Rock Garden

[bballr4567]

Very cool looking!! Love it.

[andysays-semperfi]

awesome work man coming from a fellow construction worker i can really apreciate the skill that went into that

[Metamorphic]

Is that really a "rock garden"?

To me rock garden brings to mind images of pointy tire cutting wheel traps that need to be ridden through just so to avoid damage and injury. That's more like a cobble stone pavement. Probably scare the wee out of the roadies.

[Skookum]

Originally Posted by Metamorphic

Is that really a "rock garden"?

To me rock garden brings to mind images of pointy tire cutting wheel traps that need to be ridden through just so to avoid damage and injury. That's more like a cobble stone pavement. Probably scare the wee out of the roadies.

Yeah well uhm.

Originally Posted by Skookum

But with the shape of the river rock, the variation makes for a nice bumpy cobblestone road effect we were looking for.

Since this trail is a race trail, speed is the primary factor in the decision.

The trail is built like a pump track, for best results use 26 inch wheeled hard tail slalom bike. After hauling ass flying off a few pumps/jumps we put in a rock garden with sharp jumbled rocks because it fits the ideal of what some think constitute a rock garden.

Nah...

It's funny but we've been told we're not building a real Dual Slalom trail, because it's too long, and that the features don't mirror each other in sequence, though we go to great lengths to equalize feature and experience out of sequence when we can't make it equal. Plus we have 3 sections of significant climb and we separate the trail 3 times. But you know what, when finished you will be able to run both lines on a bike with no brakes and no chain, and after 1100' we're only 1 second off in time.

So the name of the trail is Deuces Wild Slalom Course. We don't care if we don't fall under some guideline of what should or shouldn't be. We won't profess to be a Dual Slalom course, but people are already calling it that anyways.

My point in bringing this up is that it's just seems so dumb to have qualifications for things. i mean the approach should be just to ignore this part of what the popular thought for this stuff is. When it comes to creativity, if it works and is sustainable, why be limited by following unwritten guidelines.

It's pretty dumb, now the trail is becoming real popular are we to be the new standard? If you like it, feel free to steal what you like, but don't go around saying that this is how things "should" be. Ya know what i mean?

As far as how dialed our flow is, and how spot on our drainage is, well yah there is alot of good standards to emulate, but features and theme, that's where creativity should flourish.

Not trying to argue with you or anyone, just a little reflection on that.

[Ridnparadise]

Deuces Wild Slalom sounds like it may have the full house. More than 1 line = competition that cannot exist on singletrack. That track probably has more than 2 lines and that takes MTB to the next level. If your 12 year olds take to building.........

[mike_d_1583]

Originally Posted by Metamorphic

Is that really a "rock garden"?

To me rock garden brings to mind images of pointy tire cutting wheel traps that need to be ridden through just so to avoid damage and injury. That's more like a cobble stone pavement. Probably scare the wee out of the roadies.

I agree with how he did it. On a smooth course like that, you don't want to throw in a loose-rock garden. It totally changes the trail dynamics and difficulty level, and for riders expecting fast and flowy trails, loose rocks might cause inexperienced riders to fall. So yea, it's a rock garden, because it is composed of rocks and not dirt. There are different levels of difficulty and you want it to mesh with the rest of the trail.

Only thing I noticed was how wide the trail is, but you probably can't control that.
Keep up the great work though, I know how hard it can be to find, move, and position rocks. Not to mention idiots who don't appreciate your efforts to make it more enjoyable and diverse.

[w.white7]

Hate to grave dig, but you have to look at the type of people that ride at Duthie. On any given day 80 percent of the people are riding Xc trails and bikes, and the rest will be the freeride crowd. So while most people hear rock garden and think of a worlds track, most of the people riding this trail will probably have no clue about Hart or what the track at fort william looks like. There have been days that I go there and the lots full of cars, but the freeride areas are near empty.

[Skookum]

Originally Posted by w.white7

Hate to grave dig, but you have to look at the type of people that ride at Duthie. On any given day 80 percent of the people are riding Xc trails and bikes, and the rest will be the freeride crowd. So while most people hear rock garden and think of a worlds track, most of the people riding this trail will probably have no clue about Hart or what the track at fort william looks like. There have been days that I go there and the lots full of cars, but the freeride areas are near empty.

Sorry but i have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[arphaxhad]

You need some rocks? Come on down to Nor Cal



I think I see a spot on your garden where this would fit nicely!

[Eckstream1]

Originally Posted by sambs827

Oh yea, when your ranting you should prolly(probably) use good grammar and capitalization and stuff. it makes you seem less like a grumpyhead and more like someone that knows what their (they're) talking about.

[BikeParkNooB]

Beautiful...loooove rockwork!

[NCMt.Biker]

That rock garden looks too easy!! Looks good though...

[lightjunction]

Super smooth. That rock garden looks good enough to use as a patio. How's it holding up?

[Skookum]

Originally Posted by lightjunction

Super smooth. That rock garden looks good enough to use as a patio. How's it holding up?

Tree fell on it a few months back, one rock took the brunt and imbedded about 6 inches or so. Easy fix.

It's settling a bit, so the undulation varies a bit more than before which i expected since i didn't run a firm base.

Looks good as does the rest of the slalom course, i'll post more stuff on the line soon, we live, breathe and eat this project we've been swimming in for a couple years now, so it'll be pretty fun to reveal more of the project to fellow builders.

[Ridnparadise]

Just out of interest and not related to this rockwork, but what makes you choose exposed rock armouring over embedded rock armouring with a surface that catches silt and becomes buff? I mean which for where - any rules anyone uses in their planning?

[slocaus]

For our soils, embedded lets the whole thing silt over and loose grip, even get slick with winter rains (except this @#$%& year). Slightly raised allows the traffic (boots, hooves, tires) to keep the rock surface and part of the gap between exposed, and therefore, available as a traction aid.

[Ridnparadise]

Cheers slocaus, I can see that. There are places here that are like that at times near and in creek crossings and lower altitude flats. In general, when a base forms it mostly becomes bullet proof over time, so long as it is not mostly made of porous gravelly soil. We add bits of that to the silt and clay/loam that exists in most places, layer it over rocks harvested and press more and more stones in over time (lots after heavy rains, but some whenever it softens and we are there) until a solid base develops from use. This also seems to divert underground water movement where we fill/armour deeply.

From then rain and runoff just flows over a grippy surface. Some surface wear can flow and form soft pockets of silt, usually in gentle depressions where organic matter collects and dams it up, but it is easily cleared by shovel, foot, tire or stick (that doesn't stop everyone just riding by oblivious to the help they could provide whilst they try and bugger up the trail for anyone else when it's too wet to ride).

It doesn't get slick and is resistant to dust when things dry out. This place gets solid rain. We just had 300mm in a week (again - it is a yearly or more common event). The only problem is getting out to all areas when it is really wet and doing the maintenance. Not enough helpers as per.....everywhere.

So we use this approach to armour reverse grades at low points and you use rock to create subtle domes, raised treads and high points. Must be because we are in opposite hemispheres I love trails.

[Skookum]

As per the question, if there is a problem with the final result then you should look to fix the problem. If built up silt is "greasing" up the tread, then you should completely bury it with crushed rock/mineral soil or re-work the rock where it won't have the problem.


As far as rock work, if in your work you "seat" your rocks instead of just piling them in some wet goop and riding over it until it globbed into place. Then if you did that, you should have the skill to wedge the rocks, backfill beneath them with rocks/mineral soil, bump them up a few inches. Perhaps work on choosing better rocks on the bookends and cornerstones that will be heavier and lock everything up, and take the force of the tire impacts, since more surface area will be exposed and ridden on.

What is not pictured in the video is the day(s) i spent "re-seating" the first section of this rock-garden. If you have exposed rocks or pavers you really should put a layer of sand or gravel down about an inch thick to serve as your base. You will get settling over time which will cause undulation and this will minimize or completely eliminate it.

Anyways a couple rocks were broken and needed to be replaced, and many of them were not the desired height. So almost every rock needed to be dislodged, and re-seated. So the first section of rock garden was already complete and ridden on for a few seasons, but it needed to be tweaked, improved.

i always advocate for taking the time to properly seat rocks, which basically means give the rock no gap to wobble at all. Takes time, but whether you are building a rock retention wall or a rock garden it can last a lifetime. If you learn how to do rock work well, it's time consuming, but again it's just so durable you can't go wrong for problem areas with it.

[Downhill mtb kid]

Is this a new trail?

[Skookum]

Originally Posted by Downhill mtb kid

Is this a new trail?

Yes, a 2 year project, here's what the incomplete trail looked like when we wrapped up work for last summer.

Note that both runs i don't pedal or brake.


Deuces Wild Slalom Course Version 1 0 - YouTube

Again, i'll post up some more photos and vids eventually, we're just so busy trying with a deadline with plenty of work left it's a bit tough to do anything but work while i'm out there. But there is an awful lot of goodness to share.