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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by playdead View Post
    "Why don't Hikers, motos, equestrians, skiers, snowmobilers,birdwatchers, hunters, trail runners, etc... all get along?"

    I just pictured all those groups at one party. Motos, hunters and bird watchers all in the same room... classic
    Invite rally car drivers to the party and see if they hang with remote control (RC) car drivers !

    Tennis players and table tennis players ...? WHO SAID PONG ?!

  2. #52
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    Like the argument, "Why can't surfers and fishermen get along"? I have been surfing and with a mile of open beach, a fisherman thinks the spot I'm surfing is the exact spot he wants to fish. Surfing is not allowed within 300 feet of a pier, but "idiot tourists" will wade right up beside a fishing pier and jerk on a fishing line. Will they sue when they get a treble hook embedded in their hand?
    Unfortunately, "slinging mud" seems to be something "younger" motorbikers like to do. Looks really "cool".... to them. As far as I know, Uwharrie, which is closest to me has "motorized" areas and MTB trails separate from each other.
    The story about the woman who moved in and then tried to get "everything" banned sounds like a woman in Greensboro, NC who called the Zoning Board to tell them that there where cows next door to her. She was told that was because she bought a home next to a farm.
    She wanted to live in the "country" but wanted "country" to confirm to her idea of "country", mot likely what she read in a "country living" magazine.

  3. #53
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    This has been a good thread to me. Thank you all who wrote their viewpoints whether I agree with them or not. To me, its good to see that some of us get along. I guess I'm not a typical user. I ride moto and mountainbike, hike, backpack, consider myself green, and my daughter loves to get out on a trail with a horse. I just wish people could work together rather than be divided like the US congress is now.

  4. #54
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    LOL, ''Why cant we all just get along'' maybe if your a rainbow chaser or a unicorn milker, its just not realistic, its never going to happen and its a stupid and ridiculous idea.

    carry on......
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cedarbranchbiker1 View Post
    The story about the woman who moved in and then tried to get "everything" banned sounds like a woman in Greensboro, NC who called the Zoning Board to tell them that there where cows next door to her. She was told that was because she bought a home next to a farm.
    She wanted to live in the "country" but wanted "country" to confirm to her idea of "country", mot likely what she read in a "country living" magazine.
    Yeah that type of stuff happens all the time. Many farm operations have actually been shut down due to idiots like that. If the farmers don't have proper protection, people can sue farms for breaking noise ordinances or smells that may cause "mental anguish". My town has designated itself a "right to farm" community. Means that if you move in and don't like the smell, noise, or whatever, you have no right to complain. This includes stuff that may break existing noise or odor ordinances, such as firing up a tracter at dawn, or spreading manure. This applies to existing operations only. If someone wanted to put in a brand new hog farm right near a residential neighborhood it could be stopped. Makes sense to me.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley View Post
    Because I could spend all day riding like a total jackwad and not nearly do as much trail damage as a moto can do in the space of 90 seconds.

    Just because they both have two wheels doesn't mean they should be grouped together. Adding a motor changes everything.
    You know you really should not make blanket statements didn't you ever complain about some punk riding his bicycle on your trails and tearing them up? I've been riding trails in my area with a motorcycle for 50 years and i could show you some of them and you would think it was just a deer trail! Like guns, the gun doesn't kill its the finger that pulls the trigger!
    “An adventure is misery and discomfort, relived in the safety of reminiscence.” Marco Polo

  7. #57
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    topcat, I see what you are saying. Some motorcycle trail riders are very conscientious about trail riding and not "tear up the trail". Unfortunately, there are those who like to see how much mud they can or are constantly "ripping through turns" and gigging big routs. MTB's just don't have the power to do that. The "speed factor" can be a problem when someone has just pedaled around a blind curve and a much faster motorbike comes around the curve really fast.
    In Uwharrie National Forest, there are special areas set aside for "motorized vehicles" while the MTBers have their own trail.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0pcat View Post
    You know you really should not make blanket statements didn't you ever complain about some punk riding his bicycle on your trails and tearing them up? I've been riding trails in my area with a motorcycle for 50 years and i could show you some of them and you would think it was just a deer trail! Like guns, the gun doesn't kill its the finger that pulls the trigger!
    Originally Posted by Berkley
    Because I could spend all day riding like a total jackwad and not nearly do as much trail damage as a moto can do in the space of 90 seconds.

    Just because they both have two wheels doesn't mean they should be grouped together. Adding a motor changes everything.
    I don't see Berkley's statement as blanket.
    I agree with you that it's possible to ride a moto on most MTB trails without damaging them.
    There are a couple of trials riders who use my trails to get to an area they like to ride. They are very respectful and careful on the trails. If it weren't for the deep lug marks in wet areas, I'd have a hard time telling they were there.
    I've also had several kilometres of similar trail completely destroyed by one pass of about 4 riders who didn't give a damn. If all moto riders were as respectful as you (or those trials guys) I would probably have a different opinion.
    I couldn't imagine it would be much fun to ride a dirt bike on my trails in a manner that wouldn't hurt them.
    I have a device that can access the total knowledge of man. I use it to look at pictures of cats and argue with strangers.

  9. #59
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    Back to the OP's original point, despite my previous rants.....

    So I was talking to the local land manager about ways to minimize moto impact in our local riding spot. The motorcycles have a legitimate loop they can ride, but it was poorly signed and the motorcycles ended up riding everywhere. So we discussed better signs and making some trail choke points to help guide them onto the trail they are supposed to be on. I think most try to follow the official ORV trail, they just get lost.

    So while discussing this he had a brainstorm. Apparently the federal RTP funds come with a certain percentage to be spent on motorized trails. Not as much as there is to be spent on non motorized trails, but the money is there. And since motos are currently only allowed in 3 Mass parks, there is very little competition for these funds, unlike competition for the non motorized trail money, which has about 80 parks fighting for it.

    So maybe combining forces with motos could be the way to go, at least to get that part of the forest fixed up. The motorcycles are allowed anyway, maybe we can snag some funding to do some trail repair projects. I'm thinking along the lines of rock armoring rutted areas then reclaiming the widened parts.

    We'll see if anything comes of it, I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen anytime soon, but it may be our best bet to repair some of the damage on our local moto trail, and hopefully restore it to a trail that mountain bikers would enjoy using as well.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by icecreamjay View Post
    Back to the OP's original point, despite my previous rants.....

    So I was talking to the local land manager about ways to minimize moto impact in our local riding spot. The motorcycles have a legitimate loop they can ride, but it was poorly signed and the motorcycles ended up riding everywhere. So we discussed better signs and making some trail choke points to help guide them onto the trail they are supposed to be on. I think most try to follow the official ORV trail, they just get lost.

    So while discussing this he had a brainstorm. Apparently the federal RTP funds come with a certain percentage to be spent on motorized trails. Not as much as there is to be spent on non motorized trails, but the money is there. And since motos are currently only allowed in 3 Mass parks, there is very little competition for these funds, unlike competition for the non motorized trail money, which has about 80 parks fighting for it.

    So maybe combining forces with motos could be the way to go, at least to get that part of the forest fixed up. The motorcycles are allowed anyway, maybe we can snag some funding to do some trail repair projects. I'm thinking along the lines of rock armoring rutted areas then reclaiming the widened parts.

    We'll see if anything comes of it, I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen anytime soon, but it may be our best bet to repair some of the damage on our local moto trail, and hopefully restore it to a trail that mountain bikers would enjoy using as well.

    This is why I started this thread. Moto's and MTBers can work together (maybe not in all situations) but in at least some it helps both parties. It also increases lines of communication which never hurts.

  11. #61
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    One reason could be that it's hard enough to get permission to build a non-motorized trail in most areas, let alone a motorized one. Teamng up with motorized users would probably hurt our ability to get trails approved.

    Another reason could be that motorcycle riders just don't seem very interested in building trails. Call them too busy, call them too lazy, call them what you will, they just don't seem interested where I come from, or very well organized. The local off road motorcycle group spends all it's time organizing rides and races. It could be that they don't think they'll ever be allowed to do anything so they don't bother to ask.

    FYI I rode and raced dirt bikes when I was younger, so I know what I'm talking about.
    I am not repeating myself I am not repeating myself!

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Sugar View Post
    FYI I rode and raced dirt bikes when I was younger, so I know what I'm talking about.

    Not trying to get into a fight, but how long ago was that. On the motorcycle forum I am on, we actually have trail advocacy sections in the regional forums. In Colorado off road vehicle riders worked to get a sticker program (a self tax) to put money into trail maintenance, and new building. We also have many groups (all privately funded) to work on trail advocacy, education, and maintenance including:

    Blue Ribbon Coalition (national)
    Colorado off highway coalition (state)
    American motorcycle association (national)
    Boulder county trail riders (local)
    Northern colorado trail riders (local)

    Thats just to name a few.

    I just want to be able to ride mountain bikes and motorcycles on the trails I love. I also want people to ride responsibly and educate people who may hurt our ability to access the trails.

  13. #63
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    To be honest, I'm not really sure what a joint effort between motorized and non-motorized trail users looks like in actual practice. In the part of BC I live, motorcycles are just now starting to become a significant issue. I feel like mountain bikers have finally just earned their place alongside hikers and others, and are now even being appreciated for all the work they have put into the trails that every user benefits from.

    I realize that motorcycles are a different beast altogether, yet still believe that their rejection in some areas is a little unfair, even if it can be justified by the footprint they leave.

    I would love to see the two user groups working together, but I don't think that it should be in the direction of shared trail systems. Honestly I don't like encounters with motor bikes on the trails that mountain bikers build for mountain bikes. But what is primary here is that we have an understanding relationship with ALL the groups that want to use the land we use, and this means we need to include the motor heads, whether we like it or not.

    I'm sure that there are more imaginative people out there that can see a positive direction we could take if motor bikers and mountain bikers worked together on some land use issues.

    For further reading, I've posted an article on my blog relating to this issue: Should Mountain Bikes Share the Trail With Motorcycles?
    "I am hard at work right now, you just can't tell because I'm wearing an apron!"

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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by matbar20 View Post
    For further reading, I've posted an article on my blog relating to this issue: Should Mountain Bikes Share the Trail With Motorcycles?
    Good read.

    The second guy you met was surely running a "trials tire" on the back, they are universally accepted as having 2-3 times as much traction as a "knobby".

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by matbar20 View Post
    I'm sure that there are more imaginative people out there that can see a positive direction we could take if motor bikers and mountain bikers worked together on some land use issues.

    For further reading, I've posted an article on my blog relating to this issue: Should Mountain Bikes Share the Trail With Motorcycles?
    I think the biggest thing is just trying to be courteous and respectful to each other. I ride my MTB about as much as I ride my motorcycle. I go to monthly meetings with my local forest service rangers to set up and work on trail maintenance projects. A lot of what can be worked on depends on the trail conditions. Some trails can be multiuse, some just can't be. I ride many moto legal single tracks that are great on motos and mountain bikes.

    Many motorcyclists feel they are under attack from mountain bikers. In a lot of cases people are trying to kick them off legal trails that they pioneered, built, and maintained. There is no better way to get people to go to war as you said. We call it poaching when you ride an illegal trail.

    Generally the people I ride with are highly educated, and care about the environment. Most of us also mountain bike, camp, hike, and backpack.

  16. #66
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    Your story reminds me of a conversation I had with an agency rep last Fall as we were discussing opening up a new trail we had spent the last couple years building. She was concerned about motorcycles getting on the trail and tearing it up and was considering constructing an elaborate barrier system to discourage motos from riding the trail. It has been my experience that the majority of throttle twisters are respectful of "No Motorized" signs and will leave those trails alone. I told her it wasn't worth the effort to build big ugly barriers and that we should just see how things go.

    I live in Colorado and we have what seem like endless miles of trail all over the state. I've seen first hand the damage that can be done by motorized recreation in places that are popular with the gas crowd. There are lots of shared use trails that I won't even bother pedaling anymore because they are so chewed up. But, it has been very rare that I have encountered a motorcycle rider on a trail that is marked as non-motorized. It has happened, and the times that I have encountered the motos, they were not causing any obvious damage. I can't say that every single motorcyle rider respects the trails, but I truly believe that almost all of them will only go where they are welcome.

    As described in your story, the power that is available to a motorcycle rider gives them the ability to trash a trail with just a few riders. That's the big difference in my mind. A well designed trail can withstand a ton of abuse from even the most negligent pedal powered rider, but a single, careless throttle twister can absolutely trash a trail without even trying. It is our experiences with the few careless a**holes that makes us wary of the whole crowd. I don't see that attitude changing.

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