs and have a great ride!
    T'heck with MTB(R)eview, it's time for MTB(C)alculate!
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 05-24-2006 at 09:56 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •