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  1. #1
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    2010 RFX release date?

    Have there been any updates recently on when it is coming out? Thanks.

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    I'm guessing it might be a 2011 RFX.

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    There is no date planned. I really doubt there are many people willing to ride a 7.5lb frame and pay $2900 for it, regardles of where it is made and who has a job because of it. The values out of Taiwan and China are too aluring for those wanting a big travel bike. Based on the price of the DHR, and the minimum first run we have to run, Sorry, but the dozens of shops that have asked about availability since the showing of the proto last fall mostly want, wait for it...
    1. For the caller of course, IF the person on the phone is pressed they squeemishly say maybe they would take one for the floor. Unless we either drop the price notably by going overseas or sell these things 'direct' and cut out the shops there is a tiny market for a bike like this. Remember the Highline, I do.

    DT

  4. #4
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    For what it's worth I'll buy one when and if it is available.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    There is no date planned. I really doubt there are many people willing to ride a 7.5lb frame and pay $2900 for it, regardles of where it is made and who has a job because of it. The values out of Taiwan and China are too aluring for those wanting a big travel bike. Based on the price of the DHR, and the minimum first run we have to run, Sorry, but the dozens of shops that have asked about availability since the showing of the proto last fall mostly want, wait for it...
    1. For the caller of course, IF the person on the phone is pressed they squeemishly say maybe they would take one for the floor. Unless we either drop the price notably by going overseas or sell these things 'direct' and cut out the shops there is a tiny market for a bike like this. Remember the Highline, I do.

    DT
    What??? You are scrapping the RFX? With all due respect I think you are underestimating the number of people who are riding placeholder bikes while waiting for this.

    As for the value proposition, I would take a $2900 RFX over a $2700 Scratch in a hot second. Also, I thought you were looking into offering completes as a way to make them more competitive.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
    - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
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    Oh well, it was a fun dream while it lasted.

  7. #7
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    We'll always have the Spot, kid.

  8. #8
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    It's a sad day.

  9. #9
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    What?... I thought the long travel, do it all was the "it" bike right now. (well maybe $2900 is a little steep) but still tons of people would have still bought it. The longer the wait the more they're just going to buy up the scratch, uzzi, sx t, even Knolly DT(talk about an expensive frame). Oh well, the thought of the 2010 RFX was fun while it lasted.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    There is no date planned. I really doubt there are many people willing to ride a 7.5lb frame and pay $2900 for it, regardles of where it is made and who has a job because of it. The values out of Taiwan and China are too aluring for those wanting a big travel bike. Based on the price of the DHR, and the minimum first run we have to run, Sorry, but the dozens of shops that have asked about availability since the showing of the proto last fall mostly want, wait for it...
    1. For the caller of course, IF the person on the phone is pressed they squeemishly say maybe they would take one for the floor. Unless we either drop the price notably by going overseas or sell these things 'direct' and cut out the shops there is a tiny market for a bike like this. Remember the Highline, I do.

    DT
    Wow, nothing like getting an answer direct from the source!

    How many frames would you need to sell in order to consider a run?

    Is there any way you'd consider changing the parameters to 8.5 pounds and $2200 retail? Would that make a difference?

    I do understand there are not many frames in this category, so there must be a reason for it. Knolly Delirium?

  11. #11
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    May just be this crappy economy, no mater what people say it's awful and a bike like the RFX that could have been subsidized by the sales of the rest of the line may be feeling the pinch. Small businesses could use a little Stimulus about now.

  12. #12
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    Sad Day

    Sad day for Turner and the riders waiting on this bike. Times must be tough. Hopefully Turner can weather the storm are still be around in two years. Good luck guys.

    p.s. $2900 for an AM frame is just rediculous

  13. #13
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    mondays suck, total weaksausage...
    would have been a ripper!

  14. #14
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    Did the DHR sell better than the RFX historically?

  15. #15
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    Disappointing to hear . . .

  16. #16
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    Well I'm sorta suprised at this announcement. While I may have bought one of my bikes as a placeholder, it's turned into my favorite and probably isn't all that different from what the RFX would have been. The RFX was going to be my next bike, but it's really taking a long time. Now this... Well Mr. Turner, I will say you were very kind at 'the big show' and hopefully if you do decide to make some, mine will be an XL and you remember that I begged you to make it with a full 1.5 headtube... A 160mm 'six spot' might be fun too.

    "It looks flexy"

  17. #17
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    I call a bluff !

    I call he's bluffing. People have been going nuts waiting for this bike. The big thing that I have learned from these boards is the rabid loyalty of the Turner clan. I have no doubt that they would sell. I've never owned a Turner but was keeping my eye out for the RFX when it did come out. If the bike is that good then I would pay for it!

    Chris

  18. #18
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    Bummer, DT. But your argument makes way too much sense. And I was starting to think about what to replace my Y2K vintage RFX with for lift and shuttle service riding. Hmmmm... May have to look at the Firebird now.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    A 160mm 'six spot' might be fun too.
    I'd be happy even with a 140mm AM version of a Spot, as long is it is slackened out to 66/67 head angle and lower BB height.

  20. #20
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    well it's good for me as my highline keeps it's dollar for a good while longer!
    Dt will do a bike when he and the market are ready and viable, have you learned nothing from his posts over the years?

  21. #21
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    Glad I picked up a HL before that bomb dropped. Gonna be some seriously bunched up panties over this...

  22. #22
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    Maybe it's time to go aboard?

  23. #23
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    hey whoda, if the panties look like this then i aint bothered!

  24. #24
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    ah fuggin A !

    I knew I should have kept my RFX











    j/k I call bluff too

  25. #25
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    Honestly, I am guessing this is the reason that Ventana is liquidating the 6" Terremoto and 7" Bruja...just not enough market to sustain them at 2200 a piece.

  26. #26
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    DT - do what you need to do to survive the recession. I'd rather have turner bikes still around when the smoke clears than a new RFX now.

    Nice girly pic above BTW.

  27. #27
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    Its a tough market for everyone, I can see the logic. From what I hear speshy jumped the shark on 29er demand and is missing a ton of revenue dollars b/c they blew out their new FSR too quickly. If that's true and Turner has capacity to deliver Sultans to the market as it demands, and the DHR too, then thats where you focus and the RFX becomes back burner.

    The Delirium and RFX question is a good one, FWIW I don't see them as 1:1 comparable, the Highline is probably the closest Turner to a Delirium. Although Noel has shaved a pound off the new Delirium and supposedly improved climbing geo. I have a 2009 Delirium T I'll upgrade next season to a 2011 Delirium, but I do still want to get an RFX to replace my Tracer VP...

    or it could just be as suspension designs and frame building advance a 5.5'' frame with the right components and build (1.5 or tapered ht) will do what a 6.7'' used to and that's what the market is telling the bike makers?

    EDIT: I think the speshy FSR not being available is going to be a boon to the Tracer 29er as well as the sultan.

  28. #28
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    I guess the change of plans is to build a RFX 29er since we all know the 29ers rule. A 26 wheel RFX would be a waste of time anyway. Save the RD dollars for another 29er. It will be better in the long run.

  29. #29
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    Tragic...

    2010 RFX release date?-bomb-safe.jpg

  30. #30
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    .......and life will go on without the RFX. There are plenty of other great bikes out there to own and enjoy. And maybe DT can get an extra hour of sleep at night too, resting assured that the models he is producing are of a high quality.
    ****

  31. #31
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    I hear 'cross bikes are cheap to make.

    Brock...
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  32. #32
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  33. #33
    Knomer
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    Dave,

    Just make some longer links for the Spot and shut these tens of people up.


    CC: Darren Murphy
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Dave,

    Just make some longer links for the Spot and shut these tens of people up.


    CC: Darren Murphy

    that could cause a "situation"

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by smaxor
    Nice!

    I never understood a 7.5lb RFX designed to shred

  36. #36
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    Well I'm going to speculate that there will not be a hole left in the line up for very long. I mean you don't want to put a single crown 180mm fork on a Spot or DHR would you?
    I'm assuming here DHR wants 200mm+.

    I'm with B-Mac though; nice girl! No, I mean DT do what you need to do to survive. I wonder if you would ever consider a model run based off older tooling? (Highline) (2008 RFX)

    Cheers!

  37. #37
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    I could see this coming.

    The new dw spot is probably 95% capable of doing anything the old rfx could when you throw a 160mm fork on it (or so I'm led to believe from homer reviews), which throws the already niche'd new rfx into an even more niche category.

    Guess I'm glad my 08 RFX and Highlines are both suddenly collectors items.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Darren Murphy,

    Just make some longer links for the Spot and shut these tens of people up.
    Fixed it for you Dusty. Darren mentioned this to me last year; I guess it's like a lot of things he mentions, and don't come to fruition. Maybe know he'll have more incentive.
    ****

  39. #39
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    This is too bad! I was waiting for the new RFX to replace my '06. I guess my money will be going the Knolly way instead!

    Buzz

  40. #40
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    Well now I'm regretting selling my '06 RFX but my placeholder Uzzi VP is really growing on me so it's not a total loss. I have to say though, if the market price would have been anywhere close to $2900 that would be a tough pill to swallow.

  41. #41
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    Damn!

    I know I really hounded DT about this new bike and the fact that it would have fit perfectly into what and where I ride. I ended up buying a used frame and all new parts hoping that I could swap them over to the new RFX!

    I know that this is a tough call but I ask that if at all possible to please keep the Turner line "Made in the USA"!!! I am not going to go into politics or quality debates, but it is something that I do love about Turner Bikes.

    This is a premium product and as such it demands a premium price, as much as I would love to have a sub $2000 frame, the same way I would love to have a sub $50,000 sports car, neither one is a reality. There is just to much time, effort, detail, and overhead to make it possible.

    I know that this kind of bike borders on the edge of demographics that won't be willing to pay for a "thrasher" bike, but unlike the big hit crowd there is a large group of older more mature guys that would love to have a big bike that pedals well and can be their every ride bike. The Flux and DHR are mostly safe because people will pay to win, the 5 Spot sounds like it will be safe because of its lower price point. Would preorders be a possibility? Offer it up direct and see if you can get 200 preorders? Or what ever minimum would be required, maybe that would be a way to gauge interest.

    Thanks!
    Ryan.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalEpic
    Well now I'm regretting selling my '06 RFX but my placeholder Uzzi VP is really growing on me so it's not a total loss. I have to say though, if the market price would have been anywhere close to $2900 that would be a tough pill to swallow.
    Have you seen the price on the new dhr?

    I like the idea that someone presented earlier about using some of the old tooling for a lower price combination but is that realistic to do with the dw link? So many welds for that dw link.... I doubt it would work out. Also I bet it would be a hard sell to talk Mr Turner into going backwards as far as engineering goes.

    If the spot is capable of what most 6" bikes are capable of, then you aren't riding those 6" bikes hard enough.

    I think the Highline was too much. My medium frame with a coil shock was a touch over 11 pounds. I think a 7.5 pound RFX is too little, that sounds like a pinner XC bike with stretched out legs.

    How about a stronger and stiffer Socom that is built to last? That is what I would like to see. Call it the OMGDHRFX.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007
    I could see this coming.

    The new dw spot is probably 95% capable of doing anything the old rfx could

    I think that is a fair to say, so that brings up the question, if there will be no rfx in 2010 what about a tapered headtube on the next production of spots ?

  44. #44
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    the truth is, Bryan123, that DT knew he couldn't build an rfx that would live up to your procoretarded standards.
    Oh, and, btw, could you be more subtle you think about your identity?
    ****

  45. #45
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    A couple more thoughts on this...

    1. Should anybody really care where these damn frames are welded anymore? I mean, the frames would still pass thru Turner HQ for assembly and QC, so would any of us REALLY notice any difference? Doubtful. And spare me the "keep jobs here" argument, albeit a totally valid one, but this is our hobby and fun factor that is at stake here!

    2. Bail on bike shops? Why not? The shops don't stock more than one high end frame like this because anyone throwing down these kinda duckets are going with a fully custom build, and probably custom color. So what incentive does a bike have to order a bunch of frames before the design is even reality?

    3. "High-end Freeride" is an oxymoron. The numbers simply don't support the tooling. Sure, there might be 100 people on this message board ready to throw down a deposit, but this message board is a macrocosm, not a microcosm. And just because Intense sells 50 of each of their freeride/downhill frames per year, doensn't mean the sector is flourishing. Most people looking for a frame in the "freeride" segment can only afford $1500-1700 because they work at Blockbuster and have lots of pimples.

    Something's gotta give here.... mfg'ing location, point of sale, or cost in general. Maybe Dave should weld up 100 of these by hand and charge 6k each??
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  46. #46
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    I agree with ditching the bike shops, in my almost 18 years of riding I have only had a couple of great shop experiences. I bet most of the people buying Turners already know that is what they want. I can only imagine that the number of Turners sold from cold walk-ins to bike shops is at tops 10 a year.

    I think that the online "shop" is still a sustainable avenue. I call them, they call Turner and order my bike. I get a good price, custom color, etc.

    I absolutely do care where my frame is welded! And I would probably look at another company if Turner moved production overseas...... I love Turner and have been riding a Turner bike of one kind or another since 1998, but since this is a hobby and not a "need" I do choose to support American jobs and American workers! Spending our money outside of the US is careless and irresponsible in a time when our neighbors are losing their jobs.....

    If this is just a "high-end freeride bike" or a completely capable bike of riding day to day has yet to be seen. If frame weight is 7.5lbs and it pedals as great with the DW link as the other bikes I have ridden I would definitely chose this as my do everything ride. It is not another Highline! I agree that bike was a little less desirable as a do everything bike, but I still ride mine every chance I can get and before I got my Flux it was taking on a lot of "Cross Country" rides.

    I hope that Dave figures this out, and if he can't do it and it won't support his business then, I can back that, but I hope he doesn't change his business model of making the best bikes in the USA just to produce this one model.

    Ryan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    A couple more thoughts on this...

    1. Should anybody really care where these damn frames are welded anymore? I mean, the frames would still pass thru Turner HQ for assembly and QC, so would any of us REALLY notice any difference? Doubtful. And spare me the "keep jobs here" argument, albeit a totally valid one, but this is our hobby and fun factor that is at stake here!

    2. Bail on bike shops? Why not? The shops don't stock more than one high end frame like this because anyone throwing down these kinda duckets are going with a fully custom build, and probably custom color. So what incentive does a bike have to order a bunch of frames before the design is even reality?

    3. "High-end Freeride" is an oxymoron. The numbers simply don't support the tooling. Sure, there might be 100 people on this message board ready to throw down a deposit, but this message board is a macrocosm, not a microcosm. And just because Intense sells 50 of each of their freeride/downhill frames per year, doensn't mean the sector is flourishing. Most people looking for a frame in the "freeride" segment can only afford $1500-1700 because they work at Blockbuster and have lots of pimples.

    Something's gotta give here.... mfg'ing location, point of sale, or cost in general. Maybe Dave should weld up 100 of these by hand and charge 6k each??

  47. #47
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    So, for the next generation of the Spot: beef it up a touch and give it a 1.5 headtube for adjustability (or some form of adjustable headset setup) to allow people to tweak the head angle. Maybe Adjustable shock fittings to tweak travel and geometry settings. Wouldn't have to gain a ton of weight to do so, perhaps.

    Add dropout options: 10x135 QR and 12x135 Maxle.

    Seems like something along those lines would be the best compromise to allow DT to still sell enough bikes to make it worth his while, while still keeping most of the customer base happy. Seems like that would be the best way to make the "do it all" bike in their lineup.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    So, for the next generation of the Spot: beef it up a touch and give it a 1.5 headtube for adjustability (or some form of adjustable headset setup) to allow people to tweak the head angle. Maybe Adjustable shock fittings to tweak travel and geometry settings. Wouldn't have to gain a ton of weight to do so, perhaps.

    Add dropout options: 10x135 QR and 12x135 Maxle.
    While he's at it go ahead and add 29" wheels too

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    Have you seen the price on the new dhr?

    I like the idea that someone presented earlier about using some of the old tooling for a lower price combination but is that realistic to do with the dw link? So many welds for that dw link.... I doubt it would work out. Also I bet it would be a hard sell to talk Mr Turner into going backwards as far as engineering goes.

    If the spot is capable of what most 6" bikes are capable of, then you aren't riding those 6" bikes hard enough.

    I think the Highline was too much. My medium frame with a coil shock was a touch over 11 pounds. I think a 7.5 pound RFX is too little, that sounds like a pinner XC bike with stretched out legs.

    How about a stronger and stiffer Socom that is built to last? That is what I would like to see. Call it the OMGDHRFX.
    Yah, I was aware when I posted it the DW Spot is 160mm fork cabable and is fairly close to the 2007/8 rfx....the tooling paid for but not with the intention of these being DW. Really not much volume the older RFX would demand. I guess I take that one back!
    Highline? Perhaps.
    I hope DT was just feeling negitive with that post.....with all my very best wishes......like to see the bike someday.
    I was hoping this DW RFX could look more like a cross between Highline and DW DHR!!!!!!!!

    I still stand by the notion if both these bikes will be gone there will be a hole in the line up.
    I might have even waited for the DW Spot but at the time I ordered the RFX the 2009 Spot was not going to have geometry for 160mm fork. Knowing what I know now (DW Spot in 2009 and that a 36 float could be lowered) ...............
    I digress but alas it is an open forum!

  50. #50
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    Isn't the banshee rune looking like a good bike with a great price right about now??
    ****

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Dave,

    Just make some longer links for the Spot and shut these tens of people up.


    CC: Darren Murphy

    Ditto

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    So, for the next generation of the Spot: beef it up a touch and give it a 1.5 headtube for adjustability (or some form of adjustable headset setup) to allow people to tweak the head angle. Maybe Adjustable shock fittings to tweak travel and geometry settings. Wouldn't have to gain a ton of weight to do so, perhaps.

    Add dropout options: 10x135 QR and 12x135 Maxle.

    Seems like something along those lines would be the best compromise to allow DT to still sell enough bikes to make it worth his while, while still keeping most of the customer base happy. Seems like that would be the best way to make the "do it all" bike in their lineup.
    Ditto this and DB's adjust links, call it the "Hot Spot"

  53. #53
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    Interesting update from DT.

    1. I wonder if Dave is bluffing just to keep the naggers off him. If so, he's probably laughing his a$$ off right now. Unlikely, but entirely possible.

    2. Dave threw out the "if 100 people put down a $1k deposit, I'll work on tooling for a DW Highline" a while ago. I think the anticipated RFX essentially would have to fill that role to at this point.... How many of you actually put a deposit down vs. how many folks bought a HL on closeout?

    3. 7.5 lbs. for a RFX still seems a tad light to me based on Turner's expectation on durability, but he knows better than me how much a 7.5 lb. frame can take.

    4. Can a $2900 RFX compete with a Reign X, Rune or similar bikes in the marketplace? Also, if shops aren't willing to stock them, where's that leave DT?

    5. Dave had to lose his a$$ on the Highline. Not only from the lack o' sales, but also the chainstay debacle.

    6. IMO, Noel can sell the DT (which is burly even in it's "lighter" version), because he's got a lot of Canucks that really do ride this bike to it's potential and need the extra weight. It has to do with geographic location as much as anything.....if you pedal up Fromme or Woodlot and still want to shuttle Cypress, Seymour or hit the bike park, this is the bike for you. It's not a coincidence that Noel's line started as V-Tach, DT and then the Endorphin.....not the other way around. My guess is the majority of Yanks are totally fine riding the Endo and his numbers likely support that.

    Word.
    EB

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Isn't the banshee rune looking like a good bike with a great price right about now??
    Personally... I don't want to push Banshee on the Turner forum... questionable form perhaps. Nothing but good things to say about Turner bikes.

    However I do have to say I am loving my Rune so far. It's like somebody threw a highline and a DW-spot in a blender with a $1200usd rebate and a free seatpost. Their customer service is top notch as well.


  55. #55
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    Hmmm. I fell in love with my 08 RFX since I could build and use it as a "6 spot", just a little slacker and a little more fun than my previous spot. It gained significant weight at times with coil and flats and larger tires but you can take those off and in 10 minutes you have a fantastic trail bike. Overall great fun for a 2000$ frame. Spot-like bikes are expanding constantly. 140mm is currently built of light more XC carbon stuff (e.g. Mojo SL, Blur LTc) and heavier aluminum stuff meant to shred a little more (e.g. Tracer) .Both families seem very popular but they are different families. The spot already caters to the 2nd, and with a 150-160mm fork it already has the slacker RFX angles. So I wonder how much time it will take till we see a 150mm spot . I'm guessing real soon. And then we'll have a DW 6 spot after all. holding fingers. But then I wouldn't spend 2900$ on any frame. Especially not now.
    Last edited by tald; 03-16-2010 at 12:26 PM.
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  56. #56
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    About time you showed up FM.
    If I was in the market for anaother frame right now, I'd pull the trigger in a nanosecond on a banshee spitfire. Great geometry, great value, fits my needs just fine. A similar turner is going to cost $10000.00 more???
    ****

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Personally... I don't want to push Banshee on the Turner forum... questionable form perhaps. Nothing but good things to say about Turner bikes.

    However I do have to say I am loving my Rune so far. It's like somebody threw a highline and a DW-spot in a blender with a $1200usd rebate and a free seatpost. Their customer service is top notch as well.

    Nice looking bike there! Polished hanldebar?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Personally... I don't want to push Banshee on the Turner forum... questionable form perhaps. Nothing but good things to say about Turner bikes.

    However I do have to say I am loving my Rune so far. It's like somebody threw a highline and a DW-spot in a blender with a $1200usd rebate and a free seatpost. Their customer service is top notch as well.
    Nice setup! Do you have any more photos of it?
     
    Sometimes I say stupid things

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    Nice setup! Do you have any more photos of it?
    More pics here. Bars are chromag OSX's.

    Back to your regularly scheduled Turner content!

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Sure, there might be 100 people on this message board ready to throw down a deposit, but this message board is a macrocosm, not a microcosm.
    WTF? This board is the MOST important thing in the WORLD!
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  61. #61
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    that's pretty sick - the banshee. nice work.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    More pics here. Bars are chromag OSX's.

    Back to your regularly scheduled Turner content!
    This bike is the genre I was hoping the RFX would be in.

    Note the K9 headset cups.... light, slack, 6", yet made for hitting jumps and gnar.

    Nice work!

  63. #63
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    Well on a serious note WTF $2900 seriously, i do agree why LBS for a boutique frame I think that's a dying day that few LBS live up to anyways, I would happily take it at dwl Spot $..

    LBS for meat and potatoes and fine dine online store like Go-Ride Larry etc for Turners and such like.

    If it were to go Taiwanese, I'm sorry but while they still do nice stuff, they're are still problems, I could name a number of high end Taiwanese made US bikes that have many issues, and cost as much as the previous non DWL Turners did etc, the costs are pasted on tot he margin a growing one the look is still high but the quality is still lower than what Turner have done!

    If this were to be the case then more Euro brands would def come into my radar for sure. for me right now my next bike has been a toss up between a Spitfire and dwl Spot, I was waiting to see how the RFX would pan out but because I have a DHR I don't need a FR bike but if designed as specced the way DT was going I would have looked at it based on GEO alone not because of the travel it has, though for me more comfort is a good thing as is slack efficient geo.

    Ive said it before if I want a Giant I will buy a Giant, not a Turner masquerading as a Giant from the same factory, I want my bikes to be different, I buy for a unique proposition, not the sea of sameness that you guys all crave

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  64. #64
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    I love DT and his bikes but I think FMs post says it all. Not a whole lot of market research needed there, just some common sense. Good luck with whatever you decide DT! Your bikes still kick ass

  65. #65
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    Is it one of the rules that manufacturers have to come out with a new version of every model every year?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tidybeard
    Is it one of the rules that manufacturers have to come out with a new version of every model every year?
    Far as I know, no! Banshee Rune has been the same for the past couple years far as I know. May be getting a few tweeks next year but i dunno. Mostly based on rider input. (Not to say Turner does not do this too. Just answering your ? to the best of my ability )

  67. #67
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    Well, that's a pisser for sure, I was really looking forward to this new frame and the potential that it represented. But from a cost stand point on a "small niche" machine, and expensive machine at that. Tooling up for such a small production run would be insanely expensive, and would not pay for the dies and butting equipment.

    I suppose sending construction over seas to Taiwan would be one solution. And if DT did that he might as well start building the Flux and maybe the Spot in carbon! I wouldn't have a terribly huge issue with it, although Made in America is one of the reasons I purchase two frames, as long as quality didn't suffer. Discuss?

    happy trails...

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    Get out and ride!

  68. #68
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    Thanks Boone. I'm just not sure what all the fuss is about. DT is saying he doesn't feel that the current market will support a 2010 RFX - no big deal.

    Maybe things will be different in 2011 - every good business cuts its cloth as necessary.

    FWIW, I believe the RFX reached its zenith with the 06. I remember the day it came home and challenged the then favourite mode of transport....then tried to mate with it.




  69. #69
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    That's a bit of a bummer, not so much because of the RFX itself (my 2006 is still going strong!) but because of what it means for this sector of the bike industry as a whole. I do hope that it is only a speed bump and not the end of the project, given the amount of effort and energy that has already gone into prototyping the DW RFX.

    The way I see it, the whole argument "support the American worker and industry by buying Made in the USA" is naive at best. When foreign countries hold roughly 50% of the American public debt (and China and Taiwan alone hold 15%), the American economy and manufacturing industry are already held by the balls and where frames are welded becomes rapidly pretty insignificant, if one is worried about the future of American workers. The wheels of the American economy keep grinding because China, Japan, and oil exporting countries keep supporting it.

    It may be that the business model of designing in house and outsourcing to semi-local manufacturing outfits (like SAPA) is getting squeezed out of the market between global bike companies (Trek, Giant, ...) and smaller outfits that moved production overseas.

    I don't know how the likes of Ventana and Intense are doing, but it could be the case that for small production runs, in today's economy, in-house manufacturing is more economically viable.

  70. #70
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    deleted was a rant
    Last edited by scottryana; 03-16-2010 at 04:10 PM.

  71. #71
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    Some people think the chinese are keeping their currency artificially devalued in order to support the current trade imbalance and build their industries.

    http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/pm116/

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryana
    Nothing about the "support the American worker and industry by buying Made in the USA" is naive.....

    Your absolutely right that a large portion of the US debt is held outside of the country, but using the argument that because they already hold 15% is a case for not worrying about the rest and to just go ahead and throw it their way too. There is a major problem with that attitude and one that got us into the problem that we are currently in and that is not acceptable in my eyes. If I can pay the guy next door to give me a product as good or better then I can get anywhere else, you can be damn sure that I am going to do it! If not, what happens to that guy? Whether he own SAPA, is the powder coater or welder, or hell even the truck driver? I will tell you what, they might not have a job. SO guess what this attitude of oh hell just send it overseas they already do a lot of work for the US, is not only NAIVE but also a good way to increase government assistance and help to those that you "helped" put out of a job!

    P.S. No I am not at all effected by this, nor do I know anyone that has been put out of a job or effected by this directly, but I do work for the government and I do wish that the majority of people would pull their heads out of their ass and see that the US is in trouble and that we as a US public are responsible to help fix it!

    Ryan.
    Ryan,

    I grew up in Italy and at some point in my life decided that if I wanted to pursue my professional interests I would be better served by opportunities on the other side of the Atlantic. So I packed my bags, kissed my goodbyes to my family, and moved to the US. So, in some sense, I am one of those guys that was displaced by globalization. Thirty years ago, I wouldn't have had to make the same choice.

    I don't see the fact that 50% of the US public debt is held by foreign countries as a problem, just as a reality of a global trade market. Everyone lives in it and better get used to it to make it as a business. Obviously this doesn't mean that everything has to be moved overseas, just that one can't ignore the reality that the competition may or may not take advantage of such cost cutting measures.

    Cost isn't everything. The statement "proudly made in the USA" doesn't mean much to me, just as I couldn't care less if something is made in Italy. What I do care about is quality per unit cost, performance per unit cost, and support per unit cost. If made in the USA allows one to control processes better and improve one or more of these metrics, I am all for it. Otherwise it's a label, like Gucci.

  73. #73
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    I run the 02 w/ 5/5" rockers. I don't miss the 1/2"
    What about a slacker beefed up 5-Spot able to run the new longer travel Fox 36 ?
    All about the ride

  74. #74
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well DAMN! Kind of a strange way for DT to come out with that news.

    Kind of glad I could never sell my Reign X1. Tried many times and even dropping the price to $400 for the frame. Got a CCDB in there now and am just blown away with the ability of this machine.

    I guess it turned out for the better! Kept the Highline too. Jesus I would have jumped out of my office window onto the train tracks if I heard this and still didn't have my Highline. I was this damn close to selling it too. Thanks for the support from you guys I ended up telling the buyers to F-Off.

    FM's Rune is a killer AM rig. Although the rear shock looks totally inadequate.



    I will be looking into the new Reign X or Firebird I guess. Hope they are selling them with no snapping rockers...


    Who wants to bet Highlines go up in price in the next couple years? For a clean one of course and from the $1600 discount price.

  75. #75
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    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That's terrible news.

    And I think that It can get even worse... the RFX is the future of Turner, and if it doesn't get made, it can mean the death of the company. Why? because the Spot is getting older, 140mm is XC territory and people riding XC trails like their bikes light, 160-180 of travel is considered normal for an enduro frame nowadays.

    Over here, in Europe a lot of people dream with a Liteville 901, Lapierre Foggy or Intense Uzzi.... al of them have 180-200mm of travel. Yeah!!! we are going crazy with the travel of Enduro bikes.

    So, what would I do.... Ok, I'll hold the RFX until the Storm passes away. But I'll tweak the Spot with a little more of travel.... Thats an easy job and can be made without too much problems.

  76. #76
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    I really don't think DT is bluffing about this. My local Trek dealer in San Diego doesn't even plan to have the Scratch or Remedy in stock. All special order. Which probably means most people around here aren't looking for anything over 5" bikes.

    I think DH bike remain sellers because people who buy these tend to travel to various courses and race. But as for Am/FR bikes, just finding a location to build a skills park around here has been nearly impossible. If they start building the stuff, the interest in the bikes may follow.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That's terrible news.

    And I think that It can get even worse... the RFX is the future of Turner, and if it doesn't get made, it can mean the death of the company. Why? because the Spot is getting older, 140mm is XC territory and people riding XC trails like their bikes light, 160-180 of travel is considered normal for an enduro frame nowadays.

    Over here, in Europe a lot of people dream with a Liteville 901, Lapierre Foggy or Intense Uzzi.... al of them have 180-200mm of travel. Yeah!!! we are going crazy with the travel of Enduro bikes.

    So, what would I do.... Ok, I'll hold the RFX until the Storm passes away. But I'll tweak the Spot with a little more of travel.... Thats an easy job and can be made without too much problems.
    I usually don't see Turners around here, but I have seen quite a few of the new DW ones lately.

    Dave has never ruled out going overseas if he ends up having to to make money to feed his family. Silly thing is that once he does move overseas, his business is going to boom through the roof! Imagine how many people are dying to get on a DW Turner at a good price? LOTS!


    I'm really depressed that DT seems so down about it. I think he's taking this one pretty hard.

  78. #78
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    I like the idea of 1.5 HT (ie future headsets may allow adjustable head angle) and rear maxle on the current DW Spot. And yes, to beat a dead horse, more tire clearance in the rear so I could fit my precious 650's in there. Economics, I always did hate that subject and let's not forget the old adage -- liars can figure but figures don't lie. If the sales volume isn't there then it isn't there. Only DT knows how many of what he sells. Perhaps direct order or overseas manufacturing is the answer. I wouldn't be against either of those avenues provided the bike gets manufactured to spec. Either way, and I'm sorry to say this, the RFX is not something I'd buy at $2900 or any price point. I'm just a trail rider and mostly keep my wheels (and skis for that matter) on the ground. I'd be willing to bet the majority of riders are like minded and vote so with their dollars. All of that said, if the RFX does get made, I'd like to demo one for s***'s and giggles.
    Drink beer all day

  79. #79
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    I don't see Mr Trek or Mr Specialized answering to their customers like DT is always. I know is disappointing if is true but hey.... making bikes IS a business and if DT considers that there's no market for it then sorry for the 50 guys that wanted a RFX
    I would love an RFX but for now my DW Spot keeps me happy

    As long as their CS keeps kicking butt, I will support Turner

    We'll support your decision DT

  80. #80
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    We have carbon 160ish bikes coming from Ibis and Evil that will fit in the mid-2k range built in Asia this summer. This is the future of big bikes at somewhat reasonable prices. Metal is too heavy and too hard to manipulate to the shapes necessary to get this kind of travel. Carbon is super strong and easy to build once the molds are set. A complete departure from the Turner of the past will be necessary to bring the RFX to market. This is the decision that must be made by DT.

    At least that's what I'm guessing...
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by vwvoodoo
    We have carbon 160ish bikes coming from Ibis and Evil that will fit in the mid-2k range built in Asia this summer. This is the future of big bikes at somewhat reasonable prices. Metal is too heavy and too hard to manipulate to the shapes necessary to get this kind of travel. Carbon is super strong and easy to build once the molds are set. A complete departure from the Turner of the past will be necessary to bring the RFX to market. This is the decision that must be made by DT.

    At least that's what I'm guessing...
    Sounds right from a performance aspect, however I doubt the typical Turner Clientele want an overseas Carbon bike.

  82. #82
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    I'm perplexed to say the least. A little confused, a little clear on why, and overall bummed on this shithouse economy to cause such a radical bike to be put down...

    IMO Turners are the best bikes period. The proto looks sweet.

    I will wait for the RFX if it comes out June 23rd, 2010 at 3:33pm.

    [/QUOTE]
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  83. #83
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    You still ride bikes?

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    About time you showed up FM.
    If I was in the market for anaother frame right now, I'd pull the trigger in a nanosecond on a banshee spitfire. Great geometry, great value, fits my needs just fine. A similar turner is going to cost $10000.00 more???
    I've got a Spitfire coming in about three weeks...Going back to 26" only till Banshee sends me my Claymore (picture a 5in 29er Spitfire in black ano ).....There are certain guys on these forums that to me have much respect when they talk bikes, Renagade, FM, and Boone are for sure three of them..So when they said on the Turner forum that Banshee bikes are in fact "The real deal" I'd listen to this very carefully...Banshee is the biggest sleeper bike company out there right now, but not for those who know.....I mean ZERO respect to Turner and this forum by saying this......CF.

  85. #85
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    catching up

    Good to hear ya'lls thoughts.

    vw sees the future for high end. I am not steering the market, lower weights and lower prices are. throw in a big Co ad now and then to drive the point home. That is business. Sceptic is right, I have yet to see those models in a shop either, and I have been looking for a Scratch to see how the 142 converts to 135. Just because there are only 100 riders that will pay retail for an RFX does not mean that I am not thinking about it, making notes and planning for it's production, some day. There NEEDs to be a sh!t load of Banshees and Scratch and SX and Coves and on and on sold in the 160+ travel range to increase the size of the market so there are then enough riders looking to upgrade to an RFX.

    Some of you are not really keeping in mind what that proto really is, it is not the scrawny trail bike with a bit more travel than a 5 Spot. It is a 66.5 HA low bb shreader that has an even SMALLER market than the numerical version of the old RFX! Once again I move the target ahead of the bell curve. Very few are gnarcore enough to ride it to it's full potential, and all the rest are going to want to build the Fing thing under 30 lbs. To quote a favorite, I am in a tight spot.


    DT

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    There is no date planned. I really doubt there are many people willing to ride a 7.5lb frame and pay $2900 for it, regardles of where it is made and who has a job because of it. The values out of Taiwan and China are too aluring for those wanting a big travel bike. Based on the price of the DHR, and the minimum first run we have to run, Sorry, but the dozens of shops that have asked about availability since the showing of the proto last fall mostly want, wait for it...
    1. For the caller of course, IF the person on the phone is pressed they squeemishly say maybe they would take one for the floor. Unless we either drop the price notably by going overseas or sell these things 'direct' and cut out the shops there is a tiny market for a bike like this. Remember the Highline, I do.

    DT
    I'm bummed. I payed more than that for my 2009 Foes FXR and it's a single pivot! So either I'm stupid (a possibility) or there is a market for this sort of bike (however small) . I was planning on this being the replacement for my Foes.

    I'm sure you've already crunched the numbers on expected sales versus production costs and found this to be a losing endeavor. It's too bad.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  87. #87
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    ***removed quote from banned user***


    But you would kill an aluminum 7.5lb 160mm frame even sooner. When built correctly, carbon is way stronger than light aluminum. The failure is more dramatic, but if it gets to that point, you have other issues to worry about...
    This isn't a Kestrel from the 90's we're talking about... Carbon is super advanced and capable of doing everything we need.
    To make a big strong bike out of metal, it will be heavier than most of the AM/Trail crowd will accept. That will kill sales of the bike and eventually the company making it.
    I'm not saying DT needs to build for the masses, but he does need to consider his competitors in the high-end niche market - they are doing carbon and making frames 2-3 lbs lighter. As we all age and have more money, we are more than willing to change perspective in order to get up that hill a little easier.

    If all you do is shuttle and and freeride, there's probably a 38lb+ metal bike that is calling your name - DT knows that the buying public wants a bike that could be <=30lbs with the right parts. We will have to see if his name could go on the side of it.
    Last edited by SSINGA; 03-18-2010 at 02:30 PM.
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  88. #88
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    Whew, I'm glad I didn't get rid of my IH 7Point light
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simo Hayha
    Maybe I should have been a little more clear. I'm not worried so much by the structural integrity of carbon (if engineered properly) as much as compromising said integrity during a crash, or debris getting kicked back against the DT while riding.
    Being nervous about crushing a carbon bike against a rock in a bad crash is justified, not as easy at might sound but still justified. However, there is no debris big enough to ruin the downtube if built right.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody
    However, there is no debris big enough to ruin the downtube if built right.
    You aren't serious, are you?


    DT: do what you have to do. I'm still kicking around on my antique '02 RFX, and I was dying to see the new model as much as anybody.
    Take your time, and release if, when, and how it makes $$$ sense for you to do so.

  91. #91
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    I don't know.

    For the kind of riding an RFX will see, I would not want a carbon frame. That frame is going to see alot of punishment and people will push themselves on it to do bigger, faster, etc. Mostly likely crashes will occur, and that's when I'd be worried about the frame hitting a rock, tree, etc etc.

    Carbon frames for road and xc frames, I can get with. For a heavy duty AM rig/light FR bike, not so much.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  92. #92
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    I loved my previous two Turner bikes more than any other bikes I have owned. They gave me a USA made frame, a neutral foundation for building up MY bike, handled and performed great, were easy to maintain, and always had some interesting, geeky frame tweaking option. Plus I knew Turner CS had my back.

    Unless I suddenly gained lots of money, a time machine, or a life-changing passionate interest in a different type of riding, I am not going to buy the new RFX if and when it hits the market. But as someone who feels affinity for the Turner brand, I do like knowing that the RFX is out there. Even with my little XC/trail bikes, I can at times imagine "maybe I would" and my little sibling to the potent RFX suddenly feels a little bigger for a moment. There is an existence value allure to big bikes, especially those bigger bikes that aren't completely beyond the scope of my riding interests. More than a highly specialized XC race bike or DHR, the RFX completes the Turner brand, even for this older not-gnarcore rider.

    I make no apologies for preferring a USA made frame, but maybe that's less important right now. If Turner can do more with their bikes for less by going overseas for frame manufacturing, I can see it. We are making different financial choices, and I don't see this economic mess getting better anytime soon. There is no quick fix.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Good to hear ya'lls thoughts.

    vw sees the future for high end. I am not steering the market, lower weights and lower prices are. throw in a big Co ad now and then to drive the point home. That is business. Sceptic is right, I have yet to see those models in a shop either, and I have been looking for a Scratch to see how the 142 converts to 135. Just because there are only 100 riders that will pay retail for an RFX does not mean that I am not thinking about it, making notes and planning for it's production, some day. There NEEDs to be a sh!t load of Banshees and Scratch and SX and Coves and on and on sold in the 160+ travel range to increase the size of the market so there are then enough riders looking to upgrade to an RFX.

    Some of you are not really keeping in mind what that proto really is, it is not the scrawny trail bike with a bit more travel than a 5 Spot. It is a 66.5 HA low bb shreader that has an even SMALLER market than the numerical version of the old RFX! Once again I move the target ahead of the bell curve. Very few are gnarcore enough to ride it to it's full potential, and all the rest are going to want to build the Fing thing under 30 lbs. To quote a favorite, I am in a tight spot.


    DT
    I am afraid you are right. I live in an area where we have trails that justify a bike like the RFX but you won't find many of them in the local shops. The demand is there but the shops seem reluctant to stock them.

    FWIW, the proto was exactly what I was looking for.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Just because there are only 100 riders that will pay retail for an RFX does not mean that I am not thinking about it, making notes and planning for it's production, some day.
    So on the bright side, at least we can continue bickering amongst ourselves as to what the bike should look like. 1.5 head tube, anyone?

    I too feel the Turner lineup is incomplete without the RFX. Glad I still have my '08, but don't like the idea of having to choose between American made (Uzzi) and DW Link (Firebird) if/when I need to replace it.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simo Hayha
    No one wants to invest anymore. Nowadays business want to see immediate profit. It's understandable because things change pretty drastically year to year. However, what if DT were to extend a line of credit to the shops, maybe absorb a reasonable percentage of the shops purchase for some floorspace/exposure? If the DW is such a dynamic design, folks like myself may not be so spendthrifty.
    I am not sure that it is a bad idea for Turner to sell direct. It is not like the shops have exclusive territory anyway due to the web retailers. If the higher margins from direct sales allow them to offer a more complete product line it could be a win/win. My preference is to support my local shops but I am sure a lot of the e-dorks would prefer to order direct.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  96. #96
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    ***removed quote from banned user***

    It comes down to business and overall jobs, not just a specific piece of the job situation. Spec, Trek, and Giant manufacture frames in Taiwan, and they employ a lot of people here in the states. For example, I have friends working corporate jobs at all 3. One of them lives and works in Taiwan. If they made frames here in the US, would they be competitive enough to keep the same number of US employees? I don't know but doubt it. From numbers I have seen in the past, the cost difference is stupid huge. Few companies can ignore it, and several take advantage of it.

    Sure it is nice to think about a handful of jobs in Oregon welding and assembling Turner frames, but if Turner can't sell the bikes, they aren't getting those jobs anyway.

    It is a tough call that depends on desired outcomes.
    Last edited by SSINGA; 03-18-2010 at 02:26 PM.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    So on the bright side, at least we can continue bickering amongst ourselves as to what the bike should look like. 1.5 head tube, anyone?

    I too feel the Turner lineup is incomplete without the RFX. Glad I still have my '08, but don't like the idea of having to choose between American made (Uzzi) and DW Link (Firebird) if/when I need to replace it.
    ....and with the proposed RFX edging a little closer to the old Highline it could fill both spaces. Like I said before I love the Highline looks. I have yet to push my RFX to it's limits and might never but I would like to score an old Highline someday. Pure lust.

    I think we will see this bike. Call it RFX or Highline. 1.5" yes. Can it look more like the DW DHR? I'd like that too.

    Cheers!

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick.
    You aren't serious, are you?


    DT: do what you have to do. I'm still kicking around on my antique '02 RFX, and I was dying to see the new model as much as anybody.
    Take your time, and release if, when, and how it makes $$$ sense for you to do so.
    If you smack a boulder with the downtube it may or may not be damaged, but if it is big enough to damage it I doubt I'd be calling it "debris" I had a sharp jagged rock the size of hmmm maybe a grapefruit get flung up and clanked into my carbon downtube really hard at a decent clip, it was the most sickening sound ever considering my frame was still new. I saw in slow motion the rock get flung up from a friends bike ahead and get richocheted into my bottom bracket area/DT. I pulled over and suprisingly just chipped the paint. Maybe we're not calling "debris" the same thing.

    Either way though, I don't disagree with the fact that a bike with as much travel as the RFX might get broke being carbon if its ridden within the manor it was designed for.

    Saying that, I agree with DT, most people these days looking to get that much travel (like a nomad or firebird) probably don't really need the extra travel but just lik ehaving it either just for fun or to make up for skill. Many of these riders think they need the extra travel but don't want a heavy bike, which is why they would like Carbon. For pure marketing puroposes I bet he would sell more Carbon RFX's to the general masses but I'm sure would lose a big segment of the die hard Turner customers.

    Look at the Nomad, so many people who ride XC think they need a Nomad, the lure of the bigger travel but stiff pedaling have made this a very popular bike, I wouldn't want one but many people who do not need one buy it anyway. And now SC is supposedly making a Carbon Nomad, I'm guessing it will be a very popular bike, I'd bet DT is looking at that bike going. HMMMMMM

  99. #99
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    ***removed quote from banned user***

    You know Bryan, if you put half as much time looking for a job as you do coming up with a new mtbr identity, you'd be employed by now.
    Last edited by SSINGA; 03-18-2010 at 02:26 PM.
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  100. #100
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    I guess...

    ***removed quote from banned user***

    True, nobody wants to invest anymore, BUT... I see that as a function of the political climate. It certainly is tough to invest in new equipment, spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on infrastructure, and take the gamble on new employees when you don't know what you will be paying for taxes, employee overhead, or forced health insurance payments and things of that nature. If I had a couple hundred thousand dollars lying around waiting for a home, the current USA would be one of the last places I placed my money, not because of the workers, but because of the government and the very real potential most of it would be summarily conviscated in business related costs.

    Business is tough enough as it is, toss in uncertainty and a fiscal policy that spends money first and looks for ways to collect revenue later, and it gets damned near impossible.

    Getting back to the topic at hand, I can't say as I blame DT one bit for putting a slight hold on this frame, who knows what the next 12 months will bring, he may just end up having to pay an extra 8-12% employment tax to cover everyone elses health insurance.

    JMHO, and no, I didn't "want" to start a political debate, just perhaps maybe shed a bit more light on the hard working businessperson/entrepreneur's plight in today's economy.
    Last edited by SSINGA; 03-18-2010 at 02:26 PM.

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