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Thread: Chris King hubs

  1. #1
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    Chris King hubs

    I need a new wheelset, as I'd certainly like to start running disc brakes. I am currently running a White Industries Ti Cassette (rear) and Tracker (front). I believe the rear has the same 24T engagement, 15 degree, as the new White Industries M15 and M16 hubs. I've been considering the Hope Pro II, also a 15 degree engagement, as it comes in black and has one more pawl than the Whites. Although, I have also been contemplating spending the extra $250, over the Pro II, on the wheelset, and buying a Chris King wheelset;

    However, I have some questions about it. See below, which comes from THIS POST. I'm hoping I can get my questions answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    ...and the bearing tension issue is a nightmare IMO...worth the original price despite the chain tension issues caused by the seal drag...The seals are over engineered to the point of causing shifting issues...neglect their service and tensioning.
    Can you please elaborate on this? Could you please explain how long it takes to set bearing preload, and how often it is necessary (during break-in and after)?

    The price for a DT 4.1D wheelset with Chris King is $250 more than with Hope Pro II. I'd like to go Chris King (based on engagement), but am not sure if I can justify it just yet.

    I don't seem to have a problem with the 15 degree engagement of the Hope's, my White Industries Ti Cassette/Tracker wheelset (non-disc) has the same, but I like the idea of having 3.5 degree engagement of the King's, plus having the security of no pawls. Although, I'm only 165 pounds when dressed and watered for riding.

    Thanks.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Go with the Kings Roy. I wish I did instead of my ProII's. Engagement is wayy quicker on CK's. Why is this on a Turner forum??

  3. #3
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    hadley!

    Split the difference and go Hadley. The Hopes are lighter and look pretty nice. I think the Hadleys have better engagement, and are well proven. They have a few diiferent colors as well...if that matters to you. Price is right between the Hopes and the Kings.
    Cheers!

  4. #4
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    All you need to adjust bearing preload on the Kings is two 5mm allen wrenches and your fingers. You remove the wheel from the bike, put one wrench in the drive side to keep the axle from turning, put the other wrench in the non-drive side and loosen the axle end. Then you finger tighten the adjusting cone to pre-load the bearing and retighten the axle end to "hold" the adjustment. Install the rear wheel. It's a 2 minute job. You can check for excessive play by holding the frame tightly (rockers or seat stay, for example) and rocking the wheel back and forth.

    I have 3 King wheelsets. On new sets I've had to do this anywhere from 2 to 4 times in the first couple of hundred miles. After that I have to readjust maybe twice a year. Its no big deal.

    Personally, I think the whole seal drag issue is a non-issue. If somone is having shifting issues its most likely because of poor wrenching or neglected maintenance elsewhere in the drivetrain. The only issue I can think of is right after adjusting preload there is a little more drag for a while and the chain can droop onto the chain stay or hang off the front d if you back pedal, but you'd really have to do something stupid (like back pedal through several revolutions) to cause a major problem.

    If you have the budget I wouldn't hesitate to get the Kings.


  5. #5
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    I went w/ Hadley's for my flux wheels. I've read about some recent problems, but have had none myself. The extra $$ and the seal-drag issues of the CK's steered me away (although I dig some of the colors!).
    I am absolutely spoiled by the instant-engagement, and am already contemplating a new wheelset for the spot to replace the 'sloppy' XT hubs on it, even though they are only 8 months old...

    The Hadley's do buzz loud, though...
    ...every day sends future to past...

  6. #6
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    I'm building up some hadleys at the moment...

    I thought briefly about the kings but couldn't justify the price but i was on a bit of a budget.

    FYI to save even more money i went a PRO II front hub. It even gives me the option of easily converting between QR and 20mm thru axle and really there is not much to a front hub so why unecessarilly bling it up. Some of the colours may be hard to match but if you went both silver or both black (like me) you'd be sweet.

    My 2 cents.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenseKipp
    Why is this on a Turner forum??
    Because I didn't think I'd get very good answers on the Diamond Back - Raleigh forum.

  8. #8
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    This begs the question...

    ...what makes CK's superior to hadley's????
    ...every day sends future to past...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjbebop
    ...what makes CK's superior to hadley's????
    I'm confused. (1) I don't see logically how the question of superiority is begged and (2) I'm not sure if your question is directed to me personally because it stems from my post (but I'm not quoted) or if its a general question to the forum.

    In any event, I don't think I'd personally characterize Hadley and CK hubs in terms of superiority and inferiority, but rather in terms of differences like weight, price, etc. They both seems to be at the higher end of available mtb hubs and they both seem to have their admirers and detractors. I have no experience with the Hadleys so I'm not in a position to offer meaningful opinions.


  10. #10
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    Nothing personal. I just wonder if there is any justification for the additional cost of the Kings that I'm not aware of. As best as I could tell, they are fairly equal, quality and performance wise. I like the reputation that CK products carry, and I appreciate the color choices, but are they 'better' than Hadley's??
    ...anybody...???
    ...every day sends future to past...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde S Dale
    I have 3 King wheelsets. On new sets I've had to do this anywhere from 2 to 4 times in the first couple of hundred miles. After that I have to readjust maybe twice a year. Its no big deal.
    ...
    Personally, I think the whole seal drag issue is a non-issue.
    ...
    If you have the budget I wouldn't hesitate to get the Kings.
    I had to do it many more times than that. Many. Got to be a complete PITA. I also think the drag issue is a huge issue. I was constantly dropping my chain on downhills because it would sag so much from the drag. Also, during the winter the drag got so bad I couldn't backpedal. It wasn't a case of needing to be broken in either; they had close to 1000 miles on them.

    I sold my set and didn't miss them at all. I decided to go Hadley when my XT rear wheel started to go. Money wasn't an issue at all since I would have gladly paid what the Kings cost if they hadn't been so annoying.

    Dave

  12. #12
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    For the ones who have had trouble with your Chris King hubs, what "series" (310, 311, 312, 314, and so on) were your hubs? See HERE for explanation of what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by royta; 05-17-2006 at 05:58 AM.

  13. #13
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    i would also consider that, in general, the wait time for Hadleys can be awful and false promises are common in terms of wait time.....having said that, same is true for mango or green kings so who knows....

  14. #14
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    Clyde S Dale gets the prize.
    Adjusting preload on the Kings takes 5 seconds and 2 allen wrenches.

    After the first week I only need to adjust preload once a season.
    Put some muscle into it and the cones stay tight. I have no idea how or why people struggle with this mechanism but I suspect operator error.

    As for superiority over Hadley, that topic has been hashed over ad naseum. For me it comes down to King's lower weight, superior engagement mechanism, bomb proof bearings and superb customer service.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Clyde S Dale gets the prize.
    Adjusting preload on the Kings takes 5 seconds and 2 allen wrenches.

    After the first week I only need to adjust preload once a season.
    Put some muscle into it and the cones stay tight. I have no idea how or why people struggle with this mechanism but I suspect operator error.

    As for superiority over Hadley, that topic has been hashed over ad naseum. For me it comes down to King's lower weight, superior engagement mechanism, bomb proof bearings and superb customer service.
    what do you care? you dont even ride Kings anymore (well, maybe once every 2 months that is)

  16. #16
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    As with any product, you are gonna hear both the good and bad. I'm sure there are many people that have had their fare share of troubles with XT, Hope, Hadley and King hubs. I have had 2 sets of Kings, one 6 years old, and the other only 1 year old. I have never had any of the problems that others describe. I have to adjust the hubs 3-4 times the first few months and that is it. I have never had and drag issues with my freehubs.

    Kings can be fully serviced with 2 5mm wrenches. Remove the axel, grab the freehub and pull and you are ready to go. If you have never seen the inside of a King, it is a masterpeice.

    Here is something to consider: King has been using the same hub design forever. The design works, and it is proven. How long did the Hadley 108 last? 18 months maybe? And talk about loud! But you never hear anyone *****in about the noise on those. King is at the top IMHO, and this makes them a target for consumers to take aim. If money i a concern, don't buy yhe hubs. If you have the money, you have many good options to choose from.
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  17. #17
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    I have had basically the same experience as Clyde S Dale. I have two sets of hubs (one set purchased in 1997 and one set in 2002). Each hub has required no more than a few adjustments during the break-in period. One adjustment after a few hours of riding, another after a week or two, and then maybe once a season after that. I adjusted my rear hub of my main bike at the start of the season last summer and it's still tight today. I can't remember the last time I adjusted either of my front hubs. I don't put in as many miles as a lot of these guys, and I rotate between four bikes, so other people may have to adjust more often than I do, but it's been a non-issue for me.

    Seal drag has also been a non-issue for me. If I lift (either) bike and spin the rear wheel as fast as I can, the crankset doesn't move and the chain doesn't droop. I have no problems at all back pedaling. There just isn't any detectable drag at all in either of my hubs.

    I wonder if some of the people who have seal drag issues aren't running a bit too much bearing preload. Finger tight is much too tight and will result in lots of drag, drooping chain, back pedaling problems etc. The first time I adjusted my hub, I set the preload adjuster finger tight and I had these problems. It took a few tries to get it just right. Too tight and you get drag, too loose and you have a bit of play. You have to just barely snug up the preload adjuster. Just enough to get rid of the play and no more. At least that's the way it is with my hubs. Of course, that's only a sample of two.

    That being said, my next hubset probably won't be a King. I want a 20mm convertible front hub and I'm not overly fond of the sound so my next hubset will most likely be from Hope. But, it won't be because I'm unhappy with the performance of my Kings. They have been flawless.

  18. #18
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    How' this:

    "Those who know...ride King"
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightySchmoePong
    Also, during the winter the drag got so bad I couldn't backpedal.
    I had this problem as well and called King. Turns out I simply needed to clean and rebuild the hub. Once I did that, it was back to smooth King perfection. I do ride in pretty cold weather here as well, but it doesn't seem to affect my drag at all.

    I would offer a third alternative, however: Hope Bulbs. I have these on my pack and they are higher end over the ProII's. They roll extremely well, but they don't have quite the engagement as the Kings. I like the Bulbs alot.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    How' this:

    "Those who know...ride King"
    Careful! I think Tony Ellsworth has a patent on that phrase.

  21. #21
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    Hadley freehub mechs break if you pedal hard up steep hills with lots of traction (slickrock).

    King freehubs don't break. My new King rear hub does have a bit of that drag when backpedaling, but much less than original. Funny thing, my old King on the other bike never had this, and still doesn't (once a year rebuild/service).

    If I didn't need the quick engagement and indestructibility of the King ring drive, and was going to go with DT 4.1 rims, I'd sure consider their complete wheelset. The stardrive is idiotically simple and might even be as strong as the ring drive (but after one failed experiment with Hadleys, I'll just stick with Kings, thanks).
    Whining is not a strategy.

  22. #22
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    Why aren't DT 240s hubs being mentioned here? I thought the Hugi star ratchet system is supposed to be pretty decent. I dunno, in the US it's not mentioned with the likes of King, but in Europe, it's a totally different story.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Clyde S Dale gets the prize.
    Adjusting preload on the Kings takes 5 seconds and 2 allen wrenches.

    After the first week I only need to adjust preload once a season.
    Put some muscle into it and the cones stay tight. I have no idea how or why people struggle with this mechanism but I suspect operator error.
    There's a little more to it then that, and I suspect a lot of you guys bought used hubs and that's why you dont encounter it. The seal issue is real. King's own reps have admitted it and have no fix for it other then use. Theres no way to struggle with the adjustment, you run it in finger tight and then lock it. My grandmother could do it. The problem is if you back it off just a bit to slack the chain, later on the tension is too loose and then you are right back where you started. The wheel is functional the whole time, but shifting suffers. I, and others I ride with, are spending too much time fiddling with the damn things and its been going on for over a year.

  24. #24
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    I am willing to pay the price of brake in to get a set of hubs which will spin and engage with consistency for years. Just like I am willing to spend a little extra effort during brake-in of my Marzocchis to get a consistent and superior performance out of them for a long time. (There's a whole another issue of new forks coming out, all the time, though )

    King has FAR superior engagement and it has nothing to do with quickness, which is very quick, indeed. I run my rear with Fun Bolts so I sacrifice a little weight. I am not sold on the front being the best 20mm hub out there, but for all intents and purposes, it is great. I probably would save my money and get something different these days. Back when I got it I liked the idea of swapping the axle for Maverick axle, since I ran the DUC.

    If Kings were cheaper, noone would question their superiority. The hub choice these days boils down to bang for the buck. King definatelly doesn't give the best one.

    _MK

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Hadley freehub mechs break if you pedal hard up steep hills with lots of traction (slickrock).
    You mean YOUR Hadley broke pedaling up a steep hill with lots of traction. I think its a bit much of a blanket statement to say that Hadleys in general brake in this situation.

    Kings are great hubs. I would have bought King hubs if it wasn't for the price increase. So far the Hadleys have been rock solid for me (even pedaling up steeps).

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    There's a little more to it then that, and I suspect a lot of you guys bought used hubs and that's why you dont encounter it. The seal issue is real. King's own reps have admitted it and have no fix for it other then use. Theres no way to struggle with the adjustment, you run it in finger tight and then lock it. My grandmother could do it. The problem is if you back it off just a bit to slack the chain, later on the tension is too loose and then you are right back where you started. The wheel is functional the whole time, but shifting suffers. I, and others I ride with, are spending too much time fiddling with the damn things and its been going on for over a year.
    I've got 3 CK wheelsets, one of which includes a 20mm front. All of them have been purchased new. I don't buy used mtb components for same reason I don't buy used rock climbing gear: You simply don't know its history (as a general rule).

    I agree that the seal issue is real as you've presented it: the fix is use. Everytime I do the adjustment there is a lot of initial drag. During a trip to Moab last week back in my hotel room I noticed some play in my rear hub after a run down Kokopelli/Porcupine. I performed the usual maintenance on it and afterword there was a lot of drag as I spun the wheel. By the end of the next ride it was almost gone; by the end of the second ride it was totally gone. Granted, those two rides totaled over 50 miles, but the wheel behaved as all my CK wheels have behaved.

    We're approaching June and that's the first time this year that wheel has needed service. The only other service I've done was to the 20mm a few weeks after the wheel was built up back in January. I suppose there could be an issue of sample to sample variability, but all my wheels behaved the exact same way and they've been purchased over a period of 4 years.

    We're certainly having different experiences, but I can't tell you why.


  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdub
    You mean YOUR Hadley broke pedaling up a steep hill with lots of traction. I think its a bit much of a blanket statement to say that Hadleys in general brake in this situation.

    Kings are great hubs. I would have bought King hubs if it wasn't for the price increase. So far the Hadleys have been rock solid for me (even pedaling up steeps).
    Kosmo's experience is an example of the problem with all prawl style drive mechanisms. There are very few prawls making contact with teeth on the drive shell, with enough torque and enough time, they will strip, every time. That is unfortunate. Most riders don't produce enough torque and/or own the hubs long enough, however, it is just a matter of time.

    _MK

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  28. #28
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    My Hadley's are..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdub
    You mean YOUR Hadley broke pedaling up a steep hill with lots of traction. I think its a bit much of a blanket statement to say that Hadleys in general brake in this situation.

    Kings are great hubs. I would have bought King hubs if it wasn't for the price increase. So far the Hadleys have been rock solid for me (even pedaling up steeps).

    ............. holding up nicely and perform great as well ! I'm getting a second set of wheels made up with Hadley's also ! I'd like to try Chris King hub's and if the Hadley's ever cause me grief I'll give the CK hubs a serious consideration down the road ! Waiting for Hadley's ( my wheelset ) has been slow and I haven't dealt with there customer service yet ! I guess the price difference and DH/FR tough reputation made me consider Hadley over CK but it sounds like most are saying the CK hubs are more durable ! TIG.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    There's a little more to it then that, and I suspect a lot of you guys bought used hubs and that's why you dont encounter it.
    Both my hubsets were purchased new.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    Theres no way to struggle with the adjustment, you run it in finger tight and then lock it. My grandmother could do it.
    I don't think it's that simple. If you snug it up finger tight and then lock it, it will be too tight and you will have drag issues (at least for the first couple of ride afterwards). At least that's the case with both of my rear hubs. If I snug them up finger tight I get tons of drag. Instead, I have to turn the preload adjuster until it just barely comes in contact with the bearing (but don't snug it up finger tight from there) and then lock it. It "feels" wrong to set the preload this way (i.e. it feels like the hub is still going to be loose), but it works and the hub doesn't come loose. At least this is the way my hubs behave.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    How' this:

    "Those who know...ride King"


    That saying would make me ill. Just the thought of TE having anyting to do with King would keep me from purchasing any King product.

  31. #31
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    [QUOTE=Jdub]You mean YOUR Hadley broke pedaling up a steep hill with lots of traction. I think its a bit much of a blanket statement to say that Hadleys in general brake in this situation.QUOTE]


    ...I thought I read awhile back that some tandem makers use Hadley rear hubs. If this is true, they gotta be strong. (or at least they make some custom just for tandems...)
    ...every day sends future to past...

  32. #32
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    If more of you guys were DH/FR type riders there would be much more love for Hadley and less for King. King hubs are lighter (and more expensive) and if that is your top priority then go for it, but Hadley offers many things that king does not. Here are a few:

    1 A lot of the weight savings in a king rear hub is due to the aluminum axle and freehub. In my opinion thess are both significant weak points in the design. Many more agrssive riders break the aluminum axle and are forced to go to the steel one negating any weight difference.

    2 The freehub body on king hubs can be ruined by certain cog set ups. Single cogs (unless kings own very overpriced ones) will deform the aluminum freehub body sometimes to the point that you cannot remove the cog.

    3. The reason that hadley temporarily changed the 108pt hubs to 72pt was a lack of avalibility of high enough quality titanium to build the body out of. (believe it or not war = use of lots of resources, try to find some carbon fiber around...) Check some of the FR.DH forums, people are not having issues with the 108pt hubs, myself included after 2+ yrs.

    3. King only offers 10mm x 135 rear hubs in QR and that is it (yes you can buy fun bolts, but then yoiu really need a new axle making the hub even that much more expensive. The front king is not convertable from QR to 20mm or bolt on. Hadley hubs offer a plethora of hub.axle set ups and cheap and easy conversions within the same hub width.

    4. We are all impressed that DT comes around these parts and we use that as a selling point for the turner brand, that the owner is involved and cares, somehow that makes turner a better bike Co that others in our eyes. As parallel, try and call hadley, and see who answers the phone.....Bob Hadley or his wife. Try calling King.....

    Dont get me wrong, King makes awesome stuff, and i love the stuff that i own, but they make product for a specific segment of the market and think that there way is the only way...

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    If more of you guys were DH/FR type riders there would be much more love for Hadley and less for King.
    I don't know. In DH, sure, the torque is low so it is hard to kill the mechanism, plus king doesn't make any wide hubs, but in FR, I would be afraid of a stipped mechanism not engaging during a big pedal kick.

    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    King hubs are lighter (and more expensive) and if that is your top priority then go for it, but Hadley offers many things that king does not. Here are a few:

    1 A lot of the weight savings in a king rear hub is due to the aluminum axle and freehub. In my opinion thess are both significant weak points in the design. Many more agrssive riders break the aluminum axle and are forced to go to the steel one negating any weight difference.
    King doesn't make a steel axle, they do make a steel drive shell, though. And Funbolts are a smart alternative to a bolt on rear hub. I don't see any problems with Fun Bolts.

    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    2 The freehub body on king hubs can be ruined by certain cog set ups. Single cogs (unless kings own very overpriced ones) will deform the aluminum freehub body sometimes to the point that you cannot remove the cog.
    If I was singlespeeding, I would take into account the aluminum drive shell and act accordingly. Even a cassette will bike inot the aluminum, but so what? I've never had any trouble removing one off my driveshell.

    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    3. The reason that hadley temporarily changed the 108pt hubs to 72pt was a lack of avalibility of high enough quality titanium to build the body out of. (believe it or not war = use of lots of resources, try to find some carbon fiber around...) Check some of the FR.DH forums, people are not having issues with the 108pt hubs, myself included after 2+ yrs.
    Yeah, and even certain aluma alloys are hard to get because they are used as armor on vehicles. Nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    3. King only offers 10mm x 135 rear hubs in QR and that is it (yes you can buy fun bolts, but then yoiu really need a new axle making the hub even that much more expensive. The front king is not convertable from QR to 20mm or bolt on. Hadley hubs offer a plethora of hub.axle set ups and cheap and easy conversions within the same hub width.
    There is no question that King is VERY expensive. This is exactly the reason a lot of people get Hadleys. If it wasn't for the price, there would be no contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    King makes awesome stuff, and i love the stuff that i own, but they make product for a specific segment of the market and think that there way is the only way...
    Precisely. This is why people aren't downhilling on king hubs. Majority of my riding falls withing king's "niche" so I am using it for those applications.

    You know, I probably sound like a dick in my response to your post. I don't mean to, it is just that the only superiority I see with Hadley is price and availability in different widths. The drive shell scarring is a compromise regarding weight, if it bothers someone, they can get the stainless steel shell. King is definatelly very expensive, probably too expensive, but if we're talking engineering, I don't think any rear hub on the market comes close.

    _MK

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    I did not say there was a negative to the funn bolts (infact hadley makes the same set up as one of the many they offer), but King will recomend that if you are riding in a manner that could benefit from the funn bolts, that you put in a heavy duty axle (yes it is steel, check king's site if you need to) as well, as the standard axle is not up to free riding. As far as durability of the freehub mech in the Hadleys, as i said check the forums, you will not find people having problems with them. The king drive has more engagements (and may be stronger but if the 'weaker' hadley system does not fail, is the king system not overkill...how strong is srong enough...) but it also has more friction and thus drag. I also fail to see how seated pedaling of a 25 pound bike puts more torque on a freehub than standing up and pedaling a 40 pound bike up the same grade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    Hope Bulbs. I have these on my pack and they are higher end over the ProII's. They roll extremely well, but they don't have quite the engagement as the Kings. I like the Bulbs alot.
    The Bulbs actually have less engagement than the Pro II's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    If I didn't need the quick engagement and indestructibility of the King ring drive, and was going to go with DT 4.1 rims, I'd sure consider their complete wheelset. The stardrive is idiotically simple and might even be as strong as the ring drive (but after one failed experiment with Hadleys, I'll just stick with Kings, thanks).
    I'd be 100% DT then. 4.1D rims, Super Comp spokes, DT nipps. I like loud hubs though, so 240s' don't do it for me, sound wise. I thought my White's were loud, until I heard my buddy's Hadley.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Why aren't DT 240s hubs being mentioned here? I thought the Hugi star ratchet system is supposed to be pretty decent. I dunno, in the US it's not mentioned with the likes of King, but in Europe, it's a totally different story.
    As mentioned above, 240s' are too quiet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Why aren't DT 240s hubs being mentioned here? I thought the Hugi star ratchet system is supposed to be pretty decent. I dunno, in the US it's not mentioned with the likes of King, but in Europe, it's a totally different story.
    Great question, Jerk Chicken. I was thinking the same thing, too

    Does anyone have the answer to our question?

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    DT ring drive has only 18pt engagement. Big down side in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davep
    DT ring drive has only 18pt engagement or every 10 degrees. Big down side in my opinion.
    360 / 18 = 20 degrees. You are right about the downside. I'll pass. My White does better, as does the Pro II. Both at 15 degrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    I'd be 100% DT then. 4.1D rims, Super Comp spokes, DT nipps. I like loud hubs though, so 240s' don't do it for me, sound wise. I thought my White's were loud, until I heard my buddy's Hadley.
    How about the old playing card in the spokes?

    Couple of comments above: first that I mean MY Hadley croaked under pressure. Yup, that's correct. As well as two others I have learned of since then. Second, that Hadleys hold up on tandems. Yup again. I've been running one for 10 years with never a hiccup. But it's 36 point engagement or some such thing, and tandems put less load on the hub than climbing stupid steep slickrock.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backmarker
    Both my hubsets were purchased new.


    I don't think it's that simple. If you snug it up finger tight and then lock it, it will be too tight and you will have drag issues (at least for the first couple of ride afterwards). At least that's the case with both of my rear hubs. If I snug them up finger tight I get tons of drag. Instead, I have to turn the preload adjuster until it just barely comes in contact with the bearing (but don't snug it up finger tight from there) and then lock it. It "feels" wrong to set the preload this way (i.e. it feels like the hub is still going to be loose), but it works and the hub doesn't come loose. At least this is the way my hubs behave.
    I've tried it that way too, where you snug it up, then back it off 1/8. It seems to work fine until about 50 miles later when the rear der. wont stay in gear and there's a slight wobble to the rear wheel. Then you have to take it apart again and snug it up a bit more, only then its too tight and the chain drags.

  42. #42
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    it's funny, all this talk about King seal drag....well, last weekend's 12hr race in intermittent downpours, combined with gravelly, slag/clay mud caused many of my friend's bikes to be under the scalpel this week...many hubs died.....I just checked my king's over and aside from wiping off the sludge, they roll as nice as they did before the mudfest. While my bottom bracket was toast due to water infiltration, my hubs laughed it off.

    That's definitely a condideration.....

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by royta
    360 / 18 = 20 degrees. You are right about the downside. I'll pass. My White does better, as does the Pro II. Both at 15 degrees.
    That's the only reason???

    I also wonder if one can feel a 5 degree difference. I also debate the instant engagement thing you guys talk about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    That's the only reason???

    I also wonder if one can feel a 5 degree difference. I also debate the instant engagement thing you guys talk about.
    people who obsess over engagement speed are Shadetree Engineers and wannabe riders. they'd prefer to debate statistics and puff their proud chests over their "faster engaging" hubs while they hack their way across paved sidewalks masquerading as technical MTB trails.

    another pseudo-advantage that reveals the poseur.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    How about the old playing card in the spokes?

    Couple of comments above: first that I mean MY Hadley croaked under pressure. Yup, that's correct. As well as two others I have learned of since then. Second, that Hadleys hold up on tandems. Yup again. I've been running one for 10 years with never a hiccup. But it's 36 point engagement or some such thing, and tandems put less load on the hub than climbing stupid steep slickrock.
    that's comic, Kosmo. climbing isn't what stresses a hub. I would wager donuts, a baker's dozen, that your Hadley had a defect.

    please explain how climbing slickrock places stress on engagement mechanisms. FYI: I've climbed slickrock, pavement, loose gravel, rooty ruts, rocky rooty ruts, rocky rooty rutted gnarl... on Shimano Deore, Shimano XT, Ringle Disc Jockey, and Hadley rear hubs. no difference among them.

    thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    people who obsess over engagement speed are Shadetree Engineers and wannabe riders. they'd prefer to debate statistics and puff their proud chests over their "faster engaging" hubs while they hack their way across paved sidewalks masquerading as technical MTB trails.

    another pseudo-advantage that reveals the poseur.
    I have a 240s and it engages when I turn my pedals forward, it's positive, and is supposed to be very strong and easily rebuildable. I also have LaserdiscLites now. Same thing. It would be nice to have an reduction of engagement of 12.87567341 degrees, however. It might make the difference between crossing the finish line in my head or having to go back to the hotdog truck

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    I'm also wondering something else-

    Everyone here is mentioning engagement, but that only holds for rear hubs. What about the fronts? It seems "bling" has taken hold and whatever rear hub one buys dictates the choice for the front.

    Still, no one can come up with some valid reasons why the 240s can't be a viable alternative to King. Even with the talk about the "slow" engagement, is the front not as good as the King front?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I'm also wondering something else-

    Everyone here is mentioning engagement, but that only holds for rear hubs. What about the fronts? It seems "bling" has taken hold and whatever rear hub one buys dictates the choice for the front.

    Still, no one can come up with some valid reasons why the 240s can't be a viable alternative to King. Even with the talk about the "slow" engagement, is the front not as good as the King front?
    I'll quote myself from above:

    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    King has FAR superior engagement and it has nothing to do with quickness, which is very quick, indeed. I run my rear with Fun Bolts so I sacrifice a little weight. I am not sold on the front being the best 20mm hub out there, but for all intents and purposes, it is great. I probably would save my money and get something different these days. Back when I got it I liked the idea of swapping the axle for Maverick axle, since I ran the DUC.
    The quickness of engagement has little to do with my choice of running Kings, it is the fact that ALL engagement teeth hook up all at once in the ring drive. Ask any trials rider what is the ONLY hub which withstands the loads those guys produce, indefinately. While I am no trials rider, I put down a lot of torque into the drive mechanism on tech moves and steep, rocky climbs which are often very technical to boot.

    As far as front hubs go, I was really impressed with the DT 440 FR. It spun so smooth. But then again, King has probably the best sealed bearings on the market. While I mostly ride in the dry, there are days when I go through a lot of mud and worry free/durable is my component choice.

    There are a lot of people running 240s around here, especially the leg shavers, and all of them really like them. They seem good, but they don't appear to be on par with Kings or Hadleys as far as manufacturing details are concerned. And they definatelly don't have that bling factor.

    _MK

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    Thanks for the answer.

    I don't know, I don't really find the engagement differential a deal-breaker for me. I mean, I might be in a minority here, but it's not a real factor for me. I do care about how positive the engagement is, but it matters more to me to have a bulletproof hub that can be rebuilt easily. I found the 240s fit this for a good price. I am in no way discounting the benefits of a King, but it's not worth the extra money for more engagement points.

    I will maintain that bulletproof hubs are available that don't have to cost the ridiculous price of kings.

  50. #50
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    oh snap!

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    people who obsess over engagement speed are Shadetree Engineers and wannabe riders. they'd prefer to debate statistics and puff their proud chests over their "faster engaging" hubs while they hack their way across paved sidewalks masquerading as technical MTB trails.
    Klassic. I have a set of Kings on one of my bikes and while the engagement IS nice, I'd have to agree that its not that much better then most of the other hubs I've ridden over the years... Except for one.

    I had a really freaky set of superlight XC wheels built up many years ago with a weird hubset made by an American company whose name I can't recall. The rear hub had a "rollerclutch" mechanism which, while apparently delicate, REALLY did have INSTANT engagement. Not "really fast" or "near instant" or whatever else, but real, honest to god INSTANT engagement. Not shitt. It was ILL. And they were silent.

    Sadly they were basically a road hub that wasn't really meant for the dirt. Still, they were super fun. I'm gonna search around to try and find who the maker was.... If anyone can recall who made them that would be cool. I'll post to the retro forum as well.
    - -benja- -

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    ...Ask any trials rider what is the ONLY hub which withstands the loads those guys produce, indefinately._MK
    I'm a trials rider and have used King hubs since they were available and I hate to say it, but read the forums on www.observedtrials.net and you'll see that a lot of trials riders stopped using King hubs...for two reasons. One, inexplicably, they don't seem to be as bombproof as the hubs produced a decade ago and a lot of guys were having trouble with them skipping in critical moments (loading up for a gap or such). I personally had one that let go on me a few times. Sent it back to King and they couldn't find anything wrong, so they lubed it up and sent it back.

    Dos, King now considers trials riding to be "use outside of the recommended usage for their products" and will no longer provide warrantee services on hubs that have been used on trials bikes. I don't think anyone uses King hubs on their trials bikes anymore if you know what I mean

    The seal issue is a big issue BTW. I agree with MightyPong in that regard. Even after thousands of miles, I have two hubs that still have chain droop issues in the smallest two cogs...even with the hub slightly loose.

  52. #52
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    forget kings...forget hadleys......they all have crap engagement. just run your bike fixed gear.

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    if you have the $$$$$, go KING

    Basically, if you have the ducketts for kings, you are an idiot for not getting them. hands down the best hubs around. I ride kings on my 5spot and they are the schizznit even after multiple airs and mobbing out like a madman. The only man I know who has gone through a king rear hub is steve garro and he used to bike more than any mortal man, and he will in the near future again. Thre proof is in the pudding, so go kingand you will never worry about your hubs.

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    if you have the $$$$$, go KING

    Basically, if you have the ducketts for kings, you are an idiot for not getting them. hands down the best hubs around. I ride kings on my 5spot and they are the schizznit even after multiple airs and mobbing out like a madman. The only man I know who has gone through a king rear hub is steve garro and he used to bike more than any mortal man, and he will in the near future again. Thre proof is in the pudding, so go kingand you will never worry about your hubs.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    I'm a trials rider and have used King hubs since they were available and I hate to say it, but read the forums on www.observedtrials.net and you'll see that a lot of trials riders stopped using King hubs...for two reasons. One, inexplicably, they don't seem to be as bombproof as the hubs produced a decade ago and a lot of guys were having trouble with them skipping in critical moments (loading up for a gap or such). I personally had one that let go on me a few times. Sent it back to King and they couldn't find anything wrong, so they lubed it up and sent it back.

    Dos, King now considers trials riding to be "use outside of the recommended usage for their products" and will no longer provide warrantee services on hubs that have been used on trials bikes. I don't think anyone uses King hubs on their trials bikes anymore if you know what I mean

    The seal issue is a big issue BTW. I agree with MightyPong in that regard. Even after thousands of miles, I have two hubs that still have chain droop issues in the smallest two cogs...even with the hub slightly loose.
    Interesting, because the few I know swear by them. I wonder if the engagement issues have anything to do with King reformulating their ring drive a few years back. Maybe the old stuff was better at ensuring positive engagement, because mechanically the mechanism hasn't changed, or has it?

    _MK

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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    I'm a trials rider and have used King hubs since they were available and I hate to say it, but read the forums on www.observedtrials.net and you'll see that a lot of trials riders stopped using King hubs.
    So what hubs do they use now?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5spotme
    Basically, if you have the ducketts for kings, you are an idiot for not getting them. hands down the best hubs around. I ride kings on my 5spot and they are the schizznit even after multiple airs and mobbing out like a madman. The only man I know who has gone through a king rear hub is steve garro and he used to bike more than any mortal man, and he will in the near future again. Thre proof is in the pudding, so go kingand you will never worry about your hubs.
    Well, personally I'd not deal with the extra drag of king hubs, the soft freehub material that is easily deformed by cassettes, and the proprietory/expensive parts.

    If I blow out a shimano freehub, it's about $30 for a new one at the most, and shimano is far wiser for sticking with titanium or steel as the material, not to mention the new high end shimano hubs are lighter than the CKs. Cup n cone is simpler, has less drag, easy to adjust and keep from going out of adjustment, and easy to replace/fix if the need should arise. Faster engagement? LOL, it's not like it's a more efficiant machine (it's less efficiant because of the drag). So I get to rest for half a millisecond more...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    people who obsess over engagement speed are Shadetree Engineers and wannabe riders. they'd prefer to debate statistics and puff their proud chests over their "faster engaging" hubs while they hack their way across paved sidewalks masquerading as technical MTB trails.

    another pseudo-advantage that reveals the poseur.
    Yeah, that's me, mr. poseur. I guess I'm hoping people will still see me riding my shiny orange bike despite the fact that a lot of the times I ride by myself. Oh, and with my 10+ year old, ugly as crap, brown nashbar jersey, because I haven't found a Fox jersey that fit my poseurtude. I wear cheapo Hoss MTB shorts, and my bike sports a set of wheels that I bought in 1995. Oh, I guess my 1996 XT v-brakes make me a poseur too. Yeah dude, I'm just about all posed out.

    Maybe I wouldn't be able to feel the difference of 5 degrees. But I see no reason to spend money on a product that I know has a slower engagement in hopes that I won't notice the difference, only to find out that I did notice the difference on my first backpedal to clear rocks on a steep ass incline. Oh wait, what steep incline? The last I checked there was no steep incline in the McDonald's parking lot where I am hoping people will see me (mr poseurman) riding my bike.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Why aren't DT 240s hubs being mentioned here? I thought the Hugi star ratchet system is supposed to be pretty decent. I dunno, in the US it's not mentioned with the likes of King, but in Europe, it's a totally different story.
    They are almost completely silent and have been bombproof for me. I'm a finese rider who rides in the NW. Easy to take apart and can be completely rebuilt. Great hubs! I have owned Kings and the instant engagement is overrated in my opinion. By the way, the only hub I have ever blown up was a rear King almost 10 years ago. You had better like a buzz when coasting. They are loud.

    Jaybo

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    I have king hubs and have 300 miles on them. The rear has had to be adjusted one time, which LBS told me would happen as they were breaking in. They make noise which I expected also. I actually like the noise and is great for warning others you are behind them.

    I do have one complaint, I have blue ones and they looked really good up until I used a brush to clean them. The brush scratched them up. This is the same brush I used to clean hard to reach areas on my bike with out any problems. I thought the hubs were anodized but apparently not. What ever you do don't use a brush to clean them, and also they are not completely sealed so don't spray water on them, but of couse you should spray water anywhere on your bike, or at least that is what I am told.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track MTBer
    I have king hubs and have 300 miles on them. The rear has had to be adjusted one time, which LBS told me would happen as they were breaking in. They make noise which I expected also. I actually like the noise and is great for warning others you are behind them.

    I do have one complaint, I have blue ones and they looked really good up until I used a brush to clean them. The brush scratched them up. This is the same brush I used to clean hard to reach areas on my bike with out any problems. I thought the hubs were anodized but apparently not. What ever you do don't use a brush to clean them, and also they are not completely sealed so don't spray water on them, but of couse you should spray water anywhere on your bike, or at least that is what I am told.
    The hubs are anodized. You may want your LBS to take a look at them and see if it is a warranty issue. And they are completely sealed. I wash my bike every Sunday and hit the hubs/cassette/chain with a nice stream of water from my garden hose. I regularly service my hubs (every 6 months or so) and have NEVER found any water in any of my Kings.

    I still don't know why people think Kings are loud. If the Ring Drive is serviced properly it is pretty quiet, not silent but still. Have you ever heard a Hadley 108? Talk about loud!
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    So what hubs do they use now?
    There are still a bunch of guys who are riding Kings, but quite a few people switched to different setups. Some are using the White Industries trials FW with a front freewheel setup and fixed hub in the back, some are running the WI FW in the back, some switched to the Hope Pro II. There are a few trials oriented companies to get into the hub market. Echo and BT are now producing hubs, but they're fixed and are for use with a front freewheel setup.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    The hubs are anodized. You may want your LBS to take a look at them and see if it is a warranty issue. And they are completely sealed. I wash my bike every Sunday and hit the hubs/cassette/chain with a nice stream of water from my garden hose. I regularly service my hubs (every 6 months or so) and have NEVER found any water in any of my Kings.

    I still don't know why people think Kings are loud. If the Ring Drive is serviced properly it is pretty quiet, not silent but still. Have you ever heard a Hadley 108? Talk about loud!
    Thanks for the advice. The manual that came with hubs says that they are not completely sealed. It said something to the effect that a completely sealed hub would not roll as good. I would not spray them. Mine made noise right out of the box, that is the free wheel which I consider to be part of the hub. I have never heard Hadleys and I have never heard any other hub that makes the noise that Kings do. I like the noise I am not complaining about it.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Single Track MTBer
    Thanks for the advice. The manual that came with hubs says that they are not completely sealed. It said something to the effect that a completely sealed hub would not roll as good. I would not spray them. Mine made noise right out of the box, that is the free wheel which I consider to be part of the hub. I have never heard Hadleys and I have never heard any other hub that makes the noise that Kings do. I like the noise I am not complaining about it.
    If the hub is too noisy, that is an indication the ring drive needs to be lubed. Do you know how to do that? If not, shoot me a PM and I will get you everything you need.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    If the hub is too noisy, that is an indication the ring drive needs to be lubed. Do you know how to do that? If not, shoot me a PM and I will get you everything you need.
    I really think they are operating correctly. I have ridden with others with king hubs and mine sound like theirs. They only time they make noise is when I am coasting, isn't that what they are suppose to do?

    Thanks for th offer of help though, I appreciate it.

  66. #66
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    Anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    people who obsess over engagement speed are Shadetree Engineers and wannabe riders. they'd prefer to debate statistics and puff their proud chests over their "faster engaging" hubs while they hack their way across paved sidewalks masquerading as technical MTB trails.

    another pseudo-advantage that reveals the poseur.
    Is anyone using Shimano Deore hubs? I think about $135 for a pair of wheels at price point. Kick ass....
    Sit and spin my ass...

  67. #67
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    I put Kings on my 04 5-spot....

    and had the drag issue after the first winter of riding. So I lubed the drive side bearings and it went away almost immediately. Perhaps King engineered the hubs to be easily serviced so owners don't have to wait for the chain drag or shifting problems. Besides, any hub that can be serviced with two 5mm Allen sand a pen knife can't be all bad.

    Incidently, I had XT's on my old bike and the engagement of the Kings is really superior, especially if you are sarting on a steep uphill.

    M

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac
    Besides, any hub that can be serviced with two 5mm Allen sand a pen knife can't be all bad.
    How about a set of White Industries? A single 2mm allen wrench and a pen knife (x-acto knife).

  69. #69
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    Because you wouldn't be able to make it up the hill with slow engaging hubs?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Because you wouldn't be able to make it up the hill with slow engaging hubs?
    You're killing me.

  71. #71
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    I just got done cleaning up my king hub, relubing it, and giving it the spin test....all that time, I kept thinking about the grousing going on on this thread about these hubs.....

    Well, I tensioned the hub just so, spun it a whirl, and it kept spinning, and spinning, and spinning....it actually kept going a lot longer than I expected it to....

    say what you will, but I'm pretty pleased with how easy it is to spiff em up, and get them working new again....and after a horrific mud race last weekend which had many of my friends actually replacing wheels, BB's, drivetrains, headsets, my hub were actually no worse for wear, other than the usual gunk that accumulates over time....that, my friends is solid. I've had these hubs almost three years and they still feel brand new.

    super expensive, ridiculously so, but I'm glad I got them when I had the scratch....

  72. #72
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    I picked up my king/317 wheel back in 2000 when I had extra cash. I got some pretty blingy stuff for that Tracer. Now three bikes later, virtually all those cool parts have been replaced, except for the king hubs& headset and the Salsa flip offs. Actually the whole wheel is still in use. I did have the loose rear hub issue and the cog issue, but all in all I can't see those hubs going away unless I change to a 20mm up front.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokermtb
    Well, I tensioned the hub just so, spun it a whirl, and it kept spinning, and spinning, and spinning....it actually kept going a lot longer than I expected it to.......
    That has little to do with the hub.

    That has everything to do with the mass of the wheel and distance from the center.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  74. #74
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    [QUOTE]That has little to do with the hub.

    That has everything to do with the mass of the wheel and distance from the center.[/QUOTE

    Jayem - if you ever spent any time trying to dial in just the right amount of pre-tension on the King adjuster cup, before tightening them down, you'd know what I mean by hitting the bullseye on tight vs. not loose, w/ the king hubs - it's a sweet spot thing...it's a real tightrope act.

    I remain convinced that whether you're running old-school cups n' cones or King type fancy shmancy roller bearings/caged bearings, that the true test is left up to the OWNER on how they manage the bearing preload/tightness issue....

    No hub maker has ever breached this hands on, intuition approach to hub security. If so, I'd like to know where I can order my next set of brain-dead adjuster hubs....
    Last edited by jokermtb; 05-24-2006 at 10:27 PM.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    Is anyone using Shimano Deore hubs? I think about $135 for a pair of wheels at price point. Kick ass....
    my singlespeed has a Deore Disc up front.

    my SC Bullit had a Deore Disc in the rear.

    I'm not sure how you find this funny, other than as a matter of Bling obverse status

  76. #76
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    I'm not excited about my Chris King rear hub on one of my bikes. Lots of issues in cold weather, adjustments, and malled up freehub from the cassette.

    My Turner has a hope and it's been grand.

  77. #77
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    Stand and deliver...

    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock
    I picked up my king/317 wheel back in 2000 .... but all in all I can't see those hubs going away unless I change to a 20mm up front.
    Nice to hear. I have just built up the current King/717 equivalent.

    I went to Kings a year ago after destroying a Mavic Crossrock rear hub after a handful of rides – you cannot climb a hill with no engagement whatsoever! So far I have only had to tweak the Kings at the end of the initial build. OK they cost but they also deliver.
    Kia ora (Good health)

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac
    and had the drag issue after the first winter of riding. So I lubed the drive side bearings and it went away almost immediately. Perhaps King engineered the hubs to be easily serviced so owners don't have to wait for the chain drag or shifting problems. Besides, any hub that can be serviced with two 5mm Allen sand a pen knife can't be all bad.

    Incidently, I had XT's on my old bike and the engagement of the Kings is really superior, especially if you are sarting on a steep uphill.

    M
    Maniac, thanks for that bit of advice. I just took my 2 year old iso hub rear apart after struggling with tension issues (See earlier post). The insides looked clean so I thought i'd look at the bearings. The disc side bearing had what appeared to be coffee grounds in it. I have no idea how this crap got in there. The drive side bearing was bone dry. Not sure how that happened either, the king bearing seals are stainless and you have to pry them out with a pen knife. I'm guessing whatever kind of factory grease was there dry rotted and thats what my problem was. I cleaned the whole thing out, re greased the ring drive and bearings and put it back together. It spins like magic now. I guess I can add that to the maintenance list this winter. I still consider these hubs high maintenance, but the ring drive makes it worth the trouble.

    Joker, the Hope's are pretty brain dead. You dont even need allen wrenches to take them apart.

  79. #79
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    New question here. Burgtec?/ Tune?

    Anyone got experience of these hubs? Available in Pink Cammo for the bling( Burgtec)Also Tune King and Kong hubs seem to get good press but I don't know anyone with real riding time on them. Both seem good on paper.
    I'm very happy with my Kings, just thought I'd throw those two names into the ring as ideas.
    I still maintain the engagement helps, particularly with wheely drops or unexpected exits from Shore type obstacles where a "punch to the drivetrain" as Ryan Leech calls it helps you get out of trouble.
    Any thoughts?

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