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  1. #1
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    Czar or s works epic WC?

    So what would be your race weapon of choice?Riding between lap racing,marathon and a few multi day stage races.Just sold my 2013 s works epic and am torn between these two bikes.My 2013 epic was a 9.8kg de-brained(fox ctd rear shock) race machine.Czar is getting really good reviews as does the DW link so i'm a bit unsure.Help me decide.
    Chillie.

  2. #2
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    I've ridden and raced both quite a bit. If you de-brained your Epic, and preferred that, I would recommend the Czar without reservation.

    IMO, the "brain" is really the main calling card for the Epic. If you don't appreciate the brain -- and I really didn't, either except for very short rides/races -- I don't think you'll regret moving on for a second. I sure haven't.

    This is not at all meant to just bag on the Epic. It's a great bike. But if you remove the brain, you have to do a lot of lever flipping on that rear shock to get snappy pedaling AND a somewhat plush ride. I use the lever on the Czar a fair bit -- perhaps the overly anal engineer coming out in me -- but I've done test rides where I just put it in T and that provides an amazing ride and crisp pedaling all at once.
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  3. #3
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    Buy the Czar and enter the magical fold of Turner ownership. The bike will weigh more, but but DW link bikes climb very very well, and your soul will be so much richer.

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the input guys.I've owned a turner burner years ago and really loved the bike,tho it was not really a race bike.I've also owned every model of epic since they started making them and like the design but really think the brain holds the bike back.Multiple hits on a downhill or something slightly rough exposes the brain as useless.I might as well be on a HT.Really keen on the DW link.How does it climb?

  5. #5
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    I've shifted from a 4" 2007 Sultan (Pre DW), to a 5.5" DW Burner, and the Burner is a better climber…despite its shorter wheelbase (I like long chain stays for tech climbing).

    Do a search on the forum for info about the Czar. Copy these search strings into Google and see what pops up:
    site:forums.mtbr.com Czar
    site:forums.mtbr.com Czar climb
    site:forums.mtbr.com Czar vs Epic

    Read this (scroll down to the section on the Czar):
    Interbike Dirt Demo

    and this..
    CZAR ride review

    Good luck!

  6. #6
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    "Multiple hits on a downhill or something slightly rough exposes the brain as useless.I might as well be on a HT."

    There's your answer right there. What's the point of lugging the weight of suspension around with you if it doesn't work when you most need it?

    Get the Czar, brah.
    'I've got a bike, you can ride it if you like. It's got a basket, a bell that rings, and things to make it look good' - Syd B

  7. #7
    Bro Mountainbiker
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    Czar or s works epic WC?

    Czar is a better bike.
    I work at a specialized shop and have ridden a million epics, but got to build and ride a czar yesterday.
    It pedals just as well as the epic but is much more fun to ride. It was much more playful and fun while remaining responsive and racy in the pedals.

    The DW link is a work of art as well.
    Raised in a Chicken-Coop by Chickens

  8. #8
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    I tell people that the DW link rear suspension on my Czar is like a brain without the clunking, and a shock absorber that actually works for more than two bumps in a row.

    Some sarcasm, of course, because the Epic is a really good bike, but a boatload of truth, too.

    It's pretty easy for me to choose an Epic, Superfly 100 or Czar as a race bike (LBS carries all three). Last year I chose a Czar. This year it will be the Czar, again. Kind of odd going into the winter without a lot of bike choice agonizing to help fill the rainy days.
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Czar is a better bike.
    I work at a specialized shop and have ridden a million epics, but got to build and ride a czar yesterday.
    It pedals just as well as the epic but is much more fun to ride. It was much more playful and fun while remaining responsive and racy in the pedals.

    The DW link is a work of art as well.
    This and when you buy a Turner you arent selling your soul to the Devil.

  10. #10
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    !!!

  11. #11
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    I don't agree that there is a weight penalty for going with Czar over Epic. They can be built very light. Mine is 22.3 (before I shed 80g with a carbon seatpost) with a 2x10.

  12. #12
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    I've read it too many times now, on multiple frames: "It can be built very light".

    But with the same parts on a bike with a lighter frame, like the Epic, it will be lighter. So the Czar is simply heavier and it does have a weight penalty. Please don't try to tell that 5.3lbs == 4.1lbs. (e.g. Canyon Lux frame, don't have Epic WC frame weight)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillie View Post
    So what would be your race weapon of choice?Riding between lap racing,marathon and a few multi day stage races.Just sold my 2013 s works epic and am torn between these two bikes.My 2013 epic was a 9.8kg de-brained(fox ctd rear shock) race machine.Czar is getting really good reviews as does the DW link so i'm a bit unsure.Help me decide.
    Chillie.
    The Czar will destroy a non-brain FSR in efficiency and acceleration, imo, of course.
    www.seanhannity.com <=not what you think it is.

    Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roet View Post
    I've read it too many times now, on multiple frames: "It can be built very light".

    But with the same parts on a bike with a lighter frame, like the Epic, it will be lighter. So the Czar is simply heavier and it does have a weight penalty. Please don't try to tell that 5.3lbs == 4.1lbs. (e.g. Canyon Lux frame, don't have Epic WC frame weight)
    a 4 pound full suspension frame sounds almost disposable.
    www.seanhannity.com <=not what you think it is.

    Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    a 4 pound full suspension frame sounds almost disposable.
    Certainly. The hardware and shock are going to weight upwards of a pound.

    And having a great riding, great pedaling, dependable cross country bike - that's fun enough to ride anywhere, outweighs a 1 pound weight penalty.

  16. #16
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    That wasn't the point I was making. Funny you both immediately render the lighter frame irrelevant because it's lighter, without any durability figures.

    All I was saying is that denying the weight difference by saying "it can be built light", is wrong. There is a weight difference, be it either good or bad. It is there! Both the Czar and the Epic WC can be built light, but with the same components, the Epic WC will be lighter.

    I'm not saying it's a weight-penalty anymore, that might have came out wrong. It's a weight difference, and it's there, whether the Czar can be built light or not. All I'm just saying is don't question physics .

    Still would chose the Turner above Epic myself, so don't worry guys .

  17. #17
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    1/3+ more carbon on the frame structure (Czar vs 4 pounder - not counting shock & hardware) has to increase both stiffness and durability. Don't question engineering :/
    www.seanhannity.com <=not what you think it is.

    Homeopathy is the Air Guitar of Medicine.

  18. #18
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    So, making a bike lighter while remaining it's stiffness and durability is not part of engineering? Interesting. And the DW-link has extra pivots/arms near the BB. The Canyon has a single pivot, thus making it lighter. And less pivot's, doesn't that make a bike stiffer and enhance durability?

  19. #19
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    If we aren't going to "question physics", we'll have to start by stipulating that weight is ONE aspect of a bike's performance, and not the be-all, end-all factor.

    There are plenty of rides I do regularly where my 29 pound long-travel bike is a bit faster and much less fatiguing than my 25 pound Czar.
    The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.

  20. #20
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    That was why I was saying:

    I'm not saying it's a weight-penalty anymore, that might have came out wrong. It's a weight difference, and it's there, whether the Czar can be built light or not.

    I don't question that frame-weight is a very small part of how a bike rides, suspension design (very good on the Czar), chain-stay length/wheelbase and weight of the rotating parts matter more to me than a pound in the frame, which isn't even noticed when you maintain the same speed.

    Hope it is clear now. All I wanted to say (initially) is that 5.3lbs != 4.1lbs.

  21. #21
    Daniel the Dog
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    I have heard the 215 lb Yamaha YZ 250 is faster than a CZAR.

    I would go CZAR because the Epic is such a limiting bike. I have ridden one and they pedal great and all that but feel way too racy to me for anything but racing. I like more stability and comfort.

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