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  1. #1
    rr
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    Burner horst link question

    OK, so I was lubing and checking the pivot bolts this weekend and noticed something odd, I unbolted the shock from the rocker and cycled the suspension fully to check it and make sure it felt fine, while doing so I noticed the horst link pivot did not rotate AT ALL, not at any time thru the travel does it move, the chainstay/seatstay orientation stays the same throught the travel. Does that sound right?, the suspension feels fine and I'm assuming it's working correctly. Does the HL pivot move under other forces?

  2. #2
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    I believe the movement the seatstay makes from the chainstay is practically minimal. It's perfectly normal, as I noted the same thing myself. Apparently, it's pretty much there to relieve stresses as the suspension cycles and lends credibility to the HL being less and less important over the years as Turner was designing around axle path anyhow.

    It moves, but it's miniscule.

  3. #3
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    It does move, but only minimal - I've tried compressing the suspension on my Spec FSR without shock and was also surprised.

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    just another example of the horst link myth

  5. #5
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    I'd agree with that I suppose. I've noticed the same even with it hooked up to the Spot front end. Unless your suspension is noticably damaged or binding the pivot's going to move as designed.
    It sure works well though! I absolutely love the way my suspension hooks up when climbing technical stuff.
    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  6. #6
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    Yeah, it doesn't look like it moves when you watch it - I agree. However, when I look at the the bushings after a couple of months, and the way the grease and its cargo of contaminants has been distributed around, it looks like a joint that has seen plenty of movement. I'm not particularly inclined to doubt that it does something. After all, virutally all suspension bikes allow for some kind of motion in that area - even if it's only a carbon do-hickey a la Yeti, or chainstays that flex vertically like those on my club-mate's Salsa Dos Niner. I don't think all these designers would all be allowing for this movement if it they didn't really need to.

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    Please refer to post number two, canoe.

  8. #8
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    think what you want.....horst links are a friggin scam

  9. #9
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    This seems to show the whole irony. Horst links for Turners were popular when travel was less than the new bikes with TNT. It certainly has to do with the total angle of the travel deviation to be important. Thus, a Horst link must be more important the more the travel.

    However, to say Horst was a scam is dangerous.

    That would mean that Dave Turner lied to the initial followers who he touted, and licensed the initial Specialized patent for, (which my burner has a sticker on) and the following ICT stuff.

    If it was a scam, D.T. was guilty as anyone.

  10. #10
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    This seems to show the whole irony. Horst links for Turners were popular when travel was less than the new bikes with TNT. It certainly has to do with the total angle of the travel deviation to be important. Thus, a Horst link must be more important the more the travel.

    However, to say Horst was a scam is dangerous.

    That would mean that Dave Turner lied to the initial followers who he touted, and licensed the initial Specialized patent for, (which my burner has a sticker on) and the following ICT stuff.

    If it was a scam, D.T. was guilty as anyone.
    Horst himself scammed everyone clearly! what a marketing genius!

  11. #11
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    Who cares at this point? Do you look for the buzzwords and acronyms or do you want a good ride?

    I have always gone for the latter. A good ride never goes out of style.

  12. #12
    rr
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    Hey, I was just curious why the pivot didn't move and wanted to make sure there wasn't a problem, the explanations here make sense and I'm sure it's there for a reason, I certainly wasn't trying to imply the HL was a scam or anything, please!, no HL bashing

    I'm pretty sure Mr Fo is just being Fo, thanks guys.

    BTW, the TNT pivot on the RFX noticably moves
    Last edited by rr; 11-27-2006 at 08:10 AM.

  13. #13
    TNC
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    Let me ask a stupid question.

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    This seems to show the whole irony. Horst links for Turners were popular when travel was less than the new bikes with TNT. It certainly has to do with the total angle of the travel deviation to be important. Thus, a Horst link must be more important the more the travel.

    However, to say Horst was a scam is dangerous.

    That would mean that Dave Turner lied to the initial followers who he touted, and licensed the initial Specialized patent for, (which my burner has a sticker on) and the following ICT stuff.

    If it was a scam, D.T. was guilty as anyone.
    The observations here seem to suggest that "looking" at the HL link was done with the bike stationary in a stand and without any load...and I guess with the shock disconnected. Does the HL move or cycle a little differently with the shock in place and with a load applied?...like a 200 pound rider going down a trail and running over trail obstacles? I don't claim to have any engineering knowledge about this whatsoever, but it seems like there might actually be some "magic" occuring when the suspension is cycling under real trail operation.

    I agree that lidarman may be on to something as far as his comment about HL being more of an impact on longer travel on heavier bikes.

  14. #14
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    The "magic" is that when you apply torque to the cranks and the drive wheel moves you forward, the dropout is forced forward, increasing pressure in the chainstay's plane and on that pivot.

  15. #15
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    The observations here seem to suggest that "looking" at the HL link was done with the bike stationary in a stand and without any load...and I guess with the shock disconnected. Does the HL move or cycle a little differently with the shock in place and with a load applied?...like a 200 pound rider going down a trail and running over trail obstacles? I don't claim to have any engineering knowledge about this whatsoever, but it seems like there might actually be some "magic" occuring when the suspension is cycling under real trail operation.

    I agree that lidarman may be on to something as far as his comment about HL being more of an impact on longer travel on heavier bikes.
    Yeah, that was my question too when I asked about other forces moving the HL, sounds like JC's explanation makes the most sense, if it does move minimally then it is VERY minimal cause I made a little mark at the pivot and at no time did I see the mark move. I was thinking that braking forces might make it move, the HL is supposed to provide active suspension during braking.

  16. #16
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    The Horst Link in itself providing "active" suspension during braking in itself is a farce. Even the supposedly conclusive tests on the HL that spawned the "active suspension" era weren't showing much more than a percentage of increase that could have been due to tons of different things, such as the rest of the suspension. It also was never revealed how the testing was done. Laden, unladen? What degree? Rider position, bike attitude, etc. All total nonsense.

  17. #17
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I'm pretty sure Mr Fo is just being Fo
    thanks for the kind words

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