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  1. #1
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    5-spot braking asset

    ]It appears that "Spotty" has a tendency to ride "high" in the suspension under braking. The suspension is active, that is not the problem, but there is a clear change of asset that takes place under even moderate braking. This puts a lot of weight to the front, and "pushes" you against the handlebar more than on other bikes I owned.

    It is probably a set up fine-tunig problem: rising the handlebar, decreasing the shock preload, moving back helps, but I wonder what is other people experience in this department and if you have any other asset suggestions.

    I am using 100/15 stem, 1.25" of headset spacers + 2" rise handlebar (medium frame, 400 spring).
    Last edited by Davide; 04-27-2004 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2
    eat my pantaloons
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    huh?

    I think that's more of a function of your fork, shock, spring rates, how you brake and the laws of physics that the design of the bike. To the extent that it happens more on the 5-spot than other similar designs? Well, I just don't know about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    ]It appears that "Spotty" has a tendency to ride "high" in the suspension under braking. The suspension is active, that is not the problem, but there is a clear change of asset that takes place under even moderate braking. This puts a lot of weight to the front, and "pushes" you against the handlebar more than on other bikes I owned.

    It is probably a set up fine-tunig problem: rising the handlebar, decreasing the shock preload, moving back helps, but I wonder what is other people experience in this department and if you have any other asset suggestions.

    I am using 100/15 stem, 1.25" of headset spacers + 2" rise handlebar (medium frame, 400 spring).

  3. #3
    E~Pluribus Unum
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    The fork & rear shock definitely have an influence on suspension characteristics under braking.

    I just went from a ported Vanilla RC to a pro-pedal AVA RL. Rear suspension characteristics are night and day.

  4. #4
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    Paul J, what do you mean by "ported" RC? Also, "night and day," would like to hear about differences. Thanks

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennasdad
    Paul J, what do you mean by "ported" RC? Also, "night and day," would like to hear about differences. Thanks
    I think Paul went from the standard Vanilla RC (coil rear shock) to a stable platform air shock (propedal AVA). I'm curious about the "night and day difference", too.

    I wouldn't expect to experience a difference under braking unless the propedal can stop shock movement in both directions. If it can....and it keeps the rear from extending past sag, then that's pretty cool.

    Paul......Please explain the night and day difference...in detail.


    Thanks.

  6. #6
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    jennasdad/WarrGuru


    It's a custom Vanilla RC. The shaft and resi have been ported as well as all shims removed to allow greater oil flow.

    As for night & day. The RC would wollow through it's travel, squat terrible on rock/tech climbs and top out on steep braking decents.

    Even a standard RC's damping sucks. This shock basically had no damping.

    The p/p ava barely squats and, moves only when a bump overides the threshold, and stays in mid stroke on steep braking decents.

    I'm running a Talas on the front which is notorious for blowing threw it's linear travel while braking. My h/a isn't even close to 69 degrees on steep decents. An Spv would control the dive and result in a slacker h/a-imo.

    I threw a friends Minute ( Min- Noot) on the front. The 5er with the ava p/p and the min-noot up front completely changed the bikes behavior. vs. the talas & RC. The bike stayed more level on flat and decending terrain resulting in much more controlable and predictable handling bike.

    Hope that helps.

  7. #7
    Toby Wong?
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    who did your custom porting on the RC?

  8. #8
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    Well, you did take all the guts out of the damper... :-)

    have you thrown a propedal coil on there yet? curious how it would feel. How do you rate the Romic vs all the shocks you have tried?

    -Sp


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul J
    jennasdad/WarrGuru


    It's a custom Vanilla RC. The shaft and resi have been ported as well as all shims removed to allow greater oil flow.

    As for night & day. The RC would wollow through it's travel, squat terrible on rock/tech climbs and top out on steep braking decents.

    Even a standard RC's damping sucks. This shock basically had no damping.


    Hope that helps.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinglePivot
    have you thrown a propedal coil on there yet? curious how it would feel. How do you rate the Romic vs all the shocks you have tried?

    -Sp

    Yes, I have a Pro-Pedal RC as well. Actually it's a "pro-pedal lite". The threshold isn't as harsh as the stock p/p. It climbs stairs nearly as well as the p/p ava, and of course downhill it eats up the air shock.

    I had a Romic on my truth and didn't care for it at all. But I've ridden several romics on other peoples rides ie: Truth, Id, Dare, XCE, and some felt really good. I wouldn't be crying if I had a new one w/ a ti spring.

  10. #10
    Roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul J
    Yes, I have a Pro-Pedal RC as well. Actually it's a "pro-pedal lite". The threshold isn't as harsh as the stock p/p. It climbs stairs nearly as well as the p/p ava, and of course downhill it eats up the air shock.

    I had a Romic on my truth and didn't care for it at all. But I've ridden several romics on other peoples rides ie: Truth, Id, Dare, XCE, and some felt really good. I wouldn't be crying if I had a new one w/ a ti spring.
    The Pro-Pedal RC - does Fox make such a beast or have you had your original RC "Push-ified"?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    The Pro-Pedal RC - does Fox make such a beast or have you had your original RC "Push-ified"?
    They do.

    http://foxracingshox.com/website/Pro...bCategoryId=23

  12. #12
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    Anti-dive Shock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul J
    jennasdad/WarrGuru


    It's a custom Vanilla RC. The shaft and resi have been ported as well as all shims removed to allow greater oil flow.


    I'm running a Talas on the front which is notorious for blowing threw it's linear travel while braking. My h/a isn't even close to 69 degrees on steep decents. An Spv would control the dive and result in a slacker h/a-imo.

    I threw a friends Minute ( Min- Noot) on the front. The 5er with the ava p/p and the min-noot up front completely changed the bikes behavior. vs. the talas & RC. The bike stayed more level on flat and decending terrain resulting in much more controlable and predictable handling bike.

    Hope that helps.
    Interesting to hear confirmed that the Minute SPV works as an "anti-dive". I was thinking to get a Vanilla R Fork and then add the new Stratos inertia-valve: this should provide (?) some anti-dive, and your observation with the Minute would suggest that this might work.

    What would be very nice is to have an anti-dive shock. Could some sort of inertia-valve do this? or maybe one just needs a two-stages rebound control that decreases rebound more aggressively from the sag-potin to full-extended, so that the shock does not extend as much under breaking. Has this been done?

    PS As I mentioned in the original post the "dive" under braking is pronounced, enough to put strain on my hands that has never happened in the past. One cheap way to reduce it is of course to slide back, and I am considering an even shorter stem (90 insted of 100) + moving the seat back accodingly to make the situation better

  13. #13
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    Hey Mrmoots, did you replace another fork that was on the bike with the Minute or did the bike start life that way? Curious about comparison on same bike. Thanks

  14. #14
    DGC
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    comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by jennasdad
    Hey Mrmoots, did you replace another fork that was on the bike with the Minute or did the bike start life that way? Curious about comparison on same bike. Thanks
    I'll add some info here.
    I have had my 5 Spot since May 2003 and since that time I have had the Romic/Ti spring with the Fox Vanilla RLC for a long time as my set up. I had been doing a bunch of different mods to the Fox fork, shims, pistons, amoung other things etc. Never could get the fork to stop diving or wallowing enough to be happy. Then I finally changed to the Manitou Swinger 3 way air in the rear, this shock helped me make the decision much easier to dump the Fox fork and go with the Manitou Minute 1:00. With the Romic in the rear and the Minute up front, I found myself running a bunch of compression on the Romic to match the Minute, then I tried the Swinger 3 way air. I felt the performance was as good or better than the Romic with the compression dialed in 4-5 clicks, and weighed 1/2 pound less, so i decided to try it. With SPV front and rear, the ride is much more balanced and well matched. There is more trail feedback, you can feel more of whats going on under you, but the bike rides more balanced and upright, gives a more stable ride, and as a result gives more confidence on decents, and no more wallow or front end dive. If your riding is full of big rocks, steps, etc like ours is, Manitou SPV valving is a huge help. I still like the Romic a lot, though I have not had it on the bike in 2 months.

    As for rear end extension from the 5 Spot under braking. By design I believe there is a small amount of extension there, very small amount. If you try hard enough you might be able to feel it, but its hard to feel or guage it unless your doing something out of the ordinary or purposely trying to feel it like only rear braking and too soft a spring rate. I have always used no less than 50/50 force on the levers for front vs. rear braking, most often I go with much more braking in the front. I feel more control this way, and am able to go faster without trashing the trail dragging the rear brake. As someone above already said, spring rate (too soft), damping set up, stem bar set up, and especially how a rider uses the brakes affects how a bike responds. I obviously feel no rear end extension because I dont rely on so much rear brake to feel it, even when I purposely tried to feel it, it was nearly un-detectable. The more I ride the front brake, the more I appreciate the Manitou Minutes' ability to stand up and not dive.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    I'll add some info here.
    I have had my 5 Spot since May 2003 and since that time I have had the Romic/Ti spring with the Fox Vanilla RLC for a long time as my set up. I had been doing a bunch of different mods to the Fox fork, shims, pistons, amoung other things etc. Never could get the fork to stop diving or wallowing enough to be happy. Then I finally changed to the Manitou Swinger 3 way air in the rear, this shock helped me make the decision much easier to dump the Fox fork and go with the Manitou Minute 1:00. With the Romic in the rear and the Minute up front, I found myself running a bunch of compression on the Romic to match the Minute, then I tried the Swinger 3 way air. I felt the performance was as good or better than the Romic with the compression dialed in 4-5 clicks, and weighed 1/2 pound less, so i decided to try it. With SPV front and rear, the ride is much more balanced and well matched. There is more trail feedback, you can feel more of whats going on under you, but the bike rides more balanced and upright, gives a more stable ride, and as a result gives more confidence on decents, and no more wallow or front end dive. If your riding is full of big rocks, steps, etc like ours is, Manitou SPV valving is a huge help. I still like the Romic a lot, though I have not had it on the bike in 2 months.

    As for rear end extension from the 5 Spot under braking. By design I believe there is a small amount of extension there, very small amount. If you try hard enough you might be able to feel it, but its hard to feel or guage it unless your doing something out of the ordinary or purposely trying to feel it like only rear braking and too soft a spring rate. I have always used no less than 50/50 force on the levers for front vs. rear braking, most often I go with much more braking in the front. I feel more control this way, and am able to go faster without trashing the trail dragging the rear brake. As someone above already said, spring rate (too soft), damping set up, stem bar set up, and especially how a rider uses the brakes affects how a bike responds. I obviously feel no rear end extension because I dont rely on so much rear brake to feel it, even when I purposely tried to feel it, it was nearly un-detectable. The more I ride the front brake, the more I appreciate the Manitou Minutes' ability to stand up and not dive.
    Thank you for the useful information about the Minute 1, I am very tempted to get one but have you heard anything about a Push industry mod for the Vanilla fork? The Stratos inertia-valve cartridge that will also be developed for the vanilla fork might also help?

    As far as the rear end extension, I also brake mostly witht the front and I am afraid that most of my current problems with dive are associated with the fork I transfered from my previous bike: the steerer tube turned out to be too short for the 5-spot, I think that if I could add 1" the problem might disappear ... grrrrr ... I guess I need to but a new fork just to test this hypothesis!!
    Last edited by Davide; 04-29-2004 at 11:50 PM.

  16. #16
    DGC
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    last i heard

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Thank you for the useful information about the Minute 1, I am very tempted to get one but have you heard anything about a Push industry mod for the Vanilla fork? The Stratos inertia-valve cartridge that will also be developed for the vanilla fork might also help?

    As far as the rear end extension, I also brake mostly witht the front and I am afraid that most of my current problems with dive are associated with the fork I transfered from my previous bike: the steerer tube turned out to be too short for the 5-spot, I think that if I could add 1" the problem might disappear ... grrrrr ... I guess I need to but a new fork just to test this hypothesis!!

    Last I heard was that Push was in the middle of testing out the stuff they were makiing for the Fox forks, that was at least a month ago, so i dont know any more than that. And I dont know anything about the Stratos thing. I was never a fan of their forks or shocks so I have not even looked into it, yet.

  17. #17
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    Stratos ID

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Last I heard was that Push was in the middle of testing out the stuff they were makiing for the Fox forks, that was at least a month ago, so i dont know any more than that. And I dont know anything about the Stratos thing. I was never a fan of their forks or shocks so I have not even looked into it, yet.
    The carrtidge is depicted on the web page (www.stratosusa.com) and it looks like it will take the place of the rebound cartidge and have an external adjustment ... I never used a Stratos fork but I did have a Stratos Air/Coil with remote comporession adjuster on my GT that worked nicely ... time to give them a call ...

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