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  1. #1
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    Traildoc - Unapproved or illegal trail construction?

    This is a serious question, if the Forest Service deems a trail you or others created to be illegal and closes it down for use. Working with the Forest Service, what obligation do you feel you or others have to return the soil back to it's original condition? If you or others feel no obligation to repair the land, would you or others think jail time and or fines are appropriate punishment for defacing the land?

  2. #2
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    Do NOT feed the monkey...
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

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    Tagged.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    Do NOT feed the monkey...
    Noel, this is not a troll post. I am interested in a response. We all like new trails and such, I have no issue with that! I am just thinking someone cuts a illegal trial and it gets closed off. Yet it is still been cut into the soil. Sure over time vegetation with return as mother nature tends to the earth. Anyone know what the Forest Service stance is on this? Is it simply block off the trail and let it return to it natural glory. They hold people liable for setting forest fires even if it was not intentional.

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    If it's done right, is singletrack much different than a game trail in terms of environmental impact? Of course, assuming the singletrack was done correctly is a big stretch most of the time.

  6. #6
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    You could argue that you create more resource damage by trying to naturalize a trail. But all trails are in a sense resource damage. Let's face it, we're not very good stewards of the land.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    If it's done right, is singletrack much different than a game trail in terms of environmental impact? Of course, assuming the singletrack was done correctly is a big stretch most of the time.
    I see a difference in the two types of trails you speak of.




  8. #8
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    64:

    Interesting thread, it will be interesting where it goes. Have you ever heard of the following trails: Hazard County, Green Dot, Blue Dot, UPS, MPS, LPS, Hog Heaven, Hog Wash, High on the Hog, Slim Shady, Made in the Shade, Lizardhead, Tunnel of Love, Braille, Lama, etc.?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    64:

    Interesting thread, it will be interesting where it goes. Have you ever heard of the following trails: Hazard County, Green Dot, Blue Dot, UPS, MPS, LPS, Hog Heaven, Hog Wash, High on the Hog, Slim Shady, Made in the Shade, Lizardhead, Tunnel of Love, Braille, Lama, etc.?
    Off topic, could you please respond to the topic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Off topic, could you please respond to the topic!
    I did you just don't get it yet, but others do who enjoy those trails know what I am getting at. Moab, Bend and Jackson Hole went through this painful process and now its Sedona's turn.
    Last edited by traildoc; 02-01-2013 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I did you just don't get it yet, but others do who enjoy those trails now
    Obviously you have no comprehension skills or simply are trying to redirect because you have no logical response to the original question.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Obviously you have no comprehension skills or simply are trying to redirect because you have no logical response to the original question.
    I made an amazing Chickpea curry last night. Shall I share it?

    (TD is a bot.)
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    I made an amazing Chickpea curry last night. Shall I share it?

    (TD is a bot.)
    Share it.

  14. #14
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    ibtb

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    If it's done right, is singletrack much different than a game trail in terms of environmental impact? Of course, assuming the game trail was done correctly is a big stretch most of the time.
    fify

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    The U.S. Forest Service is cracking down after bikers secretly cut up to 30 miles of trails in the Tahoe backcountry over the last decade.
    "It's a national problem," said Garrett Villanueva, engineer for the agency's trails program at Lake Tahoe. "Some places the problem is more pronounced than others."
    In North Carolina, four men were arrested in 2003 on suspicion of building an illegal bike trail in the Pisgah National Forest. They agreed to pay a fine, to accept an indefinite ban from the national forest and to take part in supervised trail work to avoid prosecution.
    Near San Francisco, three men were ordered to pay $34,360 in restitution and perform at least 200 hours of service after they pleaded guilty to destroying federal property to build an illegal bike trail in the Golden Gate National Recreation Area in 2001.

    One of the men was arrested again in 2008 on suspicion of building an illegal bike trail in China Camp State Park in San Rafael, Calif.
    In Colorado, the Forest Service recently closed a network of bike trails around the Telluride Ski Resort. Officials hope to see fewer illegal trails now that a private bike park is under construction there, said Judy Schutza, a district ranger in the Grand Mesa-Uncompahgre-Gunnison National Forest.

    At Tahoe, the Forest Service has cited six offenders this year and urged bikers to cooperate in building sanctioned trails. Offenders risk fines up to $5,000, six months in jail and restoration costs.
    What more do you need to know

    Illegal trail builders have/are putting a target on every MTB'rs back.

    The damage is done ... We now await the aftermath of such activities.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    What more do you need to know

    Illegal trail builders have/are putting a target on every MTB'rs back.

    The damage is done ... We now await the aftermath of such activities.
    I was just wondering if anyone attempts to repair the land and if any builder is liable for the cost? Might not be worth the effort to repair it I just don't; know. I made a call to the Red Rock Forest Supervisor's Office and the person provided me with a number to call in Flagstaff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    I was just wondering if anyone attempts to repair the land and if any builder is liable for the cost? Might not be worth the effort to repair it I just don't; know. I made a call to the Red Rock Forest Supervisor's Office and the person provided me with a number to call in Flagstaff.
    Droppin' the dime on somebody?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy_E View Post
    Droppin' the dime on somebody?
    Not at all. I am just curious on what the procedure is besides placing a few rocks at the end of a closed illegally built trail. I would never rat someone out. I am also curious if someone or group is liable for the illegal trail if they have been found to have constructed it. I know there have been some fines and land use bans. Some illegal trails have been adopted for public us! So if you're fineing and banning builders at what stage are you a person of interest or a person that has built a trail that might be adopted.

    My questions are not so much related to what TD has done or not done. Should not have placed his name in the title of this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Not at all. I am just curious on what the procedure is besides placing a few rocks at the end of a closed illegally built trail. I would never rat someone out. I am also curious if someone or group is liable for the illegal trail if they have been found to have constructed it. I know there have been some fines and land use bans. Some illegal trails have been adopted for public us! So if you're fineing and banning builders at what stage are you a person of interest or a person that has built a trail that might be adopted.

    My questions are not so much related to what TD has done or not done. Should not have placed his name in the title of this thread.
    Everything I've read says ... Yes they will be held liable.

    Ya gotta remember, the people who do this are typically in violation of Federal Laws, and if a problem becomes big enough, they (Judge/Prosecutor) won't be messing around.

  20. #20
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    I can't believe I am actually responding to this...

    Anyways, I'm just a bit curious about something. I am not questioning whether or not the user built trails are good. I'm sure they are great. I just wonder why one would play the victim if they built something on someone else's land for people to use, and get upset when they risk losing the ability to use said trails. I don't have the right to redecorate my neighbors yard so the rest of the community will enjoy driving by it more. I understand that they just got free labor for something professionally built, but that's not the point. It wasn't your land to mess with. I may not always agree with the politics of it all, but that is the system in place, and we all gotta live with that. The passion to build trails will always be appreciated (or at least it should be) but you can't get upset for trying to improve something that wasn't yours to improve, even if you know it's for the best interest of a good sized group.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tysonnemb View Post
    I can't believe I am actually responding to this...

    Anyways, I'm just a bit curious about something. I am not questioning whether or not the user built trails are good. I'm sure they are great. I just wonder why one would play the victim if they built something on someone else's land for people to use, and get upset when they risk losing the ability to use said trails. I don't have the right to redecorate my neighbors yard so the rest of the community will enjoy driving by it more. I understand that they just got free labor for something professionally built, but that's not the point. It wasn't your land to mess with. I may not always agree with the politics of it all, but that is the system in place, and we all gotta live with that. The passion to build trails will always be appreciated (or at least it should be) but you can't get upset for trying to improve something that wasn't yours to improve, even if you know it's for the best interest of a good sized group.
    But do 95% of those who drive through your neighborhood find your neighbor's yard to be an eyesore? If so, you should find some spare time to redecorate it. But be sure to do it on the hush-hush, at least until the project is complete. And then post up here about what a great job you did, and ask why none of us helped you break the law.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    But do 95% of those who drive through your neighborhood find your neighbor's yard to be an eyesore? If so, you should find some spare time to redecorate it. But be sure to do it on the hush-hush, at least until the project is complete. And then post up here about what a great job you did, and ask why none of us helped you break the law.
    Unfortunately for me, my yard is the 'better by comparison' yard. I make the neighbors yards look great! I kinda wish that I had a rouge landscaper in my neck of the woods.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    But do 95% of those who drive through your neighborhood find your neighbor's yard to be an eyesore? If so, you should find some spare time to redecorate it. But be sure to do it on the hush-hush, at least until the project is complete. And then post up here about what a great job you did, and ask why none of us helped you break the law.
    In doing said repair, my mower tossed a rock into the 8x8 front window. I now damage my neighbor's home, do I run and hide and not take responsibility for the damage? Even though I thought I was doing all my neighbors a favor in cleaning up the eyesore?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    In doing said repair, my mower tossed a rock into the 8x8 front window. I now damage my neighbor's home, do I run and hide and not take responsibility for the damage? Even though I thought I was doing all my neighbors a favor in cleaning up the eyesore?
    Was neighbor's boyfriend, let's call him X, also redecorating other neighbors' front yards? If so, then I would post up on www.landscapereview.com that I feel I was doing nothing wrong because others, including the boyfriend of the person whose front yard I redecorated, was doing the same thing. And therefore, two wrongs make a right. In addition, it's really bad design to place a 8X8 window in the path of a rock that could easily be tossed from a mower. One has to assume that if one has grass in the front yard, said grass would at some point need to be mowed. And there is a chance--due to high winds perhaps?--that a rock would fall into the lawn. And therefore, it's not the person's fault that the neighbor did not follow logical building standards.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Was neighbor's boyfriend, let's call him X, also redecorating other neighbors' front yards? If so, then I would post up on www.landscapereview.com that I feel I was doing nothing wrong because others, including the boyfriend of the person whose front yard I redecorated, was doing the same thing. And therefore, two wrongs make a right. In addition, it's really bad design to place a 8X8 window in the path of a rock that could easily be tossed from a mower. One has to assume that if one has grass in the front yard, said grass would at some point need to be mowed. And there is a chance--due to high winds perhaps?--that a rock would fall into the lawn. And therefore, it's not the person's fault that the neighbor did not follow logical building standards.
    I agree, but was cooking Curry while designing the layout.

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