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  1. #1
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    Last edited by rhysjenz; 08-24-2017 at 01:44 AM.

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    Geo charts here; https://ibb.co/cDczP5

    I could easily see myself riding the Scout, or the Sentinel, or the Smuggler! Hoping they do some demos down here in NZ, the L Scout looks pretty much perfect but I'm pretty keen to try the XL too (given that I could easily fit it with the short seat tube) to see how the really long reach feels. Wonder when we'll see them in carbon...

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    Wow, I know they say to stick with what you ride size wise, but I think being borderline between Large and Xtra Large I'd lean towards the Large. 500mm reach at 6'2" seems daunting.

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    Kinda what I thought, too, given what I have riding (XL specialized camber and L BMC TrailFox).

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    I guess it depends what you want, it's certainly nice to have the option of upsizing and it's easy enough to run a longer seat post of you don't. The XL numbers are getting up towards something like the Pole Evolink, so maybe daunting for people used to (or wanting to stick with) a more traditional fit, but not outside the realm of what's already being used and liked by some.

    I think it would be a wise move for Transition and their distributors to invest in a good demo fleet and get the bikes out there for people to ride. The long reach/wb and slack hta are probably going to frighten off a lot of traditionalists, the proof will be in the ride. It's great to see a mainstream company pushing the evolution of MTB geometry, but there are going to be a lot of people reluctant to lay down their cash without riding one first.

  6. #6
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    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes

    Truly pushing the envelope even against euro brands. Agree re demo fleet. I'm pretty sure I'd hate these for my local tight and twisties but I'm willing to be proven wrong.



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    To be clear, the Pole Evolink 140 with the 510mm reach and 1314mm wheelbase which has been doing the rounds of the review sites is a Large. Pole don’t make an XL 140 yet; however, the do make an XL on other models. Their XL’s come with a reach of 535mm (which would put a XL Evo 140 at a wheelbase of 1339).

    Pole and Transition have relatively similar sizing guidelines for each size (5’10” / 5’11 to 6.2” / 6’3” for a Large); therefore, whilst the SBG bikes are longer than previous models they are still somewhat shorted than the really progressive Euro bikes.

    I'm looking forward to seeing some reviews on the Sentinel; and the forum e-war around fork offset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Geo charts here; https://ibb.co/cDczP5

    I could easily see myself riding the Scout, or the Sentinel, or the Smuggler! Hoping they do some demos down here in NZ, the L Scout looks pretty much perfect but I'm pretty keen to try the XL too (given that I could easily fit it with the short seat tube) to see how the really long reach feels. Wonder when we'll see them in carbon...

    do have the link to the build kit?

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    I hope the new scout doesn't climb like a slacked out enduro bike with the 65 degree head angle

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcycleman View Post
    I hope the new scout doesn't climb like a slacked out enduro bike with the 65 degree head angle
    With the 77 degree seat tube angle and the short 37 degree fork offset it will climb like a champ. Your body weight will be in the perfect position to keep the front wheel from flopping around.


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    any talk about frame materials? these all look to be aluminum?

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    Also interesting that most have higher than average differentials between front and rear travel. Honestly I'm still not sure about the magic sauce of reduced offset I read folks talking about how it will quicken steering which is counter to what reducing offset does which is increase trail and as such slows steering. Perhaps they are referring to a specific aspect of steering and are not articulating it well.


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    Someone mentioned elsewhere the '18 bikes are all aluminum. Makes sense, as the mold-costs on carbon can be a problem for smaller companies. Especially as they are introducing several bikes and sizes shortly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khairul84 View Post
    do have the link to the build kit?
    Built kits were not posted. But they look like SRAM and Fox for the most part. I'd expect kits and cost to be pretty similar to what they have right now.

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    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes

    2018 Patrol Kinematics (green):

    *Rough estimate based on low resolution photo, using Linkage Design. Take this with a grain of salt.

    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes-screen-shot-2017-08-23-8.34.28-am.png
    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes-screen-shot-2017-08-23-8.29.44-am.png
    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes-screen-shot-2017-08-23-8.34.14-am.png
    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes-screen-shot-2017-08-23-8.34.05-am.png
    Last edited by geraldooka; 08-23-2017 at 11:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    Honestly I'm still not sure about the magic sauce of reduced offset I read folks talking about how it will quicken steering which is counter to what reducing offset does which is increase trail and as such slows steering.
    Bingo.

    Giant actually does the exact opposite, working with custom offset RockShox forks for their Reign (increased the offset over stock offerings). Giant states they felt a super slack bike performs better with increased offset.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Quote Originally Posted by kabaroo View Post
    any talk about frame materials? these all look to be aluminum?
    You can see the welds in the video at least all the frame are alloy.

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    Interesting they really flattened the LR curve here. Also much higher anti squat across the range. Pedals better? Maybe offset but longer travel and slacker head angle

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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Bingo.

    Giant actually does the exact opposite, working with custom offset RockShox forks for their Reign (increased the offset over stock offerings). Giant states they felt a super slack bike performs better with increased offset.
    Perhaps paired with a short stem this formula will work? Remains to be seen but I like companies that push things and I'll be keen to try it out when I can.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    Interesting they really flattened the LR curve here. Also much higher anti squat across the range. Pedals better? Maybe offset but longer travel and slacker head angle

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    Agreed I haven't run the other models through yet but given the travel differential (e.g. Scout) I would want more progressivity in the rear to balance the ride out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Giant actually does the exact opposite, working with custom offset RockShox forks for their Reign (increased the offset over stock offerings). Giant states they felt a super slack bike performs better with increased offset.
    Interesting, although relative to the new Trannys the Reign has shorter reach and comes with a longer stem (IIRC). I've only known one person who owned a Reign and he wasn't really a fan of it, and the front certainly did seem to flop around a bit on climbs (he loves his new carbon Trance now though).

    I'm purely speculating here, but Transition don't seem to be just testing the waters with this SBG thing, they're implementing it across their entire range of FS bikes [aside from the DH rig]. They're still a smaller business owned by the guys who run it and design the bikes, would they really bet their bread-and-butter on a concept that was just a gimmick? Obviously they're not going to suit everyone, but for people who like the way their current bikes ride they obviously feel that this is an improvement again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    2018 Patrol Kinematics (light green):

    Boosted Anti-squat
    Raised Brake Squat
    Raised Pedal-kickback
    Flattened out the Leverage Ratio
    I am not sure how you are generating your data, however it isn't accurate. Dropping pins on a photo in Linkage clearly isn't as accurate as data from CAD. We don't publish our internal graphs or data points, however here are a few bullet points to clarify...

    1) We have increased chainstay lengthening around sag a small amount for slightly firmer and more efficient pedaling.

    2) Overall chainstay lengthening has not increased, so there is no notable increase in pedal kickback.

    3) The V2 bikes are a small amount more progressive, not less. There is also shock tuning to take in to account. We know what aggressive riders want and we have tuned the bikes accordingly.

    We're looking forward to reviews of the new bikes getting published. It's also going to be great to share the demo experience with everyone, we have a lot planned and look forward to getting people on bikes. I would also make a note that our relative sizing has not changed. The increase in frame reach is a part of the SBG concept and if you rode a certain size in our last versions, the same size should still feel right for you. Don't be tempted to size down. Look for more news on the bikes to be released soon.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transition Bikes View Post
    I am not sure how you are generating your data, however it isn't accurate. Dropping pins on a photo in Linkage clearly isn't as accurate as data from CAD. We don't publish our internal graphs or data points, however here are a few bullet points to clarify...

    1) We have increased chainstay lengthening around sag a small amount for slightly firmer and more efficient pedaling.

    2) Overall chainstay lengthening has not increased, so there is no notable increase in pedal kickback.

    3) The V2 bikes are a small amount more progressive, not less. There is also shock tuning to take in to account. We know what aggressive riders want and we have tuned the bikes accordingly.

    We're looking forward to reviews of the new bikes getting published. It's also going to be great to share the demo experience with everyone, we have a lot planned and look forward to getting people on bikes. I would also make a note that our relative sizing has not changed. The increase in frame reach is a part of the SBG concept and if you rode a certain size in our last versions, the same size should still feel right for you. Don't be tempted to size down. Look for more news on the bikes to be released soon.

    Thanks!
    Thanks for the details. Dropping pins in Linkage Design is exactly how I'm doing it (on low resolution photos). I would expect it isn't as accurate as the manufacturers CAD software (hopefully folks realize that). I'll add a caveat to my post as such to make that explicit.
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    Very cool and sounds much better thanks for posting here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Interesting, although relative to the new Trannys the Reign has shorter reach and comes with a longer stem (IIRC). I've only known one person who owned a Reign and he wasn't really a fan of it, and the front certainly did seem to flop around a bit on climbs (he loves his new carbon Trance now though).

    I'm purely speculating here, but Transition don't seem to be just testing the waters with this SBG thing, they're implementing it across their entire range of FS bikes [aside from the DH rig]. They're still a smaller business owned by the guys who run it and design the bikes, would they really bet their bread-and-butter on a concept that was just a gimmick? Obviously they're not going to suit everyone, but for people who like the way their current bikes ride they obviously feel that this is an improvement again.
    Speaking for myself, I don't think its a gimmick. I think its a design philosophy, one they (as you alluded to) clearly believe in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    Someone mentioned elsewhere the '18 bikes are all aluminum. Makes sense, as the mold-costs on carbon can be a problem for smaller companies. Especially as they are introducing several bikes and sizes shortly.
    '19 will probably introduce a few carbon variants of those models

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transition Bikes View Post
    I am not sure how you are generating your data, however it isn't accurate. Dropping pins on a photo in Linkage clearly isn't as accurate as data from CAD. We don't publish our internal graphs or data points, however here are a few bullet points to clarify...

    1) We have increased chainstay lengthening around sag a small amount for slightly firmer and more efficient pedaling.

    2) Overall chainstay lengthening has not increased, so there is no notable increase in pedal kickback.

    3) The V2 bikes are a small amount more progressive, not less. There is also shock tuning to take in to account. We know what aggressive riders want and we have tuned the bikes accordingly.

    We're looking forward to reviews of the new bikes getting published. It's also going to be great to share the demo experience with everyone, we have a lot planned and look forward to getting people on bikes. I would also make a note that our relative sizing has not changed. The increase in frame reach is a part of the SBG concept and if you rode a certain size in our last versions, the same size should still feel right for you. Don't be tempted to size down. Look for more news on the bikes to be released soon.

    Thanks!
    I wonder why the same CS length across all sizes...
    Doesn't the increased front centre need longer rear end in order to have a proper weight distribution...
    I can understand the cost issue with carbon due to different molds, but with aluminum it shouldn't be as bad...

    For which frame size is the CS length optimized?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transition Bikes View Post
    I am not sure how you are generating your data, however it isn't accurate. Dropping pins on a photo in Linkage clearly isn't as accurate as data from CAD. We don't publish our internal graphs or data points, however here are a few bullet points to clarify...

    3) The V2 bikes are a small amount more progressive, not less. There is also shock tuning to take in to account. We know what aggressive riders want and we have tuned the bikes accordingly.
    Thanks for the clarification. I'm hoping the graphs are also incorrect about the initial digression?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcycleman View Post
    I hope the new scout doesn't climb like a slacked out enduro bike with the 65 degree head angle
    Bear in mind the shortish rear travel on the scouts. My original Limeade Scout is running a 150mm Pike and it still climbs impressively considering the lack of finesse of the owner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    Bear in mind the shortish rear travel on the scouts. My original Limeade Scout is running a 150mm Pike and it still climbs impressively considering the lack of finesse of the owner.
    Yeah , I'm more worried about the front end wandering and flapping about in contrast to the quick steering model we have. I guess time will tell

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    It's great to see a mainstream company pushing the evolution of MTB geometry, but there are going to be a lot of people reluctant to lay down their cash without riding one first.
    Transition has certainly grown the last few year but probably the last word I would use to describe them would be "mainstream".

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    Yeah they're no Giant or Specialized, but they're a lot more mainstream than the likes of Nicolai or Pole who are really pushing the evolution of the long geometry. I definitely didn't mean it in a derogatory sense too.

    And their idea of promotional material certainty is not mainstream!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    Thanks for the details. Dropping pins in Linkage Design is exactly how I'm doing it (on low resolution photos). I would expect it isn't as accurate as the manufacturers CAD software (hopefully folks realize that). I'll add a caveat to my post as such to make that explicit.
    Unfortunately no I don't think that people realize that linkage design "graphs" aren't accurate. Anytime a new fs design is released (no matter how complex the linkage) you see these analyses on Pinkbike and here of people screaming "well it must be horrible/perfect" based on a few photos and guessing at the pivot points....

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhsavery View Post
    Unfortunately no I don't think that people realize that linkage design "graphs" aren't accurate. Anytime a new fs design is released (no matter how complex the linkage) you see these analyses on Pinkbike and here of people screaming "well it must be horrible/perfect" based on a few photos and guessing at the pivot points....
    Yup, caveat added. I should note I wasn't making a judgement of the kinematics since that really is up to the individual rider. For me personally they look pretty good.

    Regarding the efficacy of the app and methodology of mapping to a photograph I agree it's not going to be terribly accurate. However if I had a real bike in front of me I could take measurements to within mm accuracy and plug those numbers directly into the app. If we assume the mathematics are correct in the app (something I couldn't confirm) then I think it would be safe to conclude that it would be an accurate analysis of the kinematics.


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    There's now an official press release up on Vital incl. geometry, build kits & pricing:

    Complete 2018 Transition Patrol, Scout, Smuggler & Sentinel Specs Released - Mountain Bikes Press Releases - Vital MTB

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    I wonder if the handling will be funky if you run a standard offset fork on them? I see they're selling a frame only option which is a valid consideration for me, but don't want to create a Frankenstein.

    Happy to see they've gone with better bearings and gone external routing for the rear brake. Both very welcome IMO.

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    I wish they would bring back the Trans Am, maybe the updated version renamed GTO. Double - Triple, why not?

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    Alloy for the same price as competitor's carbon setups? Count me out this year, time to go demo some others soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRdWarrior View Post
    Alloy for the same price as competitor's carbon setups? Count me out this year, time to go demo some others soon.
    Heh? Like what? Maybe I'm turning into a dentist but I actually thought prices were super reasonable. $2k frame/shock? $4k for a pretty solid "weekend warrior" type of build. Nice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRdWarrior View Post
    Alloy for the same price as competitor's carbon setups? Count me out this year, time to go demo some others soon.
    Which competitor has a carbon frame for $2k
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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    Prices aren't horrible but when compared to other carbon builds for around $4k-5K the Alloy (Patrol) builds, XO1 and GX would be at least $1,000 more I'm guessing. I'm currently looking at the Mach 5.5, SB6, and maybe a 3rd Carbon bike offering a Fox 36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRdWarrior View Post
    Prices aren't horrible but when compared to other carbon builds for around $4k-5K the Alloy (Patrol) builds, XO1 and GX would be at least $1,000 more I'm guessing. I'm currently looking at the Mach 5.5, SB6, and maybe a 3rd Carbon bike offering a Fox 36.
    Patrol XO1 / Fox 36 build....$5000
    Mach 5.5 XO1 / Fox 36 build.... $7100

    SB6 complete through big box store (e.g. Competitive) is not a terrible price, but frame only $3500 compared to $2k for an alloy patrol....come ahhhhhn.

    Back on topic....anyone find full photos of the other colors Transition will be offering?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithified View Post
    Back on topic....anyone find full photos of the other colors Transition will be offering?
    If you check out the scrolling galleries, you can see some of the other colors here: https://nsmb.com/articles/transition...bg-first-ride/

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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    I wonder if the handling will be funky if you run a standard offset fork on them? I see they're selling a frame only option which is a valid consideration for me, but don't want to create a Frankenstein.
    I'm wondering that too.

    Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have absolutely no desire to go to 12sp/Eagle, I don't need the range and I certainly don't need the added cost of replacing cassettes! Disappointing to not see a Shimano/XT option, Santa Cruz are the same (and I'm sure there's others too), good to see some brands [like Pivot, for example] still offering builds from both component manufacturers. This makes frame-only the only option for me, but obviously you need to get the right fork offset to make the SBG magic happen. Kinda surprised they're not offering a frame and fork package given that it's a key component of the SBG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Kinda surprised they're not offering a frame and fork package given that it's a key component of the SBG.
    True. I hadn't thought of that, but a frame and fork package would have been ideal. However looking at the cost of the frame + cost of a good fork and you're getting pretty close to one of the cheaper complete builds. They don't have the same quality fork though I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    True. I hadn't thought of that, but a frame and fork package would have been ideal. However looking at the cost of the frame + cost of a good fork and you're getting pretty close to one of the cheaper complete builds. They don't have the same quality fork though I guess.
    We are stocking a variety of forks from both RockShox and Fox to be sold together with framesets. We have the new Lyrik RCT3 and Pike RCT3 as well as Yari and the updated Revelation forks in spec travel and offset configurations. We also have the Fox Performance Elite spec forks from the XO1 builds as well as Grip damper Performance series forks from Fox. Lots of options!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transition Bikes View Post
    We are stocking a variety of forks from both RockShox and Fox to be sold together with framesets. We have the new Lyrik RCT3 and Pike RCT3 as well as Yari and the updated Revelation forks in spec travel and offset configurations. We also have the Fox Performance Elite spec forks from the XO1 builds as well as Grip damper Performance series forks from Fox. Lots of options!
    Great to hear that will make it much easier to transition over...
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    **** yeah!

    Really luring after the sentinel, as it is the blue I first loved for the smuggler but never bought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transition Bikes View Post
    We are stocking a variety of forks from both RockShox and Fox to be sold together with framesets. We have the new Lyrik RCT3 and Pike RCT3 as well as Yari and the updated Revelation forks in spec travel and offset configurations. We also have the Fox Performance Elite spec forks from the XO1 builds as well as Grip damper Performance series forks from Fox. Lots of options!
    Nice! Thats awesome to hear.

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    Can anyone tell me with the geo changes on these new bike. I see reach is longer but how does it effect seating positon compared to pedals.

    My XL Smuggler I have to have seat back as far as it will go to get my knees in line with pedals to stop knee pain on long climbs. Basically by dropping string from my knee and ligning up with crank end.
    Will this be same on new version of bikes? Just not sure how sizing change effects back end of bike between seat and pedals.

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    Reach is what you feel when standing on the pedals.

    Effective top tube length is what you feel while seated.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Anyone seen shock length data for the 2018 lineup?
    Especially for Sentinel and Patrol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    I wonder if the handling will be funky if you run a standard offset fork on them?...
    Good question.

    If you kept everything else the same and simply used a fork w/ longer offset instead of the shorter offsets spec'd for SBG, then fork trail values decrease as a result.

    Based on bike geo and fork offset specs, you can calculate trail using an online trail calculator, to get trail values:

    2018 SBG Patrol (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w/ 37mm offset): Trail = 133mm
    2018 SBG Patrol (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 127mm
    2016 Patrol (65 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 Lyric w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 120mm

    2018 SBG Scout (65 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w/ 37mm offset): Trail = 126mm
    2018 SBG Scout (65 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 120mm
    2016 Scout (67 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 106mm

    2018 SBG Sentinel (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w 43mm offset): Trail = 126mm
    2018 SBG Sentinel (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w 51mm offset): Trail = 117mm

    2018 SBG Smuggler (66 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w 43mm offset): Trail = 112mm
    2018 SBG Smuggler (66 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w 51mm offset): Trail = 103mm
    2016 Smuggler (67.5 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w 51mm offset): Trail = 93mm


    Longer trail is associated with more stability at higher speed, but usually at the expense of requiring more rider effort to change steering direction, which can make steering feel slow or sluggish at slower speeds.

    Not sure if I've got this right, but after reading the description of SBG from original poster's Vital link, it sounds like Transition compensates for slow speed handling (created by increased fork trail) by pushing the rider's center of gravity over the front tire by combination of steeper seat tube angle and shorter stem:

    "The shorter fork offset brings the front axle more rearward and under the rider which further increases front tire traction. This works in unison with the shorter stem length to provide a more direct steering input and dramatically enhances connectivity to what is happening with the front wheel. The shorter offset also brings the front wheel more under the rider which balances the effects of a slacker head angle."

    In a nutshell, if you bought an SBG frame and used a fork w/ a more traditional longer offset, then you will still have a longish trail value that will provide good high speed stability.

    And if being able to shift more weight over the front wheel is the key to compensating for whatever sluggish steering a longer fork trail creates, then you'd simply have to lean into the front end by just a few more mm--essentially whatever the difference is between your traditional fork's offset and the shorter offset of the newer forks spec'd for SBG frames.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by slo_rider View Post
    Good question.

    If you kept everything else the same and simply used a fork w/ longer offset instead of the shorter offsets spec'd for SBG, then fork trail values decrease as a result.

    Based on bike geo and fork offset specs, you can calculate trail using an online trail calculator, to get trail values:

    2018 SBG Patrol (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w/ 37mm offset): Trail = 133mm
    2018 SBG Patrol (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 127mm
    2016 Patrol (65 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 Lyric w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 120mm

    2018 SBG Scout (65 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w/ 37mm offset): Trail = 126mm
    2018 SBG Scout (65 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 120mm
    2016 Scout (67 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w/ 42mm offset): Trail = 106mm

    2018 SBG Sentinel (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w 43mm offset): Trail = 126mm
    2018 SBG Sentinel (64 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w 51mm offset): Trail = 117mm

    2018 SBG Smuggler (66 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2018 fork w 43mm offset): Trail = 112mm
    2018 SBG Smuggler (66 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w 51mm offset): Trail = 103mm
    2016 Smuggler (67.5 deg HA, 2.4" tire, 2016 fork w 51mm offset): Trail = 93mm


    Longer trail is associated with more stability at higher speed, but usually at the expense of requiring more rider effort to change steering direction, which can make steering feel slow or sluggish at slower speeds.

    Not sure if I've got this right, but after reading the description of SBG from original poster's Vital link, it sounds like Transition compensates for slow speed handling (created by increased fork trail) by pushing the rider's center of gravity over the front tire by combination of steeper seat tube angle and shorter stem:

    "The shorter fork offset brings the front axle more rearward and under the rider which further increases front tire traction. This works in unison with the shorter stem length to provide a more direct steering input and dramatically enhances connectivity to what is happening with the front wheel. The shorter offset also brings the front wheel more under the rider which balances the effects of a slacker head angle."

    In a nutshell, if you bought an SBG frame and used a fork w/ a more traditional longer offset, then you will still have a longish trail value that will provide good high speed stability.

    And if being able to shift more weight over the front wheel is the key to compensating for whatever sluggish steering a longer fork trail creates, then you'd simply have to lean into the front end by just a few more mm--essentially whatever the difference is between your traditional fork's offset and the shorter offset of the newer forks spec'd for SBG frames.
    Great effort slo_rider, thanks. Wheel flop also increases with the new geometry it will be interesting to see how that feels on the trail. The longer trail figures would work better with a shorter stem so this could be pretty darn interesting!


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    I didn't even plan on a new bike until I moved to TN and have been wishing for something a little livelier and snappier in the tight riding we have here. Now I'm really churning over a Sentinel or new Smuggler.

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    I personally don't buy the whole concept that longer offset / reduced trail unequivocally increases handling speed. While it may increase steering sensitivity in a simple way just using your hands, Shorter offset also reduces wheel base and puts the front wheel underneath the rider more. If you think about handling the bike more wholeistically and combining with the other geo changes it's not clear to me shorter offset, shorter wheel base and longer trail necessarily mean slower handling. I would guess the opposite which is what Transition is saying I believe

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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    I personally don't buy the whole concept that longer offset / reduced trail unequivocally increases handling speed. While it may increase steering sensitivity in a simple way just using your hands, Shorter offset also reduces wheel base and puts the front wheel underneath the rider more. If you think about handling the bike more wholeistically and combining with the other geo changes it's not clear to me shorter offset, shorter wheel base and longer trail necessarily mean slower handling. I would guess the opposite which is what Transition is saying I believe

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    Not to mention the fact that these bikes will have dynamic trail figures on actual rides. I think you are right that it takes more than just the trail figure and how it is arrived at to determine how the bike handles. In the case of these new Transitions they not only have higher trail figures but also longer wheelbases (which typically means harder to turn around corners) and slacker head angles (which typically means less reactive to steering input). I presume they are specified with shorter stems which will speed up the steering and we may end up with a goldilocks combination. I have never ridden a bike slacker than 65deg and the 65 was only for a brief time. My current ride is at 66.5 and personally I found a 40mm and 780mm bar too twitchy for comfort. If I could get a slacker head angle but maintain a "calmer" steering behavior I'd be all over it!

    Ultimately it will take riding them to find what exactly the effects are.


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    Really looking forward to trying these bikes out, reviews of the newer reduced offset bikes like these and the Whyte s150 all seem terrific. I emailed transition about when they would be available to demo out of hq and got the following response:

    Thanks for reaching out! Always appreciate the support!
    We don't have a set in stone ETA on when we'll have the Demo Fleet updated, but I'm thinking sometime in mid October would be a safe bet.

    Cheers.
    TBC

  61. #61
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    Any pictures of the Patrol Panderosa green color?? I like the price and geo may have to call my local dealer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    I personally don't buy the whole concept that longer offset / reduced trail unequivocally increases handling speed. While it may increase steering sensitivity in a simple way just using your hands, Shorter offset also reduces wheel base and puts the front wheel underneath the rider more. If you think about handling the bike more wholeistically and combining with the other geo changes it's not clear to me shorter offset, shorter wheel base and longer trail necessarily mean slower handling. I would guess the opposite which is what Transition is saying I believe

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    I'm not disagreeing with you...

    Fork trail is just one of the variables affecting steering input and feel.

    Head angles for trail, all-mountain, and enduro bikes gotten slacker over the past few years.

    Larger wheel diameters have become more popular as well.

    Both slacker head angles and larger wheel diameters increase fork trail, which in turn requires a little more effort from the rider to change direction of the front wheel.

    So I'm not surprised that riders for these bikes have responded by adopting shorter stems and wider bars to give them more leverage over the steering, in order to compensate for one of the effects of increased fork trail.

    And overall bike handling is affected by other variables in addition to fork trail, head angle, and wheel diameter--wheelbase, bottom bracket height, rear-center/front-center geometry and rider weight distribution between the axles, frame stiffness, wheel stiffness, and suspension quality all combine to affect how a bike handles on the trail.

    It sounds like Lars and the rest of the Transition team have played around with small things many of us typically don't pay much attention to (fork trail? fore/aft weight distribution?), and have tweaked these variables to improve bike handling for the kinds of trails they ride.

  63. #63
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    I really like what Transition has been doing in regards of research and forward thinking in bike geometry.
    Nice to see them progress.

    Most of this trend has come from Europe, Mojo's Chris Porter and Cesar Rojo.

    The one think ommited from Porter's research in Transition geometry is the CS length.

    The longer the front centre gets, the longer CS should be in order to optimize the weight distribution.

    I would like to ask, what is the Transitions reason to keep the CS the same across all sizes?


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    Good job! Patrol vs. Patrol

    Curious how the new bikes compare? I had the opportunity to do some back-to-back testing of the new and old Patrol. I think you guys will be intrigued by the results:

    Transition Patrol vs. Patrol - See How the 2018 Compares

    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes-s1600_patrolvspatrol_812029.jpg
    Last edited by bikinbeast; 08-25-2017 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Patrol vs. Patrol

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    http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories...jpg?1503617539

    Does anyone think this cable routing will be an issue? IF you drop a chain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delarosa View Post
    http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories...jpg?1503617539

    Does anyone think this cable routing will be an issue? IF you drop a chain.
    Is that the intended routing? Looks like its rubbing a bit as well, plus it would interfer with a lot of chain guides?

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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    Is that the intended routing? Looks like its rubbing a bit as well, plus it would interfer with a lot of chain guides?
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...03783571624210

    looks like it according to that first picture of the sentinel. The link above is a Patrol so looks like they are all routed this way!

  68. #68
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew8404 View Post
    Any pictures of the Patrol Panderosa green color?? I like the price and geo may have to call my local dealer.

    Pictures of all the color options are up on the Transition website now.

  69. #69
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    [QUOTE=badbrew;13308154]


    Pictures of all the color options are up on the Transition website now.
    Transition Bikes

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    If I had any money right now I would throw it at the nearest Transition dealer that could get me a Scout!

  71. #71
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    Very sweet batch of frames. I am tempted to add to my transition collection. Wish they had carbon but I understand the challenges there. Their alloy is probably better anyway, more control than being some small batch order at a mega factory in SE China

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    I don't even need a demo ride. Asked the LBS today to order/'get my name on the list' for a Patrol frame and Fox 36 Elite fork. Going to build it up from there and I'm fired up! Towards the end of October is what I was told for shipment.

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    I am debating with myself whether I should order a 2018 Patrol to have it as my one and only bike. My main concern is the really slack head angle since due my average skills I don't think that I can turn it as easy as my current bike that has a 66 head angle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpgalanis View Post
    I am debating with myself whether I should order a 2018 Patrol to have it as my one and only bike. My main concern is the really slack head angle since due my average skills I don't think that I can turn it as easy as my current bike that has a 66 head angle.
    I have my eye on a 2018 Scout that will have a 65 degree HA! My current ride is a Nomad 3 that has a 65 degree HA!

    I sold my Scout to by that Nomad. If this SBG thing works as described that Scout will be amazing.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is don't look at the numbers and make a decision. SBG is going to blur the lines of what you expect from "normal" geo figures.

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    That is correct.

    My current bike however is a Mondraker Crafty XR+ with all the forward geometry goodies (495 reach for a large size plus a 44 offset) but with "only" a 66 - 66.5 head angle so the jump to 64 would be a big one.

    Considering that there is no way I can demo the new Patrol before ordering it here in Greece I will have to just take a gamble and see how it works.

    The only thing that I am afraid however is that when I tried a -2 degrees angleset I really hated it but I guess it is one thing to alter a bikes geometry and another one to ride one that it is designed to have such a slack geometry form the factory.

    Any news when the new frames will be available? End of October?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpgalanis View Post

    The only thing that I am afraid however is that when I tried a -2 degrees angleset I really hated it but I guess it is one thing to alter a bikes geometry and another one to ride one that it is designed to have such a slack geometry form the factory.
    I don't know the geo figures on the Mondraker......you should compare geo charts side by side and see where the differences are.

    When you watch all the videos, listen to the reviews.......all the super slack HA's don't take the liveliness out of the bikes front end.....we shall see. My Scout with the 67 HA was one of the most poppy/lively/flickable bikes I have owned........I have to try the SBG to believe the hype.

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    Me too. For the time being I will wait for some reviews but most probably they will be positive anyway I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpgalanis View Post
    Me too. For the time being I will wait for some reviews but most probably they will be positive anyway I guess.
    I cant remember reading a negative review from one of the "major" publications.......I read every review on the Scout when I was looking for info. Pinkbike's review was absolutely spot on. Every thing they said was true.

  79. #79
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    Agreed... I don't find mag reviews terribly insightful I'm afraid. Theres no magic here though, its just geometry. If you can set your bike up to match the figures or borrow/rent someones that is similar it will give you an idea about the nature of the ride. About the only thing you wouldn't be able to do is match the fork offset (for now, though I suspect this will change) which may be the ingredient that brings it all together.
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    Hi all,

    I manage to understand most of the SBG philosophy but one point is not so clear to me so maybe you can help.

    How do you think the SBG helps the climbing characteristics across the range?
    and for the Sentinel in particular?

    the Sentinel (size L) has a slack 64 HA, Steep 76.3 STA, long wheelbase (1247) and reach (475)
    I am not a strong rider and I love more technical descents than climbing up hill (i'm sure most of us are like this) but where I live, to get to those descents I need to climb, so when I picture it in my mind to climb with the new SBG geometry, I think it will be very hard to climb with

    what do you think?

  81. #81
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    I think the steeper seat angle (along with the suspension) will help it on techy climbs, the only downside possibly being really tight turns when the length of the wheelbase may be a factor. On the fire roads, don't think it really matters either way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alonmil View Post
    Hi all,

    I manage to understand most of the SBG philosophy but one point is not so clear to me so maybe you can help.

    How do you think the SBG helps the climbing characteristics across the range?
    and for the Sentinel in particular?

    the Sentinel (size L) has a slack 64 HA, Steep 76.3 STA, long wheelbase (1247) and reach (475)
    I am not a strong rider and I love more technical descents than climbing up hill (i'm sure most of us are like this) but where I live, to get to those descents I need to climb, so when I picture it in my mind to climb with the new SBG geometry, I think it will be very hard to climb with

    what do you think?
    If I understand SBG they are trying to center you on the bike. This make it much easier to put weight on the front. Kevin and Lars talk about this specifically. That's the whole idea, despite the slaaaaaaack HA's it easier to keep the front planted, usually the opposite with slack HA bikes. If the claim is true it should climb very well.......we hope!

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    I spent 2 full seasons on an aluminum Patrol (over 300 riding days), size XL.

    I recently got a chance to spend a morning on the new SBG Patrol (also an XL). Climbing up and charging down. No shuttling, 1500 vertical feet of steep singletrack climbing with several tight turns.

    The new SBG Patrol clearly climbs better. A combination of steeper seat angle, slightly different suspension kinematics, and a newer generation of shock.. ...the total package just climbs noticeably better. And the rear end of the bike is stiffer.

    Comments seem to express concern about added reach, but it doesn't change the size/feel of the cockpit. The extra reach is offset by the steeper seat angle, so the effective top tube (and thus the cockpit size) is almost exactly the same.

    And yes, the SBG Patrol is a ripper on the descents.

    It seems that in addition to doing their research on the geometry, the guys at Transition made a list of every little quibble that anyone ever had about tiny details on the Patrol, and made sure that they checked them off as they updated the bike. Very well done.

  84. #84
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    In addition to the Sentinel I'm also interested in the Vanquish. No news on SBG hardtails (or whether they think it makes sense)? Looking at the Honzo as well.

    Anyone see frame and/or complete weights for the SBG bikes?
    "babies don't drink coors" - del norte

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    Quote Originally Posted by uberstein View Post
    Comments seem to express concern about added reach, but it doesn't change the size/feel of the cockpit. The extra reach is offset by the steeper seat angle, so the effective top tube (and thus the cockpit size) is almost exactly the same.
    I'm hoping that the opposite is true - at least for out of the seat riding. I own a medium Patrol now, but find it just too short I'm out of the seat. I'm hoping the new longer reach versions are more compatible with my body size.

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    Transition 2018 SBG Bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    I'm hoping that the opposite is true - at least for out of the seat riding. I own a medium Patrol now, but find it just too short I'm out of the seat. I'm hoping the new longer reach versions are more compatible with my body size.
    Been following the news and ride impressions trickling in - really curious about the new Scout.

    Anyway, as far as reach; as that number is the horizontal distance from BB to top of head tube, out of saddle the cockpit should be a little more roomy. Of course slacker head angle and shorter stem factor in, but the math can be worked out. 18mm longer reach, 10mm shorter stock stem. And a bit more lost in slightly slacker head angle, but overall slightly longer when standing it would appear.
    Last edited by GT5050; 08-28-2017 at 08:33 PM.

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    if the 2018 Patrol X01 build is a sub 30 lb. weight I may consider selling my DH bike and my trail to get one all arounder. I do 50% park riding and 50% technical trail riding and this seems like a good fit.

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    Does anyone know the rim width of the E13 on the Smuggler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecibis View Post
    if the 2018 Patrol X01 build is a sub 30 lb. weight I may consider selling my DH bike and my trail to get one all arounder. I do 50% park riding and 50% technical trail riding and this seems like a good fit.
    With a coil?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbunnys View Post
    Does anyone know the rim width of the E13 on the Smuggler.
    28mm internal width.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transition Bikes View Post
    I am not sure how you are generating your data, however it isn't accurate. Dropping pins on a photo in Linkage clearly isn't as accurate as data from CAD. We don't publish our internal graphs or data points, however here are a few bullet points to clarify...

    1) We have increased chainstay lengthening around sag a small amount for slightly firmer and more efficient pedaling.

    2) Overall chainstay lengthening has not increased, so there is no notable increase in pedal kickback.

    3) The V2 bikes are a small amount more progressive, not less. There is also shock tuning to take in to account. We know what aggressive riders want and we have tuned the bikes accordingly.

    We're looking forward to reviews of the new bikes getting published. It's also going to be great to share the demo experience with everyone, we have a lot planned and look forward to getting people on bikes. I would also make a note that our relative sizing has not changed. The increase in frame reach is a part of the SBG concept and if you rode a certain size in our last versions, the same size should still feel right for you. Don't be tempted to size down. Look for more news on the bikes to be released soon.

    Thanks!
    Great to see you guys engaging/entertaining the crowd.

    Really cool what you are doing (pushing the envelope) and how you are doing it (not as a marketing ploy, but rather to bring us better bikes).


    Will these bikes play well with coil dampers?

    I'm most interested in the Sentinel, though all the new bikes look killer.


    Can you comment on how the SBG handles the slower, techy stuff? I'm use to riding a 5-6" travel AM rig on our trails but, despite the reasoning behind SBG, the numbers on your bike suggest it might be a handful. We've got AM terrain where the ups are as tough as the downs.

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    @Transition Bikes
    Will you have the new SBG bikes at Pisgah Fest in October? Really hoping to check some out!

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    Anyone has been thinking of converting their old scout/smug/patrol with sbg-like technology?

    Since lars was running the a smuggler test mule with -2° angle set and a fox 36 with 26" csu, the feeling shouldn't be far from what they've done with the new bikes.

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    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    After reading that review, the Sentinel is no longer on my list. Sounds like a great bike for Enduro racing and bike park/shuttling.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    After reading that review, the Sentinel is no longer on my list. Sounds like a great bike for Enduro racing and bike park/shuttling.
    Yes the WB being 2" longer than my current bike, which already feels long in our slow tight techy terrain makes me think it won't be a great choice for me, but Transition is close by so I will [hopefully] get to try one soonish and see for myself.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    After reading that review, the Sentinel is no longer on my list. Sounds like a great bike for Enduro racing and bike park/shuttling.
    But the new Scout... that could be the ticket!

    (And it's PB; I'm still going to try it to see how it works for an average rider)

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    After reading that review, the Sentinel is no longer on my list. Sounds like a great bike for Enduro racing and bike park/shuttling.
    Same. I suspected as much, and that sealed it. Sounds like a great bike, but it seems like the vast majority of reviews I read on PB are judged largely on riding in a bike park. For the rest of us, a shorter bike is more ideal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluidworks View Post
    For the rest of us, a shorter bike is more ideal.
    If you want a little less travel and not so slack, how about the Smuggler? 140mm front, 120mm rear, 66 degree head angle sounds right on!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibsonlespaulspecial View Post
    If you want a little less travel and not so slack, how about the Smuggler? 140mm front, 120mm rear, 66 degree head angle sounds right on!
    Shorter WB, but not less travel.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

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