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  1. #1
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    5 Spot knock-off? - KHS 2000/1000

    KHS has a several page ad in the December issue of MBA showing off their 2007 line. They have gone to horst links on their higher end FS bikes. I was amazed at how similar the FM 2000/1000 resembles the 5 Spots sans TNT (2005 spot). 6" of travel but otherwise very much alike. They mention the horst linkage but no mention of ICT. How do they get away with that one?

    I did a side by of the geometry, 5 Spot vs. KHS AM, based on a large frame. Very very similar!
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  2. #2
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    that taco is gonna burst....and may emit a fine spray!

  3. #3
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    well it certainly is obvious where they found their inspiration from, I've liked them from that new add and i knew it looked like a mix of some bikes that have and are out
    look at the khs decal too

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  4. #4
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    What's wrong with Kona?
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  5. #5
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    So how come Tony hasn't sued KHS??? Too chiken to fight the big guys???
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmadaleno
    So how come Tony hasn't sued KHS??? Too chiken to fight the big guys???
    Either that or he just found out about from my post. You know he's lurking

  7. #7
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    khs has made a turner clone of 1 sort or another for alotta years. just never trusted the long term life myself. thats a interestin s/a / t/t combo. puts the b/bkt way up front and shortens the w/b up quite a bit ill bet. as for the tnt sticker, that frames gotta be within the ells envelope, doesnt it?
    No, I'm NOT back!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokermtb
    that taco is gonna burst....and may emit a fine spray!

    ....taco spray...???
    ...every day sends future to past...

  9. #9
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    Perhaps someone should pass this along to the EW fellas.

  10. #10
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    whys that? most khs guys ive known are nice. that would be like leavin yer dog in the bed of the truck while ya ran inside for chinese pick-up.
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  11. #11
    Daniel the Dog
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    Very impressive lineup

    I was looking at their lineup in a mag the other day and was amazed. Great bike with a true 4-bar design at a great price point. I would like to ride one to see how it compares. Fuji also makes a 6" HL frameset.

    Jaybo

  12. #12
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    Jaybo,

    Buy one?

  13. #13
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    NBD in my book. The industry is full of bikes that are very similar looking to something else. Looking similar is a LOOOOOONG way from being the same for a variety of reasons.

    Still nothing wrong with similar designs. If KHS wants to go that route rather than distinguish themselves, fine. I find it hard to imagine anyone having trouble deciding between a KHS , Kona and Turner. They are simply different market targets. Anyone unable to justify the cost of a more expensive choice probably could not appreciate the differnece anyway. Besides not everyone can afford a top-dollar botique frame.

    As for ICT, who knows what drives TE's legal department? From what I've heard, there are several ICT infringements on the market now: I've heard the Chumba XC is infringing, some aspects of the DW link, someting in the Norco linup, and a bunch of stuff sold outside the US. Is TE going to persue all of them? The US marketers? Ignore all but the most obvious US designs? Or simply go about his merry little way.

    *Shrug*

    I'm more than happy with my Turners and like the TNT's pedaling and braking better anyway.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    NBD in my book. The industry is full of bikes that are very similar looking to something else. Looking similar is a LOOOOOONG way from being the same for a variety of reasons.

    Still nothing wrong with similar designs. If KHS wants to go that route rather than distinguish themselves, fine. I find it hard to imagine anyone having trouble deciding between a KHS , Kona and Turner. They are simply different market targets. Anyone unable to justify the cost of a more expensive choice probably could not appreciate the differnece anyway. Besides not everyone can afford a top-dollar botique frame.

    As for ICT, who knows what drives TE's legal department? From what I've heard, there are several ICT infringements on the market now: I've heard the Chumba XC is infringing, some aspects of the DW link, someting in the Norco linup, and a bunch of stuff sold outside the US. Is TE going to persue all of them? The US marketers? Ignore all but the most obvious US designs? Or simply go about his merry little way.

    *Shrug*

    I'm more than happy with my Turners and like the TNT's pedaling and braking better anyway.
    If this is the case, TE might have a lot of headaches coming his way if he's going to try and present infringement cases left and right, considering his design was copied to begin with. I know norco doesn't use the HL's in the US. As far as DW, I can see DW and IronHorse's parent company fighting tooth and nail on this one.

  15. #15
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    LAST year it was a 5-Spot knock off...

    This year, it's an Enduro knock off, sans double crown fork.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk Chicken
    TE might have a lot of headaches coming his way if he's going to try and present infringement cases left and right,
    He holds the cards, he can pick his battles.
    "I am the decider" -GWB

    I sincerely doubt TE would engage DW... the infringements would be very tough to argue given EW's vague patent and the obvious differences in designs. Since the DW's business is built on the DW link, it's all he's got and he'd have no choice but to fight to the bitter end. If DWLs were directly biting into EWB sales EW might show more interest. (I suspect this is a primary motivational point)

    Norco: They'd probably get the same deal DaVinci got. I would suspect if EW did go after anyone they would have to be sufficiently visually apparent, and substantially financially smaller.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-10-2006 at 11:16 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    NBD As for ICT, who knows what drives TE's legal department
    from a target market pov it only makes sense for him to go after turner, even though turner managed to turn the table over on him with the success of tnt. go turner

  18. #18
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    Well TE hit Azonic and one or two others... and who knows who else. Agreements often include non-disclosures.

    Point is it'd have to be easy for the plaintif to argue, and expensive for the accused to defend... expensive enough to make survival by consession, the only reasonable option.

    Like you said DT got the last laugh...and we got a great tweak.
    (hell even Fo'Shizzle bought one...what's this world comming to?)

    More to the topic: I'd be more convinced of the similarity the day I see someone upgrade thier KHS with a Lyric, an I9 wheelset and a CCDB with a Ti spring.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-10-2006 at 11:33 AM.
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  19. #19
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    I know he went after Haro for Atlas infringement.

    Anyone remember when Marin and EW both came out with the 3VH frames at the same time and no one could justify buying the EW for hundreds more for the identical frame?

  20. #20
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    I would argue the 5-Spot is a rip off of the pre 07 KHS AM/FR series.

    From 03 to 06 KHS used the standard faux bar set-up on their AM/FR series bikes. Then what do you know in 06 Turner comes out with TNT.

    Turner copied KHS!

    2005 AM2000



    2006 AM2000

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    NBD in my book. The industry is full of bikes that are very similar looking to something else. Looking similar is a LOOOOOONG way from being the same for a variety of reasons.
    Imitation is the highest form of flattery ... This looks much more elegant than some of their previous models.

    I'd be interested in seeing the weight differences and then of course the difference in pivot longevity compared to the spot.

    I heard from a KHS team rider that the patent protection period for the horst link had expired and thats why they added it to the '07 lineup. Just rumors here, I don't if anyone else has more info on this.


    S

  22. #22
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    I know S applied and got a superceding patent in the mid-late 90's for FSR. That's why I'm thinking the expiration is a couple years off.

  23. #23
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    I also heard the Horst patent is soon or past due. ICT is a whole other kettle of fish, and EWB's got a lot of marbles invested in it. I wonder if Spechy can/plans to renew their horst patent?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  24. #24
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    Isn't one of the FSR's supposed to infringe on the ICT geometry?

  25. #25
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    Yes but Specy and EWB have an agreement of financial convience... Specy can use ICT whenever it's convienent and EWB can't afford to do d!ck about it.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I know norco doesn't use the HL's in the US.
    Not true. Norco does sell their bikes with the HL in the US (at least at one of my lbs). It's Devinci that has different pivot placement for the US.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  27. #27
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    My mistake. It'a actually not too hard to mistake them, considering the websites of most canadian manufacturers flat out suck.

  28. #28
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    I would if I was on a budget

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Jaybo,

    Buy one?
    Great lineup of bikes! I'm a bike snob at some level when it comes to boutique bikes. It is funny though because a while back I rode a Giant Reign and was floored by the way that bikes seperates you from bumps. Great design! The Pacific Rim bikes are really well put together. I even saw a freakin' Fuji HL all mountain bike that really looked great.

    Jaybo

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Anyone unable to justify the cost of a more expensive choice probably could not appreciate the differnece anyway.
    Zilla....you're normally spot on with your posts, but this particular line caught my eye and, sir, I'm gonna need you to please put the kool aid down and slowly back away from the punch bowl. Ok, seriously though.....I'll offer a different perspective just to play the devil's advocate / fly in the ointment.....mainly because that comment says to me either A. a person doesn't know enough to even appreciate a boutique bike or B. they can't afford one so they settle for something less.

    Counterpoint:
    A lot of folks that have the dough might prefer to spend it on riding their bikes in great spots vs. dropping a ton of coin on a bike to keep up with the Faux's of this world (nice wheels, btw, Faux!!). In the past 2 years, I've had 2 SW Utah trips, 60-70 days of riding in BC (Whistler, Kamloops, Chilcotins, Penticton, Merritt, Shore, etc.) and 9 days in the Portes du Soleil region of France / Switzerland. That's on top of riding locally in WA 2x per week. Dropping 5g's on a blinged out rig is fine and and I'd be able to slide it past the wife with some cajoling (backrubs for life), but instead I prefer to spend ~$3k on a well built bike and use the other $2k on kick ass bike trips.

    To each their own, but saying anyone that isn't willing to drop $2 g's on a boutique frame is less likely to appreciate the difference in 'ride quality' is getting pretty full of themself and it somewhat speaks to the insulated world that is the turner forum. I'm assuming Homers ride with folks on other brand bikes.......right?? Ok, that's a big stretch, but most of you at least know someone that has a different brand bike, right? Ok, as you can see, this example is getting me nowhere.

    Don't get me wrong.....this place is chock full of characters and always has great insight / product knowledge, crazy banter, ridonkulous photoshop jobs, and other stuff that makes this forum tops in my mind. However, saying someone doesn't ride a turner because they don't have the skills / knowledge to understand how much better it rides is laughable. Look at the Sanchez boys....the dude that usually has the most style (while not wearing a speedo) is D-Wang on his Enduro. Same goes for Aqua's pics of his buddy Maggro (not sure what bike he's riding this week!). That doesn't guarantee they've got solid all-around chops on the bike, but it's a good indicator.

    As always, my motto (blasphemy here, I know).....it's the horses, not the chariot.

    EB
    Last edited by ebxtreme; 11-10-2006 at 04:28 PM.

  30. #30
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    It looks like the KHS does not infringe the ICT by the skin of a teeth.

    The IC is not located in front of the front axle.... or it could be, but I can't tell from certain from the picture.

    BUt from the pic, it seems that is Spesh who could be going after KHS (it falls in the FRS category, I think).

    Anyways, who cares? When you weight in CS, Warranty, craftsmanship and all is said and done, a Turner will be considered by a sector of the market very different than the KHS.

    There's a difference in STA between the Spot and the KHS and that will play a BIG role in how they feel. Geometry is one of the most important features of why a Turner rides the way it rides (and fits).
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Zilla....you're normally spot on with your posts, but this particular line caught my eye and, sir, I'm gonna need you to please put the kool aid down and slowly back away from the punch bowl.
    Naaa, you're reading into it way too much. That and, a hit&run post between things at work can make for a poor choice of words on my part.

    I was not trying to say they can't appreciate the difference, that was more towards the trolls who often come in here say it's a waste of money to spend any more than the least expensive look alike. The KHS, Kona and Turner represent three different tiers of very similar products. Of course there's more than one reason to spend less(or more) and a lot of people would think your $3k budget bike is excessively priced as well. BTW it's a helluva lot easier to for some of us to pass off an expensive bike on our SIGOTHs than vacation w/o the family to who knows where doing who knows what.

    I'm not sayin anyone doesn't know enough to appreciate a botique bike That WOULD BE FOS!!! ...what I am saying is the difference in cost can easily make the difference in products unimportant to many people for a variety of reasons including the one you bring up.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 11-10-2006 at 06:27 PM.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Naaa, you're reading into it way too much. I was not trying to say they can't appreciate the difference, that was more towards the trolls who often come in here say it's a waste of money to spend any more than the least expensive look alike. The KHS, Kona and Turner represent three different tiers of very similar products. Of course there's more than one reason to spend less(or more) and a lot of people would think your $3k budget bike is excessively priced as well. BTW it's a helluva lot easier to for some of us to pass off an expensive bike on our SIGOTHs than vacation w/o the family to who knows where doing who knows what.

    I'm not sayin anyone doesn't know enough to appreciate a botique bike That WOULD BE FOS!!! ...what I am saying is the difference in cost can easily make the difference unimportant to many people for a variety of reasons including the one you bring up.

    Noway man, KHS is for gay's.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Naaa, you're reading into it way too much. That and, a hit&run post between things at work can make for a poor choice of words on my part.
    Yeah, fair enough, BZ....I know how that goes. You're right....I was reading a bit too much into that statement. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive due to my non-boutique bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    BTW it's a helluva lot easier to for some of us to pass off an expensive bike on our SIGOTHs than vacation w/o the family to who knows where doing who knows what.
    Yeah, I've got buddies in the same boat so I understand. That's why I got me one of those gals that likes to bike as much as I do....which, ironically, also means I get to spend less on my bikes because we're also outfitting her FR, XC and road bikes all the time. Now, she's talking about getting an '07 Slayer for spring. I hope that doesn't cut into my Vegas /Bootleg Canyon or Nelson, BC trip funds!!

    EB
    Last edited by ebxtreme; 11-10-2006 at 07:14 PM.

  34. #34
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    For what it's worth, I've got a 2004 FR 2000. This is one of the older, faux bar designs. I paid a whopping $100 for the frame, with a Manitou Swinger 4-Way air, so I figured, what the hell? If it totally blows, I'm only out $100. So here's what I've got to say about them.
    1. F***ing heavy.
    2. Nukeproof
    3. The leverage ratio is too high. When set at 6", it has a 3:1 leverage ratio, which overwhelms the bottoming adjustment on the shock. Even when cranked all the way in, it still bottoms easier than I would like. Of course, this isn't the stock shock either. Perhaps the Romic that it came with is better in this regard.
    4. Holy brake jack

    It's a fun bike to ride, but certainly not the best out there. Since they're so cheap, I'd consider them to be a good pick for someone looking for a tough AM rig on a budget.

  35. #35
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    sh1t, for $100 I'd buy one just to beat the sh1t out of it. I would take it to the concrete jungle and see how many 5' drops to flat it takes to crack a KHS. You know, like, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie roll pop.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unknownrash
    sh1t, for $100 I'd buy one just to beat the sh1t out of it. I would take it to the concrete jungle and see how many 5' drops to flat it takes to crack a KHS. You know, like, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie roll pop.
    yea but i just looked on ebay and the cheapest one was 399... and it just ended
    would be fun though even though i think a lot of other parts would break before that frame from concrete dtf's
    Kona Coiler

  37. #37
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    Ahh - I just got a TNT.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Well TE hit Azonic and one or two others... and who knows who else. Agreements often include non-disclosures.

    Point is it'd have to be easy for the plaintif to argue, and expensive for the accused to defend... expensive enough to make survival by consession, the only reasonable option.

    Like you said DT got the last laugh...and we got a great tweak.
    (hell even Fo'Shizzle bought one...what's this world comming to?)

    More to the topic: I'd be more convinced of the similarity the day I see someone upgrade thier KHS with a Lyric, an I9 wheelset and a CCDB with a Ti spring.
    Homers,
    Even me. I remember when I smashed the TNT design when the change happened. I just got a TNT Flux frame. I do have my HL spot as well. After DT accepted the production defect on one the RFX frames (remember that thread?) I went ahead and bought another turner frame.

    Turners are great, period.

    BTW, I test rode a EW Truth the other day - What the hell was that? It does not come even close to the flux...
    Sit and spin my ass...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    I would argue the 5-Spot is a rip off of the pre 07 KHS AM/FR series.

    From 03 to 06 KHS used the standard faux bar set-up on their AM/FR series bikes. Then what do you know in 06 Turner comes out with TNT.

    Turner copied KHS!
    How dare you insult Turner like that! Everyone here has accepted that they are now riding over priced Konas.

  39. #39
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    I left my turner in the garage today, and rode my Surly 1x1 today! I even went over a cool jump! I had fun riding bike~~! I did stop by my local KHS dealer, and wanted to check out his new demo Flux he just built up.....I think it's pretty cool he bracketed himself with Turner and it's neo-clone KHS so everyone can be a Homer, or price point Homer....

    you guys really have to get outside.....
    Last edited by jokermtb; 11-11-2006 at 08:20 PM.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtails Are Better
    3. The leverage ratio is too high. When set at 6", it has a 3:1 leverage ratio, which overwhelms the bottoming adjustment on the shock. Even when cranked all the way in, it still bottoms easier than I would like. Of course, this isn't the stock shock either. Perhaps the Romic that it came with is better in this regard.
    4. Holy brake jack
    3:1 just like the RFX

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokermtb
    .....I think it's pretty cool he bracketed himself with Turner and it's neo-clone KHS so everyone can be a Homer, or price point Homer....
    They should call it the P.P.H. . . .

  42. #42
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    Interesting that KHS has gone Horst and Turner has gone faux.

    KHS are nice bikes. I rode the heck out of my 304 single pivot $179 Jenson special. Now I am building up a Turner Burner. I'll see what all this Turner hooplah is about.
    I'd rather be riding my bike...

  43. #43
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    The hooplah?

    Quote Originally Posted by meat tooth paste
    Interesting that KHS has gone Horst and Turner has gone faux.

    KHS are nice bikes. I rode the heck out of my 304 single pivot $179 Jenson special. Now I am building up a Turner Burner. I'll see what all this Turner hooplah is about.
    The hooplah is about:

    1. the cool-aid
    2. What fork are you going to put in on your future spot after you outgrow the Burner
    3. DHXc vs DHXa vs RP3 vs RP3 push vs RP23 vs RP23 pushed vs RP3 w/ DHX canister vs ..........
    4. 4" XR rockers
    5. There is more hooplah than you care to hear about.
    Sit and spin my ass...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    The hooplah is about:
    3. DHXc vs DHXa vs RP3 vs RP3 push vs RP23 vs RP23 pushed vs RP3 w/ DHX canister vs ..........
    4. 4" XR rockers
    Oh so true. It's already begun...
    I bought a set of XR rockers and just ordered an RP3 to replace the stock Swinger3.

    Edit: And I am going to run a Talas fork, so it's already 5spot ready
    I'd rather be riding my bike...

  45. #45
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    Patents

    Patents in the US are good for 17 years. So simply add 17 years from when it was filed and you'll know when everybody else can legally and without a licensing agreement do Horst and ICT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SportDerek
    Patents in the US are good for 17 years. So simply add 17 years from when it was filed and you'll know when everybody else can legally and without a licensing agreement do Horst and ICT.
    Did this change? I thought it was 20 years?

  47. #47
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    TNT Patent

    Quote Originally Posted by dpdsurf
    Did this change? I thought it was 20 years?
    Who cares. DT will become an ultrazillionaire when he patents "TNT".
    Sit and spin my ass...

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