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  1. #1
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    This Can't be Right...HL Fder Compatibility

    Shimano FD-M761A

    Highline Compatibible? You decide:

    The cable rubs the Seatstay and the rocker.




    Do I have to pony up for a M771?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  2. #2
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    This is a file photo from IBike:

    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  3. #3
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    compatible with the bottom pull configuration, i.e. the 06's, but looks like not with the new top pull routing. bummer.
    Is there any room to move the deraileur down, or would it hit the chainstay?

  4. #4
    It's carbon dontcha know.
    Reputation: 6thElement's Avatar
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    I've still got problems trying to perfect mine, using a Saint mech.

    The cable catches on the rocker if the derailleur is set high enough not to catch the chain-stay at full compression. Looks like I might need to dremel some out of the chain-stay...I don't have a dremel.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the 411 folks.
    I've got a dremel, but I'll wait on that option.
    Meanwhile, I'll play with the height. Right now it's at Shimano standard, I'm sure it can come down a scoch.

    I'll aslo put a rubber tube on the line between the stop and the cable fixing bolt. JIC.

    Keep the tips comming!
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  6. #6
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    Get a 90 degree bolt that will go into the location and make the new cable clamping point perpendicular and away from the current location?

    Easier said than found for this type of bolt.

    What about an X-gen derailleur?

    If you're off by mm's, dremel the cable slot a bit and fold and double the cable back to still allow clamping.

  7. #7
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    It will hit the chainstay and take a nice little chunk with it. I know because mine was so hard to get tight enough it slid down and the made contact with the chainstay on full compression of the suspension. It didn't sound good either. I'm also a novice when it comes to putting bikes together...at least for now.

  8. #8
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    The bolt that clamps the cable threads into a hole that passes all the way through the arm it sits in. Try to back the bolt all the way out and thread it in from the back side and clamp the cable there instead. That may gain you enough clearance.



    You may have to shave a tiny bit of material off the face of the der arm to get a flat surface so the bolt head clamps the cable correctly.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  9. #9
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    i see where yer goin with that but wont it try to pull the pivot almost straight up rather than rotate it? may also mess with the cable pull ratio, kinda like how a mtb f der wont work on a road shifter and the opposite.

    zilla: i checked the f ders i had mounted up and saw somethin that might help, though not optimal. a 971 xtr's pinch bolt sits 35 mm off the od of the s/t in the middle ring of my rfx. a x-gen sits 32 mm off the burners s/t od and a x-9 looks like its identical but was in a box. both are at proper height for a 22/32/44 w/ no contact at the c/s. maybe the 3 mm is worth a slightly less crisp shift.

    also, instead of some rubber tube that will cause all kinds of sticktion (theres a word we dont use much anymore), try some small od plastic tube like we all used to cover our cables with back in the day. any shop thats been open for 15 plus years should have some in a dusty box if you dont. or i can send ya a piece myself.
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  10. #10
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    i see where yer goin with that but wont it try to pull the pivot almost straight up rather than rotate it? may also mess with the cable pull ratio, kinda like how a mtb f der wont work on a road shifter and the opposite.
    The pivot point is still well to the port side (that's "left" for land lubbers ) of the cable attachment bolt, so it will pull fine though the spring will feel stronger. Many f ders have adjustable spring tensions though, so you could back it off perhaps.

    You are right about the ratio being changed, but I don't think it would be a waste of time to try it since he has all the parts in hand.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  11. #11
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    you may be starboard, i mean right, about that and yeah, it never hurts to try. my money is on a no go or a major loss of performance. i havent seen adj springs for a decade or more. maybe i stopped lookin.
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  12. #12
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    Thanks Ts and cc. (tnx for the picture esp.) I considered that very idea when I saw where the cable was sitting. I also wondered about the leverage and angle change. Wouldn't hurt to try. I figured I'd ask if anyone had the same issue and knew of a def solution, or if my der simply wasn't compatible.

    I'll try it first with a short length of plastic tubing. Short enough not to get compressed at full pull.

    I cut and drilled a paint stick at 8.5" and 6" to replace the shock at full ext and full compression. Turns out I had the Der set dead on and lowering it did not help the cable but it put the front of the der into collision near the nose of the swing arm. The main part of the der tail and middle cleared fine. Long story short, std shimano height is pretty much all I can use with this particular der.

    Dremmeling the rocker isn't out of the question, but still a last option at this point.
    As it is the cable just barely touches but it does touch.

    I'll work on the rest of the bike for now and come back to the Fder at the end. Keep those letters and cards coming!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  13. #13
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    You could possibly try spacing the drive side out a bit (as long as you don't have chainline issues). The further out the der. begins it duties, the less of an angle for the cable.


  14. #14
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Wrong way jnc, the further out the greater the angle and conflict with the rocker.

    Zilla, I wasn't being so elegant with the stick, I was just disconnecting the rear of the shock and compressing the rear until the i2i was 6". With the new (for now) Saint der it's the tail that has the faintest of touches on the yoke at full compression if I lower the der to avoid cable rub.

  15. #15
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    If you only need a little extra clearance, take a dremel with a cutoff wheel and grind the channel the cable rides in deeper. A lot deeper. That will let the cable move inboard.

    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  16. #16
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    that, with a slight bend mod to the pinch washer, makes a ton of sense! id rather cut up a $40 der than a $200 shockstay.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement
    Wrong way jnc, the further out the greater the angle and conflict with the rocker.
    Nope...think it through...you'll get it


  18. #18
    No, that's not phonetic
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    'Nuther idea: for temporary relief, just use a strong zip tie or some wire to pull the cable towards the other ear of the d der arm:



    That might really fock things up, but it would be so ALASKAN to use bailing wire.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  19. #19
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    so movin the rings, f der and its cable closer to the stay keeps it from contactin the stay? now im really confused. from now on im gonna run red lights to keep from gettin into intersection accidents.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Nope...think it through...you'll get it
    The f. der. will have to be started further out, so instead of making the adjustment with the screws make the adjustment with the cable, pulling the der. arm further up the cable, which will make the set bolt start in a higher position, closer to the seat tube.

    That might give enough room.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzthepug
    The f. der. will have to be started further out, so instead of making the adjustment with the screws make the adjustment with the cable, pulling the der. arm further up the cable, which will make the set bolt start in a higher position, closer to the seat tube.

    That might give enough room.
    It doesn't matter if you use the bolts or the cable to set the inner stop for the fr. der...both will achieve what I was implying. I'm not sure why some of you are having a hard time picturing that. The further out the cage begins, the further INBOARD the set bolt.


  22. #22
    mr. wonderful
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    It doesn't matter if you use the bolts or the cable to set the inner stop for the fr. der...both will achieve what I was implying. I'm not sure why some of you are having a hard time picturing that. The further out the cage begins, the further INBOARD the set bolt.
    You're spot on with your thinking about moving the chainrings out to move the swing arm of the derailleur in. I don't think it's going to work with the gravity lites though because, as BZ as already figured out, the crank spindle isn't long enough using three spacers and at least one is required on each side for the cups to seat properly against the shell face. I think it would screw up the chainline anyway. If anything, I would try moving my chainrings in, if I could.

    I have the same set up: gravity lites, xt derailleur on mine and my cable is very close to touching the stay when I'm in the small ring. Curious that his hits and mine doesn't. Maybe your cable stop is slightly higher.

    I would try the tscheezy suggestion of fastening the cable on the backside of the derailleur swing arm since it's the least invasive. Since it will shorten the effective length of the swing arm, it will increase the throw of he derailleur. Now that i'm thinking about it, I may give it a try myself because the shifting from small to middle leaves a little to be desired (I have to pull out an old road bike friction shifter trick, the overshift and trim, to throw the chain).
    Last edited by dirtbag; 04-27-2008 at 06:49 PM.

  23. #23
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    db can you post a close up photo of your cabling around the crank/bb/stay area. I've been playing with mine again trying to get it right. Doesn't seem to matter how low I try to move the front der the cable is still hitting the stay/rocker.

    Also interested to see where you ran the rear bb cable, I've had to move mine outside the rocker to avoid the front cable, but then on full compression the cable compression is nasty.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtbag
    You're spot on with your thinking about moving the chainrings out to move the swing arm of the derailleur in. I don't think it's going to work with the gravity lites though because, as BZ as already figured out, the crank spindle isn't long enough using three spacers and at least one is required on each side for the cups to seat properly against the shell face. I think it would screw up the chainline anyway. If anything, I would try moving my chainrings in, if I could.

    I have the same set up: gravity lites, xt derailleur on mine and my cable is very close to touching the stay when I'm in the small ring. Curious that his hits and mine doesn't. Maybe your cable stop is slightly higher.

    I would try the tscheezy suggestion of fastening the cable on the backside of the derailleur swing arm since it's the least invasive. Since it will shorten the effective length of the swing arm, it will increase the throw of he derailleur. Now that i'm thinking about it, I may give it a try myself because the shifting from small to middle leaves a little to be desired (I have to pull out an old road bike friction shifter trick, the overshift and trim, to throw the chain).
    I totally agree. However, I thought he might be able to run all the spacing on the drive side as I have done in the past to correct spacing issues.

    I also agree that Tscheezy's suggestion may be the best alternative. I would likely shape the pinch area a bit (dremel) so that it was fairly intuitive to run it inboard, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work very well.


  25. #25
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    I finally got something I'm vaguely happy with. I didn't mess with the crank spacers, they're still as specified for my setup in the instructions, 1 either side as the ISCG Blackspire doesn't effect the bottom bracket.

    Rear derailleur runs outside the rocker.


    Two pieces of plastic tube from a Nokon kit cushioning the front derailleur cable from the rocker and stay. I couldn't avoid cable contact.

  26. #26
    mr. wonderful
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    I just recabled my RD last week and decided to run it outside of the FD cable. So far, so good. My RD cabling is pretty standard, as far as I can tell, through the link up and over link pivot and the link brace, and then outside of the FD cable seemed to give me the straightest shot to the first cable tie.

    second shot=FD cable clearance in middle ring (about 1/16")
    third shot=FD cable clearance in little ring (about 1/32")
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #27
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    I wonder if it's the cable stops at different heights then as I'd love that much clearance, I just looked at trying to measure it but gave up.

    If I try to run the rear der inside the rocker I just end up with more interference on the front cable. I'll see how it rides with my current setup before I mess with it again.

  28. #28
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    I went through all this,and decided to go bottom pull and put the rear mech cable over the top of the chainstay

  29. #29
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    how did ya pull off the bottom pull?
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  30. #30
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    looks to me like dirtbags old style xt's pinch bolt is about 3, maybe 5 mm more inboard than the new dual pull stuff and does not have such a long ear above it that pushes the cable out further still. sooooo.... if ya cant swallow a sram f der which has worked on the last 2 seasons demo rigs, this seems like the fix and ill bet we all have 1 layin around anyway. get it outta moth balls, throw it in front of a bottle of simple green, check to see if the pivots are alive, lube it up and bolt it on. success!

    of course ya could always spend a cpl days puttin up with crappy performance fretting over how to make a new $40 der work, hack it up a bit, add a zip tie, maybe mess up the chainline and sacrifice a crankset for good measure (excuse the pun) when the splines fail, then cut into the stays voiding the warranty youll most likely miss when it breaks at that mod down the road. oh, and eventually give up and throw out the der.

    hey, whatevers best for you.
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  31. #31
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Just tried my 07 XTR off my Sultan, the cable clears the stays and rocker.
    The L limit screw won't let me move the cage out far enough so I don't drop the chain shifting down to granny :/

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement
    The L limit screw won't let me move the cage out far enough so I don't drop the chain shifting down to granny :/
    You should have no problem using cable tension to limit the inner stop....use the barrel adjuster to fine tune it.


  33. #33
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Indexing is just a minor issue now

    edit: After much fcking about the XTR will fit and work, giving a minimal of cable clearance from the stay.
    Last edited by 6thElement; 04-28-2008 at 08:44 AM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    how did ya pull off the bottom pull?
    I made a cable stop from an old ft der clamp and mounted it on the seat post under a bottom pull sram.I think I like the 06 routing,nice and tidy and it hasn't been a problem so far.

  35. #35
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    All this is making me glad I have the 06 cable routing too!

  36. #36
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    what is the ideal front deraileur?
    (besides none...)

  37. #37
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Something with a set back pinch bolt, the H-L screws easily accessible from the front and a readily available sawn-off 5mm hex for you to be able to mount it.

    The current generation Saint doesn't satisfy these needs, the current XTR barely does.

    edit: dirtbags is one of only a few of the new top routed FD's I've seen pictures posted, any idea which XT derailleur it is you've got on there db?

  38. #38
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    I like the 06 routing too. The new ft d routing is weak. The new rear d routing rubs the rocker too much for my liking and why is the re d routed along the seat stay but the rear brake still on the chain stay. I like symmetry.

  39. #39
    mr. wonderful
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement
    any idea which XT derailleur it is you've got on there db?
    old school FD-M751 to go along with my RD-M951 with the built in rollamajigie

  40. #40
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    dont get me wrong but i dont get it. a new top pull sram f der works fine so why go to all the trouble?
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  41. #41
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    and this is why the smart guys hold onto old stuff as long as its not killed. again, from what ive been able to find so far, any shimano f der before the dual pul days should be a bolt on, no fuss unit. i dont own a highline but im curious as to what you guys find out. ya never know what tomorrow holds. and itll fit the timeline well for future reference.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanedawg
    I like the 06 routing too. The new ft d routing is weak. The new rear d routing rubs the rocker too much for my liking and why is the re d routed along the seat stay but the rear brake still on the chain stay. I like symmetry.
    Yeah,I liked the look of the 06 routing so I set up my 08 the same.
    Having the brake and rear d cables down close to the pivot results in them sliding and flexing very little.

  43. #43
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    dont get me wrong but i dont get it. a new top pull sram f der works fine so why go to all the trouble?
    Not sure where you're getting the confirmation of the SRAM working without issue?

    edit: Can't quite see which model the demo bikes had on them...
    2007 Interbike Dirt Demo

    edit2:
    Okay, SRAM on the demo, just can't see which plus someone snagged the M751 I was watching on ebay...
    Last edited by 6thElement; 04-29-2008 at 05:53 AM.

  44. #44
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    I've been following this and am very greatful for all the input.
    Is there a consensus on which model/brand Fder will do the trick?

    Maybe I can use the cable bolt to hold some kind of extention platform and tap another cable bolt into that. Unfortunately I haven't had any wrenching time since the w/e so ....
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement
    Not sure where you're getting the confirmation of the SRAM working without issue..... Can't quite see which model the demo bikes had on them
    cheeseys pic shows a x-gen on the orange bike, yers has a x-9. dt specced em with the srams and not once has a issue cropped up. then again, i dont remember anyone sayin somethin about the shimanos before now either.

    as i wrote above, i did some measurements and the sram stuff has a 3mm advantage over the current shimano, just enough to clear the stay. the downside is the srams dont shift nearly as nice as their japanese brothers but they dont outright suck either, just slower and heavier in feel is my experience with 3 of em.

    yer other option is a older, non dual pull shimano unit (50 series and earlier?) which also has a shorter arm thusly avoidin cable contact. its just a matter of actuater arm width man. nuthin too fancy. so dont be too impressed with my amazin skills.
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  46. #46
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    ive got a spare x-gen. say the word and ill send it to ya.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Unfortunately I haven't had any wrenching time since the w/e so ....
    Just show us some pics already, what is this some kind of super top secret Highline??? Jeeze!



  48. #48
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    no, its a super top secret POOFTA-BLING highline.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    no, its a super top secret POOFTA-BLING highline.
    He has to go buy a heat gun to get the sticker off his fork for the unveiling, it's a german made version on backorder that will take 2-3 weeks to get in.

  50. #50
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    and another week to have it powdercoated gold before it can be used. havent heard if hes gonna do the retractable cord mod himself or wait another week and send it to be pushed.
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