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  1. #1
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    5 Spot knock-off? - KHS 2000/1000

    KHS has a several page ad in the December issue of MBA showing off their 2007 line. They have gone to horst links on their higher end FS bikes. I was amazed at how similar the FM 2000/1000 resembles the 5 Spots sans TNT (2005 spot). 6" of travel but otherwise very much alike. They mention the horst linkage but no mention of ICT. How do they get away with that one?

    I did a side by of the geometry, 5 Spot vs. KHS AM, based on a large frame. Very very similar!
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  2. #2
    ... I guess you won't be
    Reputation: jokermtb's Avatar
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    that taco is gonna burst....and may emit a fine spray!
    Yes, we do indeed rock...http://www.myspace.com/spokedrunkies

  3. #3
    CURB HUCK!!!!!!
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    well it certainly is obvious where they found their inspiration from, I've liked them from that new add and i knew it looked like a mix of some bikes that have and are out
    look at the khs decal too

    taco? que? como?
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  4. #4
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    What's wrong with Kona?
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  5. #5
    Mexican e-rider
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    So how come Tony hasn't sued KHS??? Too chiken to fight the big guys???
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmadaleno
    So how come Tony hasn't sued KHS??? Too chiken to fight the big guys???
    Either that or he just found out about from my post. You know he's lurking

  7. #7
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    khs has made a turner clone of 1 sort or another for alotta years. just never trusted the long term life myself. thats a interestin s/a / t/t combo. puts the b/bkt way up front and shortens the w/b up quite a bit ill bet. as for the tnt sticker, that frames gotta be within the ells envelope, doesnt it?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  8. #8
    Silence and Thunder...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokermtb
    that taco is gonna burst....and may emit a fine spray!

    ....taco spray...???
    ...every day sends future to past...

  9. #9
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    Perhaps someone should pass this along to the EW fellas.

  10. #10
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
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    whys that? most khs guys ive known are nice. that would be like leavin yer dog in the bed of the truck while ya ran inside for chinese pick-up.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  11. #11
    Daniel the Dog
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    Very impressive lineup

    I was looking at their lineup in a mag the other day and was amazed. Great bike with a true 4-bar design at a great price point. I would like to ride one to see how it compares. Fuji also makes a 6" HL frameset.

    Jaybo

  12. #12
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    Jaybo,

    Buy one?

  13. #13
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    NBD in my book. The industry is full of bikes that are very similar looking to something else. Looking similar is a LOOOOOONG way from being the same for a variety of reasons.

    Still nothing wrong with similar designs. If KHS wants to go that route rather than distinguish themselves, fine. I find it hard to imagine anyone having trouble deciding between a KHS , Kona and Turner. They are simply different market targets. Anyone unable to justify the cost of a more expensive choice probably could not appreciate the differnece anyway. Besides not everyone can afford a top-dollar botique frame.

    As for ICT, who knows what drives TE's legal department? From what I've heard, there are several ICT infringements on the market now: I've heard the Chumba XC is infringing, some aspects of the DW link, someting in the Norco linup, and a bunch of stuff sold outside the US. Is TE going to persue all of them? The US marketers? Ignore all but the most obvious US designs? Or simply go about his merry little way.

    *Shrug*

    I'm more than happy with my Turners and like the TNT's pedaling and braking better anyway.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    NBD in my book. The industry is full of bikes that are very similar looking to something else. Looking similar is a LOOOOOONG way from being the same for a variety of reasons.

    Still nothing wrong with similar designs. If KHS wants to go that route rather than distinguish themselves, fine. I find it hard to imagine anyone having trouble deciding between a KHS , Kona and Turner. They are simply different market targets. Anyone unable to justify the cost of a more expensive choice probably could not appreciate the differnece anyway. Besides not everyone can afford a top-dollar botique frame.

    As for ICT, who knows what drives TE's legal department? From what I've heard, there are several ICT infringements on the market now: I've heard the Chumba XC is infringing, some aspects of the DW link, someting in the Norco linup, and a bunch of stuff sold outside the US. Is TE going to persue all of them? The US marketers? Ignore all but the most obvious US designs? Or simply go about his merry little way.

    *Shrug*

    I'm more than happy with my Turners and like the TNT's pedaling and braking better anyway.
    If this is the case, TE might have a lot of headaches coming his way if he's going to try and present infringement cases left and right, considering his design was copied to begin with. I know norco doesn't use the HL's in the US. As far as DW, I can see DW and IronHorse's parent company fighting tooth and nail on this one.

  15. #15
    Time is not a road.
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    LAST year it was a 5-Spot knock off...

    This year, it's an Enduro knock off, sans double crown fork.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk Chicken
    TE might have a lot of headaches coming his way if he's going to try and present infringement cases left and right,
    He holds the cards, he can pick his battles.
    "I am the decider" -GWB

    I [SIZE=2]sincerely [/SIZE]doubt TE would engage DW... the infringements would be very tough to argue given EW's vague patent and the obvious differences in designs. Since the DW's business is built on the DW link, it's all he's got and he'd have no choice but to fight to the bitter end. If DWLs were directly biting into EWB sales EW might show more interest. (I suspect this is a primary motivational point)

    Norco: They'd probably get the same deal DaVinci got. I would suspect if EW did go after anyone they would have to be sufficiently visually apparent, and substantially financially smaller.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-10-2006 at 10:16 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  17. #17
    PSI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    NBD As for ICT, who knows what drives TE's legal department
    from a target market pov it only makes sense for him to go after turner, even though turner managed to turn the table over on him with the success of tnt. go turner

  18. #18
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    Well TE hit Azonic and one or two others... and who knows who else. Agreements often include non-disclosures.

    Point is it'd have to be easy for the plaintif to argue, and expensive for the accused to defend... expensive enough to make survival by consession, the only reasonable option.

    Like you said DT got the last laugh...and we got a great tweak.
    (hell even Fo'Shizzle bought one...what's this world comming to?)

    More to the topic: I'd be more convinced of the similarity the day I see someone upgrade thier KHS with a Lyric, an I9 wheelset and a CCDB with a Ti spring.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-10-2006 at 10:33 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  19. #19
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    I know he went after Haro for Atlas infringement.

    Anyone remember when Marin and EW both came out with the 3VH frames at the same time and no one could justify buying the EW for hundreds more for the identical frame?

  20. #20
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    Reputation: Nagaredama's Avatar
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    I would argue the 5-Spot is a rip off of the pre 07 KHS AM/FR series.

    From 03 to 06 KHS used the standard faux bar set-up on their AM/FR series bikes. Then what do you know in 06 Turner comes out with TNT.

    Turner copied KHS!

    2005 AM2000



    2006 AM2000

  21. #21
    striker!
    Reputation: superstock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    NBD in my book. The industry is full of bikes that are very similar looking to something else. Looking similar is a LOOOOOONG way from being the same for a variety of reasons.
    Imitation is the highest form of flattery ... This looks much more elegant than some of their previous models.

    I'd be interested in seeing the weight differences and then of course the difference in pivot longevity compared to the spot.

    I heard from a KHS team rider that the patent protection period for the horst link had expired and thats why they added it to the '07 lineup. Just rumors here, I don't if anyone else has more info on this.


    S

  22. #22
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    I know S applied and got a superceding patent in the mid-late 90's for FSR. That's why I'm thinking the expiration is a couple years off.

  23. #23
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    I also heard the Horst patent is soon or past due. ICT is a whole other kettle of fish, and EWB's got a lot of marbles invested in it. I wonder if Spechy can/plans to renew their horst patent?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  24. #24
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    Isn't one of the FSR's supposed to infringe on the ICT geometry?

  25. #25
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    Yes but Specy and EWB have an agreement of financial convience... Specy can use ICT whenever it's convienent and EWB can't afford to do d!ck about it.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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