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Thread: Any theories?

  1. #1
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    Any theories?

    I have waded through the TNT unbiased riding reports to discover the TNT bikes ride as well as the original Horst pivot bikes, which were considered by most to be the best active suspension system available. So are there any theories as to why the new TNT is comparable to the Horst pivot bikes but by definition cannot be as "active". Is it just due to the carefull TNT pivot placement and newer shocks that mimic the active 4 bar Horst pivot bikes or am I missing something with regards to the nature of the new TNT bikes?
    Are they as active as the original?

  2. #2
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    Reputation: CDtofer's Avatar
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    For gods sake man, do a search there are thread after thread of all manner of HL vs TnT discussion. There is another thread about half a dozen down from yours that is asking nearly the same thing, there are quite a few links in it.

    SEE HERE


    If you find people on this board a little short on this topic its because its been brought up time and time again, good luck huntin and readin!

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    Having read the reviews, one can pretty much form their own opinion on this or that. The theory discussion raged on for months even before people had a chance to try it. (some continue to theorize w/o making any attempt to try either bike)

    If you use the search function you'll find several very long and detailed threads that provided convincing arguements in both directions.

    If you take the locust of the opinions of actual feedback, which is pretty much what the R in MTBR is about, you'll get a reasonable idea what to expect.

    Performance reports and theories at hyper extremes are as subjective as anything else so while it's certainly worth consideration, it needs to be averaged into the whole picture like everything else. (Subjective being not wrong, but limited to that particular perspective and/or experience)

    In the end you'll best serve your question by trying it yourself if you can. You can't really test ride a bike from a keyboard. Theory is a very good guidline but there are tons of factors that can (and have) been left out that can completly change a theoretical conclusion.

    This was a really great opportunity to put the long standing theories to the test b/c before now, people were comparing completely different bikes, even different brands, with different geometry shocks, frame tubes, wheels yatta. For the first time several people got to test A vs.B on their own rigs with only A and B changing.

    Even the most brilliant minds who worked on the development of the atomic bomb admitted they weren't entirely sure what to expect at test time.

    G'luck!
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 03-23-2006 at 07:45 AM.
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    Slight misinterpretation of my question. Basically it was assumed that the horst pivot 4 bar suspension was the only true fully active suspension under braking and pedalling, but it appears that the new TNT can achieve the above with out the horst pivot. I appreciate that few can tell any difference even if there is any, just facinated that no one in the past has managed to achieve the "holy grail" with out a Horst link.

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    there is no holy grail. thats folks 1st mistake. there are the haves and have nots. its all a compromise and in somes opinion, the tnt or hl on a turner chassis are the best of these compromises for a given task. some, not so much. just choose yer weopon and attack the trail with a smile. we will be here for most any question ya have but perhaps not this one. its old, used up and mostly pointless, not that its yer fault by any means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogvet
    I appreciate that few can tell any difference even if there is any, just facinated that no one in the past has managed to achieve the "holy grail" with out a Horst link.

    A few have, Ventana has. Certainly many reports, even from Horst fans, have found the Yeti 575 suspension felt a great deal like the 5 Spot, and this was more than a year before the TNT came out. Do a search on Tscheezy's 575 reviews for example.

    What you're asking for is an explanation of why it does what it does. Well, thus far every design explanation I've ever seen could be and has been debated to the minutia from every direction w/o a clear winner in the paper debate. It still comes down to how the end product performs.

    There's been plenty of design theories that rode like crap in implementation, and plenty of others that looked like crap on paper and rode fantastically.

    Not every HL is a great ride, not every SSP is inferior, but the theories often try to prove otherwise.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogvet
    I appreciate that few can tell any difference even if there is any, just facinated that no one in the past has managed to achieve the "holy grail" with out a Horst link.
    This is where I think you are making an incorrect assumption, which in turn leads to your questioning. I have ridden a pile of different bikes, and am pretty sensitive to setup. In the instance of other faux-bars like Ventana X5s, Cove Hustlers, Yeti 575s, etc etc, none of them exhibit readily apparent "negative" braking effects or obvious pedaling deficiencies when equipped with a good shock. It's not that TNT did something so right, it's that you are assuming everyone else (non-Horst) did something so wrong. The presence or absence of a Horst link is totally overshadowed by other factors in design, and lots of bikes lacking the HL come together as packages swimmingly.

    This is seriously a topic where taking someone else's advice (hey, including mine) probably won't bring you closer to truth. Go ride a bunch of bikes and see for yourself.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

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    Theory

    First line comment. The TNT on dirt is not enough "un active" to be percieveable by most. All calculations aside, the difference in the dirt is nominal at best and in a un biased riders head impercievable. Does a difference exist? Yes, as Steve from Jackson Hole as proven as hard as he can through his physics program.

    Second and third line theroretical answer. The reason IMO is that it is not only comparable but to some a touch more stabil under braking. Why? fully active or damn close may be too active when riding rough terrain. I have searched my thoughts on every ride since last summer as to why. So like the DHR for 5 years that has recieved rave reviews for braking and handling in the rough, the shorter travel, single low pivot Turner bikes are getting a small dose of that stabilizing Braking Induced Rebound Suppression. I say supression not compression, as the down force from the rear brake is not enough to cause an actual compression, but the down force is just enough to create less rebound bounce when wacking hard trail objects. Now this force is only applicable when there is traction! Please keep in mind that just like there are good and bad Horst Link designs over the years and not all single pivots are the same, and the same can be said about "mini links", there will be designs in all families that lock out under pedaling or are bouncy or brake jack, or brake compress etc.

    4th answer, see above for braking. Under pedaling there is no difference on the trail. The 1 guy from NM who tested the 2 against each other and found the HL bike a better extreme climber made comments that were opposite of what other testers said about the TNT's climbing traits. Is he wrong? No, in his tests and opinion the HL was better. Are the other testers that had positive comments about the tnt rear wrong, NO again. They thought the tnt climbed with better snap, then they ordered tnt rears for their old bikes. Why are they opposite when comparing the 2 pivots? There is no definative answer when comparing something so close. It is still a fully active bike. The German dude with the online share-ware pointed that out, even Steve from JH may have conceded that for pedaling. The total axle path difference on any of the models from HL to tnt is tiny, but when you look at the axle path comparison between HL and tnt where pedaling loads are actually applicable the difference is even less. That is because you do not pedal in the first part or last part of travel. If someone can actually pedal through the full range of travel, they are only able to put out serious torque loads in the middle of the travel. A Horst Link that is very close to the axle horizontally will have no effect on the pedaling.You can take the Horst Link off a T$&%^ or a E@#$%^&* and it will still pedal the same as the axles path is largely determined by the main pivots location when the HL is right next to the rear axle. And almost every "single pivot" is in a different location from model to model and brand to brand.

    I am sorry if I dis appoint or piss anyone off. These are my views based on trail time and lots of anal isis. I will not attempt to patent my theory.

    DT

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    good mornin david! hows yer day? ok, now back to the circles and lines so we can have our 29er. and rail. and.....
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I will not attempt to patent my theory.

    DT
    But someone else apparently might....

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    I thought I read something similar on the turner web site about why the axel path didn't change that much, and why the ride was similar.

    I road an HL bike one time for one day, and so far I haven't notice any difference between that bike and my TNT version, this isn't worth much though, other opinions on here are much more educated.


    I will not attempt to patent my theory.
    Not to be a smart A**, but don't you think you should before someone else does?

  12. #12
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    DT et al
    Many thanks for all responses I think that has actually crystallised, (particularly from DT) what I was trying to ask.

  13. #13
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    It sounds like you are doing what I did 2 weeks ago. I purchased the TNT version and rode last night for the first time. Any apprehensions I had about TNT were out the door. I have ridden Specialized Horst before and the TNT blows it away.

    Take the advise I was given. Just buy one and don't think about it.

    BTW, thanks DT for the rant, one of the reasons I love Turner!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    But someone else apparently might....
    I hope not because then I'll have to change my signature.

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    An expert I am, NOT-but I have found from riding HL bikes and single pivots that body english makes more of an impact than the suspension design. Basicly in my unedgucated theories, the rider has way more impact on the way the suspension works than the pivot placement or design. Then dont forget the actual usage of the brakes, an old motocross trick is to drag the rear brake over rough ground if the rear end is hopping from side to side, the rear will squat a bit forces the rearend to follow the front, compress the shock and slow down the rebound. (this is just an example)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
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  21. #21
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    Just drink the damn coolaid already.....

  22. #22
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    When did DT drop the Horst Link!? What is all this talk about TNT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chingon
    What is all this talk about TNT?
    In an attempt to fulfill Bikezilla's requests for a Electronic Ball Massager (EBM), DT added the Tantalizing Nut Tickler. Same difference.
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