Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123

    Burning through Burner travel

    I seem to have the sag set correctly at 25%(180psi,150spv,220 riding weight). From observing the shock O-ring it appears that all the travel is used during minor to mid intensity impacts. It doesn't feel like it is bottoming while riding. I was just curious if others experienced the same and if it is possilble that I need to up the main spring psi.

  2. #2
    rr
    rr is offline
    I don't do PC
    Reputation: rr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    7,415
    180 should be fine on the main psi, 150 in the spv sounds high, I run 170 in the main and 115 in the spv at 195lbs. Check your i2i and make sure the shock isn't stuck down, happened to both of my air shocks on the Burner, the shock will ride farther into the stroke also if it's stuck down.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    180 should be fine on the main psi, 150 in the spv sounds high, I run 170 in the main and 115 in the spv at 195lbs. Check your i2i and make sure the shock isn't stuck down, happened to both of my air shocks on the Burner, the shock will ride farther into the stroke also if it's stuck down.
    The shock is not stuck down and performs well. I just seems it uses alot of travel easily but I am still getting used to it after comming off a hardtail. As for the spv, I could probably lower it to 130-140 but I like a firm xc type ride and I am stiil experimenting.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kendogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by bikenut316
    The shock is not stuck down and performs well. I just seems it uses alot of travel easily but I am still getting used to it after comming off a hardtail. As for the spv, I could probably lower it to 130-140 but I like a firm xc type ride and I am stiil experimenting.
    My o-ring used to just slide down while riding. If you don't feel it bottoming hard, you're probably fine. It used a lot of it's travel, but needed a pretty big hit to bottom out.

  5. #5
    The Uberest of Micks.
    Reputation: ubermick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    140
    Quote Originally Posted by kendogg
    My o-ring used to just slide down while riding..
    How very "Brokeback"....


    "Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same."
    - Oscar Wilde

  6. #6
    Can Tree Member
    Reputation: Dad Man Walking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    180 should be fine on the main psi, 150 in the spv sounds high, I run 170 in the main and 115 in the spv at 195lbs. Check your i2i and make sure the shock isn't stuck down, happened to both of my air shocks on the Burner, the shock will ride farther into the stroke also if it's stuck down.
    I agree with rroeder that your pressures sound high...I would suggest lowering the SPV down to 120-125 even if you like things firm, but also softening the main spring a bit. I started out thinking that firmer was faster, but found that the bike rode better with the lower main air pressure. I've posted on other threads that I think the 3-way works best with a relatively firm platform but a lot of squish once you blow the platform. I have found that it will suck up a decent sized hit at low speeds and use a lot of of the travel (like when you are crawling over a root or something). But there is still plenty of travel to take on rocks and roots at speed. If you are not bottoming out on your rides, I'd say tune it so if feels good and don't worry as much about how much travel you are using until you actually start bottoming out.
    Dad is sad.
    Very, very sad.
    He had a bad day.
    What a day Dad had!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kendogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by ubermick
    How very "Brokeback"....


    I guess taken out of context, that entire reply sounds very nasty.

  8. #8
    Motion activated
    Reputation: Steve71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    2,985
    Quote Originally Posted by bikenut316
    I seem to have the sag set correctly at 25%(180psi,150spv,220 riding weight). From observing the shock O-ring it appears that all the travel is used during minor to mid intensity impacts. It doesn't feel like it is bottoming while riding. I was just curious if others experienced the same and if it is possilble that I need to up the main spring psi.
    That’s pretty much what I experienced with my Burner. The suspension felt pretty linear and it was difficult to set the rebound so that it worked well for both granny gear climbing and repetitive (large-ish) high speed impacts. It worked very well 90% of the time, but the frame felt so solid, like it could handle anything, that it was easy to forget it only had 4" of travel. I guess it didn't help that I had a 120mm fork up front.

    The up side was that it tracked very, very well at low to medium speeds on medium & low sized impacts. Better than a 4" bike should.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dad Man Walking
    I agree with rroeder that your pressures sound high...I would suggest lowering the SPV down to 120-125 even if you like things firm, but also softening the main spring a bit. I started out thinking that firmer was faster, but found that the bike rode better with the lower main air pressure. I've posted on other threads that I think the 3-way works best with a relatively firm platform but a lot of squish once you blow the platform. I have found that it will suck up a decent sized hit at low speeds and use a lot of of the travel (like when you are crawling over a root or something). But there is still plenty of travel to take on rocks and roots at speed. If you are not bottoming out on your rides, I'd say tune it so if feels good and don't worry as much about how much travel you are using until you actually start bottoming out.
    What do think about setting sag 25%(9.5MM)? I agree, my spv does sound high but my main 180 for 220lb riding weight doesn't seem high.

  10. #10
    Can Tree Member
    Reputation: Dad Man Walking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by bikenut316
    What do think about setting sag 25%(9.5MM)? I agree, my spv does sound high but my main 180 for 220lb riding weight doesn't seem high.
    When (if?) you lower the SPV pressure, the sag will also be affected since both air chambers help float the bike. I agree that 180 is not a lot at your weight..I am the "big squish" advocate and was running around 170-175 myself (before putting on XR rockers), but with a lower SPV setting. If you reduce the SPV to maybe 120 or so the bike will probably settle to around 30% sag. Or you could increase the platform effect with a higher SPV setting, and let the bike settle down the 30+% sag with a lower main spring pressure.

    As I softened mine up, I also stopped paying as much attention to the millimeters and focused more on feedback from the butt-o-meter. Now I probably run it around 33%. Sounds like a lot, but the bike does not feel like it is squatting down at all and I'm not blowing through the travel on my descents; and it lets the suspension cycle the way I want it to over larger low-speed obstacles. I run the rebound 3/4 or more to full fast, that adjustment was as important as the air pressures in getting the shock to work right.
    Dad is sad.
    Very, very sad.
    He had a bad day.
    What a day Dad had!

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dad Man Walking
    When (if?) you lower the SPV pressure, the sag will also be affected since both air chambers help float the bike. I agree that 180 is not a lot at your weight..I am the "big squish" advocate and was running around 170-175 myself (before putting on XR rockers), but with a lower SPV setting. If you reduce the SPV to maybe 120 or so the bike will probably settle to around 30% sag. Or you could increase the platform effect with a higher SPV setting, and let the bike settle down the 30+% sag with a lower main spring pressure.

    As I softened mine up, I also stopped paying as much attention to the millimeters and focused more on feedback from the butt-o-meter. Now I probably run it around 33%. Sounds like a lot, but the bike does not feel like it is squatting down at all and I'm not blowing through the travel on my descents; and it lets the suspension cycle the way I want it to over larger low-speed obstacles. I run the rebound 3/4 or more to full fast, that adjustment was as important as the air pressures in getting the shock to work right.
    What is your riding weight at 170-175psi? What type of terrain do you like best to narrow down your spv setting? I adjusted my spv on a fireroad with light bumps and dips and no big hits to somewhat isolate the spv platform.

  12. #12
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,480
    My two cents is that the Swinger didn't really do justice for the Burner's rear end. If you can't get it dialed, might want to search Ebay for an 04 Float R PP. I suggest that one because I feel the Burner benefits from the slightly smaller air chamber (as compared to the newer models), especially at your weight. Unfortunately I have not been able to get which valving the 04 Float is set at, but it's not hard to find out and old Floats are not hard to find.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dad Man Walking
    When (if?) you lower the SPV pressure, the sag will also be affected since both air chambers help float the bike. I agree that 180 is not a lot at your weight..I am the "big squish" advocate and was running around 170-175 myself (before putting on XR rockers), but with a lower SPV setting. If you reduce the SPV to maybe 120 or so the bike will probably settle to around 30% sag. Or you could increase the platform effect with a higher SPV setting, and let the bike settle down the 30+% sag with a lower main spring pressure.

    As I softened mine up, I also stopped paying as much attention to the millimeters and focused more on feedback from the butt-o-meter. Now I probably run it around 33%. Sounds like a lot, but the bike does not feel like it is squatting down at all and I'm not blowing through the travel on my descents; and it lets the suspension cycle the way I want it to over larger low-speed obstacles. I run the rebound 3/4 or more to full fast, that adjustment was as important as the air pressures in getting the shock to work right.
    I took your advice on the spv and lowered it to 125. I bounced back and forth from 125 to 130. 130 seemed to be the borderline between hard and complient. Have not been able to ride a real trail yet to measure off road performance.

  14. #14
    Can Tree Member
    Reputation: Dad Man Walking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by bikenut316
    I took your advice on the spv and lowered it to 125. I bounced back and forth from 125 to 130. 130 seemed to be the borderline between hard and complient. Have not been able to ride a real trail yet to measure off road performance.
    It is a pain in the butt to set this shock up, no doubt...the SPV and main spring settings are inter-related, and you can't just "dial in" a platform without considering how that will affect the performance when you blow through the platform. Also, since the the platform is achieved by a position-sensitive damping circuit (vs.speed sensitive), the amount of travel you have in the heavily damped platform mode varies...I think that the lower SPV pressures can get you closer to the threshold where you would blow the platform, so it is softer and it blows quicker...but then it would blow to a relatively firmer main spring. These are all my hunches...the product documentation is not great and there have been no Homeriffic charts plotting rider weight, SPV and main spring settings, and platform performance. I don't even know what that chart would look like...but I think if someone could figure out how to plot that it would be extremely enlightening.

    I didn't respond to your earlier post about my own settings. The settings people use are all over the map in this regard. I was riding at 220 w/o gear but I don't load up too heavy, so our settings should be comparable. I was riding on fireroads that almost usually have rocks and rubble in them; some sections get very rocky. My goal (then and now) was not to smooth out the low-speed stuff while climbing, but to smooth out the long descents that follow our fireroad climbs out here (I was coming off of a full rigid bike and didn't think I needed a sofa for a bike).

    I kept notes when I was getting the bike set up. I started at 180/140 with rebound 1/2 open--plenty of platform but really didn't do much for me on the descents. I messed around with lower SPV pressures and was running around 180/120 with the rebound open around 15 clicks from full closed (in other words, not a lot of rebound damping) when I got this "whoa...now I get it" feeling at medium speed on a rocky flat section of trail. Subequent to that, I've played around with the SPV between 115 and 125, with the main ranging between 180 and 165 (higher SPV, lower main). Before changing the rockers, I was usually running 170/120 with rebound 4 clicks from full open.

    At the beginning of this process, I called Casey; he checked with one of the big guys working there and told me "try 200-210/75 for a 220-225 lb. rider on fire roads." I tried 200/100 on a couple of rides and didn't like it. What I think is going on with that setting is the rider is trying to get the shock to be supple on low speed stuff...i.e., very little platform since the HL chassis does not really suffer from pedal bobbing. With almost no SPV pressure, you need a lot more main pressure to float the bike, so you end up with a very firm main spring (which probably takes a lot of rebound damping to control). And that may be great for some riders. Didn't float my boat.

    Experimenting is good...take notes and trust your butt. And don't ignore the fork.
    Last edited by Dad Man Walking; 03-04-2006 at 09:34 PM.
    Dad is sad.
    Very, very sad.
    He had a bad day.
    What a day Dad had!

  15. #15
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,480
    I forgot one thing-
    It should be noted that those shocks on Supergo bikes aside from the Float R PP were supplied by Superblo and not Turner. So some tuning issues may exist. Additionally, I remember going through those listings when they first came out and the Float RL models were advertised at 3.6" travel while the Manipoo models were listed as 3.5. I remember several have less damper shaft length exposed with the manipoos than with the Floats.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dad Man Walking
    When (if?) you lower the SPV pressure, the sag will also be affected since both air chambers help float the bike. I agree that 180 is not a lot at your weight..I am the "big squish" advocate and was running around 170-175 myself (before putting on XR rockers), but with a lower SPV setting. If you reduce the SPV to maybe 120 or so the bike will probably settle to around 30% sag. Or you could increase the platform effect with a higher SPV setting, and let the bike settle down the 30+% sag with a lower main spring pressure.

    As I softened mine up, I also stopped paying as much attention to the millimeters and focused more on feedback from the butt-o-meter. Now I probably run it around 33%. Sounds like a lot, but the bike does not feel like it is squatting down at all and I'm not blowing through the travel on my descents; and it lets the suspension cycle the way I want it to over larger low-speed obstacles. I run the rebound 3/4 or more to full fast, that adjustment was as important as the air pressures in getting the shock to work right.
    Do you have xr rockers with a 3-way, if so, what do you think?

  17. #17
    Can Tree Member
    Reputation: Dad Man Walking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by bikenut316
    Do you have xr rockers with a 3-way, if so, what do you think?
    I have the XR rockers, which is why I was referring to air pressures in the past tense...everything is higher now to get the relatively the same amount of platform and sag. I think that it may have "tamed" the shock a bit, but it was a subtle difference and I am not immune to the placebo effect when I've just dropped some drachmas on a new part. Other Homers have stated they felt that the improvement was more noticeable (certainly nobody has had anything negative to say about the upgrade).

    There was a thread a week or so back about whether the rockers were "recommended" for bigger riders, due to the higher leverage ratios on the shock. I don't think we really got to the bottom of that point (be it fact, rumor, or recommendation). I can say that at my weight (220) the shock pressures are still within the Manitou specs. And I thought (but here I could be wrong) that other 4" bikes used the same 6.5 x 1.5 shock spec; if so then the basic leverage ratio would not be extraordinary. Maybe it's "hard on the shock" but to me it's just a part and it's gonna die some time...so if it poops its drawers, who's to say whether its time had come or whether I killed it...it's just as dead either way, and I have an excuse to try something new (hmmm....maybe a tasty PUSH'ed RP3?)
    Dad is sad.
    Very, very sad.
    He had a bad day.
    What a day Dad had!

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dad Man Walking
    I have the XR rockers, which is why I was referring to air pressures in the past tense...everything is higher now to get the relatively the same amount of platform and sag. I think that it may have "tamed" the shock a bit, but it was a subtle difference and I am not immune to the placebo effect when I've just dropped some drachmas on a new part. Other Homers have stated they felt that the improvement was more noticeable (certainly nobody has had anything negative to say about the upgrade).

    There was a thread a week or so back about whether the rockers were "recommended" for bigger riders, due to the higher leverage ratios on the shock. I don't think we really got to the bottom of that point (be it fact, rumor, or recommendation). I can say that at my weight (220) the shock pressures are still within the Manitou specs. And I thought (but here I could be wrong) that other 4" bikes used the same 6.5 x 1.5 shock spec; if so then the basic leverage ratio would not be extraordinary. Maybe it's "hard on the shock" but to me it's just a part and it's gonna die some time...so if it poops its drawers, who's to say whether its time had come or whether I killed it...it's just as dead either way, and I have an excuse to try something new (hmmm....maybe a tasty PUSH'ed RP3?)
    I just finished experimenting with differerent PSIs and noticed that when I used a high 190, 200, 210 in an attempt to slow compression, rebound control is lost, suspension feel suffers and the seemingly quick use of travel is barely affected. Back to 180psi. It may be time for a Pushed Float R with some XR rockers. Wife is going to kill me if this addiction doesn't first.

  19. #19
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,480
    Try the Float first, under my suggestion. If you like it, then ride it because it's not gonna be too easy to get XR rockers now.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •