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  1. #1
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    DHX AIR on a Remedy?

    So I've seen a few other threads here and on Ridemonkey about putting a DHX Coil on a Remedy, but I think a DHX Air would be better suited to this bike. I feel like I really can't get the RP23 to perform the way I want from jump/drop standpoint and I'm wondering if anyone's switched to a piggyback airshock for this bike?

  2. #2
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    If you want a piggy back airshock, look into an ISX-6 evolver or a roco wc air. I agree with you that on the remedy 9 I rode the rp3 just wasn't enough. I have an evolver ISX-6 that I'd really recommend, and if you're curious to know my experiences with it feel free to ask.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    If you want a piggy back airshock, look into an ISX-6 evolver or a roco wc air. I agree with you that on the remedy 9 I rode the rp3 just wasn't enough. I have an evolver ISX-6 that I'd really recommend, and if you're curious to know my experiences with it feel free to ask.
    I would second that!! I had a DHX Air then an Evolver ISX 6, on a session 77 and the Evolver was far and away the better performer, and completely tunable to any riding style/frame/rider weight. The Rocco WC looks sweet too...

  4. #4
    Nightmare on Lyrik st. VI
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    sessionrider, forget about fitting Roco WC on a Remedy. It doesn't fit the frame. Unfortunately the shock size is 7.875"x2.25" (if it's not this, it's close, I have the bike at the shop right now).

    I want to try a coil shock on the Remedy. And there aren't many options. I found only the DHX 5 and the CCDB. There are more choices on the air shock department.

  5. #5
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    My bad. Heard great things about the ccdb, just had bad experiences with the dhx air...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    I want to try a coil shock on the Remedy. And there aren't many options. I found only the DHX 5 and the CCDB. There are more choices on the air shock department.
    Yeah, I wouldn't mind having a coil shock either, but at the same time, I'm still trying to keep this bike in the 30 lb. range (and don't feel like shelling out for a ti spring).

    Anyway, good info so far--thanks. Surpirsed to hear people are so stoked on the ISX-6. I'd definitely like to hear more about people's experiences w/ this shock. Being somewhat of a Fox whore, I'd be reluctant to switch though so make your pitch good.

    By the way, anyone know the i to i on the Remedy shock?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous E
    Yeah, I wouldn't mind having a coil shock either, but at the same time, I'm still trying to keep this bike in the 30 lb. range (and don't feel like shelling out for a ti spring).

    Anyway, good info so far--thanks. Surpirsed to hear people are so stoked on the ISX-6. I'd definitely like to hear more about people's experiences w/ this shock. Being somewhat of a Fox whore, I'd be reluctant to switch though so make your pitch good.

    By the way, anyone know the i to i on the Remedy shock?
    I wont pitch it to you, I'm to old for that and I have no stake in Manitou's business other then that I own one, but I will tell you my experiences and you can decide if that sounds good. I assume you've ridden a DHX-A and you know how it feels?

    At any rate, the ISX-6 is the most linear air shock I've ridden. There's a volume adjuster on it that makes it more or less progressive throughout the entire stroke. Some frames need a bit more midstroke tuning, and this works perfectly at fixing any problems that might arise from a rising rate. It doesn't have that super plush feeling at the top of the travel that continues on until it suddenly gets harsh at the bottom. Its very predictable and uses its travel well, with a fairly even springrate all the way through the stroke. It has the best springrate control of any air shock on the market. (I actually haven't ridden a roco tst air, but given that I had a roco tst coil and hated it, I can only assume that I wouldn't like the damper in the air). The roco wc air is good, but not as good.

    Because the springrate is so predictable and doesn't blow through the initial part of the travel, the air spring is actually a pretty important advantage over a coil. You get the infinite adjustability of an air spring, and you can actually get the exact springrate you need. With a coil, all you're doing is preloading the spring, and thats not going to actually change the springrate, its just going to change how much pressure there is on the spring to start with.

    There is a slight amount of initial stiction at the top of the stroke, you have to get some weight on it to break it free, you can't just push down on the saddle like you can with a CCDB. I'm currently switching back and forth between the two (isx-6 and ccdb) trying to decide which I like more right now, I'm on an extremely progressive bike, which is the quintessential "don't mix with airshock" type of frame, but the ISX-6 seems to be doing pretty well, its definitely not as nice as it was on my more linear glory, but I still might end up keeping it over the ccdb. At any rate, once you get it moving a little bit into the stroke, there is no stiction, and I've never felt it on the trail. Its only breaking through the initial stiction at the top of the stroke when I first sit on the bike that I notice it.

    As far as the damping is concerned, its pretty spot on with its adjustments. It has the best high speed damping of any shock I have ever felt period. The way it works is that you have the piggy back, which has a boost valve. The boost valve adjusts how strong the damping is. The LSC adjuster does exactly as it's supposed to, and the HSC (like every other HSC adjuster on the market) a way to control the threshold where LSC opens up and turns to HSC. Most companies will tell you that what I just said is not the way it works, in their actual adverts, but it is in the shocks actual function. They're trying to dumb it down to make it less confusing. That said, its hard to be angry at them since that threshold is an extremely important adjustment. At any rate, I digress. You can set the "HSC" to such a low amount that the shock is stable for pedaling and not diving through its travel on harsh rocks, corners, rocks, and G-outs, but remains incredibly plush for small bumps. In this regard its much better then my CCDB. The rebound adjuster is very good, it feels smooth and controlled and quite linear, which is very important on an airshock (which, as linear as this is, still has the characteristic of ramping up near the end of the stroke), especially on a rising rate frame like mine. (Basically, if this shock works for my bike, it'll work for anything).

    I also like working with manitou alot. They've sent me a couple things free of charge and helped me out in a couple binds that I put myself in (bent the valve because I had the valve cap on in my previous bike (giant glory) and they helped set me up again. They're good people.

    That's my experience with the ISX-6. I've also had some time with the roco wc air, which is a great shock and feels pretty similar to a roco wc coil, but I'm not a huge fan of the roco dampers, from the wc to the tst. Not my cup of tea. If you want something that is incredibly plush and you never feel the trail on, its a very good shock.

    The DHX-5 air I've have mixed feelings on. Every one I've ever ridden suffered from a weak midstroke (And actually, because most of the time piggy back air shocks are specced OEM, they're DHX-5 air's, people have an association with air shocks blowing through travel). From that standpoint, its not a very good shock. However, alot of people have success with putting smaller rp23 air cans on them (which are smaller) to make them a little more progressive, and that seems to work out pretty well. Udi, over on ridemonkey, has played with oil weights and volumes in his, which is a more adjustable way of fixing the problem because you can dial it in alot better then "two sizes" - this volume adjust is much like the volume adjust you get on the ISX-6, but a little more involved in the process then turning a knob. I've never ridden a volume adjusted DHX5 air, so I'm not sure how they feel, but given that I'm 100% confidant that the guy knows way more about suspension then I do, is even more pedantic about it then I am (which is impressive in and of its own right) I'm fairly confidant that his bike feels pretty damn good.

    A couple last things of note.
    if you're going for weight, the DHX air is the lightest at around 400 grams for 8.75x2.75 I believe. the ISX-6 is 495grams for 8,75x2.75, and I believe the roco is somewhere in the range of the ISX-6 for the same size, although I know its the heaviest of the three. You don't save a ton of weight by going to the roco over a traditional coil with ti spring.

    As far as overheating, its quite misinformed. I run alot of different trails. Some of them are about 10 minutes averaging probably 20mph, with high speeds up into the mid 30's over some fairly rough dirt with some rocks here and there, and others of it is a bit slower through alot rockier stuff. Don't know if you've ever heard of tunnel trail in SB, but its about 4 miles with 3500ft of decent over extremely rocking terrain. Pro guys tend to be in the 11-13 minute range, I've done it in sub 16 minutes. Not trying to toot my own horn, but I've put this shock through a reasonable amount of abuse. The damper is hot to touch at the end of a run like that, as are my brake pads, my hands hurt like the dickens, but theres no significant change in the feel of the shock, except it getting slightly more progressive by the end of the run. I also pedal this thing up hills on a 40 lb DH bike, so it has to pedal pretty damn well. None of the air shocks I know of have any significant more trouble with overheating then coilovers.



    Hope that helps

  8. #8
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    You might consider the DHXa IF the linkage design has a bit of mid stroke "hold" built into it. Some AM frame linkages are now being built to air shock mid-stroke softness. I don't know if the Remedy has this. I would have thought the floater would have taken care of the air BO issue. Too bad it doesn't.

    The DHXa is infamous for the midstroke softness - but I think it could work well on the right frame.

    That said the ISX seems to be the best long travel air shock right now (based on comments like William42's, my neighbor has one as well and really likes it)

    P

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    You might consider the DHXa IF the linkage design has a bit of mid stroke "hold" built into it. Some AM frame linkages are now being built to air shock mid-stroke softness. I don't know if the Remedy has this. I would have thought the floater would have taken care of the air BO issue. Too bad it doesn't.

    The DHXa is infamous for the midstroke softness - but I think it could work well on the right frame.

    That said the ISX seems to be the best long travel air shock right now (based on comments like William42's, my neighbor has one as well and really likes it)

    P
    Well...not exactly. The ISX-6 (not the ISX-4) suits my needs very well. Thats not to say that a roco WC A isn't a good shock, or the DHX Air isn't. I really like my ISX-6, and it works pretty fantastically on low leverage bikes, and works pretty well on progressive bikes, but alot of people like the roco WC Air because it really smooths out the trail, doesn't feel harsh, and is a great shock overall. Its just not my taste. It is a little heavier though, and its not been without its share of problems.

    Also, from everything I can tell the problems with the DHX 5 Air aren't in the damper. Its in the giant air can that causes the damping to be overworked until the end of the travel where it finally ramps up. Thats an easy thing to tune out if you're willing to take the time by switching to a smaller air can or take even a little more time to tune oil volume (and thus air volume within the can). It seems to work pretty well from everything I hear, although as I haven't ridden one I'm not willing to put out a strong opinion as to whether I like it or not. One thing is for certain, I don't like the stock DHX air.

    For overall tuning options, ease of use, easy setup, and reliability my nod goes to the ISX-6. Plus I like dealing with manitou because they'll roll over backwards to help you. But if you're a die hard fox fan who's been using fox and really likes supporting fox, the modded DHX-5 should be a pretty good option. If you decide to go that route I'll dig up a thread in which Udi describes how it works, what he does, and gives a set of instructions (with pictures) on how to do it.

    hope that helps!

  10. #10
    I dig trails!
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    Well...not exactly. The ISX-6 (not the ISX-4) suits my needs very well. Thats not to say that a roco WC A isn't a good shock, or the DHX Air isn't....
    I did not say that any of the shocks were bad, my point was to match the shock to the linkage engineering through the travel.

    My understanding is that the Roco is very difficult to get to the end of travel, tho it is otherwise great. And the Remedy, I believe, is progressive at the end stroke - not a great match.

    I agree about the DHXa spring being the issue, but many have tried the smaller sleeve and/or putting fillers in outter air chamber with only limited results. But if the linkage has that midstoke designed into it, then it would be great (Yeti rail design, for example).

    The ISX seems to have the whole package well done; spring and damping. And is more linear and controlled.

    P

  11. #11
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    Isn't the size of the shock that comes on the Remedy 7.875" x 2.25"?
    The closest size Manitou has posted on their website is 7.875" x 2.0" and 8.5" x 2.5".

  12. #12
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    I ended up getting an Evolver ISX-6 for my Remedy. I think it will fit, but I will only be sure when I get it. However it's going to be a long time since I can ride it, due to the weather.

    The RP23 had to go. It was bottoming out way too frequently (although I can only tell by the O-ring) even without jumping, and I was already running higher pressures that only gave me 20% or less of sag.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    I ended up getting an Evolver ISX-6 for my Remedy. I think it will fit, but I will only be sure when I get it. However it's going to be a long time since I can ride it, due to the weather.

    The RP23 had to go. It was bottoming out way too frequently (although I can only tell by the O-ring) even without jumping, and I was already running higher pressures that only gave me 20% or less of sag.
    You were able to find the proper i2i/stroke length? I wrote all that stuff without realizing that it might not come in the right size. Somebody mentioned that it isn't listed as the right size. Let us know how it goes, Hopefully you found the right size and it wont throw your geometry all whack.

  14. #14
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    Yes, 7.875"x2.25".

    One of the reasons I got it right now (usually I'm really slow to decide on big purchases), is that it seems (from their website) that Manitou is not producing them in this size anymore.

    But if you look for instance at Beyond Bikes' website, that size is listed. Since they offered 7.875x2.25 in the past, which is a popular size, and the 7.875x2 is still shown as available at Manitou's site, I'm guessing that it's a mistake on Manitou's website.

    But to play safe, I ordered right away. I'm keeping the fingers crossed to get the one with the older stickers. That shock is beautiful.

  15. #15
    MattSavage
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    Yes, 7.875"x2.25".

    One of the reasons I got it right now (usually I'm really slow to decide on big purchases), is that it seems (from their website) that Manitou is not producing them in this size anymore.

    But if you look for instance at Beyond Bikes' website, that size is listed. Since they offered 7.875x2.25 in the past, which is a popular size, and the 7.875x2 is still shown as available at Manitou's site, I'm guessing that it's a mistake on Manitou's website.

    But to play safe, I ordered right away. I'm keeping the fingers crossed to get the one with the older stickers. That shock is beautiful.
    Universal has them too in the 2.25 stroke, for $460.... Use this coupon for 15% more off... For 15% off orders over $300.00, use coupon code vip15
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  16. #16
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    That's exact;y what I did. $390 after coupon. They had 2 in stock. Supposedly there is 1 left. But it still shows 2.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by William42
    You were able to find the proper i2i/stroke length? I wrote all that stuff without realizing that it might not come in the right size. Somebody mentioned that it isn't listed as the right size. Let us know how it goes, Hopefully you found the right size and it wont throw your geometry all whack.
    Edit: forget, doesn't fit, see post below
    Last edited by amrgb; 01-28-2009 at 05:16 PM.

  18. #18
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    hey amrgb

    any chance of a pic of the shock with it fitted to the bike ?

    thanks

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    I just want to let you guys know that the ISX-6 fits comfortably on a Remedy frame with the piggyback on the same side as the blue rebound knob and the piggyback on the rocker link. That's the only way it fits.

    This is a 09 shock (so it reads on the plastic bag) in 7.875"x2.25". So Manitou's webpage is incomplete.

    Now I'll have to wait God knows how long to get the mounting hardware from BeyondBikes (one of the sizes is out of stock at Universal), and then I'll have to wait even more for the trails to be rideable.

    Pics!!!!!
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  20. #20
    Nightmare on Lyrik st. VI
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    Damn it. Good thing you asked for the photos. I've put the shock on the bike again and the rocker touches the shock. I think it's still doable, since you'll have to shave only 2mm of the rocker, but bye bye warranty on the frame. I'll have to think about it, but most likely I'll return the shock. Damn



  21. #21
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    What about just getting your rp23 push'd and have them put on a smaller air can and possibly a bottom out bumper while they are at it? Not a cheap option but less expensive than a new shock.

  22. #22
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    I don't think the rp23 is worth pushing, for the use I want to give to the bike. I'm just going to get a DHX coil. At least I know it will fit.

  23. #23
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    Well, I've tuned the DHX Air at home. You simply put 2 mm thick rubber between outer and inner air sleeve, thus reducing the volume. Result: 35 PSI lower pressure, more sag and much much better performance. Never tried coil shock, but this must be quite close with almost 35 % of sag (Spesh Enduro bike). Of course, swaping the air canister is the optimal solution, but they don't make 222 mm ETE Float regular volume chamber.

    But beware to pick appropriate rubber - it can happen to turn in one with shock oil, although it is less likely to happen.

  24. #24
    MattSavage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvette
    Well, I've tuned the DHX Air at home. You simply put 2 mm thick rubber between outer and inner air sleeve, thus reducing the volume. Result: 35 PSI lower pressure, more sag and much much better performance. Never tried coil shock, but this must be quite close with almost 35 % of sag (Spesh Enduro bike). Of course, swaping the air canister is the optimal solution, but they don't make 222 mm ETE Float regular volume chamber.

    But beware to pick appropriate rubber - it can happen to turn in one with shock oil, although it is less likely to happen.

    Can you post a pic with the DHX on it?

    Thanks.
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  25. #25
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    Don't have it at the moment. The whole process is pictured below. Same shock, different bike. It's plain simple, remove the c-ring and outer air chamber, fill with rubber, close. Pump less, ride more :-)

    Rubber dimensions: 135 x 45 mm, 2 mm thickness (works for 222 mm ETE, don't know for other sizes though)






  26. #26
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    What a coincidence, I did this to my Remedy's RP23 today. I used plastic from a bottle (4 layers ~ 2mm). The appropriate dimensions for the RP23 that comes with the Remedy is 135mmx30mm.

  27. #27
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    So, has anyone tried a Fox DHX Air on their Remedy? Or any other air shock with a piggy back. What are the results? Does it bottom out less often?

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